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I Need Help (again)

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  • Tom
    I need a little (or a lot of)advice. I have several sugar washes under my belt using first a LM Reflux unit (difficult to regulate) and the last couple using
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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      I need a little (or a lot of)advice. I have several sugar washes under my belt using first a LM Reflux unit (difficult to regulate) and the last couple using a VM Reflux unit (easy!). I have been getting some very "sweet" product at 95%. My run over the week-end was with the VM Reflux unit but the "wash" was about 29 liters of red wine I made from Merlot grapes a few years ago. Unfortunately, the Merlot developed an off-taste due to some unknown cause as I "fiddled" with the oak, pH, and sulfite so I decided to "run" it. The run progressed as normal. I collected 150 ml foreshots, 200 ml heads, about 3.3 liters of hearts at 95% ABV collected in seven (7) separate containers, and 300 ml tails.

      The product in all the heart containers is similar. The product in each container has an unususl "nose" and a slight, bitter, aftertaste when cut to 40% ABV and sampled. I am considering diluting the whole batch, except the foreshots, to 40% ABV and running it a second time with maybe an addition of baking soda. I have not tried the baking soda addition but I have seen several references to using it at 3 tablespoons per liter of pure alcohol so that'll be about 12 tablespoons for the whole batch.

      Am I on the right track? Should I do something different?

      Thanks,

      Tom
    • jamesonbeam1
      Hi Tom, Yes a second distillation is recommended. However, if your making brandy I would have de-refluxed your still to keep the ABV down. Your percentages
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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        Hi Tom,

        Yes a second distillation is recommended.  However, if your making brandy I would have de-refluxed your still to keep the ABV down.  Your percentages for heads, hearts and tail are a bit off. Usually you can count on at least 15% to 20% heads, same for tails, with about 60% to 70% middle or hearts.

        Throw away your foreshots and run it again with the baking soda.

        JB.

        PS> Regarding the dilution, Harry mentions this:

        Diluting to 27% abv promotes 'hydro-separation'. This process separates out the
        fusel oils and other contaminants. Oils float, solids sink. You draw the next
        still charge from the middle clean portion, using a 'Florentine' setup.

        Here's a few other good reasons to dilute...
        http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Diluting_the_still_charge/


        Slainte!
        regards Harry


        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomhawk412@...> wrote:
        >
        > I need a little (or a lot of)advice. I have several sugar washes under my belt using first a LM Reflux unit (difficult to regulate) and the last couple using a VM Reflux unit (easy!). I have been getting some very "sweet" product at 95%. My run over the week-end was with the VM Reflux unit but the "wash" was about 29 liters of red wine I made from Merlot grapes a few years ago. Unfortunately, the Merlot developed an off-taste due to some unknown cause as I "fiddled" with the oak, pH, and sulfite so I decided to "run" it. The run progressed as normal. I collected 150 ml foreshots, 200 ml heads, about 3.3 liters of hearts at 95% ABV collected in seven (7) separate containers, and 300 ml tails.
        >
        > The product in all the heart containers is similar. The product in each container has an unususl "nose" and a slight, bitter, aftertaste when cut to 40% ABV and sampled. I am considering diluting the whole batch, except the foreshots, to 40% ABV and running it a second time with maybe an addition of baking soda. I have not tried the baking soda addition but I have seen several references to using it at 3 tablespoons per liter of pure alcohol so that'll be about 12 tablespoons for the whole batch.
        >
        > Am I on the right track? Should I do something different?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Tom
        >

      • Tom
        JB, Thanks for the fast response. I was not intending to make brandy; I just wanted to convert the ruined wine to neutral spirit because I was afraid the
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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          JB,

          Thanks for the fast response.

          I was not intending to make brandy; I just wanted to convert the ruined wine to neutral spirit because I was afraid the "tainted" wine would give me an off flavor if I tried for brandy. Although the answer may be obvious to the more experienced, I just don't understand why the off-smell and the bitterness carried over. The output was crystal clear and 95+ % ABV.

          Regarding the cuts, I presently have the output in separate containers. I just never got any "clean" smelling stuff so I kept the collections to small volume. They are still separated. I guess I'll dump everything together, except the foreshots, and dilute it to the magic 27%. How long does it need to sit for the hydro separation to take place? Once separated and the middle third is pulled out for the rerun, should I keep the remaining diluent or pitch it?

          Is there anything I could have done to keep the bitterness and the bad smell out of the product? I ran my still at 677 watts (after the initial heat up using 3,000 watts). I held at full reflux for one (1) hour, pulled the foreshots and heads from my reflux path at one (1) drop per second and then started collecting the hearts via my VM path at a temperature that ranged between 173.3 and 174.2 degrees Fahrenheit with a constant out put of 45 drops per 15 second (400 ml/hr). When the temperature started to climb, I closed the VM valve, switched back to the reflux path, opened the reflux outlet valve 100% and collected the tails. I spent roughly 12 hours making the run.

          The good news is that this "art" is absolutely fascinating! As with most things, there's a learning curve but the journey has been, and is, great!

          Thanks for your help.

          Cheers,

          Tom


          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Tom,
          >
          > Yes a second distillation is recommended.

          SNIP

          > Throw away your foreshots and run it again with the baking soda.
          >
          > JB.
          >
          > PS> Regarding the dilution, Harry mentions this:
          >
          > Diluting to 27% abv promotes 'hydro-separation'. This process separates
          > out the
          > fusel oils and other contaminants. Oils float, solids sink. You draw the
          > next
          > still charge from the middle clean portion, using a 'Florentine' setup.
          >
          > Here's a few other good reasons to dilute...
          > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Diluting_the_still_charge/
          > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Diluting_the_still_charge/>
          >
          >
          > Slainte!
          > regards Harry
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomhawk412@> wrote:
          > >
          > > SNIP

          My run over the week-end was with the VM Reflux unit but the "wash" was about 29 liters of red wine I made from Merlot grapes a few years ago. Unfortunately, the Merlot developed an off-taste due to some unknown cause

          SNIP

          The product in all the heart containers is similar. The product in each container has an unususl "nose" and a slight, bitter, aftertaste when cut to 40% ABV and sampled. I am considering diluting the whole batch, except the foreshots, to 40% ABV and running it a second time with maybe an addition of baking soda.

          SNIP> >
          > > Am I on the right track? Should I do something different?
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > >
          > > Tom
          > >
          >
        • tgfoitwoods
          Tom, Comments inline. Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller ... ruined wine to neutral spirit because I was afraid the tainted wine would give me an off flavor if
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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            Tom,

            Comments inline.

            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomhawk412@...> wrote:
            >
            > JB,
            >
            > Thanks for the fast response.
            >
            > I was not intending to make brandy; I just wanted to convert the ruined wine to neutral spirit because I was afraid the "tainted" wine would give me an off flavor if I tried for brandy. Although the answer may be obvious to the more experienced, I just don't understand why the off-smell and the bitterness carried over. The output was crystal clear and 95+ % ABV.

            Because of the high ABV and the fact that your center fractions all tasted identical, I'd guess that your equipment and technique are pretty good, which make the off smell and bitterness confusing to me, partly because the worst wine I've ever distilled (except one notable example, a watermelon wine) made a great-tasting brandy.
            >
            > Regarding the cuts, I presently have the output in separate containers. I just never got any "clean" smelling stuff so I kept the collections to small volume. They are still separated. I guess I'll dump everything together, except the foreshots, and dilute it to the magic 27%. How long does it need to sit for the hydro separation to take place? Once separated and the middle third is pulled out for the rerun, should I keep the remaining diluent or pitch it?

            The collection of small samples during distillation is an old potstillers' technique, and should have no value in a reflux run, since all those fractions should be identical.
            >
            > Is there anything I could have done to keep the bitterness and the bad smell out of the product? I ran my still at 677 watts (after the initial heat up using 3,000 watts). I held at full reflux for one (1) hour, pulled the foreshots and heads from my reflux path at one (1) drop per second and then started collecting the hearts via my VM path at a temperature that ranged between 173.3 and 174.2 degrees Fahrenheit with a constant out put of 45 drops per 15 second (400 ml/hr). When the temperature started to climb, I closed the VM valve, switched back to the reflux path, opened the reflux outlet valve 100% and collected the tails. I spent roughly 12 hours making the run.

            Since a reflux run should strip most of the flavor, good or bad, from the distillate, I have to assume there was something terrible and unusual in that wine, and the tiny bit of it that got through gave you the bad taste. OOH! A thought...was this the first run on new hardware? Is there any chance some flux or other bad stuff was left in your still head? Did you clean with steam, water and vinegar before the first use?

            ..And Waldo's right about redistilling with bicarbonate. If it's wine flavors, they'll be mostly esters, and the bicarb will kill them.  If there's still bad stuff in your still, you'll see more of that bad flavor. Re-distilling with bicarb is a good test.

            >
            > The good news is that this "art" is absolutely fascinating! As with most things, there's a learning curve but the journey has been, and is, great!
            >
            > Thanks for your help.
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            > Tom
            >
            >
            ----snip----
          • Tom
            Z Bob, Thanks for your input. You asked if this was a first run with new equipment. No. It was the third run. The two (2) prior runs were JEM (Jim s Energy
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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              Z Bob,

              Thanks for your input. You asked if this was a first run with new equipment. No. It was the third run. The two (2) prior runs were JEM (Jim's Energy Miracle Gro) sugar washes. The first one turned out great. The second one started out great. It was a double batch. I stopped mid-way and resumed the following day. For some reason I got blue product on the second day. I treated it with citric acid and will re-run that portion of the output. Following that run, I completely dismantled the still, cleaned it with Five Star Star-San followed by vinegar/water at a ratio of 1 part vinegar to 3 parts water. The system was clean when I ran the wine through it.

              I'm going to dilute the neutral that I collected from the wine and re-run it.

              Thanks for your help.

              Cheers,

              Tom




              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
              >
              > Tom,
              >
              > Comments inline.
              >
              > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
              >
              > SNIP
            • tgfoitwoods
              Wow, Tom, I m completely bum-foozled. The only thing I can say with any confidence at all is: blue product usually means high pH along with lots of nitrogen
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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                Wow, Tom,

                I'm completely bum-foozled. The only thing I can say with any confidence
                at all is: blue product usually means high pH along with lots of
                nitrogen compounds, so that Schweizer's reagent, an ammonium-copper
                complex, is formed. I don't think that ever happens with a normal acidic
                wash. Usually, it's from adding bicarb to a wash with yeast nutrients in
                it. In case I really need to say it, bicarb only belongs in once-(or
                more) distilled washes.

                As for the rest, I know and use Star-San, and can't see how that
                connects to bad-flavored wine distillate.

                Sorry. Anyone else out there got a clue?
                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomhawk412@...> wrote:
                >
                > Z Bob,
                >
                > Thanks for your input. You asked if this was a first run with new
                equipment. No. It was the third run. The two (2) prior runs were JEM
                (Jim's Energy Miracle Gro) sugar washes. The first one turned out
                great. The second one started out great. It was a double batch. I
                stopped mid-way and resumed the following day. For some reason I got
                blue product on the second day. I treated it with citric acid and will
                re-run that portion of the output. Following that run, I completely
                dismantled the still, cleaned it with Five Star Star-San followed by
                vinegar/water at a ratio of 1 part vinegar to 3 parts water. The system
                was clean when I ran the wine through it.
                >
                > I'm going to dilute the neutral that I collected from the wine and
                re-run it.
                >
                > Thanks for your help.
                >
                > Cheers,
                >
                > Tom
                >
                ----snip----
              • jamesonbeam1
                Hi Tom, Sorry, been away playing with my new toy. Its an 84 cup commercial coffee maker that was thown away (looked like it was burnt out by running dry), but
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                  Hi Tom,

                  Sorry, been away playing with my new toy. Its an 84 cup commercial
                  coffee maker that was thown away (looked like it was burnt out by
                  running dry), but was easy to fix with some new wiring. By overridding
                  the brewing controls, It makes a really nice boiler and by just
                  unscrewing the top glass part to watch the coffee brewing and putting in
                  new wash while draining the backset out from the bottom spigot, its
                  almost like a continuous distiller. Works great for stripping runs.

                  Anyways, not having tasted your product, Im guessing that all the
                  playing around you did with your wine and not using the correct
                  percentages for heads and tails probably added to the strange "nose" and
                  flavors.

                  Redistilling should correct the problem. And yes, as ZB mentioned, blue
                  distillate is definitly caused by adding too much ammonium based
                  nitrogen (in the JEM case - too much plant food). Be a bit more
                  consevative next time.

                  JB.


                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Wow, Tom,
                  >
                  > I'm completely bum-foozled. The only thing I can say with any
                  confidence
                  > at all is: blue product usually means high pH along with lots of
                  > nitrogen compounds, so that Schweizer's reagent, an ammonium-copper
                  > complex, is formed. I don't think that ever happens with a normal
                  acidic
                  > wash. Usually, it's from adding bicarb to a wash with yeast nutrients
                  in
                  > it. In case I really need to say it, bicarb only belongs in once-(or
                  > more) distilled washes.
                  >
                  > As for the rest, I know and use Star-San, and can't see how that
                  > connects to bad-flavored wine distillate.
                  >
                  > Sorry. Anyone else out there got a clue?
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" tomhawk412@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Z Bob,
                • Tom
                  JB, Thanks for the help. I m still confused about the nose of the output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should be as good as it
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                    JB,

                    Thanks for the help. I'm still confused about the "nose" of the output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should be as good as it gets and all fractions have the same "nose" and bitter after taste.

                    As soon as I have an oportunity, I'm going to redistill it.

                    The "blue" distillate from the previous run is still a mystery too as the first day's out pout was very nice. I shut down and resumed the next day (it was a double batch - 10 gallons, total) and the output on the second day was blue. I changed nothing.

                    In any event, I'm learning and enjoying every twist and turn!

                    Cheers,

                    Tom


                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Tom,
                    >
                    > Sorry, been away playing with my new toy. Its an 84 cup commercial
                    > coffee maker that was thown away (looked like it was burnt out by
                    > running dry), but was easy to fix with some new wiring. By overridding
                    > the brewing controls, It makes a really nice boiler and by just
                    > unscrewing the top glass part to watch the coffee brewing and putting in
                    > new wash while draining the backset out from the bottom spigot, its
                    > almost like a continuous distiller. Works great for stripping runs.
                    >
                    > Anyways, not having tasted your product, Im guessing that all the
                    > playing around you did with your wine and not using the correct
                    > percentages for heads and tails probably added to the strange "nose" and
                    > flavors.
                    >
                    > Redistilling should correct the problem. And yes, as ZB mentioned, blue
                    > distillate is definitly caused by adding too much ammonium based
                    > nitrogen (in the JEM case - too much plant food). Be a bit more
                    > consevative next time.
                    >
                    > JB.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Wow, Tom,
                    > >
                    > > I'm completely bum-foozled. The only thing I can say with any
                    > confidence
                    > > at all is: blue product usually means high pH along with lots of
                    > > nitrogen compounds, so that Schweizer's reagent, an ammonium-copper
                    > > complex, is formed. I don't think that ever happens with a normal
                    > acidic
                    > > wash. Usually, it's from adding bicarb to a wash with yeast nutrients
                    > in
                    > > it. In case I really need to say it, bicarb only belongs in once-(or
                    > > more) distilled washes.
                    > >
                    > > As for the rest, I know and use Star-San, and can't see how that
                    > > connects to bad-flavored wine distillate.
                    > >
                    > > Sorry. Anyone else out there got a clue?
                    > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" tomhawk412@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Z Bob,
                    >
                  • jamesonbeam1
                    Tom, YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of people producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the next day. What
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                      Tom,

                      YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of people
                      producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the next
                      day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that ammoium
                      based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause this
                      chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
                      complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and rinse
                      out well before restarting.

                      JB.


                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomhawk412@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > JB,
                      >
                      > Thanks for the help. I'm still confused about the "nose" of the
                      output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should
                      be as good as it gets and all fractions have the same "nose" and bitter
                      after taste.
                      >
                      > As soon as I have an oportunity, I'm going to redistill it.
                      >
                      > The "blue" distillate from the previous run is still a mystery too as
                      the first day's out pout was very nice. I shut down and resumed the next
                      day (it was a double batch - 10 gallons, total) and the output on the
                      second day was blue. I changed nothing.
                      >
                      > In any event, I'm learning and enjoying every twist and turn!
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      >
                      > Tom
                    • tgfoitwoods
                      Interesting, Waldo, I ve never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember the
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                        Interesting, Waldo,

                        I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
                        interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember the
                        chemistry correctly, Schweizer's reagent is only formed at all if the
                        wash is basic. If Tom has to halt his runs very often, maybe dropping
                        the wash pH to, say, 5, would allow him to avoid "feeling blue" even
                        with an interrupted run.

                        Have you ever tested the pH of your JEM wash?

                        I'm still stumped by the offensive nose.

                        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller


                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Tom,
                        >
                        > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of people
                        > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the next
                        > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that
                        ammoium
                        > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause
                        this
                        > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
                        > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and rinse
                        > out well before restarting.
                        >
                        > JB.
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" tomhawk412@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > JB,
                        > >
                        > > Thanks for the help. I'm still confused about the "nose" of the
                        > output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should
                        > be as good as it gets and all fractions have the same "nose" and
                        bitter
                        > after taste.
                        > >
                        > > As soon as I have an oportunity, I'm going to redistill it.
                        > >
                        > > The "blue" distillate from the previous run is still a mystery too
                        as
                        > the first day's out pout was very nice. I shut down and resumed the
                        next
                        > day (it was a double batch - 10 gallons, total) and the output on the
                        > second day was blue. I changed nothing.
                        > >
                        > > In any event, I'm learning and enjoying every twist and turn!
                        > >
                        > > Cheers,
                        > >
                        > > Tom
                        >
                      • Tom
                        JB, Now, that makes sense! I chose to shut down in situ based on a comment in Nixon & McCaw s The Compleat Distiller that a run can be interrupted and
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                          JB,

                          Now, that makes sense! I chose to shut down in situ based on a comment in Nixon & McCaw's "The Compleat Distiller" that a run can be interrupted and resumed later with no ill effects and no need to collect foreshots or heads following the resumption as they had been collected earlier. Based on your information, and my recent experience, I will always complete a run.

                          Cheers,

                          Tom

                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Tom,
                          >
                          > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of people
                          > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the next
                          > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that ammoium
                          > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause this
                          > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
                          > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and rinse
                          > out well before restarting.
                          >
                          > JB.
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Tom" <tomhawk412@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > JB,
                          > >
                          > > Thanks for the help. I'm still confused about the "nose" of the
                          > output. Even if I got the cuts wrtong, the middle of the middle should
                          > be as good as it gets and all fractions have the same "nose" and bitter
                          > after taste.
                          > >
                          > > As soon as I have an oportunity, I'm going to redistill it.
                          > >
                          > > The "blue" distillate from the previous run is still a mystery too as
                          > the first day's out pout was very nice. I shut down and resumed the next
                          > day (it was a double batch - 10 gallons, total) and the output on the
                          > second day was blue. I changed nothing.
                          > >
                          > > In any event, I'm learning and enjoying every twist and turn!
                          > >
                          > > Cheers,
                          > >
                          > > Tom
                          >
                        • jamesonbeam1
                          Welp ZB, Again, Im just guessing that something in the wine might have caused those odors if Tom s still was clean. As far as the pH of a JEM wash, if he had
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                            Welp ZB,

                            Again, Im just guessing that something in the wine might have caused
                            those odors if Tom's still was clean.

                            As far as the pH of a JEM wash, if he had followed the directions and
                            added lemon juice whilst inverting the sugars, it would have come out
                            around a 5.4 to 5.8 pH which would have dropped even more during
                            fermentation. Remember in Mason's MUM wash, he uses tomato paste to
                            accomplish that.

                            But it does seem strange that several members over the past several
                            years seem to be getting blue distillate when re-starting a distillation
                            the next day. The only execption I remember was when a newbie tried to
                            use about 1.4 grams of DAP per liter of fermentation which of course
                            caused Schweizer's reagent. *note - that would be almost an ounce of
                            DAP in a 5 gallon wash lol. Also if Tom used the correct amount of
                            plant food, it should not have caused that reaction in a single run, but
                            if left overnight - there might have been enough time for the reaction
                            to take place from the vapors and liquids left in the head.

                            JB.




                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Interesting, Waldo,
                            >
                            > I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
                            > interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember
                            the
                            > chemistry correctly, Schweizer's reagent is only formed at all if the
                            > wash is basic. If Tom has to halt his runs very often, maybe dropping
                            > the wash pH to, say, 5, would allow him to avoid "feeling blue" even
                            > with an interrupted run.
                            >
                            > Have you ever tested the pH of your JEM wash?
                            >
                            > I'm still stumped by the offensive nose.
                            >
                            > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Tom,
                            > >
                            > > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of
                            people
                            > > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the
                            next
                            > > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that
                            > ammoium
                            > > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause
                            > this
                            > > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
                            > > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and
                            rinse
                            > > out well before restarting.
                            > >
                            > > JB.
                          • jamesonbeam1
                            Perhaps a New Golden Rule ZB.... Tis not a good thing to interrtuptus a distillus or coitus??? [;)] JB. aka Waldo aka The Ornery One. ... wrote:
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                              Perhaps a New Golden Rule ZB....

                              Tis not a good thing to interrtuptus a distillus or coitus???  ;)

                              JB.  aka Waldo aka The Ornery One.


                               --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" zymurgybob@
                               wrote:

                               Interesting, Waldo,

                              I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
                               interruptus?)

                              ___snip

                            • Robert Hubble
                              Waldo, A great rule!!! Either one will make you even ornerier! Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com From: jamesonbeam1@yahoo.com
                              Message 14 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                                Waldo,

                                A great rule!!! Either one will make you even ornerier!

                                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller




                                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                From: jamesonbeam1@...
                                Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 15:42:46 +0000
                                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: I Need Help (again)

                                 

                                Perhaps a New Golden Rule ZB....
                                Tis not a good thing to interrtuptus a distillus or coitus???  ;)
                                JB.  aka Waldo aka The Ornery One.


                                ___snip

                              • Tom
                                JB, I did follow the instructions and add lemmon juice during the sugar conversion. I just checked my log book (indespensible) and can report the following:
                                Message 15 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                                  JB,

                                  I did follow the instructions and add lemmon juice during the sugar conversion. I just checked my log book (indespensible) and can report the following: The initial pH of wash #1 was 5.12 and #2 was 5.30. I corrected the pH during fermentation on a daily basis to maintain 4.0 to 4.5 by adding potassium bicarbonate. When batch #1 (5 gallons) was finished its pH was 4.45 with a SPG of 0.992; the pH of batch #2 (5 gallons) was 4.77 and the SPG was 0.993. The first day's product (both batches were combined for one run) was sweeeeeet! The second day's product (after I had to shut down overnight) was blue!

                                  From now on, I'll never interrupt a run.

                                  Cheers,

                                  Tom

                                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Welp ZB,
                                  >
                                  > Again, Im just guessing that something in the wine might have caused
                                  > those odors if Tom's still was clean.
                                  >
                                  > As far as the pH of a JEM wash, if he had followed the directions and
                                  > added lemon juice whilst inverting the sugars, it would have come out
                                  > around a 5.4 to 5.8 pH which would have dropped even more during
                                  > fermentation. Remember in Mason's MUM wash, he uses tomato paste to
                                  > accomplish that.
                                  >
                                  > But it does seem strange that several members over the past several
                                  > years seem to be getting blue distillate when re-starting a distillation
                                  > the next day. The only execption I remember was when a newbie tried to
                                  > use about 1.4 grams of DAP per liter of fermentation which of course
                                  > caused Schweizer's reagent. *note - that would be almost an ounce of
                                  > DAP in a 5 gallon wash lol. Also if Tom used the correct amount of
                                  > plant food, it should not have caused that reaction in a single run, but
                                  > if left overnight - there might have been enough time for the reaction
                                  > to take place from the vapors and liquids left in the head.
                                  >
                                  > JB.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Interesting, Waldo,
                                  > >
                                  > > I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
                                  > > interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember
                                  > the
                                  > > chemistry correctly, Schweizer's reagent is only formed at all if the
                                  > > wash is basic. If Tom has to halt his runs very often, maybe dropping
                                  > > the wash pH to, say, 5, would allow him to avoid "feeling blue" even
                                  > > with an interrupted run.
                                  > >
                                  > > Have you ever tested the pH of your JEM wash?
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm still stumped by the offensive nose.
                                  > >
                                  > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Tom,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of
                                  > people
                                  > > > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the
                                  > next
                                  > > > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that
                                  > > ammoium
                                  > > > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause
                                  > > this
                                  > > > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
                                  > > > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and
                                  > rinse
                                  > > > out well before restarting.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > JB.
                                  >
                                • Rainero Morgia
                                  blue distillates  can  only  result  from  the  reaction   of  copper  and  ammonia  gas...yeasts, nutrients, DAPs,sulfites,  normally 
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                                    blue distillates  can  only  result  from  the  reaction   of  copper  and  ammonia  gas...yeasts, nutrients, DAPs,sulfites,  normally  contain  ammonium  salts  and  are  quite  stable  when  pH is  below 4.5...but  as  it  approaches  neutral  it readily becomes gas....others  claim  that  you will actually start  getting  ammonia  gas  at  pH  of  4.75 and  above...  this  gas  will react  and  corrode  the  copper  resulting  to  a  blue color.... as  a  rule  of  thumb   add  your  potassium  bicarbonate   on  a  stripped  wash  and  never  on   primary  fermentation  as  potassium  bicarbonate  will raise  your  pH  and  might  corrode  the  copper....
                                    pH  adjustment  or  buffering  is  hard  to  master  and  its  not  merely  pH  paper or pH meter  or  adding  alkali or acid....especiallly  for  new  distillers  like  us.
                                     
                                    rainer

                                    --- On Thu, 8/5/10, Tom <tomhawk412@...> wrote:

                                    From: Tom <tomhawk412@...>
                                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: I Need Help (again)
                                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Thursday, August 5, 2010, 1:41 AM

                                     
                                    JB,

                                    I did follow the instructions and add lemmon juice during the sugar conversion. I just checked my log book (indespensible) and can report the following: The initial pH of wash #1 was 5.12 and #2 was 5.30. I corrected the pH during fermentation on a daily basis to maintain 4.0 to 4.5 by adding potassium bicarbonate. When batch #1 (5 gallons) was finished its pH was 4.45 with a SPG of 0.992; the pH of batch #2 (5 gallons) was 4.77 and the SPG was 0.993. The first day's product (both batches were combined for one run) was sweeeeeet! The second day's product (after I had to shut down overnight) was blue!

                                    From now on, I'll never interrupt a run.

                                    Cheers,

                                    Tom

                                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Welp ZB,
                                    >
                                    > Again, Im just guessing that something in the wine might have caused
                                    > those odors if Tom's still was clean.
                                    >
                                    > As far as the pH of a JEM wash, if he had followed the directions and
                                    > added lemon juice whilst inverting the sugars, it would have come out
                                    > around a 5.4 to 5.8 pH which would have dropped even more during
                                    > fermentation. Remember in Mason's MUM wash, he uses tomato paste to
                                    > accomplish that.
                                    >
                                    > But it does seem strange that several members over the past several
                                    > years seem to be getting blue distillate when re-starting a distillation
                                    > the next day. The only execption I remember was when a newbie tried to
                                    > use about 1.4 grams of DAP per liter of fermentation which of course
                                    > caused Schweizer's reagent. *note - that would be almost an ounce of
                                    > DAP in a 5 gallon wash lol. Also if Tom used the correct amount of
                                    > plant food, it should not have caused that reaction in a single run, but
                                    > if left overnight - there might have been enough time for the reaction
                                    > to take place from the vapors and liquids left in the head.
                                    >
                                    > JB.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Interesting, Waldo,
                                    > >
                                    > > I've never heard the part about interrupted runs (distillus
                                    > > interruptus?) and the blue ookies, but it makes sense. If I remember
                                    > the
                                    > > chemistry correctly, Schweizer's reagent is only formed at all if the
                                    > > wash is basic. If Tom has to halt his runs very often, maybe dropping
                                    > > the wash pH to, say, 5, would allow him to avoid "feeling blue" even
                                    > > with an interrupted run.
                                    > >
                                    > > Have you ever tested the pH of your JEM wash?
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm still stumped by the offensive nose.
                                    > >
                                    > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
                                    > > wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Tom,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > YWV. However, this is the second or third time I have heard of
                                    > people
                                    > > > producing blue distillate after shutting down and restarting the
                                    > next
                                    > > > day. What happens is that any vapors and liquid, rich in that
                                    > > ammoium
                                    > > > based nitrogen with sit in the copper parts of your still and cause
                                    > > this
                                    > > > chemical reaction over that time period. Tis always better to do a
                                    > > > complete run thru or if you have to stop, take the head off and
                                    > rinse
                                    > > > out well before restarting.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > JB.
                                    >


                                  • Tom
                                    Rainer, Thanks for the information. I was adding Potassium bicarbonate to the wort as it progressed through fermentation because the pH was dropping like a
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Aug 5, 2010
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                                      Rainer,

                                      Thanks for the information. I was adding Potassium bicarbonate to the wort as it progressed through fermentation because the pH was dropping like a stone. I was afraid that the yeast would die due to the increased acidity.

                                      Tom

                                      SNIP
                                    • mav
                                      Tom, There is your problem, don t add Bicarb to your wash. If you do, well, you now know what happens. In other words, set the ideal starting Ph and don t
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Aug 7, 2010
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                                        Tom,

                                        There is your problem, don't add Bicarb to your wash. If you do, well, you now know what happens.

                                        In other words, set the ideal starting Ph and don't fool with it.

                                        __________________________________________________
                                        I was adding Potassium bicarbonate to the wort as
                                        it progressed through fermentation
                                        _________________________________________________:->


                                        Cheers
                                        Marc

                                        Ps. Im sure Harry spoken about the over use of buffers?
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