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Re: [new_distillers]45gall cider

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  • John Vandermeulen
    Hi ups, I don t have any records on that - just bought and paid. However, I did put up a lot and eventually distilled it all down to spirits. Apple cider is
    Message 1 of 6 , May 1, 2002
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      Hi ups,
      I don't have any records on that - just bought and paid. However, I did put
      up a lot and eventually distilled it all down to spirits. Apple cider is not
      that straight forward as it has two fermentations - one is the usual
      sugar-to-alcohol, the second is the malo-lactic conversion. My mash was
      extremely mouth-puckering tart, apparently due to buildup of the malic acid.
      When I checked with the cider-fans on the web I learned that ML conversion is
      a happen-stance thing, it may or may not occur, it may occur when the temp
      drops, or it may or many not occur in the early spring - etc. No one talked
      about ML-bacterial additives. I finally chucked it all into the kettle and
      distilled it. It was very disappointing, as I had looked forward to a nice
      sparkling hard apple wine.
      John V

      ups474@... wrote:

      > - I'm planning on making massive amounts of cider this fall- how much did
      > your 45 gallons cost you, JohnV?
      > -ups474@...
      >
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    • ups474@aol.com
      Actually- malo-lactic fermentation can be induced. Lalvin makes a small expensive packet of the culture (it s $US12.95 for two grams- enough for 50 gallons or
      Message 2 of 6 , May 1, 2002
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        Actually- malo-lactic fermentation can be induced. Lalvin makes a small
        expensive packet of the culture (it's $US12.95 for two grams- enough for 50
        gallons or so.)
        Malo lactic bacteria are really picky, that is the problem. It doesn't like
        high alcohol- with cider that shouldn't be a problem. It hates sulfites-
        even 25ppm free sulfite will kill it- total sulfite over 100ppm- even if none
        of it is free, will also kill ML bacteria. It also isn't fond of low
        temperatures- they prefer to work in a wine at 75 to 80F. The last condition
        is low Ph. It works in red wines at a Ph of 3.3 or more, and white wine at a
        Ph of 3.1 or more. You can get by with any one of the above conditions not
        being right- but if more than one is wrong- it won't work. It also helps to
        use yeast ENERGIZER type of nutrient (the kind made out of dead yeast, NOT
        the chemical- they don't use diammonium phosphate.) Do a cool ferment, with
        no sulfite, then raise the temp to 75-80F, check the Ph (adjusting it as
        needed), and some yeast extract nutrient, and stir the lees and nutrients up
        from the bottom of the fermenter once or twice a week. For a sweet cider-
        you could also try the French cider method. The sweet cider from the grocery
        store works with this method- it has no sulfite in it- it's heat/UV
        pasteurized. For every 100Liters of juice, add 30grams of calcium carbonate,
        and 40grams of table salt along with the yeast. The salt and carbonate will
        cause the juice pectin to thicken, and form a brown cap (held up by the CO2
        from the ferment). After about 8 days, there should be a solid brown layer
        on top, and a sediment layer on the bottom, siphon the cider out from between
        these two layers- it should be very clear. This procedure should take place
        at no more than 60F (ideally between 50 and 55F). The forming of the brown
        pectin layer will have stripped alot of the nitrogen based natural yeast
        nutrient from the juice- this, along with the (continued) cool ferment at 50
        to 55F, will slow the yeast way down- more than likely, the yeast will give
        up before all the sugar is consumed due to a lack of nutrient (a purposely
        induced stuck ferment)- this will give a naturally sweet cider that has a
        great flavor and aroma- becuase a hot, fast ferment hasn't driven off the
        delicate flavors. You can also just ferment out a normal cider with no
        special treatment, bottle it like beer- when it's totally dry- then, when you
        want a drink, take a gallon of fresh, unfermented sweet cider, and slowly
        cook it in a double boiler until it is reduced to one fifth it's original
        volume (for a gallon- this is less than a quart). You can store this apple
        concentrate in a squeeze bottle, in the fridge. When you want a sweet,
        sparkling, hard cider, just put a splash of the concentrate to your glass,
        and pour the hard cider out of the glass onto it- instant sweet and hard,
        sparkling cider! Also- I have found that about a half ounce of French oak
        chips (raw- untoasted) per gallon of cider, added with the yeast and left
        throughout the ferment/aging, REALLY adds something to the ordinary hard,
        champagne like cider you normally get by just tossing yeast into a jug of the
        sweet juice. I Just add enough vodka to cover the wood chips, let them sit
        for 30 minutes, then add them with the yeast to the juice. Hopefully this
        long e-mail will help someone this next fall- I gotta go brew some beer.
        (Bavarian Helles, to be exact). -Cheers!
      • John Vandermeulen
        So, where were you why I needed you most - last fall crushing a ton of apples, made into some of the most expensive vinegar available. Thanks for the info, I
        Message 3 of 6 , May 1, 2002
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          So, where were you why I needed you most - last fall crushing a ton of apples,
          made into some of the most expensive vinegar available.
          Thanks for the info, I may just try it all over again,
          John V
        • ups474@aol.com
          It might be more expensive- but instead of milling your own apples just call ahead and have the people running the orchard prepare the juice for you ahead of
          Message 4 of 6 , May 1, 2002
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            It might be more expensive- but instead of milling your own apples just call
            ahead and have the people running the orchard prepare the juice for you ahead
            of time. By the way- do you know what type of apple you were using?- I've
            been trying to find Kingstong Black apples for 2 years- it's a very old cider
            apple from England- I'm starting to think no one grows it anymore. Another
            hint: When crushed, cider apples (as well as wild and crab apples) tend to
            produce a more granular, dry pulp than dessert types, which, when ground,
            look like a soupy applesauce. As to my whereabouts last fall- I don't
            remember- I think that the memory loss has something to do with a batch of
            apple-jack (freeze concentrated cider), and a batch of banana champagne that
            were blended last year at the begining of the apple harvest season.
          • Rev. David M Cunningham
            Message 5 of 6 , May 1, 2002
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              << My mash was extremely mouth-puckering tart, apparently due to buildup of
              the malic acid . . . It was very disappointing, as I had looked forward to a
              nice sparkling hard apple wine. >>

              Well, another reason for the tart flavor can be from the fact that cider is
              made with tart apples whereas "traditional" apple wine is made with sweeter
              apples. The result of cider fermented out to wine levels will afford a tart
              tasting wine.

              Your Brother in Spirit,
              Rev. David M. Cunningham
              distiller@...

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            • John Vandermeulen
              ... I used a wide variety of apples, whatever was available at the time. Nova Scotia has extensive apple orchards - except of course that they are all
              Message 6 of 6 , May 2, 2002
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                > By the way- do you know what type of apple you were using?-

                I used a wide variety of apples, whatever was available at the time. Nova Scotia
                has extensive apple orchards - except of course that they are all
                eating/pie/juice apples - sorry , no Kingston Black.I did find some suppliers of
                some of the English/Normandy plants/scions through out the US, also one in B.C.
                near Vancouver - on the web.

                > I've
                > been trying to find Kingstong Black apples for 2 years- it's a very old cider
                > apple from England- I'm starting to think no one grows it anymore. Another
                > hint: When crushed, cider apples (as well as wild and crab apples) tend to
                > produce a more granular, dry pulp than dessert types, which, when ground,
                > look like a soupy applesauce. As to my whereabouts last fall- I don't
                > remember- I think that the memory loss has something to do with a batch of
                > apple-jack (freeze concentrated cider),

                I do think that I will have another go at this cider thing, but for pot
                distilling. I can make ca. 23L at a time - ferment it, and pot distill. My
                potstill column seems to like producing 50-55%abv, so if I distill it once and
                collect down to 40%abv, that should yield an apple-y spirit. I think that I will
                get myself a few litres of apple juice and experiment.John V

                > and a batch of banana champagne that
                > were blended last year at the begining of the apple harvest season.
                >
                >
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                > new_distillers-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                >
                >
                >
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