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Re: Fermenting on grains

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  • jamesonbeam1
    Hello J, And welcome aboard... I too as a wine maker was at first taken back a bit when reading about and learning some of the lack of sanitary techniques in
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 23, 2009
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      Hello J,

      And welcome aboard...  I too as a wine maker was at first taken back a bit when reading about and learning some of the lack of sanitary techniques in this art of distilling.

      However, as you will soon understand,  its not the fermentations we are drinking...  Its the vapors from boiling the fermentations which are condensed into the "aqua vitae" we are seeking.

      Wine makers and brewers are very concerned about sanitary conditions, since their end products are fermented longer and kept in bottles, then drunk.  Any small amounts of bacteria in them will quickly multiply and distroy those products.

      In our hobby, it is necessary to keep your untensils clean and the fermentation covered and away from bacteria (especially the kind that produces vinegar).  However, due to the short fermentation times (usually less then a week to 2 weeks), any bacteria does not have time to build up.  In the next step - distillation, the boiling of the fermentation will immediately kill off any remaining bad boys and they definitly will not come out in the vapors we condense.

      If you really want to get freaked out, check out the process of making dunder for rum and look at some of the pictures we have around here ;).  Believe me, some of stuff I would'nt even consider using, but they say it adds to the flavors.

      Good luck and above all - Be Safe.

      Vino es Veritas,

      Jim aka Waldo.


      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "j_klinck" <j_klinck@...> wrote:
      >
      > I have been doing some reading about fermenting on grains (whiskey mash) and have a few question. I'm a homebrewer of many years and am very familiar with creating sanitary fermentation conditions. The whole idea of making a mash, letting it cool and then just pitching the yeast into it kind of freaks me out. Is there anything you do to keep the bugs from taking over and screwing up your fermentation?
      >

    • waljaco
      Apparently some of the bacteria produce enzymes that help in converting grain starch to sugars! Commercial enzymes are also produced from bacteria and fungi.
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 23, 2009
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        Apparently some of the bacteria produce enzymes that help in converting grain starch to sugars!
        Commercial enzymes are also produced from bacteria and fungi.
        wal

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hello J,
        >
        > And welcome aboard... I too as a wine maker was at first taken back a
        > bit when reading about and learning some of the lack of sanitary
        > techniques in this art of distilling.
        >
        > However, as you will soon understand, its not the fermentations we are
        > drinking... Its the vapors from boiling the fermentations which are
        > condensed into the "aqua vitae" we are seeking.
        >
        > Wine makers and brewers are very concerned about sanitary conditions,
        > since their end products are fermented longer and kept in bottles, then
        > drunk. Any small amounts of bacteria in them will quickly multiply and
        > distroy those products.
        >
        > In our hobby, it is necessary to keep your untensils clean and the
        > fermentation covered and away from bacteria (especially the kind that
        > produces vinegar). However, due to the short fermentation times
        > (usually less then a week to 2 weeks), any bacteria does not have time
        > to build up. In the next step - distillation, the boiling of the
        > fermentation will immediately kill off any remaining bad boys and they
        > definitly will not come out in the vapors we condense.
        >
        > If you really want to get freaked out, check out the process of making
        > dunder for rum and look at some of the pictures we have around here
        > [;)] . Believe me, some of stuff I would'nt even consider using, but
        > they say it adds to the flavors.
        >
        > Good luck and above all - Be Safe.
        >
        > Vino es Veritas,
        >
        > Jim aka Waldo.
        >
        >
        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "j_klinck" <j_klinck@> wrote:
        > >
        > > I have been doing some reading about fermenting on grains (whiskey
        > mash) and have a few question. I'm a homebrewer of many years and am
        > very familiar with creating sanitary fermentation conditions. The whole
        > idea of making a mash, letting it cool and then just pitching the yeast
        > into it kind of freaks me out. Is there anything you do to keep the bugs
        > from taking over and screwing up your fermentation?
        > >
        >
      • jamesonbeam1
        Your 100% Correct J, The pasturization temp of 161 F is below the optimal temps for alpha amylase (162 F to 167 F) and does the job of killing off the wild
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 24, 2009
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          Your 100% Correct J,

          The pasturization temp of 161 F is below the optimal temps for alpha amylase (162 F to 167 F) and does the job of killing off the wild yeasts and bacteria on grains very well.

          However, there are several recipes around here that require the fermentation on grains with absolutly no heating at all,  believe it or not.  One of the more famous sourmash procedures is is called "Uncle Jesse's Simple Sourmash Method", or the UJSSM for short.

          This is done with just cracked corn, water, sugar and yeast.  I have done this for several years with no problems (of course with several modifications - another topic).  Matter of fact, Uncle Jesse used to run the biggest distilling site on the net -  The Home Distillers Forum (he is now running his own distillery I believe).  See:  www.homedistiller.org.    For the recipe check out:  http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Uncle_Jesse's_Simple_Sour_Mash_Method

          Vino es Veritas,

          Jim aka Waldo.

           


          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "j_klinck" <j_klinck@...> wrote:
          >
          > Well, regular mash temperatures are going to kill any bacteria/wild yeast/lactobacillus that is on the grain. So if you do the mash in a kettle with the lid on, let it cool for a day and then open it up and pitch the yeast. Then the spoiling organisms won't really have a way into the mash.

        • jamesonbeam1
          Sorry J, For the forum its http://homedistiller.org/forum the link http://homedistiller.org/
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 24, 2009
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            Sorry J,

            For the forum its http://homedistiller.org/forum  the link http://homedistiller.org/ will get you to Tony Ackland's Home Distillers site - our bible.

            JB.

          • waljaco
            That s all very well but it is acknowledged that in open fermentation, which is practiced by commercial distilleries, wild things add to the character. Ever
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 25, 2009
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              That's all very well but it is acknowledged that in open fermentation, which is practiced by commercial distilleries, wild things add to the character. Ever tried Belgian geuze beer?
              wal

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "j_klinck" <j_klinck@...> wrote:
              >
              > Well, regular mash temperatures are going to kill any bacteria/wild yeast/lactobacillus that is on the grain. So if you do the mash in a kettle with the lid on, let it cool for a day and then open it up and pitch the yeast. Then the spoiling organisms won't really have a way into the mash.
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Hello J,
              > >
              > > And welcome aboard... I too as a wine maker was at first taken back a
              > > bit when reading about and learning some of the lack of sanitary
              > > techniques in this art of distilling.
              > >
              > > However, as you will soon understand, its not the fermentations we are
              > > drinking... Its the vapors from boiling the fermentations which are
              > > condensed into the "aqua vitae" we are seeking.
              > >
              > > Wine makers and brewers are very concerned about sanitary conditions,
              > > since their end products are fermented longer and kept in bottles, then
              > > drunk. Any small amounts of bacteria in them will quickly multiply and
              > > distroy those products.
              > >
              > > In our hobby, it is necessary to keep your untensils clean and the
              > > fermentation covered and away from bacteria (especially the kind that
              > > produces vinegar). However, due to the short fermentation times
              > > (usually less then a week to 2 weeks), any bacteria does not have time
              > > to build up. In the next step - distillation, the boiling of the
              > > fermentation will immediately kill off any remaining bad boys and they
              > > definitly will not come out in the vapors we condense.
              > >
              > > If you really want to get freaked out, check out the process of making
              > > dunder for rum and look at some of the pictures we have around here
              > > [;)] . Believe me, some of stuff I would'nt even consider using, but
              > > they say it adds to the flavors.
              > >
              > > Good luck and above all - Be Safe.
              > >
              > > Vino es Veritas,
              > >
              > > Jim aka Waldo.
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "j_klinck" <j_klinck@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I have been doing some reading about fermenting on grains (whiskey
              > > mash) and have a few question. I'm a homebrewer of many years and am
              > > very familiar with creating sanitary fermentation conditions. The whole
              > > idea of making a mash, letting it cool and then just pitching the yeast
              > > into it kind of freaks me out. Is there anything you do to keep the bugs
              > > from taking over and screwing up your fermentation?
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • jamesonbeam1
              Yuppers Wal, Give J some time - he will soon learn theres a method to our madness lol [;)] . Vino es Veritas, Jim aka Waldo. ... which is practiced by
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 26, 2009
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                Yuppers Wal,

                Give J some time - he will soon learn theres a method to our madness lol ;).

                Vino es Veritas,

                Jim aka Waldo.


                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                >
                > That's all very well but it is acknowledged that in open fermentation, which is practiced by commercial distilleries, wild things add to the character. Ever tried Belgian geuze beer?
                > wal
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "j_klinck" j_klinck@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Well, regular mash temperatures are going to kill any bacteria/wild yeast/lactobacillus that is on the grain. So if you do the mash in a kettle with the lid on, let it cool for a day and then open it up and pitch the yeast. Then the spoiling organisms won't really have a way into the mash.

              • tim cheek
                Does anyone have any sugestions for controling fruit flies, I had a hell of a time trying to controll them in open fermentations?
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 26, 2009
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                  Does anyone have any sugestions for controling fruit flies, I had a hell of a time trying to controll them in open fermentations?


                  From: waljaco <waljaco@...>
                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sat, December 26, 2009 12:54:18 AM
                  Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Fermenting on grains

                   

                  That's all very well but it is acknowledged that in open fermentation, which is practiced by commercial distilleries, wild things add to the character. Ever tried Belgian geuze beer?
                  wal

                  --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "j_klinck" <j_klinck@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > Well, regular mash temperatures are going to kill any bacteria/wild yeast/lactobacillus that is on the grain. So if you do the mash in a kettle with the lid on, let it cool for a day and then open it up and pitch the yeast. Then the spoiling organisms won't really have a way into the mash.
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@ > wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hello J,
                  > >
                  > > And welcome aboard... I too as a wine maker was at first taken back a
                  > > bit when reading about and learning some of the lack of sanitary
                  > > techniques in this art of distilling.
                  > >
                  > > However, as you will soon understand, its not the fermentations we are
                  > > drinking... Its the vapors from boiling the fermentations which are
                  > > condensed into the "aqua vitae" we are seeking.
                  > >
                  > > Wine makers and brewers are very concerned about sanitary conditions,
                  > > since their end products are fermented longer and kept in bottles, then
                  > > drunk. Any small amounts of bacteria in them will quickly multiply and
                  > > distroy those products.
                  > >
                  > > In our hobby, it is necessary to keep your untensils clean and the
                  > > fermentation covered and away from bacteria (especially the kind that
                  > > produces vinegar). However, due to the short fermentation times
                  > > (usually less then a week to 2 weeks), any bacteria does not have time
                  > > to build up. In the next step - distillation, the boiling of the
                  > > fermentation will immediately kill off any remaining bad boys and they
                  > > definitly will not come out in the vapors we condense.
                  > >
                  > > If you really want to get freaked out, check out the process of making
                  > > dunder for rum and look at some of the pictures we have around here
                  > > [;)] . Believe me, some of stuff I would'nt even consider using, but
                  > > they say it adds to the flavors.
                  > >
                  > > Good luck and above all - Be Safe.
                  > >
                  > > Vino es Veritas,
                  > >
                  > > Jim aka Waldo.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "j_klinck" <j_klinck@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I have been doing some reading about fermenting on grains (whiskey
                  > > mash) and have a few question. I'm a homebrewer of many years and am
                  > > very familiar with creating sanitary fermentation conditions. The whole
                  > > idea of making a mash, letting it cool and then just pitching the yeast
                  > > into it kind of freaks me out. Is there anything you do to keep the bugs
                  > > from taking over and screwing up your fermentation?
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >


                • Sven Sommer
                  Hallo Tim , here is Walter from Hannover in Germany yesterday i wrote that i will send a pic from the Faltebfilter, this is a specialfilter for wine or alcohol
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 27, 2009
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                  Hallo Tim ,
                  here is Walter from Hannover in Germany
                  yesterday i wrote that i will send a pic from the Faltebfilter, this is a specialfilter for wine or alcohol
                  look at the pics
                  here it 17:15 Time
                  many greetings Walter


                  Von: tim cheek <cfrewilly@...>
                  An: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Gesendet: Sonntag, den 27. Dezember 2009, 0:13:43 Uhr
                  Betreff: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Fermenting on grains

                   

                  Does anyone have any sugestions for controling fruit flies, I had a hell of a time trying to controll them in open fermentations?


                  From: waljaco <waljaco@hotmail. com>
                  To: new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Sat, December 26, 2009 12:54:18 AM
                  Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Fermenting on grains

                   

                  That's all very well but it is acknowledged that in open fermentation, which is practiced by commercial distilleries, wild things add to the character. Ever tried Belgian geuze beer?
                  wal

                  --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "j_klinck" <j_klinck@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > Well, regular mash temperatures are going to kill any bacteria/wild yeast/lactobacillus that is on the grain. So if you do the mash in a kettle with the lid on, let it cool for a day and then open it up and pitch the yeast. Then the spoiling organisms won't really have a way into the mash.
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@ > wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hello J,
                  > >
                  > > And welcome aboard... I too as a wine maker was at first taken back a
                  > > bit when reading about and learning some of the lack of sanitary
                  > > techniques in this art of distilling.
                  > >
                  > > However, as you will soon understand, its not the fermentations we are
                  > > drinking... Its the vapors from boiling the fermentations which are
                  > > condensed into the "aqua vitae" we are seeking.
                  > >
                  > > Wine makers and brewers are very concerned about sanitary conditions,
                  > > since their end products are fermented longer and kept in bottles, then
                  > > drunk. Any small amounts of bacteria in them will quickly multiply and
                  > > distroy those products.
                  > >
                  > > In our hobby, it is necessary to keep your untensils clean and the
                  > > fermentation covered and away from bacteria (especially the kind that
                  > > produces vinegar). However, due to the short fermentation times
                  > > (usually less then a week to 2 weeks), any bacteria does not have time
                  > > to build up. In the next step - distillation, the boiling of the
                  > > fermentation will immediately kill off any remaining bad boys and they
                  > > definitly will not come out in the vapors we condense.
                  > >
                  > > If you really want to get freaked out, check out the process of making
                  > > dunder for rum and look at some of the pictures we have around here
                  > > [;)] . Believe me, some of stuff I would'nt even consider using, but
                  > > they say it adds to the flavors.
                  > >
                  > > Good luck and above all - Be Safe.
                  > >
                  > > Vino es Veritas,
                  > >
                  > > Jim aka Waldo.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "j_klinck" <j_klinck@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I have been doing some reading about fermenting on grains (whiskey
                  > > mash) and have a few question. I'm a homebrewer of many years and am
                  > > very familiar with creating sanitary fermentation conditions. The whole
                  > > idea of making a mash, letting it cool and then just pitching the yeast
                  > > into it kind of freaks me out. Is there anything you do to keep the bugs
                  > > from taking over and screwing up your fermentation?
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >



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                • jamesonbeam1
                  Hi Tim, Again sorry for the delay in responding, as I said earlier, most of us were away or just enjoying the holidays. For our purposes, it is highly
                  Message 9 of 11 , Jan 3, 2010
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                    Hi Tim,

                    Again sorry for the delay in responding, as I said earlier, most of us were away or just enjoying the holidays.

                    For our purposes, it is highly recommended to keep your fermentation covered at all times.  While I dont recommend an air lock for primary fermentations, a tight fitting platic garbage bag tied down works fine.

                    Not only does this keep air borne bacteria and flying critters out, but also maintains a CO2 layer over the liquid.   Our friends Down Under also have to watch out for them land based critters like geckos while up here its those blue tailed lizzards and slugs....

                    Not to mention the occasional alcoholic raccoon that loves knocking over containers filled with mash ;).

                    Vino es Veritas,

                    Jim aka Waldo. 


                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, tim cheek <cfrewilly@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Does anyone have any sugestions for controling fruit flies, I had a hell of a time trying to controll them in open fermentations?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: waljaco waljaco@...
                    > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sat, December 26, 2009 12:54:18 AM
                    > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Fermenting on grains
                    >
                    >  
                    > That's all very well but it is acknowledged that in open fermentation, which is practiced by commercial distilleries, wild things add to the character. Ever tried Belgian geuze beer?
                    > wal

                  • tim cheek
                    Thanks I will give that a try, I don t have the problem as bad in the winter, but the summer 90% humidity and 90*f  plus,  all the flying, crawling and God
                    Message 10 of 11 , Jan 3, 2010
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                      Thanks I will give that a try, I don't have the problem as bad in the winter, but the summer 90% humidity and 90*f  plus,  all the flying, crawling and God knows what else seams to find it's way into the liquid. I can only imagine what the good ole boy's in the hills found in there liquid years ago. This is a new area for me and it seams a lot like cooking from scratch, which I love to do. I am glad to have found this group and I am sure to be asking more questions and making more mistakes.
                      coastal corn liker


                      From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
                      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sun, January 3, 2010 9:33:29 AM
                      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Fermenting on grains

                       

                      Hi Tim,

                      Again sorry for the delay in responding, as I said earlier, most of us were away or just enjoying the holidays.

                      For our purposes, it is highly recommended to keep your fermentation covered at all times.  While I dont recommend an air lock for primary fermentations, a tight fitting platic garbage bag tied down works fine.

                      Not only does this keep air borne bacteria and flying critters out, but also maintains a CO2 layer over the liquid.   Our friends Down Under also have to watch out for them land based critters like geckos while up here its those blue tailed lizzards and slugs....

                      Not to mention the occasional alcoholic raccoon that loves knocking over containers filled with mash ;).

                      Vino es Veritas,

                      Jim aka Waldo. 


                      --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, tim cheek <cfrewilly@.. .> wrote:
                      >
                      > Does anyone have any sugestions for controling fruit flies, I had a hell of a time trying to controll them in open fermentations?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ____________ _________ _________ __
                      > From: waljaco waljaco@...
                      > To: new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Sent: Sat, December 26, 2009 12:54:18 AM
                      > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Fermenting on grains
                      >
                      >  
                      > That's all very well but it is acknowledged that in open fermentation, which is practiced by commercial distilleries, wild things add to the character. Ever tried Belgian geuze beer?
                      > wal


                    • tim cheek
                      test ________________________________ From: tim cheek To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, January 3, 2010 10:35:09 PM Subject:
                      Message 11 of 11 , Jan 3, 2010
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                        test


                        From: tim cheek <cfrewilly@...>
                        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sun, January 3, 2010 10:35:09 PM
                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Fermenting on grains

                         

                        Thanks I will give that a try, I don't have the problem as bad in the winter, but the summer 90% humidity and 90*f  plus,  all the flying, crawling and God knows what else seams to find it's way into the liquid. I can only imagine what the good ole boy's in the hills found in there liquid years ago. This is a new area for me and it seams a lot like cooking from scratch, which I love to do. I am glad to have found this group and I am sure to be asking more questions and making more mistakes.
                        coastal corn liker


                        From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@ yahoo.com>
                        To: new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Sun, January 3, 2010 9:33:29 AM
                        Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Fermenting on grains

                         

                        Hi Tim,

                        Again sorry for the delay in responding, as I said earlier, most of us were away or just enjoying the holidays.

                        For our purposes, it is highly recommended to keep your fermentation covered at all times.  While I dont recommend an air lock for primary fermentations, a tight fitting platic garbage bag tied down works fine.

                        Not only does this keep air borne bacteria and flying critters out, but also maintains a CO2 layer over the liquid.   Our friends Down Under also have to watch out for them land based critters like geckos while up here its those blue tailed lizzards and slugs....

                        Not to mention the occasional alcoholic raccoon that loves knocking over containers filled with mash ;).

                        Vino es Veritas,

                        Jim aka Waldo. 


                        --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, tim cheek <cfrewilly@.. .> wrote:
                        >
                        > Does anyone have any sugestions for controling fruit flies, I had a hell of a time trying to controll them in open fermentations?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ____________ _________ _________ __
                        > From: waljaco waljaco@...
                        > To: new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Sat, December 26, 2009 12:54:18 AM
                        > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Fermenting on grains
                        >
                        >  
                        > That's all very well but it is acknowledged that in open fermentation, which is practiced by commercial distilleries, wild things add to the character. Ever tried Belgian geuze beer?
                        > wal



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