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Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies for beginners

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  • tgfoitwoods
    Okay, I m open to the fact that many, perhaps even all, plastics leach toxins into high-ABV spirit, but can anyone tell me *which* toxins are leached out of
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 2, 2009
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      Okay, I'm open to the fact that many, perhaps even all, plastics leach toxins into high-ABV spirit, but can anyone tell me *which* toxins are leached out of medium-density polyethylene, the plastic our milk jugs are made from?

      Except for the number of carbons in the molecular chain, polyethylene is chemically identical to paraffin wax, generally considered to be chemically inert. Also, because of the physical properties of MDPE, I'd be surprised if plasticizers are included, and our jugs use no coloring agents.

      So I want to get past yes or no, good or bad, and get to *what*. Does anyone here know?

      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller (who doesn't store in *any* plastic)

      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Ooms" <jkooms@...> wrote:
      ----snip----
      > Please stay away from plastic, if you don't, you will be a surgeons delight in future.
      > There is enough information in the archives about plastic in relation to alcohol useage and storage.
      ----snip----
    • jamesonbeam1
      OK Guys, Didn t mean to start a flame war here. I was being a bit facetious and tounge in cheek when asking for comments on Schnakeus recommendation to
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 2, 2009
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        OK Guys,

        Didn't mean to start a flame war here.  I was being a bit facetious and "tounge in cheek" when asking for comments on Schnakeus' recommendation to Andy about using plastic milk bottles to age 60% (120 proof) rum in.

        To try and put this in perspective, plastics are fine for primary fermentations of up to 20% or so ABV.  This is what would be considered "pre-distilled" product.  For distilling and "post-distilled" products we are going to drink, there are only certain plastics that are ethanol tolerant, and even then, drinkable stuff over 100 proof should not be stored in them for any length of time.  Riku, a moderator and well known still designer here can tell you which plastics are ok for this (like the Amazing Still).  However, used plastic milk containers definitely DO NOT contain one of these.....

        The only approved and recommended plastic containers for holding drinkable ethanol products for any prolonged period of time (again under 50% or 100 proof), are the specially coated PET liquor bottles they came out with about 10 years ago.  These have special coatings which form a barrier between the ethanol and the plastic.

        Please do not store or try and age your "barrel strength" products in any type of plastic containers.  USE GLASS or oak barrels.  PLEASE.

        Remember this Schnakeus for Gosh sake.  Below is a posting by Harry from Advanced Distillers on PET bottles and their coatings.

        Vino es Veritas,

        Jim aka Waldo.

        repost of Distillers group msg# 39312 

        Re: Angels share?

        --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:

        >
        > Good information Harry,
        >
        > Now few more things. As an example polypropylene seems to be OK for
        > medium term STORAGE of medium strength ethanol. That's not aging but
        > storage. PET bottles I've had trouble with. I once stored some 30-40%
        > low wines temporarily (for few hours) into a thin walled pet bottle
        > and it deformed. What we need to remember here is that we are not
        > dealing exclusively with ethanol, rather flavored drinks and
        > especially low-wines have many other higher+lower boiling point
        > alcohols + other chemicals. The combined effect of all these is quite
        > impossible to determine without empirical testing.
        >
        > Cheers, Riku

         

        I'm in the middle of doing up a paper on plastic containers in distilling.  It'll take me a while to finish.  But as to your experiences with PET bottles...time & technology march on relentlessly.  The reason they've been able to use PET for beverages like Early Times & Ancient Age whiskey for the last 10 years  (and I believe Jim Beam is now using it), is because of the great advances in coating or barrier substances and processes. 

        The pet bottles of today are a far cry from those of even 3 or 4 years ago.  There's also PET bottles tailor-made for specific fills, like carbonated drinks and hot-fill juices in PET bottles that don't distort and whose contents have a shelf life requirement of longer than 9 months.

          The barrier coatings range from the organic coatings (epoxyamine aka Bairocade) developed in the mid 1990s to lengthen the shelf life of the smaller soft drink sizes in hotter climates,  then for beer, to the latest plasma-applied inorganic coatings, using carbon or silicon.

        It's a brave new world, particularly for we adventurous distillers.


        Slainte!
        regards Harry


         

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Ooms" <jkooms@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi YMMV,
        > I hope that you drink all that gutrot yourself. You wouldn't want it on your concience that you are slowly poisoning all your drinking mates.
        > Please stay away from plastic, if you don't, you will be a surgeons delight in future.
        > There is enough information in the archives about plastic in relation to alcohol useage and storage.
        > Do not take any notice of Multi Nationals and their statements in regard to plastic, pvc etc etc.
        > Their bottomline dictates what is healthy for you and us.
        > Best Regards,
        > Jan.
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: macrobert@...
        > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 11:29 PM
        > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies for beginners
        >
        >
        >
        > I've found that at ~35% or lower it seems to be okay, but above that it gets flavours from the plastic.
        > YMMV
        >
        >
        > Robbie Mac
        > Sometime tinkerer and sometimes it even works....
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: jamesonbeam1 jamesonbeam1@...
        > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:21 am
        > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies for beginners
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi All,
        > After being critiqued too many times on my beliefs in using plastics in the hobby of distilling, would any of you other 3,648 members here in New Distillers care to comment on Schnakeus' recommendation to Andy (a brand new member and distiller) on this statement:
        > "Distill 4L, removing first 2Tsp of fusels, down to approx 1.1 Litre(using a 4L pot still) Don't collect tails, throw em away. A couple weeks in a plastic milk jug with a tsp med toast oak chips per litre really mellows."
        > Thanks,
        > Vino es Veritas,
        > Jim aka Waldo.
        >

      • jamesonbeam1
        Hi ZB, Not sure what they all are or do, but heres a few. Vino es Veritas, Jim aka Waldo. Toxins, Endocrine Disruptors And Carcinogens That Migrate From The
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 2, 2009
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          Hi ZB,

          Not sure what they all are or do, but heres a few.

          Vino es Veritas,

          Jim aka Waldo.

          Toxins, Endocrine Disruptors And Carcinogens That Migrate From The Molecules Of Different Plastic Containers To Their Contents

          Polyethylene Glycol /PEG
          Moderately toxic, eye irritant and possible carcinogen. Many glycols produce severe acidosis, central nervous system damage and congestion. Can cause convulsions, mutations, and surface EEG changes. Found in cosmetics, body products, foods, lotions.

          PET: Polyethylene Terephthalate

          Used for: Soda Bottles, Water Bottles, Peanut Butter Jars, Cooking Oil Bottles

          What migrates from plastic container to contents: Acetaldehyde

          HDPE: High-Density Polyethylene

          Used for: Milk Jugs, Detergent bottles, Plastic Bags, Yogurt Cups

          What migrates from plastic container to contents: Antioxidants, BHT, Chimassorb 81, Irganox PS 800, Irganix 1076, Irganox 1010

          PVC: Polyvinyl Chloride

          Used for: Water Bottles, Salad Dressing Bottles, Detergent Bottles, Cooking Oil Bottles, Shampoo Bottles, Mouth Wash Bottles, Meat Wrap, Also: Babies' Teething Rings, Pacifiers, Nipples and Toys (Barbie for example).

          What migrates from plastic container to contents: Plasticizers (Lead, Cadmium, Mercury, Phthalates and the carcinogen, Diethyl Hexyphosphate)

          LDPE: Low-Density Polyethylene

          Used for: Produce Bags, Food Storage Containers

          What migrates from plastic container to contents: Antioxidants, BHT, Chimassorb 81, Irganox PS 800, Irganix 1076, Irganox 1010

          PP: Polypropylene

          Used for: Bottle Caps, Drinking Straws

          What migrates from plastic container to contents: BHT, Chimassorb 81, Irganox PS 800, Irganix 1076, Irganox 1010

          PS: Polystyrene

          Used for: Meat Trays, Foam Take-Out Food Containers & Cups (not in Berkeley!), Foam Packing Materials

          What migrates from plastic container to contents: Styrene (traces found in nearly everyone's body fat)

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
          >
          > Okay, I'm open to the fact that many, perhaps even all, plastics leach toxins into high-ABV spirit, but can anyone tell me *which* toxins are leached out of medium-density polyethylene, the plastic our milk jugs are made from?
          >
          > Except for the number of carbons in the molecular chain, polyethylene is chemically identical to paraffin wax, generally considered to be chemically inert. Also, because of the physical properties of MDPE, I'd be surprised if plasticizers are included, and our jugs use no coloring agents.
          >
          > So I want to get past yes or no, good or bad, and get to *what*. Does anyone here know?
          >
          > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller (who doesn't store in *any* plastic)
          >
          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Ooms" jkooms@ wrote:
          > ----snip----
          > > Please stay away from plastic, if you don't, you will be a surgeons delight in future.
          > > There is enough information in the archives about plastic in relation to alcohol useage and storage.
          > ----snip----
          >

        • Paul Smith
          You can add Bispheno-A (BPA) to that list, a suspected carcinogen and (I can t remember the word, but..) it also affects how sex of an animal is expressed
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 2, 2009
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            You can add Bispheno-A (BPA) to that list, a suspected carcinogen and (I can't remember the word, but..) it also affects how sex of an animal is expressed (males less obviously so [smaller penis/testes, low sperm counts], females often sterile).
             
            It's a plasticiser that is added to most food grade plastics, in high density PET is keeps it from forming razor sharp shards when it breaks, in the lower density types it just makes the flexible, and we're only taking PPT addition rates at most! Biological effects start at PPB rates....
             
            OH yeah the multi-nationals recon it's totally safe, but until I see evidence that the findings made to date are WRONG I won't use plastics unless it's unavoidable.
             
            P.

            --- On Mon, 2/11/09, jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:

            From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies for beginners
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Received: Monday, 2 November, 2009, 11:34 PM

             
            Hi ZB,
            Not sure what they all are or do, but heres a few.
            Vino es Veritas,
            Jim aka Waldo.

            Toxins, Endocrine Disruptors And Carcinogens That Migrate From The Molecules Of Different Plastic Containers To Their Contents

            Polyethylene Glycol /PEG
            Moderately toxic, eye irritant and possible carcinogen. Many glycols produce severe acidosis, central nervous system damage and congestion. Can cause convulsions, mutations, and surface EEG changes. Found in cosmetics, body products, foods, lotions.
            PET: Polyethylene Terephthalate
            Used for: Soda Bottles, Water Bottles, Peanut Butter Jars, Cooking Oil Bottles
            What migrates from plastic container to contents: Acetaldehyde
            HDPE: High-Density Polyethylene
            Used for: Milk Jugs, Detergent bottles, Plastic Bags, Yogurt Cups
            What migrates from plastic container to contents: Antioxidants, BHT, Chimassorb 81, Irganox PS 800, Irganix 1076, Irganox 1010
            PVC: Polyvinyl Chloride
            Used for: Water Bottles, Salad Dressing Bottles, Detergent Bottles, Cooking Oil Bottles, Shampoo Bottles, Mouth Wash Bottles, Meat Wrap, Also: Babies' Teething Rings, Pacifiers, Nipples and Toys (Barbie for example).
            What migrates from plastic container to contents: Plasticizers (Lead, Cadmium, Mercury, Phthalates and the carcinogen, Diethyl Hexyphosphate)
            LDPE: Low-Density Polyethylene
            Used for: Produce Bags, Food Storage Containers
            What migrates from plastic container to contents: Antioxidants, BHT, Chimassorb 81, Irganox PS 800, Irganix 1076, Irganox 1010
            PP: Polypropylene
            Used for: Bottle Caps, Drinking Straws
            What migrates from plastic container to contents: BHT, Chimassorb 81, Irganox PS 800, Irganix 1076, Irganox 1010
            PS: Polystyrene
            Used for: Meat Trays, Foam Take-Out Food Containers & Cups (not in Berkeley!), Foam Packing Materials
            What migrates from plastic container to contents: Styrene (traces found in nearly everyone's body fat)
            --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@. ..> wrote:
            >
            > Okay, I'm open to the fact that many, perhaps even all, plastics leach toxins into high-ABV spirit, but can anyone tell me *which* toxins are leached out of medium-density polyethylene, the plastic our milk jugs are made from?
            >
            > Except for the number of carbons in the molecular chain, polyethylene is chemically identical to paraffin wax, generally considered to be chemically inert. Also, because of the physical properties of MDPE, I'd be surprised if plasticizers are included, and our jugs use no coloring agents.
            >
            > So I want to get past yes or no, good or bad, and get to *what*. Does anyone here know?
            >
            > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller (who doesn't store in *any* plastic)
            >
            > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "Jan Ooms" jkooms@ wrote:
            > ----snip----
            > > Please stay away from plastic, if you don't, you will be a surgeons delight in future.
            > > There is enough information in the archives about plastic in relation to alcohol useage and storage.
            > ----snip----
            >


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          • tgfoitwoods
            Thanks a bunch Waldo and Paul. I m saving this info. I like hard facts *way* better than just handwaving, and I m *still* collecting and storing in glass.
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 2, 2009
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              Thanks a bunch Waldo and Paul.

              I'm saving this info. I like hard facts *way* better than just handwaving, and I'm *still* collecting and storing in glass.

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paul Smith <praxis178@...> wrote:
              >
              > You can add Bispheno-A (BPA) to that list, a suspected carcinogen and (I can't remember the word, but..) it also affects how sex of an animal is expressed (males less obviously so [smaller penis/testes, low sperm counts], females often sterile).
              >  
              >----snip----
            • jamesonbeam1
              Your More then Welcome ZB, But again, remember this everyone, what we are doing here, is making drinkable poison in the first place. All these discussions
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 2, 2009
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                Your More then Welcome ZB,

                But again, remember this everyone, what we are doing here, is making drinkable "poison" in the first place.  All these discussions on plastics, foreshots, and correct cuts contribute just a fraction of 1 percent to the real "poisons" we are making.  Downing a quart of the best 12 year old whiskey you can get in less then 1 hour will prove this to ya' all.

                So the best adviceto all is: Drink Sensible, Be Safe and dont sell your hootch.  Remember, this is a hobby and an aged,  good and honorable one!!!

                Vino es Veritas,

                Jim aka Waldo.

                PS> No I haven't yet joined MADD (mothers against drunk drivers), Im still a member of DAMM (drinkers against mad mothers);).....

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks a bunch Waldo and Paul.
                >
                > I'm saving this info. I like hard facts *way* better than just handwaving, and I'm *still* collecting and storing in glass.
                >
                > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paul Smith praxis178@ wrote:
                > >
                > > You can add Bispheno-A (BPA) to that list, a suspected carcinogen and (I can't remember the word, but..) it also affects how sex of an animal is expressed (males less obviously so [smaller penis/testes, low sperm counts], females often sterile).
                > >  
                > >----snip----
                >

              • schnakeus
                Jim and all, Sorry Andy, I shouldn t have recommended plastic, although I was talking short term (7 to 10 days to mellow and color. Then dilute,flavor and
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 2, 2009
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                  Jim and all,
                  Sorry Andy, I shouldn't have recommended plastic, although I was talking short term (7 to 10 days to mellow and color. Then dilute,flavor and bottle). I also use glass. I don't want to mislead anyone. Jan, are you sure it is absolutely that dangerous? I'm no chemistry major. Anyway it's a decent rum recipe. And glass is best. Shame on me!

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > OK Guys,
                  >
                  > Didn't mean to start a flame war here. I was being a bit facetious and
                  > "tounge in cheek" when asking for comments on Schnakeus' recommendation
                  > to Andy about using plastic milk bottles to age 60% (120 proof) rum in.
                  >
                  > To try and put this in perspective, plastics are fine for primary
                  > fermentations of up to 20% or so ABV. This is what would be considered
                  > "pre-distilled" product. For distilling and "post-distilled" products
                  > we are going to drink, there are only certain plastics that are ethanol
                  > tolerant, and even then, drinkable stuff over 100 proof should not be
                  > stored in them for any length of time. Riku, a moderator and well known
                  > still designer here can tell you which plastics are ok for this (like
                  > the Amazing Still). However, used plastic milk containers definitely DO
                  > NOT contain one of these.....
                  >
                  > The only approved and recommended plastic containers for holding
                  > drinkable ethanol products for any prolonged period of time (again under
                  > 50% or 100 proof), are the specially coated PET liquor bottles they came
                  > out with about 10 years ago. These have special coatings which form a
                  > barrier between the ethanol and the plastic.
                  >
                  > Please do not store or try and age your "barrel strength" products in
                  > any type of plastic containers. USE GLASS or oak barrels. PLEASE.
                  >
                  > Remember this Schnakeus for Gosh sake. Below is a posting by Harry from
                  > Advanced Distillers on PET bottles and their coatings.
                  >
                  > Vino es Veritas,
                  >
                  > Jim aka Waldo.
                  >
                  > repost of Distillers group msg# 39312
                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/39312>
                  > Re: Angels share?
                  > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Good information Harry,
                  > >
                  > > Now few more things. As an example polypropylene seems to be OK for
                  > > medium term STORAGE of medium strength ethanol. That's not aging but
                  > > storage. PET bottles I've had trouble with. I once stored some 30-40%
                  > > low wines temporarily (for few hours) into a thin walled pet bottle
                  > > and it deformed. What we need to remember here is that we are not
                  > > dealing exclusively with ethanol, rather flavored drinks and
                  > > especially low-wines have many other higher+lower boiling point
                  > > alcohols + other chemicals. The combined effect of all these is quite
                  > > impossible to determine without empirical testing.
                  > >
                  > > Cheers, Riku
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I'm in the middle of doing up a paper on plastic containers in
                  > distilling. It'll take me a while to finish. But as to your
                  > experiences with PET bottles...time & technology march on relentlessly.
                  > The reason they've been able to use PET for beverages like Early Times &
                  > Ancient Age whiskey for the last 10 years (and I believe Jim Beam is
                  > now using it), is because of the great advances in coating or barrier
                  > substances and processes.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The pet bottles of today are a far cry from those of even 3 or 4 years
                  > ago. There's also PET bottles tailor-made for specific fills, like
                  > carbonated drinks and hot-fill juices in PET bottles that don't distort
                  > and whose contents have a shelf life requirement of longer than 9
                  > months.
                  >
                  > The barrier coatings range from the organic coatings (epoxyamine aka
                  > Bairocade) developed in the mid 1990s to lengthen the shelf life of the
                  > smaller soft drink sizes in hotter climates, then for beer, to the
                  > latest plasma-applied inorganic coatings, using carbon or silicon.
                  >
                  > It's a brave new world, particularly for we adventurous distillers.
                  >
                  >
                  > Slainte!
                  > regards Harry
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Ooms" <jkooms@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi YMMV,
                  > > I hope that you drink all that gutrot yourself. You wouldn't want it
                  > on your concience that you are slowly poisoning all your drinking mates.
                  > > Please stay away from plastic, if you don't, you will be a surgeons
                  > delight in future.
                  > > There is enough information in the archives about plastic in relation
                  > to alcohol useage and storage.
                  > > Do not take any notice of Multi Nationals and their statements in
                  > regard to plastic, pvc etc etc.
                  > > Their bottomline dictates what is healthy for you and us.
                  > > Best Regards,
                  > > Jan.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: macrobert@
                  > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 11:29 PM
                  > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies for
                  > beginners
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I've found that at ~35% or lower it seems to be okay, but above that
                  > it gets flavours from the plastic.
                  > > YMMV
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Robbie Mac
                  > > Sometime tinkerer and sometimes it even works....
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: jamesonbeam1 jamesonbeam1@
                  > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:21 am
                  > > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies for
                  > beginners
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hi All,
                  > > After being critiqued too many times on my beliefs in using plastics
                  > in the hobby of distilling, would any of you other 3,648 members here in
                  > New Distillers care to comment on Schnakeus' recommendation to Andy (a
                  > brand new member and distiller) on this statement:
                  > > "Distill 4L, removing first 2Tsp of fusels, down to approx 1.1
                  > Litre(using a 4L pot still) Don't collect tails, throw em away. A couple
                  > weeks in a plastic milk jug with a tsp med toast oak chips per litre
                  > really mellows."
                  > > Thanks,
                  > > Vino es Veritas,
                  > > Jim aka Waldo.
                  > >
                  >
                • jamesonbeam1
                  Hi Schnakeus, No big deal at all. This hobby is constant learning curve and im glad this was brough out in the open. Just hope people now relize when and
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 3, 2009
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                    Hi Schnakeus,

                    No big deal at all. This hobby is constant learning curve and im glad
                    this was brough out in the open. Just hope people now relize when and
                    where to use plastics. My views are simply that its better safe then
                    sorry, so I stay away from plastics in any post-distilled product.

                    And yes, your recipe is a good one, and especially interesting adding
                    the essences as well. The only constructive criticism would be taking
                    it all the way up to 21% ABV. This is the very upper limit of the turbo
                    yeast's tolerance and may cause some unwanted flavors and stess them
                    out. Not to mention the heat being generated.

                    I use about the same ratios of sugars to molasses, but usually go no
                    more then 14% ABV for rums, while the commercial rum makers usually
                    shoot for around 10% ABV. Lower ABVs in your fermentation will allow
                    more flavors to come through.

                    Vino es Veritas,

                    Jim aka Waldo.


                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "schnakeus" <schnake1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Jim and all,
                    > Sorry Andy, I shouldn't have recommended plastic, although I was
                    talking short term (7 to 10 days to mellow and color. Then dilute,flavor
                    and bottle). I also use glass. I don't want to mislead anyone. Jan, are
                    you sure it is absolutely that dangerous? I'm no chemistry major. Anyway
                    it's a decent rum recipe. And glass is best. Shame on me!
                    >
                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
                    wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > OK Guys,
                    > >
                    > > Didn't mean to start a flame war here. I was being a bit facetious
                    and
                    > > "tounge in cheek" when asking for comments on Schnakeus'
                    recommendation
                    > > to Andy about using plastic milk bottles to age 60% (120 proof) rum
                    in.
                    > >
                    > > To try and put this in perspective, plastics are fine for primary
                    > > fermentations of up to 20% or so ABV. This is what would be
                    considered
                    > > "pre-distilled" product. For distilling and "post-distilled"
                    products
                    > > we are going to drink, there are only certain plastics that are
                    ethanol
                    > > tolerant, and even then, drinkable stuff over 100 proof should not
                    be
                    > > stored in them for any length of time. Riku, a moderator and well
                    known
                    > > still designer here can tell you which plastics are ok for this
                    (like
                    > > the Amazing Still). However, used plastic milk containers definitely
                    DO
                    > > NOT contain one of these.....
                    > >
                    > > The only approved and recommended plastic containers for holding
                    > > drinkable ethanol products for any prolonged period of time (again
                    under
                    > > 50% or 100 proof), are the specially coated PET liquor bottles they
                    came
                    > > out with about 10 years ago. These have special coatings which form
                    a
                    > > barrier between the ethanol and the plastic.
                    > >
                    > > Please do not store or try and age your "barrel strength" products
                    in
                    > > any type of plastic containers. USE GLASS or oak barrels. PLEASE.
                    > >
                    > > Remember this Schnakeus for Gosh sake. Below is a posting by Harry
                    from
                    > > Advanced Distillers on PET bottles and their coatings.
                    > >
                    > > Vino es Veritas,
                    > >
                    > > Jim aka Waldo.
                    > >
                    > > repost of Distillers group msg# 39312
                    > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/39312>
                    > > Re: Angels share?
                    > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Good information Harry,
                    > > >
                    > > > Now few more things. As an example polypropylene seems to be OK
                    for
                    > > > medium term STORAGE of medium strength ethanol. That's not aging
                    but
                    > > > storage. PET bottles I've had trouble with. I once stored some
                    30-40%
                    > > > low wines temporarily (for few hours) into a thin walled pet
                    bottle
                    > > > and it deformed. What we need to remember here is that we are not
                    > > > dealing exclusively with ethanol, rather flavored drinks and
                    > > > especially low-wines have many other higher+lower boiling point
                    > > > alcohols + other chemicals. The combined effect of all these is
                    quite
                    > > > impossible to determine without empirical testing.
                    > > >
                    > > > Cheers, Riku
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I'm in the middle of doing up a paper on plastic containers in
                    > > distilling. It'll take me a while to finish. But as to your
                    > > experiences with PET bottles...time & technology march on
                    relentlessly.
                    > > The reason they've been able to use PET for beverages like Early
                    Times &
                    > > Ancient Age whiskey for the last 10 years (and I believe Jim Beam is
                    > > now using it), is because of the great advances in coating or
                    barrier
                    > > substances and processes.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The pet bottles of today are a far cry from those of even 3 or 4
                    years
                    > > ago. There's also PET bottles tailor-made for specific fills, like
                    > > carbonated drinks and hot-fill juices in PET bottles that don't
                    distort
                    > > and whose contents have a shelf life requirement of longer than 9
                    > > months.
                    > >
                    > > The barrier coatings range from the organic coatings (epoxyamine aka
                    > > Bairocade) developed in the mid 1990s to lengthen the shelf life of
                    the
                    > > smaller soft drink sizes in hotter climates, then for beer, to the
                    > > latest plasma-applied inorganic coatings, using carbon or silicon.
                    > >
                    > > It's a brave new world, particularly for we adventurous distillers.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Slainte!
                    > > regards Harry
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Ooms" <jkooms@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi YMMV,
                    > > > I hope that you drink all that gutrot yourself. You wouldn't want
                    it
                    > > on your concience that you are slowly poisoning all your drinking
                    mates.
                    > > > Please stay away from plastic, if you don't, you will be a
                    surgeons
                    > > delight in future.
                    > > > There is enough information in the archives about plastic in
                    relation
                    > > to alcohol useage and storage.
                    > > > Do not take any notice of Multi Nationals and their statements in
                    > > regard to plastic, pvc etc etc.
                    > > > Their bottomline dictates what is healthy for you and us.
                    > > > Best Regards,
                    > > > Jan.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > From: macrobert@
                    > > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 11:29 PM
                    > > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies
                    for
                    > > beginners
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > I've found that at ~35% or lower it seems to be okay, but above
                    that
                    > > it gets flavours from the plastic.
                    > > > YMMV
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Robbie Mac
                    > > > Sometime tinkerer and sometimes it even works....
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: jamesonbeam1 jamesonbeam1@
                    > > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Sent: Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:21 am
                    > > > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies for
                    > > beginners
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi All,
                    > > > After being critiqued too many times on my beliefs in using
                    plastics
                    > > in the hobby of distilling, would any of you other 3,648 members
                    here in
                    > > New Distillers care to comment on Schnakeus' recommendation to Andy
                    (a
                    > > brand new member and distiller) on this statement:
                    > > > "Distill 4L, removing first 2Tsp of fusels, down to approx 1.1
                    > > Litre(using a 4L pot still) Don't collect tails, throw em away. A
                    couple
                    > > weeks in a plastic milk jug with a tsp med toast oak chips per litre
                    > > really mellows."
                    > > > Thanks,
                    > > > Vino es Veritas,
                    > > > Jim aka Waldo.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
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