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Re: MSUCM-More advice needed

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  • jamesonbeam1
    Sounds good Duane, Just add the water in increments till it looks right. Vino es Veritas, Jim aka Waldo.
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 2, 2009
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      Sounds good Duane,

      Just add the water in increments till it looks right.

      Vino es Veritas,
      Jim aka Waldo.



      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "dsmith1997" <dsmith1997@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Jim,
      >
      > Thanks for the advice. I put this on hold for a few days
      > to finish up my other sugar washes but my plan is to split
      > this into two batches because it's so thick. Right now it has
      > 4 gal. water, 7lbs sugar, 5 lb corn meal, 2 boxes flakes. I
      > plan on splitting into two and adding 2 more gallons of water
      > each and probably 3.5 lbs more sugar each then pitch yeast etc.
      > Does this plan make sense to salvage this? Any other suggestions?
      >
      > Thanks, Duane
      >
      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Hey Duane,
      > >
      > > You may have cooked it too long. This has happened to me before also.
      > > I just add more water till it is the right consistancy. In your case,
      > > if you add 2 more gallons of water or so (for a total of 6 gallons),
      > > this should come out to around a 7% to 8% ABV (1.055 to 1.060 SG), with
      > > 7 lbs of sugar (maybe a bit higer since there is some sugar in the
      > > cornflakes). This is usually what the Bourbon makers shoot for in their
      > > corn mash. However, with all the grain solids in it, your hydrometer
      > > will be skewed quite a bit.
      > >
      > > If its still too thick, let us know - its easy to mix and match with a
      > > bit more sugar. You should end up with about 7 gallons of mash with all
      > > the solids.
      > >
      > > In the future, do not mix the grains with the sugar. Mash the grains,
      > > corn flakes first (helps if you grind or crush them up), then add the
      > > corn meal till it till it gets nice and soggy. But dont "cook" it too
      > > much or else it starts expanding. Sorry should have clarified this
      > > earlier.
      > >
      > > But dont worry - its very easy to fix.
      > >
      > > Vino es Veritas,
      > >
      > > Jim aka Waldo.
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "dsmith1997" <dsmith1997@>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Greetings,
      > > >
      > > > Started making this today. I've only done sugar washes before.
      > > > I boiled 2 gal. water, then added 7 lb sugar then brought back
      > > > to boil. I then added the corn meal and flakes and soon
      > > > found that this was is REALLY thick, so I added another 2 gal.
      > > > water and stirred like crazy while simmering. My question
      > > > is about the thick solution. Is this normal? I'm almost
      > > > tempted to add another gal of water. It's cooling down now
      > > > so I'll pitch yeast later tonight but it seems so thick
      > > > it's a bit scary. I have no experience here. I assume once
      > > > it starts to ferment it will settle but at this point I'd
      > > > wonder if you can even siphon off the liquid when the ferment
      > > > is done or do you just distill the whole thing when done.
      > > > Could use some additional advice.
      > > >
      > > > Thanks, Duane
      > >
      >
    • jazzdoren2k3
      Ok, so I m ready to head home and start this. But, I m still not sure I fully understand. I take 2 18ounce boxes of corn flakes, grind them up, boil them in 2
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 10, 2009
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        Ok, so I'm ready to head home and start this. But, I'm still not sure I fully understand.

        I take 2 18ounce boxes of corn flakes, grind them up, boil them in 2 gallons of water, pull it from the heat then add 5lbs of corn meal? I dump all that into my fermenter, then dissolve 7lbs of sugar into a separate 2 gallons of water...add that to my fermenter...add tomato paste and epsom and miracle gro and vitamins per MUM...then add water to a total of 5 gallons and proper temperature...then aerate for 6 hours or so. Ferment down to a 6-7% abv with hydrometer, rack and settle (do I still use irish moss?), then distill.

        Correct?

        THANKS!
        --The Mad Hatter
      • jamesonbeam1
        Welp Jazz, Thats close to the way I do it. What you dont want to do is boil everything together. This was the mistake that Duane made. This is my method: 1.
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 10, 2009
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          Welp Jazz,

          Thats close to the way I do it.  What you dont want to do is boil everything together.  This was the mistake that Duane made.  This is my method:

          1.  Crush up Corn Flakes and bring about 1 to 2 gallons of water to a boil.  Add the flakes and bring down to just a simmer for about 10 minutes while stirring, or till nice and mushy (sorry for the techno lingo).  Since they are already cooked, they wont expand much.

          2.  Turn off heat, let cool down to around 171F (pasturizaion temperature) and add the corn meal. Note: if your going to add any enzymes for further conversion of starches, wait till it hits around 150F.  Let cool.

          3.  I invert the sugar - for every pound (2 cups), simmer 1 cup water and 2 tsp. lemon juice with sugar for 20 to 30 minutes.  Do not boil or else it will froth over and you will be banned from the kitchen....  This process hydrolizes sucrose into glucose and fructose and makes for a faster, cleaner fermentation (also saves the yeast a step since they use invertase to do this.

          4.  Proceed as you stated.  Put in fermenter and add water to 5 gallons.  Dont forget the aeration!!!

          Since most corn flakes average about 10% sugar by weight, you should end up with around a 10% ABV mash with the 7 lbs. sugar in 5 gallons.

          Now that you have made your first "sweet mash", start reading up on the sour mashing method to continue this process.  I usually take about 1/2 of the barm out of the bottom when fermentation is done and start another fermentation with this and more corn and about 40% of the backset from the previous distillation for the next reiteration.

          Nother Note: be careful with that epsoms salt - it usually contains sulpher.....

          Good Luck.

          Vino es Veritas,

          Jim aka Waldo.

          .

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jazzdoren2k3" <jazzvandoren@...> wrote:
          >
          > Ok, so I'm ready to head home and start this. But, I'm still not sure I fully understand.
          >
          > I take 2 18ounce boxes of corn flakes, grind them up, boil them in 2 gallons of water, pull it from the heat then add 5lbs of corn meal? I dump all that into my fermenter, then dissolve 7lbs of sugar into a separate 2 gallons of water...add that to my fermenter...add tomato paste and epsom and miracle gro and vitamins per MUM...then add water to a total of 5 gallons and proper temperature...then aerate for 6 hours or so. Ferment down to a 6-7% abv with hydrometer, rack and settle (do I still use irish moss?), then distill.
          >
          > Correct?
          >
          > THANKS!
          > --The Mad Hatter
          >

        • jamesonbeam1
          One more thing Mad, With all the vitamins and nutrients in the corn flakes and corn meal, you could skip the vitamin tablets, epsom salts and cut back a bit on
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 11, 2009
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            One more thing Mad,

            With all the vitamins and nutrients in the corn flakes and corn meal,
            you could skip the vitamin tablets, epsom salts and cut back a bit on
            the miracle-gro - usually I just use some for the nitrogen requirements.

            Vino es Veritas,

            Jim aka Waldo.
          • jazzdoren2k3
            Jim... Thanks for the heads up -- so NO epsom, NO daily vitamins, much less Miracle Gro. Got it...but, what about the tomato paste? And, I m a little lost on
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 12, 2009
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              Jim...

              Thanks for the heads up -- so NO epsom, NO daily vitamins, much less Miracle Gro. Got it...but, what about the tomato paste?

              And, I'm a little lost on the sucrose conversion. 2 tbsp lemon juice 2 cups sugar and 1 cup water (is what I think I read -- will go double check)...but do I do that over heat? Doesn't seem like enough water to dissolve everything. Does it take any length of time for the sucrose conversion to occur?

              Thanks Jim! I've got some excited neighbors now that I'm trying this one out...

              --Mad Hatter

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > One more thing Mad,
              >
              > With all the vitamins and nutrients in the corn flakes and corn meal,
              > you could skip the vitamin tablets, epsom salts and cut back a bit on
              > the miracle-gro - usually I just use some for the nitrogen requirements.
              >
              > Vino es Veritas,
              >
              > Jim aka Waldo.
              >
            • jazzdoren2k3
              Re-read the step on inverting the sugar...most questions answered (not sure why I couldn t remember it -- you very clearly said simmer, not boil, for 20-30
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 12, 2009
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                Re-read the step on inverting the sugar...most questions answered (not sure why I couldn't remember it -- you very clearly said simmer, not boil, for 20-30 min). So now I still have the same first question...1 cup of water will REALLY disolve 1 pound of sugar?? You said 20-30 minutes, is there something visible that will occur to let me know it's done?

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Welp Jazz,
                >
                > Thats close to the way I do it. What you dont want to do is boil
                > everything together. This was the mistake that Duane made. This is my
                > method:
                >
                > 1. Crush up Corn Flakes and bring about 1 to 2 gallons of water to a
                > boil. Add the flakes and bring down to just a simmer for about 10
                > minutes while stirring, or till nice and mushy (sorry for the techno
                > lingo). Since they are already cooked, they wont expand much.
                >
                > 2. Turn off heat, let cool down to around 171F (pasturizaion
                > temperature) and add the corn meal. Note: if your going to add any
                > enzymes for further conversion of starches, wait till it hits around
                > 150F. Let cool.
                >
                > 3. I invert the sugar - for every pound (2 cups), simmer 1 cup water
                > and 2 tsp. lemon juice with sugar for 20 to 30 minutes. Do not boil or
                > else it will froth over and you will be banned from the kitchen....
                > This process hydrolizes sucrose into glucose and fructose and makes for
                > a faster, cleaner fermentation (also saves the yeast a step since they
                > use invertase to do this.
                >
                > 4. Proceed as you stated. Put in fermenter and add water to 5 gallons.
                > Dont forget the aeration!!!
                >
                > Since most corn flakes average about 10% sugar by weight, you should end
                > up with around a 10% ABV mash with the 7 lbs. sugar in 5 gallons.
                >
                > Now that you have made your first "sweet mash", start reading up on the
                > sour mashing method to continue this process. I usually take about 1/2
                > of the barm out of the bottom when fermentation is done and start
                > another fermentation with this and more corn and about 40% of the
                > backset from the previous distillation for the next reiteration.
                >
                > Nother Note: be careful with that epsoms salt - it usually contains
                > sulpher.....
                >
                > Good Luck.
                >
                > Vino es Veritas,
                >
                > Jim aka Waldo.
                >
                > .
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jazzdoren2k3" <jazzvandoren@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Ok, so I'm ready to head home and start this. But, I'm still not sure
                > I fully understand.
                > >
                > > I take 2 18ounce boxes of corn flakes, grind them up, boil them in 2
                > gallons of water, pull it from the heat then add 5lbs of corn meal? I
                > dump all that into my fermenter, then dissolve 7lbs of sugar into a
                > separate 2 gallons of water...add that to my fermenter...add tomato
                > paste and epsom and miracle gro and vitamins per MUM...then add water to
                > a total of 5 gallons and proper temperature...then aerate for 6 hours or
                > so. Ferment down to a 6-7% abv with hydrometer, rack and settle (do I
                > still use irish moss?), then distill.
                > >
                > > Correct?
                > >
                > > THANKS!
                > > --The Mad Hatter
                > >
                >
              • jamesonbeam1
                Ok Mad, What we are doing here is basically replicating Uncle Jesse s famous simple sour mash - the UJSSM method, but instead of using cracked corn with no
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 12, 2009
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                  Ok Mad,

                  What we are doing here is basically replicating Uncle Jesse's famous simple sour mash - the UJSSM method, but instead of using cracked corn with no mashing, we are using corn flakes and corn meal with some mashing (however no enzymes are being used as in real mashing with malted barley).  The sugar is what produces the alcohol, while the corn adds the flavors and nutrients.

                  Mashing the corn tends to bring out the flavors more then raw corn.  If you look at his recipe:

                  For a 5 gallon mash:

                  • 5 gallons soft, filtered water.
                  • 7 lbs cracked corn. 6-8 pieces/kernel is the proper crack. If using bird feed, make sure it is perishable, or in other words is free of preservatives.
                  • 7 lbs of granulated sugar.
                  • 1 tbsp yeast (distillers yeast if available.)

                  You will see its the same ratio for everything...  Now one thing missing here for the "first sweet mash" is a way to reduce the pH level of the fermentation.  You want to start with a pH of about 5.0 to 5.6 (acidic -7.0 being neutral).  Wine makers like it alot lower, since wine ferments for a long time, but for our needs, this range is fine since it only will be fermenting for about a week.

                  While adding the backset for your second fermentation (sour mash) will reduce this pH, the use of Tomato paste helps to accomplish this for the first.  Tis a good idea to get some pH test strips or a pH titration kit to test this.

                  The other way of reducing the pH is through the sugar inversion with citric acid.  The idea here is that yeast cannot digest sucrose, which is a is a disaccharide of glucose and fructose with the molecular formula C12H22O11.   Yeast need to convert sucrose into its monosaccharide components of glucose and fructose through the invertase enzyme before being able to digest it to produce alcohol.  By inverting the sugar first, we are helping them poor yeasties in their job of giving us alcohol and saving them a step.

                  For 7 lbs. sugar, I would bring 7 cups water and 1/4th cup lemon juice (or 1/2 cup orange juice or 2 tsp. citric acid) to a boil.  Reduce heat to medium and add sugar.  Stir and let simmer for 20 to 30 minutes till it turns a bit golden in color.  It will be a bit thick, but dont worry.

                  Again, when mashing the corn flakes, dont add the corn meal till the temp is about 171F which will pasteurize it and kill off any nasties.  I sometimes add ice cubes to cool it down faster.

                  Might be a good idea to read through Uncle Jesse's procedure on sour mashing also: http://wiki.homedistiller.org/index.php/Uncle_Jesse's_Simple_Sour_Mash_Method

                  Again good luck and feel free to ask any questions.

                  Vino es Veritas,

                  Jim aka Waldo.

                   

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jazzdoren2k3" <jazzvandoren@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Jim...
                  >
                  > Thanks for the heads up -- so NO epsom, NO daily vitamins, much less Miracle Gro. Got it...but, what about the tomato paste?
                  >
                  > And, I'm a little lost on the sucrose conversion. 2 tbsp lemon juice 2 cups sugar and 1 cup water (is what I think I read -- will go double check)...but do I do that over heat? Doesn't seem like enough water to dissolve everything. Does it take any length of time for the sucrose conversion to occur?
                  >
                  > Thanks Jim! I've got some excited neighbors now that I'm trying this one out...
                  >
                  > --Mad Hatter
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > One more thing Mad,
                  > >
                  > > With all the vitamins and nutrients in the corn flakes and corn meal,
                  > > you could skip the vitamin tablets, epsom salts and cut back a bit on
                  > > the miracle-gro - usually I just use some for the nitrogen requirements.
                  > >
                  > > Vino es Veritas,
                  > >
                  > > Jim aka Waldo.
                  > >
                  >

                • jazzdoren2k3
                  Jim. Wow. Thank you. --Mad
                  Message 8 of 20 , Nov 12, 2009
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                    Jim.
                    Wow.
                    Thank you.
                    --Mad
                    <speechless>

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Ok Mad,
                    >
                    > What we are doing here is basically replicating Uncle Jesse's famous
                    > simple sour mash - the UJSSM method, but instead of using cracked corn
                    > with no mashing, we are using corn flakes and corn meal with some
                    > mashing (however no enzymes are being used as in real mashing with
                    > malted barley). The sugar is what produces the alcohol, while the corn
                    > adds the flavors and nutrients.
                    >
                    > Mashing the corn tends to bring out the flavors more then raw corn. If
                    > you look at his recipe:
                    >
                    > For a 5 gallon mash:
                    >
                    > * 5 gallons soft, filtered water
                    > <http://wiki.homedistiller.org/Water> . * 7 lbs cracked corn
                    > <http://wiki.homedistiller.org/Corn> . 6-8 pieces/kernel is the proper
                    > crack. If using bird feed, make sure it is perishable, or in other words
                    > is free of preservatives. * 7 lbs of granulated sugar
                    > <http://wiki.homedistiller.org/Sugar> . * 1 tbsp yeast
                    > <http://wiki.homedistiller.org/Yeast> (distillers yeast if available.)
                    >
                    > You will see its the same ratio for everything... Now one thing missing
                    > here for the "first sweet mash" is a way to reduce the pH level of the
                    > fermentation. You want to start with a pH of about 5.0 to 5.6 (acidic
                    > -7.0 being neutral). Wine makers like it alot lower, since wine
                    > ferments for a long time, but for our needs, this range is fine since it
                    > only will be fermenting for about a week.
                    >
                    > While adding the backset for your second fermentation (sour mash) will
                    > reduce this pH, the use of Tomato paste helps to accomplish this for the
                    > first. Tis a good idea to get some pH test strips or a pH titration kit
                    > to test this.
                    >
                    > The other way of reducing the pH is through the sugar inversion with
                    > citric acid. The idea here is that yeast cannot digest sucrose, which
                    > is a is a disaccharide <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disaccharide> of
                    > glucose <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose> and fructose
                    > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose> with the molecular formula
                    > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_formula> C12H22O11. Yeast
                    > need to convert sucrose into its monosaccharide components of glucose
                    > and fructose through the invertase enzyme before being able to digest it
                    > to produce alcohol. By inverting the sugar first, we are helping them
                    > poor yeasties in their job of giving us alcohol and saving them a step.
                    >
                    > For 7 lbs. sugar, I would bring 7 cups water and 1/4th cup lemon juice
                    > (or 1/2 cup orange juice or 2 tsp. citric acid) to a boil. Reduce heat
                    > to medium and add sugar. Stir and let simmer for 20 to 30 minutes till
                    > it turns a bit golden in color. It will be a bit thick, but dont worry.
                    >
                    > Again, when mashing the corn flakes, dont add the corn meal till the
                    > temp is about 171F which will pasteurize it and kill off any nasties. I
                    > sometimes add ice cubes to cool it down faster.
                    >
                    > Might be a good idea to read through Uncle Jesse's procedure on sour
                    > mashing also:
                    > http://wiki.homedistiller.org/index.php/Uncle_Jesse's_Simple_Sour_Mash_M\
                    > ethod
                    > <http://wiki.homedistiller.org/index.php/Uncle_Jesse's_Simple_Sour_Mash_\
                    > Method>
                    >
                    > Again good luck and feel free to ask any questions.
                    >
                    > Vino es Veritas,
                    >
                    > Jim aka Waldo.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jazzdoren2k3" <jazzvandoren@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Jim...
                    > >
                    > > Thanks for the heads up -- so NO epsom, NO daily vitamins, much less
                    > Miracle Gro. Got it...but, what about the tomato paste?
                    > >
                    > > And, I'm a little lost on the sucrose conversion. 2 tbsp lemon juice 2
                    > cups sugar and 1 cup water (is what I think I read -- will go double
                    > check)...but do I do that over heat? Doesn't seem like enough water to
                    > dissolve everything. Does it take any length of time for the sucrose
                    > conversion to occur?
                    > >
                    > > Thanks Jim! I've got some excited neighbors now that I'm trying this
                    > one out...
                    > >
                    > > --Mad Hatter
                    > >
                    > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
                    > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > One more thing Mad,
                    > > >
                    > > > With all the vitamins and nutrients in the corn flakes and corn
                    > meal,
                    > > > you could skip the vitamin tablets, epsom salts and cut back a bit
                    > on
                    > > > the miracle-gro - usually I just use some for the nitrogen
                    > requirements.
                    > > >
                    > > > Vino es Veritas,
                    > > >
                    > > > Jim aka Waldo.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • burrows206
                    Hi Jazzdoren, If you get a heavy cast iron frying pan and scatter 1 pound of sugar evenly on it and put it on a moderate heat and keep the sugar moving, by
                    Message 9 of 20 , Nov 12, 2009
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                      Hi Jazzdoren,

                           If you get a heavy cast iron frying pan and scatter 1 pound of sugar evenly on it and put it on a moderate heat and keep the sugar moving, by shuffling the pan back and forth it will start to slowly melt, at about ¨ø melted and getting runny you can use a wooden spoon (not metal) to finish the melt.  If you keep on moderate heating it gets darker hotter and more burnt looking and when you get it to the colour you want throw on a half cup of cold water and this will flash boil so stand back as you do it.   Remove from heat and mix.  You  now have caramel to colour your booze.

                           Now if 1 pound of sugar will melt sugar under a moderate heat to a runny consistency to make caramel, 1 cup of water will more than easily melt 1 pound of sugar with a moderate heat to a syrup . 

                           When the mods here i.e. Jameson on the forum tells you these things.  They do so from their own experience and know that these things work, and if he says one cup of water will do it, you can take that to the bank and be 100% sure that one cup will do it.

                      Geoff

                       

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jazzdoren2k3" <jazzvandoren@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Re-read the step on inverting the sugar...most questions answered (not sure why I couldn't remember it -- you very clearly said simmer, not boil, for 20-30 min). So now I still have the same first question...1 cup of water will REALLY disolve 1 pound of sugar?? You said 20-30 minutes, is there something visible that will occur to let me know it's done?
                      >
                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Welp Jazz,
                      > >
                      > > Thats close to the way I do it. What you dont want to do is boil
                      > > everything together. This was the mistake that Duane made. This is my
                      > > method:
                      > >
                      > > 1. Crush up Corn Flakes and bring about 1 to 2 gallons of water to a
                      > > boil. Add the flakes and bring down to just a simmer for about 10
                      > > minutes while stirring, or till nice and mushy (sorry for the techno
                      > > lingo). Since they are already cooked, they wont expand much.
                      > >
                      > > 2. Turn off heat, let cool down to around 171F (pasturizaion
                      > > temperature) and add the corn meal. Note: if your going to add any
                      > > enzymes for further conversion of starches, wait till it hits around
                      > > 150F. Let cool.
                      > >
                      > > 3. I invert the sugar - for every pound (2 cups), simmer 1 cup water
                      > > and 2 tsp. lemon juice with sugar for 20 to 30 minutes. Do not boil or
                      > > else it will froth over and you will be banned from the kitchen....
                      > > This process hydrolizes sucrose into glucose and fructose and makes for
                      > > a faster, cleaner fermentation (also saves the yeast a step since they
                      > > use invertase to do this.
                      > >
                      > > 4. Proceed as you stated. Put in fermenter and add water to 5 gallons.
                      > > Dont forget the aeration!!!
                      > >
                      > > Since most corn flakes average about 10% sugar by weight, you should end
                      > > up with around a 10% ABV mash with the 7 lbs. sugar in 5 gallons.
                      > >
                      > > Now that you have made your first "sweet mash", start reading up on the
                      > > sour mashing method to continue this process. I usually take about 1/2
                      > > of the barm out of the bottom when fermentation is done and start
                      > > another fermentation with this and more corn and about 40% of the
                      > > backset from the previous distillation for the next reiteration.
                      > >
                      > > Nother Note: be careful with that epsoms salt - it usually contains
                      > > sulpher.....
                      > >
                      > > Good Luck.
                      > >
                      > > Vino es Veritas,
                      > >
                      > > Jim aka Waldo.
                      > >
                      > > .
                      > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jazzdoren2k3" <jazzvandoren@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Ok, so I'm ready to head home and start this. But, I'm still not sure
                      > > I fully understand.
                      > > >
                      > > > I take 2 18ounce boxes of corn flakes, grind them up, boil them in 2
                      > > gallons of water, pull it from the heat then add 5lbs of corn meal? I
                      > > dump all that into my fermenter, then dissolve 7lbs of sugar into a
                      > > separate 2 gallons of water...add that to my fermenter...add tomato
                      > > paste and epsom and miracle gro and vitamins per MUM...then add water to
                      > > a total of 5 gallons and proper temperature...then aerate for 6 hours or
                      > > so. Ferment down to a 6-7% abv with hydrometer, rack and settle (do I
                      > > still use irish moss?), then distill.
                      > > >
                      > > > Correct?
                      > > >
                      > > > THANKS!
                      > > > --The Mad Hatter
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • jazzdoren2k3
                      Alright Jim -- I followed your instructions to a T and now have some happily fermenting sweet mash. Once I distill it, what filtration processes do you
                      Message 10 of 20 , Nov 15, 2009
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                        Alright Jim -- I followed your instructions to a "T" and now have some happily fermenting sweet mash. Once I distill it, what filtration processes do you recommend? I think I saw once that carbon filtration was frowned upon b/c it took too many flavors away, but that angel blasting was acceptable? Also, how long can a sour mash sit for while I'm away? I was told my sugar washes could sit for a few weeks while I'm out on the road. Can I get away with leaving a sour mash sitting in the fermenter for upwards of 3-4 weeks? Thanks again...and I hope you didn't take offense with the whole 1 pound in 1 cup water thing -- I wasn't trying to challenge your knowledge.

                        --Mad Hatter

                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206" <jeffrey.burrows@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi Jazzdoren,
                        >
                        > If you get a heavy cast iron frying pan and scatter 1 pound of
                        > sugar evenly on it and put it on a moderate heat and keep the sugar
                        > moving, by shuffling the pan back and forth it will start to slowly
                        > melt, at about ¨ø melted and getting runny you can use a wooden spoon
                        > (not metal) to finish the melt. If you keep on moderate heating it gets
                        > darker hotter and more burnt looking and when you get it to the colour
                        > you want throw on a half cup of cold water and this will flash boil so
                        > stand back as you do it. Remove from heat and mix. You now have
                        > caramel to colour your booze.
                        >
                        > Now if 1 pound of sugar will melt sugar under a moderate heat to a
                        > runny consistency to make caramel, 1 cup of water will more than easily
                        > melt 1 pound of sugar with a moderate heat to a syrup .
                        >
                        > When the mods here i.e. Jameson on the forum tells you these
                        > things. They do so from their own experience and know that these things
                        > work, and if he says one cup of water will do it, you can take that to
                        > the bank and be 100% sure that one cup will do it.
                        >
                        > Geoff
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jazzdoren2k3" <jazzvandoren@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Re-read the step on inverting the sugar...most questions answered (not
                        > sure why I couldn't remember it -- you very clearly said simmer, not
                        > boil, for 20-30 min). So now I still have the same first question...1
                        > cup of water will REALLY disolve 1 pound of sugar?? You said 20-30
                        > minutes, is there something visible that will occur to let me know it's
                        > done?
                        > >
                        > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
                        > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Welp Jazz,
                        > > >
                        > > > Thats close to the way I do it. What you dont want to do is boil
                        > > > everything together. This was the mistake that Duane made. This is
                        > my
                        > > > method:
                        > > >
                        > > > 1. Crush up Corn Flakes and bring about 1 to 2 gallons of water to a
                        > > > boil. Add the flakes and bring down to just a simmer for about 10
                        > > > minutes while stirring, or till nice and mushy (sorry for the techno
                        > > > lingo). Since they are already cooked, they wont expand much.
                        > > >
                        > > > 2. Turn off heat, let cool down to around 171F (pasturizaion
                        > > > temperature) and add the corn meal. Note: if your going to add any
                        > > > enzymes for further conversion of starches, wait till it hits around
                        > > > 150F. Let cool.
                        > > >
                        > > > 3. I invert the sugar - for every pound (2 cups), simmer 1 cup water
                        > > > and 2 tsp. lemon juice with sugar for 20 to 30 minutes. Do not boil
                        > or
                        > > > else it will froth over and you will be banned from the kitchen....
                        > > > This process hydrolizes sucrose into glucose and fructose and makes
                        > for
                        > > > a faster, cleaner fermentation (also saves the yeast a step since
                        > they
                        > > > use invertase to do this.
                        > > >
                        > > > 4. Proceed as you stated. Put in fermenter and add water to 5
                        > gallons.
                        > > > Dont forget the aeration!!!
                        > > >
                        > > > Since most corn flakes average about 10% sugar by weight, you should
                        > end
                        > > > up with around a 10% ABV mash with the 7 lbs. sugar in 5 gallons.
                        > > >
                        > > > Now that you have made your first "sweet mash", start reading up on
                        > the
                        > > > sour mashing method to continue this process. I usually take about
                        > 1/2
                        > > > of the barm out of the bottom when fermentation is done and start
                        > > > another fermentation with this and more corn and about 40% of the
                        > > > backset from the previous distillation for the next reiteration.
                        > > >
                        > > > Nother Note: be careful with that epsoms salt - it usually contains
                        > > > sulpher.....
                        > > >
                        > > > Good Luck.
                        > > >
                        > > > Vino es Veritas,
                        > > >
                        > > > Jim aka Waldo.
                        > > >
                        > > > .
                        > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jazzdoren2k3"
                        > <jazzvandoren@>
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Ok, so I'm ready to head home and start this. But, I'm still not
                        > sure
                        > > > I fully understand.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I take 2 18ounce boxes of corn flakes, grind them up, boil them in
                        > 2
                        > > > gallons of water, pull it from the heat then add 5lbs of corn meal?
                        > I
                        > > > dump all that into my fermenter, then dissolve 7lbs of sugar into a
                        > > > separate 2 gallons of water...add that to my fermenter...add tomato
                        > > > paste and epsom and miracle gro and vitamins per MUM...then add
                        > water to
                        > > > a total of 5 gallons and proper temperature...then aerate for 6
                        > hours or
                        > > > so. Ferment down to a 6-7% abv with hydrometer, rack and settle (do
                        > I
                        > > > still use irish moss?), then distill.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Correct?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > THANKS!
                        > > > > --The Mad Hatter
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • jamesonbeam1
                        Great Mad, Now a few things... First, I usually just let mine ferment out till it start clearing - about 4 days to ferment and 2 days to clear. Or, you can
                        Message 11 of 20 , Nov 15, 2009
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                          Great Mad,

                          Now a few things...  First, I usually just let mine ferment out till it start clearing - about 4 days to ferment and 2 days to clear.  Or, you can try that irish moss after it stops fermenting.  What you want to do after it finishes, is rack it off the barm (the spent yeast and corn) before you stick it the boiler to keep the solids out. 

                          As far as filtering it after distillation, I don't use anything - especially activated carbon.  Yes, you can aireate it if you want to smooth it quicker, but I just save the feints for the next distillation and drink it as "white dawg" from the first distillation.  Now for the second fermentation and distillation, you can start putting on oak if ya want.

                          Regarding waiting 4 weeks for the second sour mash, dang that will be a bad idea.  Sour mashing is a continuous process so you might want to save about 1/2 of the barm and 40% of the backset and stick it in you refrige till you get back.  You dont want to ferment it and let it sitting on the corn for over a week or so - its Not like sugar washes or wines, or fruit musts my friend.

                          Maybe some other sour mashing experts here have some idea....

                          Vino es Veritas,

                          Jim aka Waldo.

                          (and no, no offence taken,  many people have questioned me on the process of inverting sugar;))


                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jazzdoren2k3" <jazzvandoren@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Alright Jim -- I followed your instructions to a "T" and now have some happily fermenting sweet mash. Once I distill it, what filtration processes do you recommend? I think I saw once that carbon filtration was frowned upon b/c it took too many flavors away, but that angel blasting was acceptable? Also, how long can a sour mash sit for while I'm away? I was told my sugar washes could sit for a few weeks while I'm out on the road. Can I get away with leaving a sour mash sitting in the fermenter for upwards of 3-4 weeks? Thanks again...and I hope you didn't take offense with the whole 1 pound in 1 cup water thing -- I wasn't trying to challenge your knowledge.
                          >
                          > --Mad Hatter
                          >
                          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206" jeffrey.burrows@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Hi Jazzdoren,
                          > >
                          > > If you get a heavy cast iron frying pan and scatter 1 pound of
                          > > sugar evenly on it and put it on a moderate heat and keep the sugar
                          > > moving, by shuffling the pan back and forth it will start to slowly
                          > > melt, at about ¨ø melted and getting runny you can use a wooden spoon
                          > > (not metal) to finish the melt. If you keep on moderate heating it gets
                          > > darker hotter and more burnt looking and when you get it to the colour
                          > > you want throw on a half cup of cold water and this will flash boil so
                          > > stand back as you do it. Remove from heat and mix. You now have
                          > > caramel to colour your booze.
                          > >
                          > > Now if 1 pound of sugar will melt sugar under a moderate heat to a
                          > > runny consistency to make caramel, 1 cup of water will more than easily
                          > > melt 1 pound of sugar with a moderate heat to a syrup .
                          > >
                          > > When the mods here i.e. Jameson on the forum tells you these
                          > > things. They do so from their own experience and know that these things
                          > > work, and if he says one cup of water will do it, you can take that to
                          > > the bank and be 100% sure that one cup will do it.
                          > >
                          > > Geoff
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jazzdoren2k3" <jazzvandoren@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Re-read the step on inverting the sugar...most questions answered (not
                          > > sure why I couldn't remember it -- you very clearly said simmer, not
                          > > boil, for 20-30 min). So now I still have the same first question...1
                          > > cup of water will REALLY disolve 1 pound of sugar?? You said 20-30
                          > > minutes, is there something visible that will occur to let me know it's
                          > > done?
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
                          > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Welp Jazz,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Thats close to the way I do it. What you dont want to do is boil
                          > > > > everything together. This was the mistake that Duane made. This is
                          > > my
                          > > > > method:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > 1. Crush up Corn Flakes and bring about 1 to 2 gallons of water to a
                          > > > > boil. Add the flakes and bring down to just a simmer for about 10
                          > > > > minutes while stirring, or till nice and mushy (sorry for the techno
                          > > > > lingo). Since they are already cooked, they wont expand much.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > 2. Turn off heat, let cool down to around 171F (pasturizaion
                          > > > > temperature) and add the corn meal. Note: if your going to add any
                          > > > > enzymes for further conversion of starches, wait till it hits around
                          > > > > 150F. Let cool.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > 3. I invert the sugar - for every pound (2 cups), simmer 1 cup water
                          > > > > and 2 tsp. lemon juice with sugar for 20 to 30 minutes. Do not boil
                          > > or
                          > > > > else it will froth over and you will be banned from the kitchen....
                          > > > > This process hydrolizes sucrose into glucose and fructose and makes
                          > > for
                          > > > > a faster, cleaner fermentation (also saves the yeast a step since
                          > > they
                          > > > > use invertase to do this.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > 4. Proceed as you stated. Put in fermenter and add water to 5
                          > > gallons.
                          > > > > Dont forget the aeration!!!
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Since most corn flakes average about 10% sugar by weight, you should
                          > > end
                          > > > > up with around a 10% ABV mash with the 7 lbs. sugar in 5 gallons.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Now that you have made your first "sweet mash", start reading up on
                          > > the
                          > > > > sour mashing method to continue this process. I usually take about
                          > > 1/2
                          > > > > of the barm out of the bottom when fermentation is done and start
                          > > > > another fermentation with this and more corn and about 40% of the
                          > > > > backset from the previous distillation for the next reiteration.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Nother Note: be careful with that epsoms salt - it usually contains
                          > > > > sulpher.....
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Good Luck.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Vino es Veritas,
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Jim aka Waldo.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > .
                          > > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jazzdoren2k3"
                          > > <jazzvandoren@>
                          > > > > wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Ok, so I'm ready to head home and start this. But, I'm still not
                          > > sure
                          > > > > I fully understand.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I take 2 18ounce boxes of corn flakes, grind them up, boil them in
                          > > 2
                          > > > > gallons of water, pull it from the heat then add 5lbs of corn meal?
                          > > I
                          > > > > dump all that into my fermenter, then dissolve 7lbs of sugar into a
                          > > > > separate 2 gallons of water...add that to my fermenter...add tomato
                          > > > > paste and epsom and miracle gro and vitamins per MUM...then add
                          > > water to
                          > > > > a total of 5 gallons and proper temperature...then aerate for 6
                          > > hours or
                          > > > > so. Ferment down to a 6-7% abv with hydrometer, rack and settle (do
                          > > I
                          > > > > still use irish moss?), then distill.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Correct?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > THANKS!
                          > > > > > --The Mad Hatter
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >

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