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Re: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies for beginners

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  • Jan Ooms
    Hi YMMV, I hope that you drink all that gutrot yourself. You wouldn t want it on your concience that you are slowly poisoning all your drinking mates. Please
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 2, 2009
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      Hi YMMV,
      I hope that you drink all that gutrot yourself. You wouldn't want it on your concience that you are slowly poisoning all your drinking mates.
      Please stay away from plastic, if you don't, you will be a surgeons delight in future.
      There is enough information in the archives about plastic in relation to alcohol useage and storage.
      Do not take any notice of Multi Nationals and their statements in regard to plastic, pvc etc etc.
      Their bottomline dictates what is healthy for you and us.
      Best Regards,
      Jan.
       
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 11:29 PM
      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies for beginners

       

      I've found that at ~35% or lower it seems to be okay, but above that it gets flavours from the plastic.
      YMMV

      Robbie Mac
      Sometime tinkerer and sometimes it even works....


      -----Original Message-----
      From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@ yahoo.com>
      To: new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:21 am
      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies for beginners



      Hi All,
      After being critiqued too many times on my beliefs in using plastics in the hobby of distilling, would any of you other 3,648 members here in New Distillers care to comment on Schnakeus' recommendation to Andy (a brand new member and distiller) on this statement:
      "Distill 4L, removing first 2Tsp of fusels, down to approx 1.1 Litre(using a 4L pot still) Don't collect tails, throw em away. A couple weeks in a plastic milk jug with a tsp med toast oak chips per litre really mellows."
      Thanks,
      Vino es Veritas,
      Jim aka Waldo.
       

       

    • tgfoitwoods
      Okay, I m open to the fact that many, perhaps even all, plastics leach toxins into high-ABV spirit, but can anyone tell me *which* toxins are leached out of
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 2, 2009
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        Okay, I'm open to the fact that many, perhaps even all, plastics leach toxins into high-ABV spirit, but can anyone tell me *which* toxins are leached out of medium-density polyethylene, the plastic our milk jugs are made from?

        Except for the number of carbons in the molecular chain, polyethylene is chemically identical to paraffin wax, generally considered to be chemically inert. Also, because of the physical properties of MDPE, I'd be surprised if plasticizers are included, and our jugs use no coloring agents.

        So I want to get past yes or no, good or bad, and get to *what*. Does anyone here know?

        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller (who doesn't store in *any* plastic)

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Ooms" <jkooms@...> wrote:
        ----snip----
        > Please stay away from plastic, if you don't, you will be a surgeons delight in future.
        > There is enough information in the archives about plastic in relation to alcohol useage and storage.
        ----snip----
      • jamesonbeam1
        OK Guys, Didn t mean to start a flame war here. I was being a bit facetious and tounge in cheek when asking for comments on Schnakeus recommendation to
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 2, 2009
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          OK Guys,

          Didn't mean to start a flame war here.  I was being a bit facetious and "tounge in cheek" when asking for comments on Schnakeus' recommendation to Andy about using plastic milk bottles to age 60% (120 proof) rum in.

          To try and put this in perspective, plastics are fine for primary fermentations of up to 20% or so ABV.  This is what would be considered "pre-distilled" product.  For distilling and "post-distilled" products we are going to drink, there are only certain plastics that are ethanol tolerant, and even then, drinkable stuff over 100 proof should not be stored in them for any length of time.  Riku, a moderator and well known still designer here can tell you which plastics are ok for this (like the Amazing Still).  However, used plastic milk containers definitely DO NOT contain one of these.....

          The only approved and recommended plastic containers for holding drinkable ethanol products for any prolonged period of time (again under 50% or 100 proof), are the specially coated PET liquor bottles they came out with about 10 years ago.  These have special coatings which form a barrier between the ethanol and the plastic.

          Please do not store or try and age your "barrel strength" products in any type of plastic containers.  USE GLASS or oak barrels.  PLEASE.

          Remember this Schnakeus for Gosh sake.  Below is a posting by Harry from Advanced Distillers on PET bottles and their coatings.

          Vino es Veritas,

          Jim aka Waldo.

          repost of Distillers group msg# 39312 

          Re: Angels share?

          --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:

          >
          > Good information Harry,
          >
          > Now few more things. As an example polypropylene seems to be OK for
          > medium term STORAGE of medium strength ethanol. That's not aging but
          > storage. PET bottles I've had trouble with. I once stored some 30-40%
          > low wines temporarily (for few hours) into a thin walled pet bottle
          > and it deformed. What we need to remember here is that we are not
          > dealing exclusively with ethanol, rather flavored drinks and
          > especially low-wines have many other higher+lower boiling point
          > alcohols + other chemicals. The combined effect of all these is quite
          > impossible to determine without empirical testing.
          >
          > Cheers, Riku

           

          I'm in the middle of doing up a paper on plastic containers in distilling.  It'll take me a while to finish.  But as to your experiences with PET bottles...time & technology march on relentlessly.  The reason they've been able to use PET for beverages like Early Times & Ancient Age whiskey for the last 10 years  (and I believe Jim Beam is now using it), is because of the great advances in coating or barrier substances and processes. 

          The pet bottles of today are a far cry from those of even 3 or 4 years ago.  There's also PET bottles tailor-made for specific fills, like carbonated drinks and hot-fill juices in PET bottles that don't distort and whose contents have a shelf life requirement of longer than 9 months.

            The barrier coatings range from the organic coatings (epoxyamine aka Bairocade) developed in the mid 1990s to lengthen the shelf life of the smaller soft drink sizes in hotter climates,  then for beer, to the latest plasma-applied inorganic coatings, using carbon or silicon.

          It's a brave new world, particularly for we adventurous distillers.


          Slainte!
          regards Harry


           

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Ooms" <jkooms@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi YMMV,
          > I hope that you drink all that gutrot yourself. You wouldn't want it on your concience that you are slowly poisoning all your drinking mates.
          > Please stay away from plastic, if you don't, you will be a surgeons delight in future.
          > There is enough information in the archives about plastic in relation to alcohol useage and storage.
          > Do not take any notice of Multi Nationals and their statements in regard to plastic, pvc etc etc.
          > Their bottomline dictates what is healthy for you and us.
          > Best Regards,
          > Jan.
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: macrobert@...
          > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 11:29 PM
          > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies for beginners
          >
          >
          >
          > I've found that at ~35% or lower it seems to be okay, but above that it gets flavours from the plastic.
          > YMMV
          >
          >
          > Robbie Mac
          > Sometime tinkerer and sometimes it even works....
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: jamesonbeam1 jamesonbeam1@...
          > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:21 am
          > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies for beginners
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi All,
          > After being critiqued too many times on my beliefs in using plastics in the hobby of distilling, would any of you other 3,648 members here in New Distillers care to comment on Schnakeus' recommendation to Andy (a brand new member and distiller) on this statement:
          > "Distill 4L, removing first 2Tsp of fusels, down to approx 1.1 Litre(using a 4L pot still) Don't collect tails, throw em away. A couple weeks in a plastic milk jug with a tsp med toast oak chips per litre really mellows."
          > Thanks,
          > Vino es Veritas,
          > Jim aka Waldo.
          >

        • jamesonbeam1
          Hi ZB, Not sure what they all are or do, but heres a few. Vino es Veritas, Jim aka Waldo. Toxins, Endocrine Disruptors And Carcinogens That Migrate From The
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 2, 2009
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            Hi ZB,

            Not sure what they all are or do, but heres a few.

            Vino es Veritas,

            Jim aka Waldo.

            Toxins, Endocrine Disruptors And Carcinogens That Migrate From The Molecules Of Different Plastic Containers To Their Contents

            Polyethylene Glycol /PEG
            Moderately toxic, eye irritant and possible carcinogen. Many glycols produce severe acidosis, central nervous system damage and congestion. Can cause convulsions, mutations, and surface EEG changes. Found in cosmetics, body products, foods, lotions.

            PET: Polyethylene Terephthalate

            Used for: Soda Bottles, Water Bottles, Peanut Butter Jars, Cooking Oil Bottles

            What migrates from plastic container to contents: Acetaldehyde

            HDPE: High-Density Polyethylene

            Used for: Milk Jugs, Detergent bottles, Plastic Bags, Yogurt Cups

            What migrates from plastic container to contents: Antioxidants, BHT, Chimassorb 81, Irganox PS 800, Irganix 1076, Irganox 1010

            PVC: Polyvinyl Chloride

            Used for: Water Bottles, Salad Dressing Bottles, Detergent Bottles, Cooking Oil Bottles, Shampoo Bottles, Mouth Wash Bottles, Meat Wrap, Also: Babies' Teething Rings, Pacifiers, Nipples and Toys (Barbie for example).

            What migrates from plastic container to contents: Plasticizers (Lead, Cadmium, Mercury, Phthalates and the carcinogen, Diethyl Hexyphosphate)

            LDPE: Low-Density Polyethylene

            Used for: Produce Bags, Food Storage Containers

            What migrates from plastic container to contents: Antioxidants, BHT, Chimassorb 81, Irganox PS 800, Irganix 1076, Irganox 1010

            PP: Polypropylene

            Used for: Bottle Caps, Drinking Straws

            What migrates from plastic container to contents: BHT, Chimassorb 81, Irganox PS 800, Irganix 1076, Irganox 1010

            PS: Polystyrene

            Used for: Meat Trays, Foam Take-Out Food Containers & Cups (not in Berkeley!), Foam Packing Materials

            What migrates from plastic container to contents: Styrene (traces found in nearly everyone's body fat)

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
            >
            > Okay, I'm open to the fact that many, perhaps even all, plastics leach toxins into high-ABV spirit, but can anyone tell me *which* toxins are leached out of medium-density polyethylene, the plastic our milk jugs are made from?
            >
            > Except for the number of carbons in the molecular chain, polyethylene is chemically identical to paraffin wax, generally considered to be chemically inert. Also, because of the physical properties of MDPE, I'd be surprised if plasticizers are included, and our jugs use no coloring agents.
            >
            > So I want to get past yes or no, good or bad, and get to *what*. Does anyone here know?
            >
            > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller (who doesn't store in *any* plastic)
            >
            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Ooms" jkooms@ wrote:
            > ----snip----
            > > Please stay away from plastic, if you don't, you will be a surgeons delight in future.
            > > There is enough information in the archives about plastic in relation to alcohol useage and storage.
            > ----snip----
            >

          • Paul Smith
            You can add Bispheno-A (BPA) to that list, a suspected carcinogen and (I can t remember the word, but..) it also affects how sex of an animal is expressed
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 2, 2009
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              You can add Bispheno-A (BPA) to that list, a suspected carcinogen and (I can't remember the word, but..) it also affects how sex of an animal is expressed (males less obviously so [smaller penis/testes, low sperm counts], females often sterile).
               
              It's a plasticiser that is added to most food grade plastics, in high density PET is keeps it from forming razor sharp shards when it breaks, in the lower density types it just makes the flexible, and we're only taking PPT addition rates at most! Biological effects start at PPB rates....
               
              OH yeah the multi-nationals recon it's totally safe, but until I see evidence that the findings made to date are WRONG I won't use plastics unless it's unavoidable.
               
              P.

              --- On Mon, 2/11/09, jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:

              From: jamesonbeam1 <jamesonbeam1@...>
              Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies for beginners
              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Received: Monday, 2 November, 2009, 11:34 PM

               
              Hi ZB,
              Not sure what they all are or do, but heres a few.
              Vino es Veritas,
              Jim aka Waldo.

              Toxins, Endocrine Disruptors And Carcinogens That Migrate From The Molecules Of Different Plastic Containers To Their Contents

              Polyethylene Glycol /PEG
              Moderately toxic, eye irritant and possible carcinogen. Many glycols produce severe acidosis, central nervous system damage and congestion. Can cause convulsions, mutations, and surface EEG changes. Found in cosmetics, body products, foods, lotions.
              PET: Polyethylene Terephthalate
              Used for: Soda Bottles, Water Bottles, Peanut Butter Jars, Cooking Oil Bottles
              What migrates from plastic container to contents: Acetaldehyde
              HDPE: High-Density Polyethylene
              Used for: Milk Jugs, Detergent bottles, Plastic Bags, Yogurt Cups
              What migrates from plastic container to contents: Antioxidants, BHT, Chimassorb 81, Irganox PS 800, Irganix 1076, Irganox 1010
              PVC: Polyvinyl Chloride
              Used for: Water Bottles, Salad Dressing Bottles, Detergent Bottles, Cooking Oil Bottles, Shampoo Bottles, Mouth Wash Bottles, Meat Wrap, Also: Babies' Teething Rings, Pacifiers, Nipples and Toys (Barbie for example).
              What migrates from plastic container to contents: Plasticizers (Lead, Cadmium, Mercury, Phthalates and the carcinogen, Diethyl Hexyphosphate)
              LDPE: Low-Density Polyethylene
              Used for: Produce Bags, Food Storage Containers
              What migrates from plastic container to contents: Antioxidants, BHT, Chimassorb 81, Irganox PS 800, Irganix 1076, Irganox 1010
              PP: Polypropylene
              Used for: Bottle Caps, Drinking Straws
              What migrates from plastic container to contents: BHT, Chimassorb 81, Irganox PS 800, Irganix 1076, Irganox 1010
              PS: Polystyrene
              Used for: Meat Trays, Foam Take-Out Food Containers & Cups (not in Berkeley!), Foam Packing Materials
              What migrates from plastic container to contents: Styrene (traces found in nearly everyone's body fat)
              --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@. ..> wrote:
              >
              > Okay, I'm open to the fact that many, perhaps even all, plastics leach toxins into high-ABV spirit, but can anyone tell me *which* toxins are leached out of medium-density polyethylene, the plastic our milk jugs are made from?
              >
              > Except for the number of carbons in the molecular chain, polyethylene is chemically identical to paraffin wax, generally considered to be chemically inert. Also, because of the physical properties of MDPE, I'd be surprised if plasticizers are included, and our jugs use no coloring agents.
              >
              > So I want to get past yes or no, good or bad, and get to *what*. Does anyone here know?
              >
              > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller (who doesn't store in *any* plastic)
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "Jan Ooms" jkooms@ wrote:
              > ----snip----
              > > Please stay away from plastic, if you don't, you will be a surgeons delight in future.
              > > There is enough information in the archives about plastic in relation to alcohol useage and storage.
              > ----snip----
              >


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            • tgfoitwoods
              Thanks a bunch Waldo and Paul. I m saving this info. I like hard facts *way* better than just handwaving, and I m *still* collecting and storing in glass.
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 2, 2009
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                Thanks a bunch Waldo and Paul.

                I'm saving this info. I like hard facts *way* better than just handwaving, and I'm *still* collecting and storing in glass.

                Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paul Smith <praxis178@...> wrote:
                >
                > You can add Bispheno-A (BPA) to that list, a suspected carcinogen and (I can't remember the word, but..) it also affects how sex of an animal is expressed (males less obviously so [smaller penis/testes, low sperm counts], females often sterile).
                >  
                >----snip----
              • jamesonbeam1
                Your More then Welcome ZB, But again, remember this everyone, what we are doing here, is making drinkable poison in the first place. All these discussions
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 2, 2009
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                  Your More then Welcome ZB,

                  But again, remember this everyone, what we are doing here, is making drinkable "poison" in the first place.  All these discussions on plastics, foreshots, and correct cuts contribute just a fraction of 1 percent to the real "poisons" we are making.  Downing a quart of the best 12 year old whiskey you can get in less then 1 hour will prove this to ya' all.

                  So the best adviceto all is: Drink Sensible, Be Safe and dont sell your hootch.  Remember, this is a hobby and an aged,  good and honorable one!!!

                  Vino es Veritas,

                  Jim aka Waldo.

                  PS> No I haven't yet joined MADD (mothers against drunk drivers), Im still a member of DAMM (drinkers against mad mothers);).....

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks a bunch Waldo and Paul.
                  >
                  > I'm saving this info. I like hard facts *way* better than just handwaving, and I'm *still* collecting and storing in glass.
                  >
                  > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Paul Smith praxis178@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > You can add Bispheno-A (BPA) to that list, a suspected carcinogen and (I can't remember the word, but..) it also affects how sex of an animal is expressed (males less obviously so [smaller penis/testes, low sperm counts], females often sterile).
                  > >  
                  > >----snip----
                  >

                • schnakeus
                  Jim and all, Sorry Andy, I shouldn t have recommended plastic, although I was talking short term (7 to 10 days to mellow and color. Then dilute,flavor and
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 2, 2009
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                    Jim and all,
                    Sorry Andy, I shouldn't have recommended plastic, although I was talking short term (7 to 10 days to mellow and color. Then dilute,flavor and bottle). I also use glass. I don't want to mislead anyone. Jan, are you sure it is absolutely that dangerous? I'm no chemistry major. Anyway it's a decent rum recipe. And glass is best. Shame on me!

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > OK Guys,
                    >
                    > Didn't mean to start a flame war here. I was being a bit facetious and
                    > "tounge in cheek" when asking for comments on Schnakeus' recommendation
                    > to Andy about using plastic milk bottles to age 60% (120 proof) rum in.
                    >
                    > To try and put this in perspective, plastics are fine for primary
                    > fermentations of up to 20% or so ABV. This is what would be considered
                    > "pre-distilled" product. For distilling and "post-distilled" products
                    > we are going to drink, there are only certain plastics that are ethanol
                    > tolerant, and even then, drinkable stuff over 100 proof should not be
                    > stored in them for any length of time. Riku, a moderator and well known
                    > still designer here can tell you which plastics are ok for this (like
                    > the Amazing Still). However, used plastic milk containers definitely DO
                    > NOT contain one of these.....
                    >
                    > The only approved and recommended plastic containers for holding
                    > drinkable ethanol products for any prolonged period of time (again under
                    > 50% or 100 proof), are the specially coated PET liquor bottles they came
                    > out with about 10 years ago. These have special coatings which form a
                    > barrier between the ethanol and the plastic.
                    >
                    > Please do not store or try and age your "barrel strength" products in
                    > any type of plastic containers. USE GLASS or oak barrels. PLEASE.
                    >
                    > Remember this Schnakeus for Gosh sake. Below is a posting by Harry from
                    > Advanced Distillers on PET bottles and their coatings.
                    >
                    > Vino es Veritas,
                    >
                    > Jim aka Waldo.
                    >
                    > repost of Distillers group msg# 39312
                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/39312>
                    > Re: Angels share?
                    > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Good information Harry,
                    > >
                    > > Now few more things. As an example polypropylene seems to be OK for
                    > > medium term STORAGE of medium strength ethanol. That's not aging but
                    > > storage. PET bottles I've had trouble with. I once stored some 30-40%
                    > > low wines temporarily (for few hours) into a thin walled pet bottle
                    > > and it deformed. What we need to remember here is that we are not
                    > > dealing exclusively with ethanol, rather flavored drinks and
                    > > especially low-wines have many other higher+lower boiling point
                    > > alcohols + other chemicals. The combined effect of all these is quite
                    > > impossible to determine without empirical testing.
                    > >
                    > > Cheers, Riku
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I'm in the middle of doing up a paper on plastic containers in
                    > distilling. It'll take me a while to finish. But as to your
                    > experiences with PET bottles...time & technology march on relentlessly.
                    > The reason they've been able to use PET for beverages like Early Times &
                    > Ancient Age whiskey for the last 10 years (and I believe Jim Beam is
                    > now using it), is because of the great advances in coating or barrier
                    > substances and processes.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The pet bottles of today are a far cry from those of even 3 or 4 years
                    > ago. There's also PET bottles tailor-made for specific fills, like
                    > carbonated drinks and hot-fill juices in PET bottles that don't distort
                    > and whose contents have a shelf life requirement of longer than 9
                    > months.
                    >
                    > The barrier coatings range from the organic coatings (epoxyamine aka
                    > Bairocade) developed in the mid 1990s to lengthen the shelf life of the
                    > smaller soft drink sizes in hotter climates, then for beer, to the
                    > latest plasma-applied inorganic coatings, using carbon or silicon.
                    >
                    > It's a brave new world, particularly for we adventurous distillers.
                    >
                    >
                    > Slainte!
                    > regards Harry
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Ooms" <jkooms@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi YMMV,
                    > > I hope that you drink all that gutrot yourself. You wouldn't want it
                    > on your concience that you are slowly poisoning all your drinking mates.
                    > > Please stay away from plastic, if you don't, you will be a surgeons
                    > delight in future.
                    > > There is enough information in the archives about plastic in relation
                    > to alcohol useage and storage.
                    > > Do not take any notice of Multi Nationals and their statements in
                    > regard to plastic, pvc etc etc.
                    > > Their bottomline dictates what is healthy for you and us.
                    > > Best Regards,
                    > > Jan.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: macrobert@
                    > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 11:29 PM
                    > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies for
                    > beginners
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I've found that at ~35% or lower it seems to be okay, but above that
                    > it gets flavours from the plastic.
                    > > YMMV
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Robbie Mac
                    > > Sometime tinkerer and sometimes it even works....
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: jamesonbeam1 jamesonbeam1@
                    > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:21 am
                    > > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies for
                    > beginners
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hi All,
                    > > After being critiqued too many times on my beliefs in using plastics
                    > in the hobby of distilling, would any of you other 3,648 members here in
                    > New Distillers care to comment on Schnakeus' recommendation to Andy (a
                    > brand new member and distiller) on this statement:
                    > > "Distill 4L, removing first 2Tsp of fusels, down to approx 1.1
                    > Litre(using a 4L pot still) Don't collect tails, throw em away. A couple
                    > weeks in a plastic milk jug with a tsp med toast oak chips per litre
                    > really mellows."
                    > > Thanks,
                    > > Vino es Veritas,
                    > > Jim aka Waldo.
                    > >
                    >
                  • jamesonbeam1
                    Hi Schnakeus, No big deal at all. This hobby is constant learning curve and im glad this was brough out in the open. Just hope people now relize when and
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 3, 2009
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                      Hi Schnakeus,

                      No big deal at all. This hobby is constant learning curve and im glad
                      this was brough out in the open. Just hope people now relize when and
                      where to use plastics. My views are simply that its better safe then
                      sorry, so I stay away from plastics in any post-distilled product.

                      And yes, your recipe is a good one, and especially interesting adding
                      the essences as well. The only constructive criticism would be taking
                      it all the way up to 21% ABV. This is the very upper limit of the turbo
                      yeast's tolerance and may cause some unwanted flavors and stess them
                      out. Not to mention the heat being generated.

                      I use about the same ratios of sugars to molasses, but usually go no
                      more then 14% ABV for rums, while the commercial rum makers usually
                      shoot for around 10% ABV. Lower ABVs in your fermentation will allow
                      more flavors to come through.

                      Vino es Veritas,

                      Jim aka Waldo.


                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "schnakeus" <schnake1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Jim and all,
                      > Sorry Andy, I shouldn't have recommended plastic, although I was
                      talking short term (7 to 10 days to mellow and color. Then dilute,flavor
                      and bottle). I also use glass. I don't want to mislead anyone. Jan, are
                      you sure it is absolutely that dangerous? I'm no chemistry major. Anyway
                      it's a decent rum recipe. And glass is best. Shame on me!
                      >
                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" jamesonbeam1@
                      wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > OK Guys,
                      > >
                      > > Didn't mean to start a flame war here. I was being a bit facetious
                      and
                      > > "tounge in cheek" when asking for comments on Schnakeus'
                      recommendation
                      > > to Andy about using plastic milk bottles to age 60% (120 proof) rum
                      in.
                      > >
                      > > To try and put this in perspective, plastics are fine for primary
                      > > fermentations of up to 20% or so ABV. This is what would be
                      considered
                      > > "pre-distilled" product. For distilling and "post-distilled"
                      products
                      > > we are going to drink, there are only certain plastics that are
                      ethanol
                      > > tolerant, and even then, drinkable stuff over 100 proof should not
                      be
                      > > stored in them for any length of time. Riku, a moderator and well
                      known
                      > > still designer here can tell you which plastics are ok for this
                      (like
                      > > the Amazing Still). However, used plastic milk containers definitely
                      DO
                      > > NOT contain one of these.....
                      > >
                      > > The only approved and recommended plastic containers for holding
                      > > drinkable ethanol products for any prolonged period of time (again
                      under
                      > > 50% or 100 proof), are the specially coated PET liquor bottles they
                      came
                      > > out with about 10 years ago. These have special coatings which form
                      a
                      > > barrier between the ethanol and the plastic.
                      > >
                      > > Please do not store or try and age your "barrel strength" products
                      in
                      > > any type of plastic containers. USE GLASS or oak barrels. PLEASE.
                      > >
                      > > Remember this Schnakeus for Gosh sake. Below is a posting by Harry
                      from
                      > > Advanced Distillers on PET bottles and their coatings.
                      > >
                      > > Vino es Veritas,
                      > >
                      > > Jim aka Waldo.
                      > >
                      > > repost of Distillers group msg# 39312
                      > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/39312>
                      > > Re: Angels share?
                      > > --- In Distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Good information Harry,
                      > > >
                      > > > Now few more things. As an example polypropylene seems to be OK
                      for
                      > > > medium term STORAGE of medium strength ethanol. That's not aging
                      but
                      > > > storage. PET bottles I've had trouble with. I once stored some
                      30-40%
                      > > > low wines temporarily (for few hours) into a thin walled pet
                      bottle
                      > > > and it deformed. What we need to remember here is that we are not
                      > > > dealing exclusively with ethanol, rather flavored drinks and
                      > > > especially low-wines have many other higher+lower boiling point
                      > > > alcohols + other chemicals. The combined effect of all these is
                      quite
                      > > > impossible to determine without empirical testing.
                      > > >
                      > > > Cheers, Riku
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I'm in the middle of doing up a paper on plastic containers in
                      > > distilling. It'll take me a while to finish. But as to your
                      > > experiences with PET bottles...time & technology march on
                      relentlessly.
                      > > The reason they've been able to use PET for beverages like Early
                      Times &
                      > > Ancient Age whiskey for the last 10 years (and I believe Jim Beam is
                      > > now using it), is because of the great advances in coating or
                      barrier
                      > > substances and processes.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The pet bottles of today are a far cry from those of even 3 or 4
                      years
                      > > ago. There's also PET bottles tailor-made for specific fills, like
                      > > carbonated drinks and hot-fill juices in PET bottles that don't
                      distort
                      > > and whose contents have a shelf life requirement of longer than 9
                      > > months.
                      > >
                      > > The barrier coatings range from the organic coatings (epoxyamine aka
                      > > Bairocade) developed in the mid 1990s to lengthen the shelf life of
                      the
                      > > smaller soft drink sizes in hotter climates, then for beer, to the
                      > > latest plasma-applied inorganic coatings, using carbon or silicon.
                      > >
                      > > It's a brave new world, particularly for we adventurous distillers.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Slainte!
                      > > regards Harry
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Jan Ooms" <jkooms@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi YMMV,
                      > > > I hope that you drink all that gutrot yourself. You wouldn't want
                      it
                      > > on your concience that you are slowly poisoning all your drinking
                      mates.
                      > > > Please stay away from plastic, if you don't, you will be a
                      surgeons
                      > > delight in future.
                      > > > There is enough information in the archives about plastic in
                      relation
                      > > to alcohol useage and storage.
                      > > > Do not take any notice of Multi Nationals and their statements in
                      > > regard to plastic, pvc etc etc.
                      > > > Their bottomline dictates what is healthy for you and us.
                      > > > Best Regards,
                      > > > Jan.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: macrobert@
                      > > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 11:29 PM
                      > > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies
                      for
                      > > beginners
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > I've found that at ~35% or lower it seems to be okay, but above
                      that
                      > > it gets flavours from the plastic.
                      > > > YMMV
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Robbie Mac
                      > > > Sometime tinkerer and sometimes it even works....
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > From: jamesonbeam1 jamesonbeam1@
                      > > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Sent: Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:21 am
                      > > > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Easy whiskey and rum recipies for
                      > > beginners
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi All,
                      > > > After being critiqued too many times on my beliefs in using
                      plastics
                      > > in the hobby of distilling, would any of you other 3,648 members
                      here in
                      > > New Distillers care to comment on Schnakeus' recommendation to Andy
                      (a
                      > > brand new member and distiller) on this statement:
                      > > > "Distill 4L, removing first 2Tsp of fusels, down to approx 1.1
                      > > Litre(using a 4L pot still) Don't collect tails, throw em away. A
                      couple
                      > > weeks in a plastic milk jug with a tsp med toast oak chips per litre
                      > > really mellows."
                      > > > Thanks,
                      > > > Vino es Veritas,
                      > > > Jim aka Waldo.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
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