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Failing fermentation

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  • lucvanheel
    Hello All First I tried my cane juice to ferment, with Turbo yeast,nothing happened! then I went reading again, addedd bakers yeast with extra nuitrients it
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 5, 2009
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      Hello All

      First I tried my cane juice to ferment, with Turbo yeast,nothing happened! then I went reading again, addedd bakers yeast with extra nuitrients it bubled for 12 hrs and than died, it all got to warm.
      I did distill the lot, the 803 performed wonderfull, out of the botched wash 170L cane juice I got 2 L 180% It just proved that he column worked, but not much more.

      Night teperatures here 24C day time 34C. April May it goes up to 45C in the shade.
      I now made 2 cooling coils for my 2 fermantation tubs (112L each) with a submergable 12V pump in a 100 liter coolerbox where I keep on adding Ice, you can by big blocks here for about 50Cent a block.
      Now for 1 $ a day the temp in the tanks stays between 20 to 26C wich is witin the limits printed on the Turbo.
      Yesterday I made a pure sugar wash as instructed on the Turbo packet, and kept it all cool, 24 Hrs later I still have a Oe reading of a 100,
      +/- 15% alcohol, but no sign of fermentation, not 1 bubble. 15% is wat I started of with!
      Did something happend like this to someone else before? Any advice to get this restarted? Having to trow away 140 liters sugar wash would hurt.
      Regards
      Luc.
    • gnikomson2000
      ... Hi Thomas, That s pretty good advice, particularly on the methods of cooling a fermentation (Coolgardie Safe, anyone?). On the stuck fermentation, I m more
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 6, 2009
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        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Janstrom" <t_janstrom@...> wrote:
        >
        > More than likely you had a phage infection, now that you have boiled your
        > wash (or should we call it wort now?) you should be able to re-inoculate it,
        > especially if you didn't rack it of the leas. (It won't need any more
        > nutrients as the cooked yeast hulls will supply more than enough.)
        >
        >
        >
        > As for keeping it a bit cooler, try and wrap it in hessian which you keep
        > damp/slightly wet, and place the whole lot somewhere where there is a
        > breeze. To help keep the hessian wet stand the fermenter in a shallow pan of
        > water and the hessian will suck up water as it evaporates higher up. While
        > not perfect, it should save your cane juice from the drain.
        >
        >
        >
        > Good luck.
        >
        >
        >
        > Cheers, Thomas Janstrom.


        Hi Thomas,

        That's pretty good advice, particularly on the methods of cooling a fermentation (Coolgardie Safe, anyone?).

        On the stuck fermentation, I'm more inclined to think the Turbo yeast may be non-viable (old or damaged). I think he needs new yeast.

        Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't phages a virus that attacks bacteria? such as the Leuconostoc oenos of the secondary (malolactic) fermentation? If so, primary fermentations and yeasts (a fungus) shouldn't be overly affected by phages. Yeasts also synthesize their own SO2 as a disinfectant.

        I did find one piece of info that's interesting...

        "On the other hand, it appeared that the ability of oenophages to lyse O.oeni in wine and perturb MLF was greatly dependent both on the type of phage and the bacterial strain, which responded differently to the properties of the wine, such as the pH and the composition in SO2, ethanol, bentonite, and the phenolic compounds (Davis et al. 1985; Henick-Kling et al. 1986). Although it is still a matter of some debate, the current perception is that phage attack seems not to represent a critical problem in winemaking (Poblet-Leart et al. 1998), contrary to the scenario found in the dairy industry."

        [Source: Biology of Microorganisms on Grapes, in Must and in Wine By Helmut König, Gottfried Unden, Jürgen Fröhlich - pg 98]


        Slainte!
        regards Harry

        ps
        Welcome to the black arts :)
      • jamesonbeam1
        Hi Luc, Just a quick question, if I may add my 2 cent worth.. you say you doing a 170 liter wash. What type / make of Turbo yeast are you using and how many
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 6, 2009
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          Hi Luc,

          Just a quick question, if I may add my 2 cent worth.. you say you doing
          a 170 liter wash. What type / make of Turbo yeast are you using and how
          many packets did you use>?? Most packets are only good for a 25 to 30
          liter wash.

          Also as Harry stated, check out the expiration date on your packs. The
          idea of wrapping your fermenter in wet cloths is also a good idea.


          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "lucvanheel" <ethyl@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello All
          >
          > First I tried my cane juice to ferment, with Turbo yeast,nothing
          happened! then I went reading again, addedd bakers yeast with extra
          nuitrients it bubled for 12 hrs and than died, it all got to warm.
          > I did distill the lot, the 803 performed wonderfull, out of the
          botched wash 170L cane juice I got 2 L 180% It just proved that he
          column worked, but not much more.
          >
          > Night teperatures here 24C day time 34C. April May it goes up to 45C
          in the shade.
          > I now made 2 cooling coils for my 2 fermantation tubs (112L each) with
          a submergable 12V pump in a 100 liter coolerbox where I keep on adding
          Ice, you can by big blocks here for about 50Cent a block.
          > Now for 1 $ a day the temp in the tanks stays between 20 to 26C wich
          is witin the limits printed on the Turbo.
          > Yesterday I made a pure sugar wash as instructed on the Turbo packet,
          and kept it all cool, 24 Hrs later I still have a Oe reading of a 100,
          > +/- 15% alcohol, but no sign of fermentation, not 1 bubble. 15% is wat
          I started of with!
          > Did something happend like this to someone else before? Any advice to
          get this restarted? Having to trow away 140 liters sugar wash would
          hurt.
          > Regards
          > Luc.
          >
        • jamesonbeam1
          Sidenote Luc, Also sounds like you live in a tropical area - especially getting hold of all that sugar cane juice (im jealous [;)] ). Tis a good idea to
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 6, 2009
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            Sidenote Luc,

            Also sounds like you live in a tropical area - especially getting hold of all that sugar cane juice (im jealous ;)).  Tis a good idea to always keep your yeasts in the refridge to extend usable life.

            Vino es Veritas,

            Jim aka Waldo.

          • waljaco
            Last year we began a 300 litre wine fermentation in 40C heat - a temperature that killed the wine yeast. Ended with an unwanted sweet red! wal
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 6, 2009
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              Last year we began a 300 litre wine fermentation in 40C heat - a temperature that killed the wine yeast. Ended with an unwanted sweet red!
              wal
              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "lucvanheel" <ethyl@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello All
              >
              > First I tried my cane juice to ferment, with Turbo yeast,nothing happened! then I went reading again, addedd bakers yeast with extra nuitrients it bubled for 12 hrs and than died, it all got to warm.
              > I did distill the lot, the 803 performed wonderfull, out of the botched wash 170L cane juice I got 2 L 180% It just proved that he column worked, but not much more.
              >
              > Night teperatures here 24C day time 34C. April May it goes up to 45C in the shade.
              > I now made 2 cooling coils for my 2 fermantation tubs (112L each) with a submergable 12V pump in a 100 liter coolerbox where I keep on adding Ice, you can by big blocks here for about 50Cent a block.
              > Now for 1 $ a day the temp in the tanks stays between 20 to 26C wich is witin the limits printed on the Turbo.
              > Yesterday I made a pure sugar wash as instructed on the Turbo packet, and kept it all cool, 24 Hrs later I still have a Oe reading of a 100,
              > +/- 15% alcohol, but no sign of fermentation, not 1 bubble. 15% is wat I started of with!
              > Did something happend like this to someone else before? Any advice to get this restarted? Having to trow away 140 liters sugar wash would hurt.
              > Regards
              > Luc.
              >
            • KM Services
              Gidday Luc, Can I just add to Jim s comments and say that turbo s are intended for the Hobby distiller and geared to the 20 to 25 litre wash with a quick turn
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 6, 2009
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                Gidday Luc,

                Can I just add to Jim’s comments and say that turbo’s are intended for the Hobby distiller and geared to the 20 to 25 litre wash with a quick turn around time with highish ABV and most are not generally “stackable”. Some like Code 6 ( lower ABV and slower fermenting)  can be stacked to make a 50 litre maybe 75 litre wash size, but, not much further. I am sure if you are doing washes as high as X7 over the 25 litre size you would need to get commercial yeast that can cope with stacking to that size.

                Ken Mc (This is my opinion and if I am wrong I will be corrected I am sure)

                Hi Luc,

                Just a quick question, if I may add my 2 cent worth.. you say you doing
                a 170 liter wash. What type / make of Turbo yeast are you using and how
                many packets did you use>?? Most packets are only good for a 25 to 30
                liter wash.

                Also as Harry stated, check out the expiration date on your packs. The
                idea of wrapping your fermenter in wet cloths is also a good idea.

                --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "lucvanheel" <ethyl@...> wrote:

                >
                > Hello All
                >
                > First I tried my cane juice to ferment, with Turbo yeast,nothing
                happened! then I went reading again, addedd bakers yeast with extra
                nuitrients it bubled for 12 hrs and than died, it all got to warm.
                > I did distill the lot, the 803 performed wonderfull, out of the
                botched wash 170L cane juice I got 2 L 180% It just proved that he
                column worked, but not much more.
                >
                > Night teperatures here 24C day time 34C. April May it goes up to 45C
                in the shade.
                > I now made 2 cooling coils for my 2 fermantation tubs (112L each) with
                a submergable 12V pump in a 100 liter coolerbox where I keep on adding
                Ice, you can by big blocks here for about 50Cent a block.
                > Now for 1 $ a day the temp in the tanks stays between 20 to 26C wich
                is witin the limits printed on the Turbo.
                > Yesterday I made a pure sugar wash as instructed on the Turbo packet,
                and kept it all cool, 24 Hrs later I still have a Oe reading of a 100,
                > +/- 15% alcohol, but no sign of fermentation, not 1 bubble. 15% is wat
                I started of with!
                > Did something happend like this to someone else before? Any advice to
                get this restarted? Having to trow away 140 liters sugar wash would
                hurt.
                > Regards
                > Luc.

              • jamesonbeam1
                Exactly correct Ken, Believe we had this discussion on stacking Turbo yeasts this past year or so in The Advanced Distillers Forum - see:
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 6, 2009
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                  Exactly correct Ken,

                  Believe we had this discussion on stacking Turbo yeasts this past year or so in The Advanced Distillers Forum - see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/msearch?query=Stacking+Turbo++Jim&charset=windows-1252 

                  Believe its better to make several smaller fermentations then one large one.  Also will cause way too much heat due to the fast ferementation, as Luc found out the hard way...

                  Vino es Veritas,

                  Jim aka Waldo.


                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "KM Services" <km_services@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Gidday Luc,
                  >
                  > Can I just add to Jim's comments and say that turbo's are intended for the
                  > Hobby distiller and geared to the 20 to 25 litre wash with a quick turn
                  > around time with highish ABV and most are not generally "stackable". Some
                  > like Code 6 ( lower ABV and slower fermenting) can be stacked to make a 50
                  > litre maybe 75 litre wash size, but, not much further. I am sure if you are
                  > doing washes as high as X7 over the 25 litre size you would need to get
                  > commercial yeast that can cope with stacking to that size.
                  >
                  > Ken Mc (This is my opinion and if I am wrong I will be corrected I am sure)
                  >
                  > Hi Luc,
                  >
                  > Just a quick question, if I may add my 2 cent worth.. you say you doing
                  > a 170 liter wash. What type / make of Turbo yeast are you using and how
                  > many packets did you use>?? Most packets are only good for a 25 to 30
                  > liter wash.
                  >
                  > Also as Harry stated, check out the expiration date on your packs. The
                  > idea of wrapping your fermenter in wet cloths is also a good idea.
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@ <mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > yahoogroups.com, "lucvanheel" ethyl@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello All
                  > >
                  > > First I tried my cane juice to ferment, with Turbo yeast,nothing
                  > happened! then I went reading again, addedd bakers yeast with extra
                  > nuitrients it bubled for 12 hrs and than died, it all got to warm.
                  > > I did distill the lot, the 803 performed wonderfull, out of the
                  > botched wash 170L cane juice I got 2 L 180% It just proved that he
                  > column worked, but not much more.
                  > >
                  > > Night teperatures here 24C day time 34C. April May it goes up to 45C
                  > in the shade.
                  > > I now made 2 cooling coils for my 2 fermantation tubs (112L each) with
                  > a submergable 12V pump in a 100 liter coolerbox where I keep on adding
                  > Ice, you can by big blocks here for about 50Cent a block.
                  > > Now for 1 $ a day the temp in the tanks stays between 20 to 26C wich
                  > is witin the limits printed on the Turbo.
                  > > Yesterday I made a pure sugar wash as instructed on the Turbo packet,
                  > and kept it all cool, 24 Hrs later I still have a Oe reading of a 100,
                  > > +/- 15% alcohol, but no sign of fermentation, not 1 bubble. 15% is wat
                  > I started of with!
                  > > Did something happend like this to someone else before? Any advice to
                  > get this restarted? Having to trow away 140 liters sugar wash would
                  > hurt.
                  > > Regards
                  > > Luc.
                  >

                • KM Services
                  Exactly Jim, I have 2# 25litre washes dying down and will be ready for the still this weekend (thinking of the Xmas stock) Ken Mc Exactly correct Ken, Believe
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 6, 2009
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                    Exactly Jim,

                    I have 2# 25litre washes dying down and will be ready for the still this weekend (thinking of the Xmas stock)

                     

                    Ken Mc

                    Exactly correct Ken,

                    Believe we had this discussion on stacking Turbo yeasts this past year or so in The Advanced Distillers Forum - see: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Distillers /msearch? query=Stacking+ Turbo++Jim&charset=windows- 1252 

                    Believe its better to make several smaller fermentations then one large one.  Also will cause way too much heat due to the fast ferementation, as Luc found out the hard way...

                    Vino es Veritas,

                    Jim aka Waldo.

                  • jamesonbeam1
                    Yuppers Thomas, Your also correct in that aspect. You cannot mix regular ol Baker s Yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 6, 2009
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                      Yuppers Thomas,

                      Your also correct in that aspect.  You cannot mix regular ol' Baker's Yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) with S. Bayanus strains like EC-1118 or K!V-1116, (almost all Turbo yeasts brands use S. Bayanus strains), since these faster acting,  fermenting strains will kill off the wild yeasts and slower growth yeasts like S. Cerevisiae.

                      But me thinks, as does Ken,  that Luc was trying to stack to much Turbo yeast together for his large fermentation volume, rather than trying to do it in smaller lots. 

                      Since he is also  living in a very hot (tropical) climate it seems, Me thinks he would be better off using the Native Danstil EDV 493 yeast that was first cultivated off of sugar cane in the French Carribean and can withstand much higher temps than our Baker, wine or champagne yeasts...

                      Vino es Veritas,

                      Jim aka Waldo.

                       

                      Vino es Veritas,

                      Jim aka Waldo.


                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Janstrom" <t_janstrom@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Harry,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I only mentioned the phage option as he has tried two yeast stains and both
                      > failed, although both failures could conceivably be put down to "too high a
                      > fermentation temp" too. Another thing to keep in mind is that there are
                      > "killer" yeast cells, these hunt down and kill other strains while their
                      > numbers are low, might the juice have come with its own yeast from the cane
                      > it was pressed from?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Ironically that text was one of my regular "go to" books when I worked in
                      > the industry. I believe that I gave my copy to my little brother who is now
                      > studying micro biology (I think he wants to go into virology)…..
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Cheers, Thomas Janstrom.
                      >
                      > Little Gems.
                      >
                      > http://tjlittlegems.com <http://tjlittlegems.com/index.htm>

                    • jamesonbeam1
                      I still think the Danstil-493 would be a better choice for Luc s hot climate. It is used in most rum production in the Carribean, and can withstand 35C.
                      Message 10 of 11 , Sep 10, 2009
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                        I still think the Danstil-493 would be a better choice for Luc's hot
                        climate. It is used in most rum production in the Carribean, and can
                        withstand 35C. However, Luc now will have to consider including yeast
                        nutrients with his fermentations (which are included in Turbo Yeasts).
                        He should also start looking into rum making and/or start boiling down
                        his sugar cane juice to increase the sugar contents.

                        Vino es Veritas,

                        Jim aka Waldo.


                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Janstrom"
                        <t_janstrom@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Ok, while not the one I was thinking of this one will do the job, with
                        low
                        > fusil production to boot.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The yeast is a Lallemand "Lalvin EC-1118" it's a fast, low nutrient
                        > requiring , 18% yielding, 10-35'C working range, active killer strain
                        of
                        > yeast. So if you're using cane juice, or just plain fruit juice it
                        will
                        > clean up the wild type yeasts and get the job done in a couple of
                        days. Now
                        > it is optimised for the temp range 10-30'C, but will work to 35'C,
                        it's just
                        > going to not produce as much alcohol nor be as clean a ferment as it
                        would
                        > be at a cooler working temp.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Cheers, Thomas Janstrom.
                        >
                        > From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com]
                        > On Behalf Of Thomas Janstrom
                        > Sent: Tuesday, 8 September 2009 11:23 AM
                        > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: RE: [new_distillers] Re: Failing fermentation
                        >
                        >
                        > Yeah, people forget that yeasts have a "happy" working range (either
                        temp,
                        > sugar or volume wise), and even though it doesn't sound logical,
                        that's just
                        > the way it is. I'm trying to remember the name of another high temp
                        happy,
                        > but slow (for working at 30'C) fermenting yeast (used mainly in
                        tropical
                        > area home beer brewing). When I remember it I'll post it.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I can probably get access to cane juice too, lots is grown in this
                        area..
                        > Might be fun to try a recipe I found from the 1700's for Caribbean
                        rum.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Cheers, Thomas Janstrom.


                        > On Behalf Of jamesonbeam1
                        > Sent: Monday, 7 September 2009 12:18 PM
                        > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Failing fermentation
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yuppers Thomas,
                        >
                        > Your also correct in that aspect. You cannot mix regular ol' Baker's
                        Yeast
                        > ( <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_cerevisiae>
                        Saccharomyces
                        > cerevisiae) with S. Bayanus strains like EC-1118 or K!V-1116, (almost
                        all
                        > Turbo yeasts brands use S. Bayanus strains), since these faster
                        acting,
                        > fermenting strains will kill off the wild yeasts and slower growth
                        yeasts
                        > like S. Cerevisiae.
                        >
                        > But me thinks, as does Ken, that Luc was trying to stack to much Turbo
                        > yeast together for his large fermentation volume, rather than trying
                        to do
                        > it in smaller lots.
                        >
                        > Since he is also living in a very hot (tropical) climate it seems, Me
                        > thinks he would be better off using the Native Danstil EDV 493 yeast
                        that
                        > was first cultivated off of sugar cane in the French Carribean and can
                        > withstand much higher temps than our Baker, wine or champagne
                        yeasts...
                        >
                        > Vino es Veritas,
                        >
                        > Jim aka Waldo.
                      • gnikomson2000
                        Jim, Check yer email. Slainte! regards Harry
                        Message 11 of 11 , Sep 10, 2009
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                          Jim,
                          Check yer email.

                          Slainte!
                          regards Harry
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