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Ignorance WAS bliss...

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  • Charles
    So I just went over to the website where I plan on making my next supplies order from, and being lazy - I decided to just type yeast in to the search engine.
    Message 1 of 15 , Aug 3, 2009
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      So I just went over to the website where I plan on making my next supplies order from, and being lazy - I decided to just type "yeast" in to the search engine. Whoops. Five pages of results. All these NUMBERS! I'm guessing that they represent different strains, but since it's a primarily beer and wine making website, they give descriptions based on beer and wine. What's the best kind for what we're doing? I'm still working on keeping things simple for the time being...neutral "vodka" type. I'm looking to use it with the MUM wash (see previous post from me). I think I've seen 1118 typed up on here before, but am not sure about that. There is one option that allows me to buy in bulk (500g), but it doesn't give me the #s there, now I only have "Cote de Blancs" or "Montrachet". Help?

      --Mad Hatter
      *A horse is a horse, of course of course, unless the horse is actually yeast*
    • jamesonbeam1
      While Mason s MUM wash - which stands for Mason s Universal Mash (even though its not really a mash), originally required off-the-shelf ingredients from a
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 3, 2009
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        While Mason's MUM wash - which stands for "Mason's Universal Mash" (even
        though its not really a mash), originally required off-the-shelf
        ingredients from a supermarket (hence - the "Universal" part).

        However, I only use and perfer the Lalvin EC-1118 yeast strain over
        regular old Baker's yeast. It is a very neutral, highly competitive
        yeast, much faster acting, and can withstand a much higher ABV (18% vs
        only 14% for Baker's yeast), since it is a strain of the S. Bayanus
        champagne family (species). Due to its highly competitive nature, you
        really dont have to worry about wild yeast infections either.

        Vino es Veritas,

        Jim aka Waldo.


        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" <jazzvandoren@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > So I just went over to the website where I plan on making my next
        supplies order from, and being lazy - I decided to just type "yeast" in
        to the search engine. Whoops. Five pages of results. All these NUMBERS!
        I'm guessing that they represent different strains, but since it's a
        primarily beer and wine making website, they give descriptions based on
        beer and wine. What's the best kind for what we're doing? I'm still
        working on keeping things simple for the time being...neutral "vodka"
        type. I'm looking to use it with the MUM wash (see previous post from
        me). I think I've seen 1118 typed up on here before, but am not sure
        about that. There is one option that allows me to buy in bulk (500g),
        but it doesn't give me the #s there, now I only have "Cote de Blancs" or
        "Montrachet". Help?
        >
        > --Mad Hatter
        > *A horse is a horse, of course of course, unless the horse is actually
        yeast*
        >
      • Charles
        Lalvin EC-1118. Found that on the website I m going to order from. Mason s recipe (at least the one that I m reading) is a comparison of the norm vs. the
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 3, 2009
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          Lalvin EC-1118. Found that on the website I'm going to order from. Mason's recipe (at least the one that I'm reading) is a comparison of the norm vs. the hybrid, so while the recipe says 2 packs, it also says he only used one pack per wash. The Lalvin I see is sold in 5g packs. Mason says a 4gal total volume (20L I think?) - so for a 20L/4gal wash, do you use 5g or 10g of the Lalvin? Also, you say it can withstand a higher ABV, but this time I'm trying for (I believe the way it was worded was) an unstressed yeast mix...still go with Lalvin?

          --Mad Hatter
          *Why is it I'm more concerned about keeping my yeast unstressed on my vacation than I am about keeping myself unstressed?*

          > However, I only use and perfer the Lalvin EC-1118 yeast strain over
          > regular old Baker's yeast. It is a very neutral, highly competitive
          > yeast, much faster acting, and can withstand a much higher ABV (18% vs
          > only 14% for Baker's yeast), since it is a strain of the S. Bayanus
          > champagne family (species). Due to its highly competitive nature, you
          > really dont have to worry about wild yeast infections either.
          >
        • jamesonbeam1
          For a 20 liter wash, start off with 2 packs - of 5 grams. Where I buy it, EC-1118 comes in 11 gram packs. So start off with 2. I have found you can re-use
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 3, 2009
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            For a 20 liter wash, start off with 2 packs - of 5 grams. Where I buy
            it, EC-1118 comes in 11 gram packs. So start off with 2. I have found
            you can re-use the trub for new batches over 10 to 15 times without new
            yeast. This is due to its high competitiveness. Why it has the
            nickname "The Killer Strain".

            And yes, although it withstands up to 18%+ ABV, tis much better not to
            over-stress it. I usually only bring it up to a 14% to 16% ABV. But
            again, since its a neutral type strain, its fine for making neutral type
            alcohols. However I also used it for my rums and corn sour mashes with
            good success.

            Vino es Veritas,

            Jim aka Waldo.
            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Charles" <jazzvandoren@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Lalvin EC-1118. Found that on the website I'm going to order from.
            Mason's recipe (at least the one that I'm reading) is a comparison of
            the norm vs. the hybrid, so while the recipe says 2 packs, it also says
            he only used one pack per wash. The Lalvin I see is sold in 5g packs.
            Mason says a 4gal total volume (20L I think?) - so for a 20L/4gal wash,
            do you use 5g or 10g of the Lalvin? Also, you say it can withstand a
            higher ABV, but this time I'm trying for (I believe the way it was
            worded was) an unstressed yeast mix...still go with Lalvin?
            >
            > --Mad Hatter
            > *Why is it I'm more concerned about keeping my yeast unstressed on my
            vacation than I am about keeping myself unstressed?*
            >
            > > However, I only use and perfer the Lalvin EC-1118 yeast strain over
            > > regular old Baker's yeast. It is a very neutral, highly competitive
            > > yeast, much faster acting, and can withstand a much higher ABV (18%
            vs
            > > only 14% for Baker's yeast), since it is a strain of the S. Bayanus
            > > champagne family (species). Due to its highly competitive nature,
            you
            > > really dont have to worry about wild yeast infections either.
            > >
            >
          • tgfoitwoods
            I d emphatically second that, on all counts, but plain ol baker s yeast really does work pretty well in a MUM wash. Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 3, 2009
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              I'd emphatically second that, on all counts, but plain ol' baker's yeast really does work pretty well in a MUM wash.

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              ----snip----
              >
              > However, I only use and perfer the Lalvin EC-1118 yeast strain over
              > regular old Baker's yeast. It is a very neutral, highly competitive
              > yeast, much faster acting, and can withstand a much higher ABV (18% vs
              > only 14% for Baker's yeast), since it is a strain of the S. Bayanus
              > champagne family (species). Due to its highly competitive nature, you
              > really dont have to worry about wild yeast infections either.
              >
              > Vino es Veritas,
              >
              > Jim aka Waldo.
              >
              >
              ----snip----
            • Trid
              ... The Lalvin 1118 is a good universal go-to yeast and gets the job done well. Personally, though, I m a fan of the baking yeast. Interestingly enough,
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 3, 2009
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                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                >
                > I'd emphatically second that, on all counts, but plain ol' baker's yeast really does work pretty well in a MUM wash.
                >
                > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                The Lalvin 1118 is a good universal "go-to" yeast and gets the job done well.

                Personally, though, I'm a fan of the baking yeast. Interestingly enough, high alcohol tolerance is quoted as being a strong point of the 1118 and at the same time, you'll also hear people talk about doing lower abv washes for cleaner and more efficient fermentations. If that matters, then it's worth knowing that those values fall well within baking yeast's capabilities.

                Either one will get the job done. As with any brewing, the yeast will have some effect on the end result, so it's a matter of what end result you want in the first place. If you're not sure, try a little of both (provided it's within your means). Bulk-wise, baking yeast is going to be cheaper.

                Happy brewing,
                Trid
              • cestujici2
                ... Accepting this as true, and I don t dispute that it most probably is true, the question remains: why is it true? Simple market economics of supply and
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 4, 2009
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                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Trid" <triddlywinks@...> wrote:
                  >Bulk-wise, baking yeast is going to be cheaper.
                  >
                  > Happy brewing,
                  > Trid
                  >

                  Accepting this as true, and I don't dispute that it most probably is true, the question remains: why is it true? Simple market economics of supply and demand? Or does brewing yeast demand a better standard of living? Why should some yeast be costlier than others?
                • jamesonbeam1
                  Hi Cest, Frankly, considering the amount of bread which the world consumes and makes on a daily basis, versus the amount of beers, wines and other alcholic
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 4, 2009
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                    Hi Cest,

                    Frankly, considering the amount of bread which the world consumes and makes on a daily basis,  versus the amount of  beers, wines and other alcholic imbibments made and consumed with the hundreds of different strains of beer, wine, turbo and other types of yeasts, I would offer to suggest its a supply/demand factor.

                    Tis almost certain that the amount of Baker's yeast sold around the world, outweighs these specialty yeasts demands by at least a factor of 1000 to 1 or more. 

                    You might want to research the quantity of bread eaten per day, per person versus the average quantity of alcoholic beverages consumed per person, per day...   Of course, members of this site and Advanced Distiller's must not be included in this survey,  since we would definitely skew the over all numbers.... :)

                    Vino es Veritas,

                    Jim aka Waldo.

                    "Give a man a loaf of bread and he will eat for a day - Teach a man to grow grain and he will be feed for a lifetime. "  Author - Lao Tzu

                    "Give me a fish, I eat for a day. Teach me to fish, I eat for a lifetime. "  Author -  Robert Louis Stevenson

                    "Give a man a loaf of bread;  you have fed him for today. Teach a man to grow grain and fish and by Geezzz,  he will start making shine and sit in a boat with a fishin pole over the side  gettin drunk every day."         Author - Jim Beam


                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "cestujici2" <cestujici2@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Trid" triddlywinks@ wrote:
                    > >Bulk-wise, baking yeast is going to be cheaper.
                    > >
                    > > Happy brewing,
                    > > Trid
                    > >
                    >
                    > Accepting this as true, and I don't dispute that it most probably is true, the question remains: why is it true? Simple market economics of supply and demand? Or does brewing yeast demand a better standard of living? Why should some yeast be costlier than others?
                    >

                  • Steve Spence
                    Aren t certain yeasts more tolerant of higher alcohol levels than others? I was told that wine yeasts do not get killed off as quickly, allowing a higher
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 4, 2009
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                      Aren't certain yeasts more tolerant of higher alcohol levels than
                      others? I was told that wine yeasts do not get killed off as quickly,
                      allowing a higher percentage of alcohol.


                      Steve Spence
                      Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                      http://www.green-trust.org
                      http://makingthewebwork.blogspot.com/




                      jamesonbeam1 wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Cest,
                      >
                      > Frankly, considering the amount of bread which the world consumes and
                      > makes on a daily basis, versus the amount of beers, wines and other
                      > alcholic imbibments made and consumed with the hundreds of different
                      > strains of beer, wine, turbo and other types of yeasts, I would offer to
                      > suggest its a supply/demand factor.
                      >
                      > Tis almost certain that the amount of Baker's yeast sold around the
                      > world, outweighs these specialty yeasts demands by at least a factor of
                      > 1000 to 1 or more.
                      >
                      > You might want to research the quantity of bread eaten per day, per
                      > person versus the average quantity of alcoholic beverages consumed per
                      > person, per day... Of course, members of this site and Advanced
                      > Distiller's must not be included in this survey, since we would
                      > definitely skew the over all numbers.... :)
                      >
                      > Vino es Veritas,
                      >
                      > Jim aka Waldo.
                      >
                      > "Give a man a loaf of bread and he will eat for a day - Teach a man to
                      > grow grain and he will be feed for a lifetime. " *Author - Lao Tzu
                      > *
                      >
                      > "Give me a fish, I eat for a day. Teach me to fish, I eat for a
                      > lifetime. " * Author - Robert Louis Stevenson
                      > *
                      >
                      > "Give a man a loaf of bread; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to
                      > grow grain and fish and by Geezzz, he will start making shine and sit
                      > in a boat with a fishin pole over the side gettin drunk every
                      > day." * Author - Jim Beam*
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "cestujici2" <cestujici2@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Trid" triddlywinks@ wrote:
                      >> >Bulk-wise, baking yeast is going to be cheaper.
                      >> >
                      >> > Happy brewing,
                      >> > Trid
                      >> >
                      >>
                      >> Accepting this as true, and I don't dispute that it most probably is
                      > true, the question remains: why is it true? Simple market economics of
                      > supply and demand? Or does brewing yeast demand a better standard of
                      > living? Why should some yeast be costlier than others?
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                    • gff_stwrt
                      Hi, folks and hello 2 (can t pronounce the rest of your name, sorry!)- Well, to me the answer is simple. I think (never bought any, for reasons that will be
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 4, 2009
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                        Hi, folks and hello 2 (can't pronounce the rest of your name, sorry!)-

                        Well, to me the answer is simple.
                        I think (never bought any, for reasons that will be obvious) that distillers yeasts come in say 5g or 11g packets.

                        Now, I am a baker (so I can get baker's yeast 'free' from our bakery and just have to walk in the door and take some so no trouble ordering and so on.)

                        But, because bakeries use larger quantities of yeast to make bread doughs, the dried yeast (and a lot use fresh, not dried) comes in a standard 500g vacuum pack. And of course these bigger packs are cheaper, especially when they are bought by the carton.

                        Maybe ten bucks a pack, it's a long time since I actually worked making the bread so I could be quite wrong there.

                        I'll ask my son, who does all that now, so I will know the supplier's rate, anyhow.
                        So make friends with your local neighbourhood baker....

                        Regards,

                        (of course...) Bhe Baker




                        - In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "cestujici2" <cestujici2@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Trid" <triddlywinks@> wrote:
                        > >Bulk-wise, baking yeast is going to be cheaper.
                        > >
                        > > Happy brewing,
                        > > Trid
                        > >
                        >
                        > Accepting this as true, and I don't dispute that it most probably is true, the question remains: why is it true? Simple market economics of supply and demand? Or does brewing yeast demand a better standard of living? Why should some yeast be costlier than others?
                        >
                      • tgfoitwoods
                        Steve, That s quite true, but high alcohol level washes are not always the goal. In fact,they are often the opposite of desirable, depending on what you re
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 4, 2009
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                          Steve,

                          That's quite true, but high alcohol level washes are not always the goal. In fact,they are often the opposite of desirable, depending on what you're doing.

                          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Steve Spence <steve@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Aren't certain yeasts more tolerant of higher alcohol levels than
                          > others? I was told that wine yeasts do not get killed off as quickly,
                          > allowing a higher percentage of alcohol.
                          >
                          >
                          > Steve Spence
                          > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                          > http://www.green-trust.org
                          > http://makingthewebwork.blogspot.com/
                          >
                          >
                          ----snip----
                        • Steve Spence
                          we are primarily cider makers (similar to making wine), and though we have experience making ethanol fuel, we have no experience distilling ethanol for
                          Message 12 of 15 , Aug 4, 2009
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                            we are primarily cider makers (similar to making wine), and though we
                            have experience making ethanol fuel, we have no experience distilling
                            ethanol for internal consumption.


                            Steve Spence
                            Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                            http://www.green-trust.org
                            http://makingthewebwork.blogspot.com/




                            tgfoitwoods wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Steve,
                            >
                            > That's quite true, but high alcohol level washes are not always the
                            > goal. In fact,they are often the opposite of desirable, depending on
                            > what you're doing.
                            >
                            > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                            >
                            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:new_distillers%40yahoogroups.com>, Steve Spence <steve@...> wrote:
                            >>
                            >> Aren't certain yeasts more tolerant of higher alcohol levels than
                            >> others? I was told that wine yeasts do not get killed off as quickly,
                            >> allowing a higher percentage of alcohol.
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> Steve Spence
                            >> Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                            >> http://www.green-trust.org <http://www.green-trust.org>
                            >> http://makingthewebwork.blogspot.com/
                            > <http://makingthewebwork.blogspot.com/>
                            >>
                            >>
                            > ----snip----
                            >
                            >
                          • burrows206
                            Hi, Give a man enough knowledge to know what yeast is and how to use it and he ll be pissed for a lifetime and rich enough (while sobering up) to know how to
                            Message 13 of 15 , Aug 4, 2009
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                              Hi,
                              Give a man enough knowledge to know what yeast is and how to use it and he'll be pissed for a lifetime and rich enough (while sobering up) to know how to how to keep everyone else pissed while he fleeces them and stays rich for a lifetime

                              regards Geoff (who's absolutely pissed right now on this red winy stuff but hey struth wot the hell it's cheap and I'm breaking self imposed forum rules now sorry guys )
                              Geoff





                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Steve Spence <steve@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Aren't certain yeasts more tolerant of higher alcohol levels than
                              > others? I was told that wine yeasts do not get killed off as quickly,
                              > allowing a higher percentage of alcohol.
                              >
                              >
                              > Steve Spence
                              > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                              > http://www.green-trust.org
                              > http://makingthewebwork.blogspot.com/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > jamesonbeam1 wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Hi Cest,
                              > >
                              > > Frankly, considering the amount of bread which the world consumes and
                              > > makes on a daily basis, versus the amount of beers, wines and other
                              > > alcholic imbibments made and consumed with the hundreds of different
                              > > strains of beer, wine, turbo and other types of yeasts, I would offer to
                              > > suggest its a supply/demand factor.
                              > >
                              > > Tis almost certain that the amount of Baker's yeast sold around the
                              > > world, outweighs these specialty yeasts demands by at least a factor of
                              > > 1000 to 1 or more.
                              > >
                              > > You might want to research the quantity of bread eaten per day, per
                              > > person versus the average quantity of alcoholic beverages consumed per
                              > > person, per day... Of course, members of this site and Advanced
                              > > Distiller's must not be included in this survey, since we would
                              > > definitely skew the over all numbers.... :)
                              > >
                              > > Vino es Veritas,
                              > >
                              > > Jim aka Waldo.
                              > >
                              > > "Give a man a loaf of bread and he will eat for a day - Teach a man to
                              > > grow grain and he will be feed for a lifetime. " *Author - Lao Tzu
                              > > *
                              > >
                              > > "Give me a fish, I eat for a day. Teach me to fish, I eat for a
                              > > lifetime. " * Author - Robert Louis Stevenson
                              > > *
                              > >
                              > > "Give a man a loaf of bread; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to
                              > > grow grain and fish and by Geezzz, he will start making shine and sit
                              > > in a boat with a fishin pole over the side gettin drunk every
                              > > day." * Author - Jim Beam*
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "cestujici2" <cestujici2@> wrote:
                              > >>
                              > >> --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Trid" triddlywinks@ wrote:
                              > >> >Bulk-wise, baking yeast is going to be cheaper.
                              > >> >
                              > >> > Happy brewing,
                              > >> > Trid
                              > >> >
                              > >>
                              > >> Accepting this as true, and I don't dispute that it most probably is
                              > > true, the question remains: why is it true? Simple market economics of
                              > > supply and demand? Or does brewing yeast demand a better standard of
                              > > living? Why should some yeast be costlier than others?
                              > >>
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • jamesonbeam1
                              Hi Steve, Well, most wine yeasts are of the species Saccharomyces cerevisiae as is Baker s yeast.
                              Message 14 of 15 , Aug 4, 2009
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                                Hi Steve,

                                Well, most wine yeasts are of the species  Saccharomyces cerevisiae as is Baker's yeast.  The various strains within this species have alcohol tolerances of around the 14% ABV area.

                                However, there are champagne yeast strains that are members of the Saccharomyces bayanus species, such as Lalvin  K1V-1116 and EC-1118, which are a few of the better know strains.

                                These strains have an alcohol Tolerance of 18+ % ABV, with some strains used in Turbo washes that will go up to 20% ABV.

                                However, as Z Bob mentioned, high ABV in wines and ciders is not always desired if distilling them into fruit brandies, since the higher the ABV, the more flavors are lost in the distilling process.

                                Vino es Veritas,

                                Jim aka Waldo.


                                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Steve Spence <steve@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Aren't certain yeasts more tolerant of higher alcohol levels than
                                > others? I was told that wine yeasts do not get killed off as quickly,
                                > allowing a higher percentage of alcohol.
                                >
                                >
                                > Steve Spence
                                > Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                                > http://www.green-trust.org
                                > http://makingthewebwork.blogspot.com/
                                 

                              • Steve Spence
                                Thank you. Steve Spence Renewable energy and self sufficiency http://www.green-trust.org http://makingthewebwork.blogspot.com/
                                Message 15 of 15 , Aug 4, 2009
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                                  Thank you.

                                  Steve Spence
                                  Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                                  http://www.green-trust.org
                                  http://makingthewebwork.blogspot.com/




                                  jamesonbeam1 wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hi Steve,
                                  >
                                  > Well, most wine yeasts are of the species /Saccharomyces cerevisiae/
                                  > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_cerevisiae>/ /as is Baker's
                                  > yeast. The various strains within this species have alcohol tolerances
                                  > of around the 14% ABV area.
                                  >
                                  > However, there are champagne yeast strains that are members of the
                                  > */Saccharomyces bayanus/* species, such as Lalvin K1V-1116 and EC-1118,
                                  > which are a few of the better know strains.
                                  >
                                  > These strains have an alcohol Tolerance of 18+ % ABV, with some strains
                                  > used in Turbo washes that will go up to 20% ABV.
                                  >
                                  > However, as Z Bob mentioned, high ABV in wines and ciders is not always
                                  > desired if distilling them into fruit brandies, since the higher the
                                  > ABV, the more flavors are lost in the distilling process.
                                  >
                                  > Vino es Veritas,
                                  >
                                  > Jim aka Waldo.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Steve Spence <steve@...> wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >> Aren't certain yeasts more tolerant of higher alcohol levels than
                                  >> others? I was told that wine yeasts do not get killed off as quickly,
                                  >> allowing a higher percentage of alcohol.
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >> Steve Spence
                                  >> Renewable energy and self sufficiency
                                  >> http://www.green-trust.org
                                  >> http://makingthewebwork.blogspot.com/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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