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Re: Enzymes and Methanol

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  • ACKERFORGE
    ... Hey Jim, I remove off the front end about 50-100 mL of distillate for each 20 L of mash or fermented wine in the pot. So if I have a 30 gallon batch or
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 28, 2009
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      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi Dana,
      >
      > Im sure as you know, pectin in the primary cause of methanol in wine
      > fermentations ( fruit based musts). Pectin is also the cause of
      > methanol with grain based fermentations (mashes).
      >
      > Pectinases are definitely a way of breaking down and reducing the amount
      > of pectin in a fruit must or grain mash and thereby reducing the amount
      > of methanol in the fermentation and in the following distillation.
      >
      > Now I hear that Scottzyme Cinn-Free from Scotts Labs -
      > http://www.scottlab.com/products/fermentation/enzymes.asp
      > <http://www.scottlab.com/products/fermentation/enzymes.asp> is a great
      > product for white wines to reduce vinyl phenols and at the same time
      > release pectin trapped juices. For red wines, Scottzyme® Color Pro
      > from Scotts Labs is a great product for red wines. [;)] [;)]
      >
      > Theres a good article I read about the differences between white and red
      > grapes and their skins from Wynboer in S. Africa on Enzymes in
      > Winemaking - http://www.wynboer.co.za/recentarticles/0411enzymes.php3
      > <http://www.wynboer.co.za/recentarticles/0411enzymes.php3>
      >
      > Grappa has been discussed here and in Advanced Distillers, over the
      > years and we have a member - Micio - miciofelice2003
      > <http://profiles.yahoo.com/miciofelice2003> who lives in Italy and is
      > our resident Grappa expert, if you want to get ahold of him.
      >
      > As far as methanol being produced from your distillations, if I recall
      > your using a 30 gallon still from Col. Wilson. Before answering your
      > question regarding worring about the methanol, I need you to clarify
      > something. You said your removing the first 50-100 ml. per liter of
      > distilled product. Now do you mean for every liter your removing 50 to
      > 100 ml? If so, your wasting one hell of alot of good distillate.
      >
      > First off, as I stated in an earlier posting today, the idea that
      > methanol comes out in foreshots is total mis-information and an old
      > wives tale.
      >
      > Please read my earlier message I posted today -
      >
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/message/36361
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/message/36361> This
      > pretty much explains it.
      >
      > Let me know what you ment by your statement above. Then maybe I can
      > help out some more.
      >
      > Thanks.
      >
      > Vino es Veritas,
      >
      > Jim aka Waldo.
      >
      > PS> Got any job openings at your winery for a grunt? Been looking for
      > one :):).
      >
      >
      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "ACKERFORGE" <ackerforge@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello fellow spirit makers/lovers,
      > >
      > > From all I've read and learned, there is quite a connection between
      > enzymes and fruit based mashes and the amount of methanol created as a
      > result of using them. Primarily we are using enzymes in our winery to
      > aid in the breaking down of the grapes to get as much of the desired
      > properties by variety and color as possible. We use two different ones
      > for reds and whites respectively.
      > >
      > > That said, we are distilling grape wine into brandy, primarily for
      > fortification purposes, but we are also going to start making some from
      > white grapes/wine that will be barrel aged and hopefully beverage
      > quality. Our apple brandy is made of fermented apple cider, and to my
      > knowledge no enzymes are used in the process. But, back to grapes.
      > >
      > > The white grape enzyme, as advertised in the producer's catalog says
      > the following:
      > >
      > > "...BrandXXXX is a purified pectinase with very low cinnamyl esterase
      > activity which helps reduce the formation of vinyl phenols. It is used
      > in white must for release of varietal aromas and aromatic precursors. In
      > addition to releasing desirable pectin-trapped aromas, BrandXXXX aids in
      > pressability, yield, settling, clarification, and filtration."
      > >
      > > Not trying to be overly secretive, but as this is a brand name product
      > from a company with whom I do a fair amount of business, I'd prefer not
      > to discuss it in a public forum without their permission, especially as
      > it is in the context of deadly poison. Should anyone be interested in
      > discussing the particular product privately, I will gladly do so via
      > e-mail.
      > >
      > > As to the product's effectiveness, as far as wine goes, it is a great
      > product! With our white grapes, we crush and destem them, adding the
      > enzyme (20 mL/Ton diluted to 10% in an H2O solution) during the crushing
      > phase. Then we pump the grapes into our press, and allow them to soak
      > for about an hour, then commence the press, pumping the juice to tank to
      > chill, clarify, rack and then ferment.
      > >
      > > The hulls of some white varieties, after pressing, are re-hydrated and
      > then fermented and used for grappa production. Our red grape hulls after
      > fermentation and pressing are re-hydrated, refermented, then distilled
      > for grappa. A different, color-enhancing enzyme is used on the reds.
      > >
      > > So how much do I have to worry (any more than usual) about methanol in
      > the distillate? As to the foreshots or heads, we are removing at least
      > the first 50-100 milliliters of distillate per liter of fermented liquid
      > (wine) in the still, and using that for paint thinner or burning in our
      > alcohol lamps for lab tests. We hold the still under 174 degrees F. or
      > ~80 degrees C. until we are collecting nothing, then we turn the heat up
      > to begin catching the main body of the run, stopping the collection in
      > the mid-190's F. or 90 C. or when we get below 110 proof/55%. We do
      > continue collecting liquor down to about 80 proof/40% (as long as it
      > does not taste bad--checking constantly) which is later redistilled.
      > >
      > > Also for the record, we use very good, scientiffically cultured yeast
      > for every fermentation, fermenting in stainless steel, and temperature
      > controlling the fermentations, preferring longer, cooler fermentations
      > to hot, fast ones.
      > >
      > > Thoughts or advice?
      > >
      > > Thanks, Dana
      > >
      >
      Hey Jim,

      I remove off the front end about 50-100 mL of distillate for each 20 L of mash or fermented wine in the pot. So if I have a 30 gallon batch or 113.5 Liter mash, I remove the first 285-579 mL of distillate only. Perhaps, in light of all that's been written, it may be a waste, but I figured better safe than sorry. I am sending samples to labs both from the heads and heart to see what the official ruling is. Thanks for your input. Dana
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