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Two whiskey mash questions

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  • billfitz49
    1. I want to use backset in my second whiskey mash, more than is needed to adjust the pH for the enzymes. But the problem is, if I use too much, the BA-100
    Message 1 of 3 , Jul 2, 2009
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      1. I want to use backset in my second whiskey mash, more than is needed to adjust the pH for the enzymes. But the problem is, if I use too much, the BA-100 and GA-100 enzymes may not work well. Is it acceptable to do the enzyme conversion first and then add more backset?

      2. Which grains and/or flours can be boiled and not add bad tastes? My next mash will be 6.6 kg corn meal, 3.4 kg whole grain rye flour and 3.6 kg sugar. Can I boil the rye flour and corn together for 15 or 20 minutes or could this affect the taste negatively?

      Thanks,
      Bill
    • jamesonbeam1
      Bill, 1. I dont quite understand how adding too much backset will affect the enzymes from working as long as you dont reduce the pH by too much and add new
      Message 2 of 3 , Jul 3, 2009
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        Bill,

        1.   I dont quite understand how adding too much backset will affect the enzymes from working as long as you dont reduce the pH by too much and add new grains.  Most Bourbon and corn whiskey makers adjust there pH to around 5.4 to 5.8 (let me know what the BA/GA-100 instructions state).

        Adding Backset is a common practice in the Bourbon and Tennessee Corn Whiskey industries here in the US.  This is called "Sour Mashing".  Sour mashing not only helps reduce the pH, but adds flavors to the product and keeps consistancy from batch to batch.  The other aspect of sour mashing is to reuse the trub (or barm ) from the last batch (leftover yeast/grains at the bottom of the fermenter).

        In sour mashing,  a certain percentage of backset is added into the new fermentation - usually 30 to 40% (even though Smiley has stated 100% backset which I disagree with).  You then add new grains to this,  along with malted barley for the starch conversions.  Since your using the GA/BA - 100 enzymes and not malted barley,  your still going to have to add new grains for the starch conversion.  Backset should not interfere with the enzyme activity...  Even though Uncle Jesse (Dave) uses sugar instead of enzymes or malt to produce alcohol, you might want to read up on his method - the UJSSM method at: http://wiki.homedistiller.org/index.php/Uncle_Jesse's_Simple_Sour_Mash_Method

        2.  Your second question on boiling grains refers to the process of  "Mashing"  this is again, common pracatice in brewing beer and making whiskey.  You need to heat any dried whole grains (especially corn - which should be cracked) until they gelantinize and make the starches available for conversion to sugar by the enzymes. 

        Malted grains such as barley should never be boild or brought over a temp of 170C since with will destroy the enzymatic activity of the alpha and beta amylase enzymes - also true for all other enzymes we use such as pectinase or AG (and your BA/GA-100, which are nothing more then alpha and beta amylase)..  For whole grains such as rye, corn or wheat, they just need to be simmered (not brought to a full, rolling boil) until they are "mashed" or turned into a mush.  This allows the enzymes to convert the starches into sugars.  I would do some reading on this at: http://homedistiller.org/wash-grain.htm#mashing  or in Brew Your Own site at: http://byo.com/stories?view=groups

        HTH.

        Vino es Veritas,

        Jim aka Waldo.

        Note/question - if your adding sugars to your next batch, then why are you using enzymes???



        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "billfitz49" <billfitz@...> wrote:
        >
        > 1. I want to use backset in my second whiskey mash, more than is needed to adjust the pH for the enzymes. But the problem is, if I use too much, the BA-100 and GA-100 enzymes may not work well. Is it acceptable to do the enzyme conversion first and then add more backset?
        >
        > 2. Which grains and/or flours can be boiled and not add bad tastes? My next mash will be 6.6 kg corn meal, 3.4 kg whole grain rye flour and 3.6 kg sugar. Can I boil the rye flour and corn together for 15 or 20 minutes or could this affect the taste negatively?
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Bill
        >

      • billfitz49
        Hi Jim, Thanks for your detailed post which answered my questions. The New Distillers group is a great resource! Regards, Bill
        Message 3 of 3 , Jul 3, 2009
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          Hi Jim,
          Thanks for your detailed post which answered my questions. The New Distillers group is a great resource!
          Regards,
          Bill




          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Bill,
          >
          > 1. I dont quite understand how adding too much backset will affect the
          > enzymes from working as long as you dont reduce the pH by too much and
          > add new grains. Most Bourbon and corn whiskey makers adjust there pH to
          > around 5.4 to 5.8 (let me know what the BA/GA-100 instructions state).
          >
          > Adding Backset is a common practice in the Bourbon and Tennessee Corn
          > Whiskey industries here in the US. This is called "Sour Mashing". Sour
          > mashing not only helps reduce the pH, but adds flavors to the product
          > and keeps consistancy from batch to batch. The other aspect of sour
          > mashing is to reuse the trub (or barm
          > <http://wiki.homedistiller.org/Barm> ) from the last batch (leftover
          > yeast/grains at the bottom of the fermenter).
          >
          > In sour mashing, a certain percentage of backset is added into the new
          > fermentation - usually 30 to 40% (even though Smiley has stated 100%
          > backset which I disagree with). You then add new grains to this, along
          > with malted barley for the starch conversions. Since your using the
          > GA/BA - 100 enzymes and not malted barley, your still going to have to
          > add new grains for the starch conversion. Backset should not interfere
          > with the enzyme activity... Even though Uncle Jesse (Dave) uses sugar
          > instead of enzymes or malt to produce alcohol, you might want to read up
          > on his method - the UJSSM method at:
          > http://wiki.homedistiller.org/index.php/Uncle_Jesse's_Simple_Sour_Mash_M\
          > ethod
          > <http://wiki.homedistiller.org/index.php/Uncle_Jesse's_Simple_Sour_Mash_\
          > Method>
          >
          > 2. Your second question on boiling grains refers to the process of
          > "Mashing" this is again, common pracatice in brewing beer and making
          > whiskey. You need to heat any dried whole grains (especially corn -
          > which should be cracked) until they gelantinize and make the starches
          > available for conversion to sugar by the enzymes.
          >
          > Malted grains such as barley should never be boild or brought over a
          > temp of 170C since with will destroy the enzymatic activity of the alpha
          > and beta amylase enzymes - also true for all other enzymes we use such
          > as pectinase or AG (and your BA/GA-100, which are nothing more then
          > alpha and beta amylase).. For whole grains such as rye, corn or wheat,
          > they just need to be simmered (not brought to a full, rolling boil)
          > until they are "mashed" or turned into a mush. This allows the enzymes
          > to convert the starches into sugars. I would do some reading on this
          > at: http://homedistiller.org/wash-grain.htm#mashing
          > <http://homedistiller.org/wash-grain.htm#mashing> or in Brew Your Own
          > site at: http://byo.com/stories?view=groups
          > <http://byo.com/stories?view=groups>
          >
          > HTH.
          >
          > Vino es Veritas,
          >
          > Jim aka Waldo.
          >
          > Note/question - if your adding sugars to your next batch, then why are
          > you using enzymes???
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "billfitz49" <billfitz@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > 1. I want to use backset in my second whiskey mash, more than is
          > needed to adjust the pH for the enzymes. But the problem is, if I use
          > too much, the BA-100 and GA-100 enzymes may not work well. Is it
          > acceptable to do the enzyme conversion first and then add more backset?
          > >
          > > 2. Which grains and/or flours can be boiled and not add bad tastes? My
          > next mash will be 6.6 kg corn meal, 3.4 kg whole grain rye flour and 3.6
          > kg sugar. Can I boil the rye flour and corn together for 15 or 20
          > minutes or could this affect the taste negatively?
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > > Bill
          > >
          >
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