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Re: Grains in whiskey

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  • tgfoitwoods
    Vodkaman, Jim is right on about using enzymes with your unmalted grain, and Mason uses the BA-100 and GA-100 to great effect. I just use Crosby and Baker
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 30, 2009
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      Vodkaman,

      Jim is right on about using enzymes with your unmalted grain, and Mason uses the BA-100 and GA-100 to great effect.

      I just use Crosby and Baker Amylase Enzyme Formula, available at my LHBS, to convert my grain starches for whiskey. I have no doubt that Mason's enzymes work better, but mine converts starches pretty well, and makes a great-tasting wash and whiskey, and I've got enough to last me another year.

      While the "recipe" (grain bill, really) is up to you and your tastes, all you have to do is prepare the grains such that the starch is available to be converted to sugars by the enzymes.

      For milled brewers barley, all you need to do is to heat the barley and water to 152F of 67C, hot enough for the enzymes to react fairly quickly, but not so hot as to denature (kill) the enzymes. Let the barley, enzymes, and water stand, with the brewkettle insulated, for about 90 minutes, and the barley starches are converted.

      For flakes or "Torrefied" grains, the starches are already gelatinized and available, so again heat water and grain to 152F and add the enzymes. Let stand also for 90 minutes.

      Whole dry corn is another matter entirely. Corn must be cracked, and hot water must be added to gelatinize the corn starch. I add boiling water to the cracked corn, add heat with *lots* of stirring to raise the temperature to boiling again, insulate, and let stand 90 minutes. Note that this time, I have not added enzymes yet, because the high temperatures would kill them. After 90 minutes, cool the corn mash to 152F and add enzymes. Cover, insulate, and let stand *another* 90 minutes to convert the starches.

      Because whiskeys require so much work and low-abv washes to get much product, and because most brewkettles don't hold enough wash to make much whiskey, consider preparing and converting your grains in multiple brewkettle-sized batches, cooling them to yeast-pitching temperatures, and throwing them (sequentially) into a much larger container (I use a 55-gallon malt-extract drum) to ferment.

      IN that way you can do all the corn in all-corn batches, all the wheat in all-wheat batches, and so on.

      I hope this helps

      Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Since you have all this cracked barley, theres no reason to try getting
      > malted grains for it. Why not ask Mason about the BA-100 and GA-100
      > enzymes you can get from
      > www.milehidistilling.com/Alpha_Amylase_Enzyme_1_Pound_p/13215.htm
      > <http://www.milehidistilling.com/Alpha_Amylase_Enzyme_1_Pound_p/13215.ht\
      > m>
      >
      > He has had great sucess with these and should make a nice whiskey or a
      > nice bourbon with the rye, barley and corn if you want to go to an all
      > grain mash. Just remember - real Bourbon and American (Tennessee) Corn
      > Whiskey needs at least 51% corn grains.
      >
      > Vino es Veritas,
      >
      > Jim aka Waldo.
      >
      >
      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "vodkaman1976" <vodkaman1976@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > I recently had a friend of mine give me 150lb of cracked barley(not
      > malted). If I were to go an all grain route instead of the UJSSM that
      > i've been doing lately, could I use this stuff? I was unsure because of
      > the fact that it is un-malted. Was wanting to shoot for a 10 gallon mash
      > and I thought 5lb cracked corn, a pound of rye flour, 10lbs sugar but
      > unsure about barley maybe 5lbs? Being that it is un-malted would I just
      > have to boil it longer or is it useless?
      > >
      >
    • vodkaman1976
      Excellent breakdown Zymurgy Bob, very helpful and informative. This info is gonna really help me out. I have two keg boilers and 2 propane burners, so I could
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 1, 2009
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        Excellent breakdown Zymurgy Bob, very helpful and informative. This info is gonna really help me out. I have two keg boilers and 2 propane burners, so I could get the corn and the barley going at the same time. I'm ready to tackle this new challenge, but gotta wait now till the Alpha Amylase Enzyme gets delivered. Another question is, Do I really need to be aware of my ph level when going all-grain? I have heard some others talking about the iodine test and a digital ph meter.


        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
        >
        > Vodkaman,
        >
        > Jim is right on about using enzymes with your unmalted grain, and Mason uses the BA-100 and GA-100 to great effect.
        >
        > I just use Crosby and Baker Amylase Enzyme Formula, available at my LHBS, to convert my grain starches for whiskey. I have no doubt that Mason's enzymes work better, but mine converts starches pretty well, and makes a great-tasting wash and whiskey, and I've got enough to last me another year.
        >
        > While the "recipe" (grain bill, really) is up to you and your tastes, all you have to do is prepare the grains such that the starch is available to be converted to sugars by the enzymes.
        >
        > For milled brewers barley, all you need to do is to heat the barley and water to 152F of 67C, hot enough for the enzymes to react fairly quickly, but not so hot as to denature (kill) the enzymes. Let the barley, enzymes, and water stand, with the brewkettle insulated, for about 90 minutes, and the barley starches are converted.
        >
        > For flakes or "Torrefied" grains, the starches are already gelatinized and available, so again heat water and grain to 152F and add the enzymes. Let stand also for 90 minutes.
        >
        > Whole dry corn is another matter entirely. Corn must be cracked, and hot water must be added to gelatinize the corn starch. I add boiling water to the cracked corn, add heat with *lots* of stirring to raise the temperature to boiling again, insulate, and let stand 90 minutes. Note that this time, I have not added enzymes yet, because the high temperatures would kill them. After 90 minutes, cool the corn mash to 152F and add enzymes. Cover, insulate, and let stand *another* 90 minutes to convert the starches.
        >
        > Because whiskeys require so much work and low-abv washes to get much product, and because most brewkettles don't hold enough wash to make much whiskey, consider preparing and converting your grains in multiple brewkettle-sized batches, cooling them to yeast-pitching temperatures, and throwing them (sequentially) into a much larger container (I use a 55-gallon malt-extract drum) to ferment.
        >
        > IN that way you can do all the corn in all-corn batches, all the wheat in all-wheat batches, and so on.
        >
        > I hope this helps
        >
        > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Since you have all this cracked barley, theres no reason to try getting
        > > malted grains for it. Why not ask Mason about the BA-100 and GA-100
        > > enzymes you can get from
        > > www.milehidistilling.com/Alpha_Amylase_Enzyme_1_Pound_p/13215.htm
        > > <http://www.milehidistilling.com/Alpha_Amylase_Enzyme_1_Pound_p/13215.ht\
        > > m>
        > >
        > > He has had great sucess with these and should make a nice whiskey or a
        > > nice bourbon with the rye, barley and corn if you want to go to an all
        > > grain mash. Just remember - real Bourbon and American (Tennessee) Corn
        > > Whiskey needs at least 51% corn grains.
        > >
        > > Vino es Veritas,
        > >
        > > Jim aka Waldo.
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "vodkaman1976" <vodkaman1976@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > I recently had a friend of mine give me 150lb of cracked barley(not
        > > malted). If I were to go an all grain route instead of the UJSSM that
        > > i've been doing lately, could I use this stuff? I was unsure because of
        > > the fact that it is un-malted. Was wanting to shoot for a 10 gallon mash
        > > and I thought 5lb cracked corn, a pound of rye flour, 10lbs sugar but
        > > unsure about barley maybe 5lbs? Being that it is un-malted would I just
        > > have to boil it longer or is it useless?
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • gff_stwrt
        Hi, folks, My son-in-law has sown a few hundred acres of barley this year so if the rains fall later in the year (it s had a good start) I will have as much as
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 1, 2009
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          Hi, folks,

          My son-in-law has sown a few hundred acres of barley this year so if the rains fall later in the year (it's had a good start) I will have as much as I like.
          I have never fermented grains before to distill in my pot still, only sugar washes which I tried first and which were pretty poor, and some fruit brandies, the later ones of which seem quite good.
          So, given my inexperience and the fact that the barley will be free, would you suggest I just lay in a heap of enzymes and study how to use them?
          They won't be unreasonably expensive? If larger quantities are a lot cheaper that would probably be the way to go, if they have a long shelf life??

          Thanks for your help.

          The Baker

          PS I wish there was a way to swap samples....... G.


          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "vodkaman1976" <vodkaman1976@...> wrote:
          >
          > Excellent breakdown Zymurgy Bob, very helpful and informative. This info is gonna really help me out. I have two keg boilers and 2 propane burners, so I could get the corn and the barley going at the same time. I'm ready to tackle this new challenge, but gotta wait now till the Alpha Amylase Enzyme gets delivered. Another question is, Do I really need to be aware of my ph level when going all-grain? I have heard some others talking about the iodine test and a digital ph meter.
          >
          >
          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Vodkaman,
          > >
          > > Jim is right on about using enzymes with your unmalted grain, and Mason uses the BA-100 and GA-100 to great effect.
          > >
          > > I just use Crosby and Baker Amylase Enzyme Formula, available at my LHBS, to convert my grain starches for whiskey. I have no doubt that Mason's enzymes work better, but mine converts starches pretty well, and makes a great-tasting wash and whiskey, and I've got enough to last me another year.
          > >
          > > While the "recipe" (grain bill, really) is up to you and your tastes, all you have to do is prepare the grains such that the starch is available to be converted to sugars by the enzymes.
          > >
          > > For milled brewers barley, all you need to do is to heat the barley and water to 152F of 67C, hot enough for the enzymes to react fairly quickly, but not so hot as to denature (kill) the enzymes. Let the barley, enzymes, and water stand, with the brewkettle insulated, for about 90 minutes, and the barley starches are converted.
          > >
          > > For flakes or "Torrefied" grains, the starches are already gelatinized and available, so again heat water and grain to 152F and add the enzymes. Let stand also for 90 minutes.
          > >
          > > Whole dry corn is another matter entirely. Corn must be cracked, and hot water must be added to gelatinize the corn starch. I add boiling water to the cracked corn, add heat with *lots* of stirring to raise the temperature to boiling again, insulate, and let stand 90 minutes. Note that this time, I have not added enzymes yet, because the high temperatures would kill them. After 90 minutes, cool the corn mash to 152F and add enzymes. Cover, insulate, and let stand *another* 90 minutes to convert the starches.
          > >
          > > Because whiskeys require so much work and low-abv washes to get much product, and because most brewkettles don't hold enough wash to make much whiskey, consider preparing and converting your grains in multiple brewkettle-sized batches, cooling them to yeast-pitching temperatures, and throwing them (sequentially) into a much larger container (I use a 55-gallon malt-extract drum) to ferment.
          > >
          > > IN that way you can do all the corn in all-corn batches, all the wheat in all-wheat batches, and so on.
          > >
          > > I hope this helps
          > >
          > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
          > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Since you have all this cracked barley, theres no reason to try getting
          > > > malted grains for it. Why not ask Mason about the BA-100 and GA-100
          > > > enzymes you can get from
          > > > www.milehidistilling.com/Alpha_Amylase_Enzyme_1_Pound_p/13215.htm
          > > > <http://www.milehidistilling.com/Alpha_Amylase_Enzyme_1_Pound_p/13215.ht\
          > > > m>
          > > >
          > > > He has had great sucess with these and should make a nice whiskey or a
          > > > nice bourbon with the rye, barley and corn if you want to go to an all
          > > > grain mash. Just remember - real Bourbon and American (Tennessee) Corn
          > > > Whiskey needs at least 51% corn grains.
          > > >
          > > > Vino es Veritas,
          > > >
          > > > Jim aka Waldo.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "vodkaman1976" <vodkaman1976@>
          > > > wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > I recently had a friend of mine give me 150lb of cracked barley(not
          > > > malted). If I were to go an all grain route instead of the UJSSM that
          > > > i've been doing lately, could I use this stuff? I was unsure because of
          > > > the fact that it is un-malted. Was wanting to shoot for a 10 gallon mash
          > > > and I thought 5lb cracked corn, a pound of rye flour, 10lbs sugar but
          > > > unsure about barley maybe 5lbs? Being that it is un-malted would I just
          > > > have to boil it longer or is it useless?
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • jamesonbeam1
          To me Baker, this would be an excellent opportunity for you to really get your hands dirty and make an attempt to malt your own barley, this would not only
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 1, 2009
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            To me Baker, this would be an excellent opportunity for you to really get your hands dirty and make an attempt to malt your own barley,  this would not only give you the satifaction of telling people you make your own malted whiskey "from the ground up", but will add to your overall experience as "The Compleat Distiller" ;).  Instead of using enzymes, try it....

            While malting is a bit of work and somewhat of a pain in the butt, it is fun and not too hard technically.  There is a great description of how to malt in the Brew Your Own site at: http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/44-malt/1097-make-your-own-malt

            Also, Tony's site has some info on it.  Again, i think this would be a great opportunity for ya.

            Vino es Veritas,

            Jim aka Waldo.


            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "gff_stwrt" <gff_stwrt@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi, folks,
            >
            > My son-in-law has sown a few hundred acres of barley this year so if the rains fall later in the year (it's had a good start) I will have as much as I like.
            > I have never fermented grains before to distill in my pot still, only sugar washes which I tried first and which were pretty poor, and some fruit brandies, the later ones of which seem quite good.
            > So, given my inexperience and the fact that the barley will be free, would you suggest I just lay in a heap of enzymes and study how to use them?
            > They won't be unreasonably expensive? If larger quantities are a lot cheaper that would probably be the way to go, if they have a long shelf life??
            >
            > Thanks for your help.
            >
            > The Baker
            >
            > PS I wish there was a way to swap samples....... G.

          • rye_junkie1
            ... Sorry fellas, I have been swamped here lately both at home and work. I highly recommend the BA 100 and GA 100 enzymes from Mile Hi. The BA stuff will be
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 1, 2009
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              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "vodkaman1976" <vodkaman1976@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > I recently had a friend of mine give me 150lb of cracked barley(not malted). If I were to go an all grain route instead of the UJSSM that i've been doing lately, could I use this stuff? I was unsure because of the fact that it is un-malted. Was wanting to shoot for a 10 gallon mash and I thought 5lb cracked corn, a pound of rye flour, 10lbs sugar but unsure about barley maybe 5lbs? Being that it is un-malted would I just have to boil it longer or is it useless?
              >


              Sorry fellas, I have been swamped here lately both at home and work.
              I highly recommend the BA 100 and GA 100 enzymes from Mile Hi. The BA stuff will be similar to the stuff that Z Bob uses but the GA is also necessary because it converts the non fermentables that the Alpha Amylase is unable to. This will give a lower terminating gravity and therefore a higher yield. I recommend a PH meter as the BA and GA instructions call for adjusting the PH separately for both enzymes.
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/files/Robbie%20Mac/
              With 150lbs of barley grain you could make yourself a nice scotch style whiskey although traditional single malt uses Malted barley.
              As far as boiling goes. I bring my water with PH adjusted for the BA 100 to a good rolling boil, stir in my grain and cut the heat off. Cover it with a lid and go mow the lawn for an hour. Come back and stir in the BA 100(after temp adjustment if needed) usually using a paint mixer. You will notice that this enzyme Liquefies the porridge you have made and makes it more manageable. Mow for another hour and then add the GA 100. I generally let it cool to yeast pitch temp naturally over night. Pitch yeast and aerate it for a few hours. A tablespoon of MG for nutrients helps alot but isnt necessary.
              You are on the way to some of the hardest work you have ever done. Well worth it though.

              Mason
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