Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: dissolving sugar

Expand Messages
  • edbar44
    That s certainly worth a try, sure beats trying to boil all that water but then again no inversion.
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 1, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      That's certainly worth a try, sure beats trying to boil all that water but then again no inversion.

      >
      > Just thinking about this and would like anyone to say if I am wrong.
      >
      > Suppose you fill your fermenter with hot water from a hose connected to your hot water system.
      > Then pour in some of your sugar, and stir briskly for a couple of minutes. I have used a six-foot garden stake in my 80-litre former cherry barrel fermenter.
      > Pour in more sugar, stir, more sugar.......
      > And this is the bit I'm not sure of;
      >
      > Don't worry about trying to incorporate all of the sugar into a syrup at this time.
      > When it tastes sweetish it should be fine, the syrup will be strong enough to start the yeast working well, and without stressing it at all, which can be a disadvantage of having all the sugar incorporated at the start.
      > When the temperature is about right (if you aren't using a thermometer it should be tepid, neither cool or really warm on your hand) put in the yeast.
      > Next day when you check it, give it a short, VERY vigorous stir, which will incorporate more of the sugar that would be resting on the bottom, and incorporate more oxygen.
      > (Remember I said it shouldn't matter if sugar is not all mixed in at first).
      > Every day repeat the short, brisk stir which will bring in more oxygen and in a few days all the sugar will be mixed in from the bottom of the fermenter.
      > And you will have, in effect, gradually added the sugar rather than put it all in at the start.
      > Which is what some people do anyway, so as to match the adding of the food supply for the yeast (the sugar) to the food needs of the rapidly increasing yeast population, and not to stress the yeast at the start.
      >
      > Maybe this won't be an ideal way to do it but on the face of it it looks good to me, and someone will say if it's not a good idea!
      > The incorporation of the oxygen by BRISK stirring is important, partly because (I think) the hot water you use at the start may be somewhat deficient in oxygen.
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > The Baker
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "edbar44" <edbar44@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Well, like I said in an earlier post, I was bored with the 25 liter washes so I got a 30 gallon container and have been using that. Only problem is it takes hours for me to dissolve all the sugar but I guess thats the price i have to pay, just finishing a strip run now and pulled down 12 liters from 14 gallons, 5 hours. I'll do the other half tomorrow and then I'll have 24+ liters for a spirit run some time next week.
      >
    • edbar44
      ... Thanks Harry, More good advice. Suppose I m going to use 80#, would you start out with say 50# maybe around 1.080 or so and then feed the balance in 3-4
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 1, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        > >
        > > Hello, Ed, hi folks,
        > >
        > > Just thinking about this and would like anyone to say if I am wrong.
        > >
        > > Suppose you fill your fermenter with hot water from a hose connected to your hot water system.
        > > Then pour in some of your sugar, and stir briskly for a couple of minutes. I have used a six-foot garden stake in my 80-litre former cherry barrel fermenter.
        > > Pour in more sugar, stir, more sugar.......
        > > And this is the bit I'm not sure of;
        > >
        > > Don't worry about trying to incorporate all of the sugar into a syrup at this time.
        > > When it tastes sweetish it should be fine, the syrup will be strong enough to start the yeast working well, and without stressing it at all, which can be a disadvantage of having all the sugar incorporated at the start.
        > > When the temperature is about right (if you aren't using a thermometer it should be tepid, neither cool or really warm on your hand) put in the yeast.
        > > Next day when you check it, give it a short, VERY vigorous stir, which will incorporate more of the sugar that would be resting on the bottom, and incorporate more oxygen.
        > > (Remember I said it shouldn't matter if sugar is not all mixed in at first).
        > > Every day repeat the short, brisk stir which will bring in more oxygen and in a few days all the sugar will be mixed in from the bottom of the fermenter.
        > > And you will have, in effect, gradually added the sugar rather than put it all in at the start.
        > > Which is what some people do anyway, so as to match the adding of the food supply for the yeast (the sugar) to the food needs of the rapidly increasing yeast population, and not to stress the yeast at the start.
        > >
        > > Maybe this won't be an ideal way to do it but on the face of it it looks good to me, and someone will say if it's not a good idea!
        > > The incorporation of the oxygen by BRISK stirring is important, partly because (I think) the hot water you use at the start may be somewhat deficient in oxygen.
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > >
        > > The Baker
        >
        >
        >
        > Couple of GOTCHA's in that.
        >
        > 1. Watch for Mt Vesuvius style eruptions when stirring and/or adding sugar to larger ferments. When step-feeding sugar, always have it dissolved first (liquid form). Prevents nucleation and gas eruptions.
        >
        > 2. Once fermentation is established, DO NOT keep adding air. Additional air allows yeast to operate aerobically. All they will do is produce more yeast and no alcohol. Yield suffers. You need to add the liquid sugar very gently.
        >
        >
        > Step-feeding is a good idea for large batches. It prevents osmotic shock to yeast, and heat buildup which makes yeast produce nasty things. But you need to start the batch off small, allowing for the water that will be added later along with the sugars. Hold back 1 litre of water (from the total) for each 1 kg of sugar you are adding later. When making the next feed, warm the addition water to dissolve the sugar. Prepare it well before addition time, to let it cool off. Also keep it covered before use so you don't introduce bacteria.
        >
        >
        > Slainte!
        > regards Harry

        Thanks Harry,

        More good advice. Suppose I'm going to use 80#, would you start out with say 50# maybe around 1.080 or so and then feed the balance in 3-4 increments with inverted sugar? Seem realistic. Could I go higher on the SG. I did a batch where I started out at 1.150 and it finished at .980 and 7 Brix. Took 11 days
      • gff_stwrt
        Hi, folks, and thanks, Harry for your comments. I have made some observations and added some thoughts (interspersed). The Baker ... *What I described is pretty
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 1, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi, folks, and thanks, Harry for your comments.
          I have made some observations and added some thoughts (interspersed).

          The Baker

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "edbar44" <edbar44@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > > >
          > > > Hello, Ed, hi folks,
          > > >
          > > > Just thinking about this and would like anyone to say if I am wrong.
          > > >
          > > > Suppose you fill your fermenter with hot water from a hose connected to your hot water system.
          > > > Then pour in some of your sugar, and stir briskly for a couple of minutes. I have used a six-foot garden stake in my 80-litre former cherry barrel fermenter.
          > > > Pour in more sugar, stir, more sugar.......
          > > > And this is the bit I'm not sure of;
          > > >
          > > > Don't worry about trying to incorporate all of the sugar into a syrup at this time.
          > > > When it tastes sweetish it should be fine, the syrup will be strong enough to start the yeast working well, and without stressing it at all, which can be a disadvantage of having all the sugar incorporated at the start.
          > > > When the temperature is about right (if you aren't using a thermometer it should be tepid, neither cool or really warm on your hand) put in the yeast.
          > > > Next day when you check it, give it a short, VERY vigorous stir, which will incorporate more of the sugar that would be resting on the bottom, and incorporate more oxygen.
          > > > (Remember I said it shouldn't matter if sugar is not all mixed in at first).
          > > > Every day repeat the short, brisk stir which will bring in more oxygen and in a few days all the sugar will be mixed in from the bottom of the fermenter.
          > > > And you will have, in effect, gradually added the sugar rather than put it all in at the start.
          > > > Which is what some people do anyway, so as to match the adding of the food supply for the yeast (the sugar) to the food needs of the rapidly increasing yeast population, and not to stress the yeast at the start.
          > > >
          > > > Maybe this won't be an ideal way to do it but on the face of it it looks good to me, and someone will say if it's not a good idea!
          > > > The incorporation of the oxygen by BRISK stirring is important, partly because (I think) the hot water you use at the start may be somewhat deficient in oxygen.
          > > >
          > > > Regards,
          > > >
          > > > The Baker
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Couple of GOTCHA's in that.
          > >
          > > 1. Watch for Mt Vesuvius style eruptions when stirring and/or adding sugar to larger ferments. When step-feeding sugar, always have it dissolved first (liquid form). Prevents nucleation and gas eruptions.

          *What I described is pretty much what I have done a few times.
          In this particular case the sugar is not being 'added' in the later stages of fermentation. And especially, not in a dry form. Though it is being incorporated into the fermenting liquid, from the bottom of the barrel.
          I just hadn't taken the time and effort to thoroughly dissolve all the sugar before adding the yeast, just a fairly quick stir and some splashing and thrashing to incorporate oxygen in the initial stages of the fermentation.
          So this undissolved sugar is sitting on the bottom of the fermenter and is thoroughly saturated by the water. It would seem that that may be the reason there are no eruptions. It seems also to be the reason that it doesn't take much stirring on later days to dissolve it.
          > >
          > > 2. Once fermentation is established, DO NOT keep adding air. Additional air allows yeast to operate aerobically. All they will do is produce more yeast and no alcohol. Yield suffers.

          snip

          *Agreed. But it seems some people, including me, like to give the ferment a brief stir every day to bring up the stuff from the bottom, (without the surface agitation which would add noticable quantities of oxygen) and this is enough to dissolve a lot more of the sugar each day. Certainly after the first and maybe the second day it would be best to stir fairly briefly, from the bottom, to incorporate the sugar but not (I repeat) to thrash the top as in the first (and maybe second) day which incorporates oxygen.
          > >
          > >
          snip> >
          > >
          > > Slainte!
          > > regards Harry
          >
        • rye_junkie1
          ... My 2 cents here. Step feeding is something I have done for a while now even though i do smaller batches at low gravity(1.050-1.080). Last week I took a
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 1, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            > > Couple of GOTCHA's in that.
            > >
            > > 1. Watch for Mt Vesuvius style eruptions when stirring and/or adding sugar to larger ferments. When step-feeding sugar, always have it dissolved first (liquid form). Prevents nucleation and gas eruptions.
            > >
            > > 2. Once fermentation is established, DO NOT keep adding air. Additional air allows yeast to operate aerobically. All they will do is produce more yeast and no alcohol. Yield suffers. You need to add the liquid sugar very gently.
            > >
            > >
            > > Step-feeding is a good idea for large batches. It prevents osmotic shock to yeast, and heat buildup which makes yeast produce nasty things. But you need to start the batch off small, allowing for the water that will be added later along with the sugars. Hold back 1 litre of water (from the total) for each 1 kg of sugar you are adding later. When making the next feed, warm the addition water to dissolve the sugar. Prepare it well before addition time, to let it cool off. Also keep it covered before use so you don't introduce bacteria.
            > >
            > >
            > > Slainte!
            > > regards Harry
            >
            > Thanks Harry,
            >
            > More good advice. Suppose I'm going to use 80#, would you start out with say 50# maybe around 1.080 or so and then feed the balance in 3-4 increments with inverted sugar? Seem realistic. Could I go higher on the SG. I did a batch where I started out at 1.150 and it finished at .980 and 7 Brix. Took 11 days
            >


            My 2 cents here. Step feeding is something I have done for a while now even though i do smaller batches at low gravity(1.050-1.080). Last week I took a MUM wash using 12Lbs of sugar to 15%potential abv in 7 days by step feeding it 4 lbs at a time. Starting sg was 1.050 and when it would go below 1.010 I would dissolve another 4 lb bag and bring the gravity back to 1.050. Total volume when it was done was 5 gallons. I am pretty confident that it would still be fermenting if I had just done the 12lbs at once plus I would have needed to start with a larger volume of at least 6-7 gallons.
            For the wash you are considering i would go with 3-4 additions as you say but keep the SG low. 1.070 or lower. I bet you will find that you can actually ferment more sugar faster with this method.

            Mason
          • Harry
            ... Try this... Day 1. 27# sugar dissolved in 3 gal hot water. Add 19 gal cool water for total 22 gal @ 85°F (30C). Add all the nutrients (you must use
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 1, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "edbar44" <edbar44@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks Harry,
              >
              > More good advice. Suppose I'm going to use 80#, would you start out with say 50# maybe around 1.080 or so and then feed the balance in 3-4 increments with inverted sugar? Seem realistic. Could I go higher on the SG. I did a batch where I started out at 1.150 and it finished at .980 and 7 Brix. Took 11 days
              >


              Try this...

              Day 1. 27# sugar dissolved in 3 gal hot water. Add 19 gal cool water for total 22 gal @ 85°F (30C). Add all the nutrients (you must use nutrients), and all the yeast.

              Day 2. 27# sugar dissolved in 9 gals warm water. Let cool then add to the mash slowly. Cover it.

              Day 3. 26# sugar dissolved in 9 gals warm water. Let cool then add to the mash slowly. Cover and airlock it.

              Should be around 46 gals volume in a 55 gal drum.
              Should finish in 6-7 days.


              Total sugar = 80#
              Total water = 40 gals
              Potential alc = 12% vol. or 6 gals @ 95%
              Should make 15 gals 41+% product

              Betcha can't drink all that on your own before xmas. ;)


              Slainte!
              regards Harry
            • edbar44
              Okay, I adjusted this to fit into my 30 gallon container, just got it going yesterday, started with 1.085, this morning it s at 1.080 and really rolling, when
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 5, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Okay, I adjusted this to fit into my 30 gallon container, just got it going yesterday, started with 1.085, this morning it's at 1.080 and really rolling, when would you suggest I add the next feed?

                No, I don't think I could drink it before Xmas but maybe New Years ;-)
                >
                > Try this...
                >
                > Day 1. 27# sugar dissolved in 3 gal hot water. Add 19 gal cool water for total 22 gal @ 85°F (30C). Add all the nutrients (you must use nutrients), and all the yeast.
                >
                > Day 2. 27# sugar dissolved in 9 gals warm water. Let cool then add to the mash slowly. Cover it.
                >
                > Day 3. 26# sugar dissolved in 9 gals warm water. Let cool then add to the mash slowly. Cover and airlock it.
                >
                > Should be around 46 gals volume in a 55 gal drum.
                > Should finish in 6-7 days.
                >
                >
                > Total sugar = 80#
                > Total water = 40 gals
                > Potential alc = 12% vol. or 6 gals @ 95%
                > Should make 15 gals 41+% product
                >
                > Betcha can't drink all that on your own before xmas. ;)
                >
                >
                > Slainte!
                > regards Harry
                >
              • Harry
                ... Sounds like it took a while to establish the yeast colony. Give it another day or so then test it. Get it below 1.020 before adding each feed. Slainte!
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 5, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "edbar44" <edbar44@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Okay, I adjusted this to fit into my 30 gallon container, just got it going yesterday, started with 1.085, this morning it's at 1.080 and really rolling, when would you suggest I add the next feed?



                  Sounds like it took a while to establish the yeast colony. Give it another day or so then test it. Get it below 1.020 before adding each feed.


                  Slainte!
                  regards Harry
                • edbar44
                  I just put in the last step feed, SG was 1.015, very active, pH 4.1, Brix was 13. I added the final feed and Brix went to 17 and the SG to 1.040. I am at 80#
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 9, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I just put in the last step feed, SG was 1.015, very active, pH 4.1, Brix was 13. I added the final feed and Brix went to 17 and the SG to 1.040. I am at 80# in 28 gallons now but my calculations show over 20% potential, does this seem right?

                    > > Thanks Harry,
                    > >
                    > > More good advice. Suppose I'm going to use 80#, would you start out with say 50# maybe around 1.080 or so and then feed the balance in 3-4 increments with inverted sugar? Seem realistic. Could I go higher on the SG. I did a batch where I started out at 1.150 and it finished at .980 and 7 Brix. Took 11 days
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > Try this...
                    >
                    > Day 1. 27# sugar dissolved in 3 gal hot water. Add 19 gal cool water for total 22 gal @ 85°F (30C). Add all the nutrients (you must use nutrients), and all the yeast.
                    >
                    > Day 2. 27# sugar dissolved in 9 gals warm water. Let cool then add to the mash slowly. Cover it.
                    >
                    > Day 3. 26# sugar dissolved in 9 gals warm water. Let cool then add to the mash slowly. Cover and airlock it.
                    >
                    > Should be around 46 gals volume in a 55 gal drum.
                    > Should finish in 6-7 days.
                    >
                    >
                    > Total sugar = 80#
                    > Total water = 40 gals
                    > Potential alc = 12% vol. or 6 gals @ 95%
                    > Should make 15 gals 41+% product
                    >
                    > Betcha can't drink all that on your own before xmas. ;)
                    >
                    >
                    > Slainte!
                    > regards Harry
                    >
                  • rye_junkie1
                    ... Looks right to me. You need 37 gallons total volume to get down to 15% and 39.5 to get into a better 14% range depending on what yeast you are using.
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 9, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "edbar44" <edbar44@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I just put in the last step feed, SG was 1.015, very active, pH 4.1, Brix was 13. I added the final feed and Brix went to 17 and the SG to 1.040. I am at 80# in 28 gallons now but my calculations show over 20% potential, does this seem right?




                      Looks right to me. You need 37 gallons total volume to get down to 15%
                      and 39.5 to get into a better 14% range depending on what yeast you are using. Even with EC1118 that wash is coming to a halt here in the near future. Bakers yeast will go to 13% if its healthy and others will hit 14 and 15. Harry's well laid out instructions gave a 12% wash at 40 gallons total volume. Would have been no problem for bakers yeast.

                      Mason
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.