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Tomato Paste (was) Re: Uncle Jess's Easy First wash Recipe...ferment time?

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  • Harry
    ... , Seth Kircher ... book Moonshine . A good read by the way. His findings led him to write that
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 1, 2009
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      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Seth Kircher" <seth_kircher@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Just curious.  What is the function of the tomato paste?

      >
      Mason "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...> replied:

      >
      > The first place I saw tomato paste referenced was in Mathew Rowleys book "Moonshine".  A good read by the way.  His findings led him to write that it makes a decent primary nutrient for yeast if stuff like DAP and other yeast nutrients are not available.  The MUM wash ferment time DOUBLES with out it.  I know for a fact that a 6oz can lowers PH 2-3 points in a 5 gallon wash but then so will lemon or lime juice and neither of those seem to help the MUM wash.  Some say it does nothing at all and has no purpose in a wash.  I beg to differ.  Honestly though I dont have a really good explanation and havent read one either that I know of.
      >
      > Mason
      > I just believe.
      >

      Ok.  For a long while I too couldn't see the value of tomato paste in a wash (apart from pH control).  Every analysis I saw on tomato paste showed only trace amounts of a few elements.

      In fact the sodium chloride (salt) levels were a bit of a worry as salt retards yeast activity (dries 'em out & kills 'em).

      Then it dawned on me....Vitamin C (ascorbic acid, 20mg per 100g) is a CATALYST !!  Its presence in metabolic activity (human AND yeastie beasties) accelerates the chemical reactions and uptake of available nutrients (other vitamins & minerals).

      So to prove the theory I tried Vitamin C  powder as a substitute and left out the tomato paste.  The ferment was slow.  What gives?  Another mental flash......if there's no "other vitamins & minerals" (no tomato paste or yeast supplement) then there's nothing to catalyse (speed up).

      So I tried Vitamin C and a proprietary yeast nutrient powder.  Reaction?....VERY  FAST.  Near TURBO-like!

      Then I tried tomato paste with added Vitamin C.  Almost the same speed as the nutrient / VitC combination.

      Conclusion...tomato paste has enough trace elements & VitC to enhance a yeast fermentation and is a good alternative source of yeast nutrients.  The high salt content doesn't seem to affect the fermentation.

      Further, VitC is a very good catalyst to yeast nutrient metabolism.  And in conjunction with a properly formulated yeast nutrient supplement can be the spark needed in fermentations.

      Be aware that the VitC itself is NOT used up.  Catalysts speed up a reaction without themselves being changed or used up in the reaction.  Don't ask me how.  I'm not a chemist, but that's how they work.

      So the added VitC will remain in the finished wash.  This is a good thing because ascorbic acid (VitC) has a few more tricks to perform for us.  VitC is a non-volatile substance, meaning it doesn't distil over into your distillate.  In fact ascorbic acid (specifically L-ascorbic acid 2-glucoside) is a known "  sulfide production inhibitor".  This means that it can contribute to the lowering of the volatile sulfides present in your wash.  That means there's not so much sulfide for the copper to take out, which means cleaner distillate and end-product. 

      HTH
      Slainte!
      regards Harry
      ps...another snippet to file away in your notes.  :)

    • Rasputin Paracelsus
      Very interesting. Can you suggest some standard quantities of Vit C and nutrient per vol of wash? R
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 2, 2009
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        Very interesting. Can you suggest some standard quantities of Vit C and
        nutrient per vol of wash?

        R

        Harry wrote:
        >
        > <snip>
        >
        > Then it dawned on me....Vitamin C (ascorbic acid, 20mg per 100g) is a
        > CATALYST !! Its presence in metabolic activity (human AND yeastie
        > beasties) accelerates the chemical reactions and uptake of available
        > nutrients (other vitamins & minerals).
        >
        > So to prove the theory I tried Vitamin C powder as a substitute
        > and left out the tomato paste. The ferment was slow. What gives?
        > Another mental flash......if there's no "other vitamins & minerals"
        > (no tomato paste or yeast supplement) then there's nothing to catalyse
        > (speed up).
        >
        > So I tried Vitamin C and a proprietary yeast nutrient powder.
        > Reaction?....VERY FAST. Near TURBO-like!
        >
        > <snip>
        >
        > HTH
        > Slainte!
        > regards Harry
        > ps...another snippet to file away in your notes. :)
        >
        >
      • M W
        I m thinking he said it there, Vitamin C (ascorbic acid, 20mg per 100g) but might be misunderstanding. ... ...
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 2, 2009
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          I'm thinking he said it there, "Vitamin C (ascorbic acid, 20mg per 100g)" but might be misunderstanding.

          --- On Thu, 4/2/09, Rasputin Paracelsus <rasputin@...> wrote:
          > From: Rasputin Paracelsus <rasputin@...>
          > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Tomato Paste (was) Re: Uncle Jess's Easy First wash Recipe...ferment time?
          > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 6:36 AM
          > Very interesting. Can you suggest some standard quantities
          > of Vit C and
          > nutrient per vol of wash?
          >
          > R
          >
          > Harry wrote:
          > >
          > > <snip>
          > >
          > > Then it dawned on me....Vitamin C (ascorbic acid, 20mg
          > per 100g) is a
          > > CATALYST !! Its presence in metabolic activity (human
          ...
        • Rasputin Paracelsus
          Hi Not sure. At least, not really clear to me (does one measure wash by 100g?)... and then there s the nutrient. R
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 2, 2009
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            Hi

            Not sure. At least, not really clear to me (does one measure wash by
            100g?)... and then there's the nutrient.

            R

            M W wrote:
            > I'm thinking he said it there, "Vitamin C (ascorbic acid, 20mg per 100g)" but might be misunderstanding.
            >
            > --- On Thu, 4/2/09, Rasputin Paracelsus <rasputin@...> wrote:
            >
            >> From: Rasputin Paracelsus <rasputin@...>
            >> Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Tomato Paste (was) Re: Uncle Jess's Easy First wash Recipe...ferment time?
            >> To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            >> Date: Thursday, April 2, 2009, 6:36 AM
            >> Very interesting. Can you suggest some standard quantities
            >> of Vit C and
            >> nutrient per vol of wash?
            >>
            >> R
            >>
            >>
          • Harry
            ... Actually that s the average amount of VitC in tomato paste, 20mg VitC per 100g paste. A small amount, but small is what s normal in the world of
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 2, 2009
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              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, M W <rd232d@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > I'm thinking he said it there, "Vitamin C (ascorbic acid, 20mg per 100g)" but might be misunderstanding.



              Actually that's the average amount of VitC in tomato paste, 20mg VitC per 100g paste. A small amount, but small is what's normal in the world of micro-nutrients & yeast cells.

              A level teaspoon of VitC powder (pure, not that fizzy stuff that's full of bicarb) contains 3.7g (3700mg) and is more than enough for a 25 litre batch of thin mash sugar wash.

              There's 4 main types of commercial nutrients, and all are called yeast nutrients by HBS staff who often don't know any better.

              1. A white powder that's pure Di-ammonium Phosphate (DAP).

              2. A tan coloured powder that's just dead yeast hulls.

              3. A tan coloured powder that's a mixture of di-ammonium phosphate, yeast hulls, biotin and vitamins. It is often called "energiser".

              4. A tan coloured specially grown & killed yeast from Whitelabs called "Servomyces". This is pumped with trace minerals like zinc.

              Because most of them are a similar colour, they're often confusing.

              But the one you want in distillers sugar washes is No.3, the "energiser", because it contains all the things that yeast can't get from the nutrient-poor sugar wash. Tomato paste is similar in composition to the "energiser", No.3.

              Grain mashes are different. They contain most all of the necessaries with the exception of adequate zinc. No.4 is the go for all-grain wash.

              HTH
              Slainte!
              regards Harry
            • faw8888
              ... Alex Hi, Could you please give me more details on that recipe I m in Australia and some of the items you guys mention I m not familiar with, cheers Frank
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 4, 2009
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                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hi,
                >
                > I think you´re taking about the "normal" UJSM. I suggest you to speed things a little to add nutrients (1/4 cup) and more yeast than the amount suggested by Uncle Jess. The last one I prepared I used 1/4 cup of Superstart yeast and 1/4 cup of yeast nutrient that for 7 pounds of cracked corn and 10 pounds of white sugar. Took 3 days to ferment.
                >
                > Alex
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "kenfyoozed387" <kenfyoozed387@> wrote:
                > >
                > > What would be the usual ferment time for this wash? This is my first time. It started at a SG of 1.077 and 5 days later is 1.038. Should this be taking this long? Its is still bubbling through the airlock nicely. Thanks.
                > >
                >
                Alex Hi,
                Could you please give me more details on that recipe I'm in Australia and some of the items you guys mention I'm not familiar with, cheers Frank
              • castillo.alex2008
                Hi Frank Well UJSM is a way of doing fake american whiskey (which heavily relies on the use of corn instead of malt); that´s called monshine in USA; this
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 4, 2009
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                  Hi Frank

                  Well UJSM is a way of doing "fake" american whiskey (which heavily relies on the use of corn instead of malt); that´s called "monshine" in USA; this one is called "sour mash" since it uses the backset for a new fermentation. there are multiple ways to do it, but the easiest one is as follows:

                  Take 7 pounds of cracked corn,

                  7 or 10 pounds of white sugar,

                  Add yeast (some kind of yeast known as low or no ester producing such as distiller´s yeast or EC-1118, etc, the idea is to get the majority of the flavor solely from the corn so don´t use baker´s yeast. Alternatively you may use some good whiskey yeast),

                  Yeast nutrients (1/4 cup), not suggested in the original formula, but I use it just to not have the yeast starving and so speed things a little;

                  And water to top to 25 liters.

                  Let if ferment (3 to 4 days). Distill and keep everything up to 95-96C, so don´t do cuts. (this is called the "sweet mash")

                  In your fermentation vessel keep all the corn and some liquid (you have live and active yeast there) and add some 2 gallons of water to prevent them (the yeast) to die; After distillation keep some 2 other gallons of backset (the remaining liquid after the distillation), let it cool to room temp and add it to the fermentation bucket; now you may add new sugar. Do not add more yeast. Collect the floating corn, if any, and replace it with an equal amount of new corn.

                  Ferment again.

                  Distill again, now adding all the distillate you collected at the first distillation (the "sweet" mash);

                  Do your cuts (i.e. first 200 mls, heads, everything form there to 85-87C middle cut and from there to 95-96C tails.)

                  Dilute the middle cut to 65% ABV.

                  Age with american oak, i.e. 20 grams of oak (some 1/4 cup) per gallon as much as you can (6 months, 1 year?)

                  Dilute to your likings (i.e. 40% ABV)

                  Enjoy.

                  As I said there are some modifications you can do like adding malt or other grains to the corn, or enzymes to get more alcohol directly from the corn, etc. Probably others will give you more ideas to try about this, since as I said before there´s plenty room to experiment.

                  HTH

                  Alex
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