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Re: Rye Whiskey First Time Q's

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  • jamesonbeam1
    On a sidenote Mason and Harry, The Info base has the capability for all Mods (in addition to myself) to update and add entries. I originally had it planned
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 3, 2009
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      On a sidenote Mason and Harry,

      The Info base has the capability for all Mods (in addition to myself) to update and add entries.  I originally had it planned for anyone to add entries - but got worried beacuse of certain people (you know who...;))...

      I've been keeping every new entry or edit in both the Links file and the Database file - still doing some thinking here hehe.

      Vino es Veritas,

      Jim aka Waldo.

      "rye_junkie1" rye_junkie@  wrote:

      Jim this question comes up alot lately. Can you post this link in the data base for easy finding until I can get a decent Pdf written on the subject.

      Mason

      In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" gnikomson2000@  wrote:

      Maybe it's time the mods collated & updated, augmented (IOW
      overhauled)  the FAQ.    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/files/F.A.Q.

      I'd do it but as you know I'm busier than a dog with two tails right
      now.

       Slainte!
      regards Harry

    • rabeb25
      Ok, so I did my first run of this rye. I split it up in batches of 6 gallons. I wanted to make cuts like a real batch to get a feel for it..Worst case senerio
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 20, 2009
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        Ok, so I did my first run of this rye. I split it up in batches of 6 gallons. I wanted to make cuts like a real batch to get a feel for it..Worst case senerio I would just dump it back in for the second run. Here is what I found:

        I collected 10 250ml lots(discarding the first 150ml)... labeled them, hyrdo tested them to get alc% and volume. I stopped collecting at about 30% (that is not in the pictures)
        1 54% 260ml
        2 53% 220ml
        3 50% 220ml
        4 50% 230ml
        5 47% 240ml
        6 45% 150ml
        7 45% 250ml
        8 42% 260ml
        9 40% 250ml
        10 35% 250ml
        Here is what it looks like:
        http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/110.JPG

        Close up of 1-3:
        http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/123.JPG

        Close up of 4-6:
        http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/456.JPG

        Close up of 7-9:
        http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/789.JPG

        Close up of 8-10:
        http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/8910.JPG


        Now on to the cuts...

        I can pretty distinctly smell the differences between 1 and say 5, as I can tell the difference from 10 and say 6. My question to ya'll is how much of them (heads and tails) do I want in the finished spirit? I know this is where the pro's just know... but I just need a little coaxing!

        Here is what I am getting:
        1 Very aromatic esters with a slight fruit smell

        2 Very slight fruit/ester

        3-8 Pretty neutral

        9 Slight esters hint of something off

        10 Medium to heavy esters with a slight almost burnt plastic.

        So If were to guess I would do 3-8, maybe half of each of 2,8, toss the rest into the next batch... Am I close?!??!

        Thanks!
      • tgfoitwoods
        I m probably a hard-ass when it comes to making the cuts, but to me it s all about quality. I think from your descriptions, it s pretty clear to me that I d
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 20, 2009
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          I'm probably a hard-ass when it comes to making the cuts, but to me it's all about quality. I think from your descriptions, it's pretty clear to me that I'd save 3-8 for drinking, and use the rest as feints. Of course, it'll spoil you for most of the over-the-counter crap that's out there.

          Do you plan to oak/age it?

          Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rabeb25" <rabeb25@...> wrote:
          >
          > Ok, so I did my first run of this rye. I split it up in batches of 6 gallons. I wanted to make cuts like a real batch to get a feel for it..Worst case senerio I would just dump it back in for the second run. Here is what I found:
          >
          > I collected 10 250ml lots(discarding the first 150ml)... labeled them, hyrdo tested them to get alc% and volume. I stopped collecting at about 30% (that is not in the pictures)
          > 1 54% 260ml
          > 2 53% 220ml
          > 3 50% 220ml
          > 4 50% 230ml
          > 5 47% 240ml
          > 6 45% 150ml
          > 7 45% 250ml
          > 8 42% 260ml
          > 9 40% 250ml
          > 10 35% 250ml
          > Here is what it looks like:
          > http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/110.JPG
          >
          > Close up of 1-3:
          > http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/123.JPG
          >
          > Close up of 4-6:
          > http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/456.JPG
          >
          > Close up of 7-9:
          > http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/789.JPG
          >
          > Close up of 8-10:
          > http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/8910.JPG
          >
          >
          > Now on to the cuts...
          >
          > I can pretty distinctly smell the differences between 1 and say 5, as I can tell the difference from 10 and say 6. My question to ya'll is how much of them (heads and tails) do I want in the finished spirit? I know this is where the pro's just know... but I just need a little coaxing!
          >
          > Here is what I am getting:
          > 1 Very aromatic esters with a slight fruit smell
          >
          > 2 Very slight fruit/ester
          >
          > 3-8 Pretty neutral
          >
          > 9 Slight esters hint of something off
          >
          > 10 Medium to heavy esters with a slight almost burnt plastic.
          >
          > So If were to guess I would do 3-8, maybe half of each of 2,8, toss the rest into the next batch... Am I close?!??!
          >
          > Thanks!
          >
        • rabeb25
          ... ^Thanks! I will do as you say, I would rather quality over quantity any day of the week. I was planning on combining the hearts and aging on charred white
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 20, 2009
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            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
            >
            > I'm probably a hard-ass when it comes to making the cuts, but to me it's all about quality. I think from your descriptions, it's pretty clear to me that I'd save 3-8 for drinking, and use the rest as feints. Of course, it'll spoil you for most of the over-the-counter crap that's out there.
            >
            > Do you plan to oak/age it?
            >
            > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
            >
            >
            ^Thanks! I will do as you say, I would rather quality over quantity any day of the week.

            I was planning on combining the hearts and aging on charred white oak for awhile.. I am open to anything you have in mind also!

            Would love some ratio's and time lines also.

            Thanks!
          • tgfoitwoods
            Rabeb, Good for you on the quality decision. I m not good with numbers or exact times for aging, but if you drop 5-8 finger-sized splints of charred or toasted
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 20, 2009
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              Rabeb,

              Good for you on the quality decision. I'm not good with numbers or exact times for aging, but if you drop 5-8 finger-sized splints of charred or toasted oak into a gallon jug of product, you'll have a good start.

              As it colors from the oak, be sure to oxidize the wood chemicals by bubbling air or oxygen through the product, maybe every week or so. When the color in a glass (it'll seem too dark in the jug) is nice, start tasting. After that you're on your own. In all probability, the last drop you taste will be the best. Next time you have to make more to last through the tasting process.

              Some people complain of too much oak, but I feel if it's oxidized properly, the smoothness and complexity is all for the good.

              Lots of luck with those good-sounding hearts.

              Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rabeb25" <rabeb25@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I'm probably a hard-ass when it comes to making the cuts, but to me it's all about quality. I think from your descriptions, it's pretty clear to me that I'd save 3-8 for drinking, and use the rest as feints. Of course, it'll spoil you for most of the over-the-counter crap that's out there.
              > >
              > > Do you plan to oak/age it?
              > >
              > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
              > >
              > >
              > ^Thanks! I will do as you say, I would rather quality over quantity any day of the week.
              >
              > I was planning on combining the hearts and aging on charred white oak for awhile.. I am open to anything you have in mind also!
              >
              > Would love some ratio's and time lines also.
              >
              > Thanks!
              >
            • rabeb25
              ... Hey thanks again... I do have a oxygen stone and pure o2 that I used for beer making. How long do you recommend to do the oxygen per time?? 30 seconds?
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 21, 2009
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                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                >
                > Rabeb,
                >
                > Good for you on the quality decision. I'm not good with numbers or exact times for aging, but if you drop 5-8 finger-sized splints of charred or toasted oak into a gallon jug of product, you'll have a good start.
                >
                > As it colors from the oak, be sure to oxidize the wood chemicals by bubbling air or oxygen through the product, maybe every week or so. When the color in a glass (it'll seem too dark in the jug) is nice, start tasting. After that you're on your own. In all probability, the last drop you taste will be the best. Next time you have to make more to last through the tasting process.
                >
                > Some people complain of too much oak, but I feel if it's oxidized properly, the smoothness and complexity is all for the good.
                >
                > Lots of luck with those good-sounding hearts.
                >
                > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                Hey thanks again... I do have a oxygen stone and pure o2 that I used for beer making. How long do you recommend to do the oxygen per time?? 30 seconds? What is the oxygen doing for me??

                Thanks!
                > >
                >
              • tgfoitwoods
                Rabeb, Your oxygen rig is perfect, and 30-60 seconds at a time is probably great. The purpose of the oxygen is to oxidize various harsh or astringent-tasting
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 21, 2009
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                  Rabeb,

                  Your oxygen rig is perfect, and 30-60 seconds at a time is probably great. The purpose of the oxygen is to oxidize various harsh or astringent-tasting wood chemicals, to a class of chemical called vanillins. These vanillins give softness, complexity, and some vanilla-like flavors to the liquor.

                  As a very rough rule of thumb, if you thing the wood in your booze tastes harsh, try some more oxygen. I don't think you can ever get too much oxygen.

                  Like Ken says, somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rabeb25" <rabeb25@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Rabeb,
                  > >
                  > > Good for you on the quality decision. I'm not good with numbers ----snip----
                  > > Lots of luck with those good-sounding hearts.
                  > >
                  > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                  >
                  > Hey thanks again... I do have a oxygen stone and pure o2 that I used for beer making. How long do you recommend to do the oxygen per time?? 30 seconds? What is the oxygen doing for me??
                  >
                  > Thanks!
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • goodneighbor69
                  will 02 from those brazing kits work for this ? small bottle like plumbing torch.
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 21, 2009
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                    will 02 from those brazing kits work for this ? small bottle like
                    plumbing torch.
                  • rabeb25
                    So today I ran some more stuff. I ran the other 6 gallons (with feints added) and then made cuts again(for practice). Dumped everything back in and ran it all
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 22, 2009
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                      So today I ran some more stuff.

                      I ran the other 6 gallons (with feints added) and then made cuts again(for practice). Dumped everything back in and ran it all a second time (including the hearts from this first run) I also added a gallon of water.
                      The heads came in at about 80% and the hearts came in at about 68-53%, I believe. Stripped to to about 5% to add back into the next run. Ended up with about 1/2 gallon of 55% (after it was cut with water) all said and done. Distress aging half and the other half is just traditionally aged.
                      Jug 1 will go in and out of the freezer for 5 weeks, along with once a week getting pure o2 via a stone for 30 seconds, it also has 1/3 of a medium toast spiral, and 1/3 of a charred spiral.
                      Jug 2 will have half of a spiral.


                      Man that was a lot of work to get 1/2 gallon of rye!! I may need to step up my volumes!
                      Anything else I am missing?

                      Thanks
                    • tgfoitwoods
                      Well, don t keep us hanging! How does it taste? And you are correct; grain whisk(e)ys are a *lot* of work for what little you get. Aren t you proud of what you
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 22, 2009
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                        Well, don't keep us hanging! How does it taste?

                        And you are correct; grain whisk(e)ys are a *lot* of work for what little you get.

                        Aren't you proud of what you did?

                        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rabeb25" <rabeb25@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > So today I ran some more stuff.
                        >
                        > I ran the other 6 gallons (with feints added) and then made cuts again(for practice). Dumped everything back in and ran it all a second time (including the hearts from this first run) I also added a gallon of water.
                        > The heads came in at about 80% and the hearts came in at about 68-53%, I believe. Stripped to to about 5% to add back into the next run. Ended up with about 1/2 gallon of 55% (after it was cut with water) all said and done. Distress aging half and the other half is just traditionally aged.
                        > Jug 1 will go in and out of the freezer for 5 weeks, along with once a week getting pure o2 via a stone for 30 seconds, it also has 1/3 of a medium toast spiral, and 1/3 of a charred spiral.
                        > Jug 2 will have half of a spiral.
                        >
                        >
                        > Man that was a lot of work to get 1/2 gallon of rye!! I may need to step up my volumes!
                        > Anything else I am missing?
                        >
                        > Thanks
                        >
                      • Zapata Vive
                        So, let me make sure I have this straight. You took your first wash, and rather than stripping it (no cuts), you made cuts on the first distillation
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 23, 2009
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                          So, let me make sure I have this straight.  You took your first wash, and rather than stripping it (no cuts), you  made cuts on the first distillation (discarding some as foreshots, saving heads and tails, and combining the middle run).  Then you took another wash, and did the same thing, but mixed it all back together (all the cuts or what was left in the still too?).  Then you mixed the middle run of batch 1 with all the fractions of batch 2 (including stillage or not?) +1 gallon water, redistilled and made the first cut at 80, and the tails cut somewhere between 68 and 53 all the way down to 5%?
                           
                          Wow, not that there is anything wrong with it, but it sure will be unique, and a pain to replicate if you love it!  A couple thoughts.
                           
                          1.  Are the %'s reported corrected for temperature?
                          2.  The tails cut on your final run (between 68 and 53) is a large range, do you not know what it really was?
                          3.  Just pointing out that most of us do whiskey in 2 main stages, stripping and spirit runs.  Most of us strip probably 2-6 batches, making NO cuts, combining the low wines for the spirit run where we make our cuts.  Not that this is gospel, some people do it in just one run, but it sounds like you did the equivalent of 1.75 runs by making cuts on a "stripping" run, but then mixing that middle run n with the equivalent of undistilled wash (if I understood the distilling and mixing back together of still charge #2 correctly).  It's an interesting process you did there!
                          4.  Yeah it's a lot of work, but it seems you added a little bit more work than the "standard" strip, strip, spirit run, as the stripping runs are usually carefree with no cuts and little interaction required.  I understand you say you did it for practice, and that is a good idea for sure, you get practice, and drinkable spirit too.
                          5.  Yeah, come on, how does it taste?  Sure it'll be a little fiery in it's raw white dog state, but how is it?
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: rabeb25
                          Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 8:29 PM
                          Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Rye Whiskey First Time Q's

                          So today I ran some more stuff.

                          I ran the other 6 gallons (with feints added) and then made cuts again(for practice). Dumped everything back in and ran it all a second time (including the hearts from this first run) I also added a gallon of water.
                          The heads came in at about 80% and the hearts came in at about 68-53%, I believe. Stripped to to about 5% to add back into the next run. Ended up with about 1/2 gallon of 55% (after it was cut with water) all said and done. Distress aging half and the other half is just traditionally aged.
                          Jug 1 will go in and out of the freezer for 5 weeks, along with once a week getting pure o2 via a stone for 30 seconds, it also has 1/3 of a medium toast spiral, and 1/3 of a charred spiral.
                          Jug 2 will have half of a spiral.

                          Man that was a lot of work to get 1/2 gallon of rye!! I may need to step up my volumes!
                          Anything else I am missing?

                          Thanks

                        • rabeb25
                          Well the only reason why I did it so complicated was to try to educate me on cuts. I will only do stripping runs, with a second final cut from here on out. But
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 23, 2009
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                            Well the only reason why I did it so complicated was to try to educate me on cuts. I will only do stripping runs, with a second final cut from here on out.
                            But here is what I did if this makes sense..

                            12 gallon batch (6 gallon still)

                            Run 1: 6 gallons wash
                            150ml forshots tossed
                            Collected as if it was a spirit run
                            Collected 10 glasses, labeled and alc% them
                            Using sniff and taste made cuts (for training)
                            Kept the hearts

                            Run 2: 6 gallons wash
                            Added Feints from run 1
                            150ml forshots tossed
                            Collected as if it was a spirit run
                            Collected 14 glasses, labeled and alc% them
                            Using sniff and taste made cuts (for training)

                            Run 3: Real final Cut 1.5 gallons spirit with 1 gallon water (so boiler would not run dry)
                            150ml Foreshots tossed
                            Collected in 200ml lots
                            Collected 12 ( I think at work trying to go off the top of my head)
                            First heads came in at around 80%
                            Hearts came in at about 68%-53%
                            Tails came in at 52%-40%
                            Collected down to 5%

                            All said and done ended up with 1/2 gallon (diluted to 55%) of spirit

                            Does That make better sense?

                            From now on just going to do stripping runs and final cuts, but I wanted to get a chance to get used to making "the cut"


                            Thanks.
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