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Rye Whiskey First Time Q's

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  • rabeb25
    So, I made up a malt rye brew 51% malted rye 28% 2 row barley 20% brewers grade corn syrup 44grams us-05 ale yeast og 1.086 12 gallons I am going to do a run
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 2, 2009
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      So, I made up a malt rye brew
      51% malted rye
      28% 2 row barley
      20% brewers grade corn syrup
      44grams us-05 ale yeast

      og 1.086
      12 gallons

      I am going to do a run with the PSII and do it as a pot. This will be
      the first time I am using the PSII as a pot.

      Can you give me some advice.. i.e do you run with packing in (if so
      how much) how do you make your cuts, how many times do you runs these
      though?...etc
      I am a multi-award winning brewer so my processes are sound.

      Thanks!
    • rye_junkie1
      ... Shoot for 1.060. ... Run it without packing and no reflux. As you say this is your first time pot stillin I would triple distill. First run strip to
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 2, 2009
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        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rabeb25" <rabeb25@...> wrote:
        >
        > So, I made up a malt rye brew
        > 51% malted rye
        > 28% 2 row barley
        > 20% brewers grade corn syrup
        > 44grams us-05 ale yeast
        >
        > og 1.086  Gravity is a little high for a whiskey but it will be OK.  Shoot for 1.060.
        > 12 gallons
        >
        > I am going to do a run with the PSII and do it as a pot. This will be
        > the first time I am using the PSII as a pot.
        >
        > Can you give me some advice.. i.e do you run with packing in (if so
        > how much) how do you make your cuts, how many times do you runs these
        > though?...etc
        Run it without packing and no reflux.  As you say this is your first time pot stillin I would triple distill.  First run strip to 212F,  second run take it to 203F third run make cuts as so:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/message/33810
        Jim this question comes up alot lately.  Can you post this link in the data base for easy finding
        until I can get a decent Pdf written on the subject.
        > I am a multi-award winning brewer so my processes are sound.
        Glad to have you along for the ride in this wonderful hobby, BUT, Prepare to be humbled.
        >
        > Thanks!


        Mason
      • rabeb25
        ... Thansk for the reply! Oh for sure, I am prepared, its just nice to have a background on making the liquor to distill :) So at least I can get that out of
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 2, 2009
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          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rabeb25" <rabeb25@> wrote:
          > >
          > > So, I made up a malt rye brew
          > > 51% malted rye
          > > 28% 2 row barley
          > > 20% brewers grade corn syrup
          > > 44grams us-05 ale yeast
          > >
          > > og 1.086 Gravity is a little high for a whiskey but it will be OK.
          > Shoot for 1.060.
          > > 12 gallons
          > >
          > > I am going to do a run with the PSII and do it as a pot. This will be
          > > the first time I am using the PSII as a pot.
          > >
          > > Can you give me some advice.. i.e do you run with packing in (if so
          > > how much) how do you make your cuts, how many times do you runs these
          > > though?...etc
          > Run it without packing and no reflux. As you say this is your first
          > time pot stillin I would triple distill. First run strip to 212F,
          > second run take it to 203F third run make cuts as so:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/message/33810
          > Jim this question comes up alot lately. Can you post this link in the
          > data base for easy finding
          > until I can get a decent Pdf written on the subject.
          > > I am a multi-award winning brewer so my processes are sound.
          > Glad to have you along for the ride in this wonderful hobby, BUT,
          > Prepare to be humbled.
          > >
          > > Thanks!
          >
          >
          > Mason
          Thansk for the reply!

          Oh for sure, I am prepared, its just nice to have a background on
          making the liquor to distill :) So at least I can get that out of the
          way when troubleshooting.

          I just kind of came up with the recipe on the fly, how does it compare
          to things?

          I have refluxed before a few timess, but just sugar washes. so this
          should be a new learning experience!


          >
        • Harry
          ... Maybe it s time the mods collated & updated, augmented (IOW overhauled) the FAQ. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/files/F.A.Q. I d do it but
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 2, 2009
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            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...>
            wrote:

            > Jim this question comes up alot lately. Can you post this link in the
            > data base for easy finding
            > until I can get a decent Pdf written on the subject.
            >
            > Mason
            >


            Maybe it's time the mods collated & updated, augmented (IOW overhauled)
            the FAQ. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/files/F.A.Q.

            I'd do it but as you know I'm busier than a dog with two tails right
            now.


            Slainte!
            regards Harry
          • jamesonbeam1
            Yes, but have to think about the best way - also have a few questions on Harry s new idea in the PMs - give me a bit of thinking time [;)] . Been a few years
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 3, 2009
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              Yes, but have to think about the best way - also have a few questions on Harry's new idea in the PMs - give me a bit of thinking time ;).  Been a few years since I've been out of IT management.

              Vino es Veritas,

              Jim aka Waldo. 


              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" rye_junkie@
              > wrote:
              >
              > > Jim this question comes up alot lately. Can you post this link in the
              > > data base for easy finding
              > > until I can get a decent Pdf written on the subject.
              > >
              > > Mason
              > >
              >
              >
              > Maybe it's time the mods collated & updated, augmented (IOW overhauled)
              > the FAQ. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/files/F.A.Q.
              >
              > I'd do it but as you know I'm busier than a dog with two tails right
              > now.
              >
              >
              > Slainte!
              > regards Harry
              >

            • jamesonbeam1
              On a sidenote Mason and Harry, The Info base has the capability for all Mods (in addition to myself) to update and add entries. I originally had it planned
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 3, 2009
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                On a sidenote Mason and Harry,

                The Info base has the capability for all Mods (in addition to myself) to update and add entries.  I originally had it planned for anyone to add entries - but got worried beacuse of certain people (you know who...;))...

                I've been keeping every new entry or edit in both the Links file and the Database file - still doing some thinking here hehe.

                Vino es Veritas,

                Jim aka Waldo.

                "rye_junkie1" rye_junkie@  wrote:

                Jim this question comes up alot lately. Can you post this link in the data base for easy finding until I can get a decent Pdf written on the subject.

                Mason

                In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" gnikomson2000@  wrote:

                Maybe it's time the mods collated & updated, augmented (IOW
                overhauled)  the FAQ.    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/files/F.A.Q.

                I'd do it but as you know I'm busier than a dog with two tails right
                now.

                 Slainte!
                regards Harry

              • rabeb25
                Ok, so I did my first run of this rye. I split it up in batches of 6 gallons. I wanted to make cuts like a real batch to get a feel for it..Worst case senerio
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 20, 2009
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                  Ok, so I did my first run of this rye. I split it up in batches of 6 gallons. I wanted to make cuts like a real batch to get a feel for it..Worst case senerio I would just dump it back in for the second run. Here is what I found:

                  I collected 10 250ml lots(discarding the first 150ml)... labeled them, hyrdo tested them to get alc% and volume. I stopped collecting at about 30% (that is not in the pictures)
                  1 54% 260ml
                  2 53% 220ml
                  3 50% 220ml
                  4 50% 230ml
                  5 47% 240ml
                  6 45% 150ml
                  7 45% 250ml
                  8 42% 260ml
                  9 40% 250ml
                  10 35% 250ml
                  Here is what it looks like:
                  http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/110.JPG

                  Close up of 1-3:
                  http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/123.JPG

                  Close up of 4-6:
                  http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/456.JPG

                  Close up of 7-9:
                  http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/789.JPG

                  Close up of 8-10:
                  http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/8910.JPG


                  Now on to the cuts...

                  I can pretty distinctly smell the differences between 1 and say 5, as I can tell the difference from 10 and say 6. My question to ya'll is how much of them (heads and tails) do I want in the finished spirit? I know this is where the pro's just know... but I just need a little coaxing!

                  Here is what I am getting:
                  1 Very aromatic esters with a slight fruit smell

                  2 Very slight fruit/ester

                  3-8 Pretty neutral

                  9 Slight esters hint of something off

                  10 Medium to heavy esters with a slight almost burnt plastic.

                  So If were to guess I would do 3-8, maybe half of each of 2,8, toss the rest into the next batch... Am I close?!??!

                  Thanks!
                • tgfoitwoods
                  I m probably a hard-ass when it comes to making the cuts, but to me it s all about quality. I think from your descriptions, it s pretty clear to me that I d
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 20, 2009
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                    I'm probably a hard-ass when it comes to making the cuts, but to me it's all about quality. I think from your descriptions, it's pretty clear to me that I'd save 3-8 for drinking, and use the rest as feints. Of course, it'll spoil you for most of the over-the-counter crap that's out there.

                    Do you plan to oak/age it?

                    Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rabeb25" <rabeb25@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Ok, so I did my first run of this rye. I split it up in batches of 6 gallons. I wanted to make cuts like a real batch to get a feel for it..Worst case senerio I would just dump it back in for the second run. Here is what I found:
                    >
                    > I collected 10 250ml lots(discarding the first 150ml)... labeled them, hyrdo tested them to get alc% and volume. I stopped collecting at about 30% (that is not in the pictures)
                    > 1 54% 260ml
                    > 2 53% 220ml
                    > 3 50% 220ml
                    > 4 50% 230ml
                    > 5 47% 240ml
                    > 6 45% 150ml
                    > 7 45% 250ml
                    > 8 42% 260ml
                    > 9 40% 250ml
                    > 10 35% 250ml
                    > Here is what it looks like:
                    > http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/110.JPG
                    >
                    > Close up of 1-3:
                    > http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/123.JPG
                    >
                    > Close up of 4-6:
                    > http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/456.JPG
                    >
                    > Close up of 7-9:
                    > http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/789.JPG
                    >
                    > Close up of 8-10:
                    > http://stuff.bryanrabeconstruction.com/BEER/MISC/ryew/8910.JPG
                    >
                    >
                    > Now on to the cuts...
                    >
                    > I can pretty distinctly smell the differences between 1 and say 5, as I can tell the difference from 10 and say 6. My question to ya'll is how much of them (heads and tails) do I want in the finished spirit? I know this is where the pro's just know... but I just need a little coaxing!
                    >
                    > Here is what I am getting:
                    > 1 Very aromatic esters with a slight fruit smell
                    >
                    > 2 Very slight fruit/ester
                    >
                    > 3-8 Pretty neutral
                    >
                    > 9 Slight esters hint of something off
                    >
                    > 10 Medium to heavy esters with a slight almost burnt plastic.
                    >
                    > So If were to guess I would do 3-8, maybe half of each of 2,8, toss the rest into the next batch... Am I close?!??!
                    >
                    > Thanks!
                    >
                  • rabeb25
                    ... ^Thanks! I will do as you say, I would rather quality over quantity any day of the week. I was planning on combining the hearts and aging on charred white
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 20, 2009
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                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I'm probably a hard-ass when it comes to making the cuts, but to me it's all about quality. I think from your descriptions, it's pretty clear to me that I'd save 3-8 for drinking, and use the rest as feints. Of course, it'll spoil you for most of the over-the-counter crap that's out there.
                      >
                      > Do you plan to oak/age it?
                      >
                      > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                      >
                      >
                      ^Thanks! I will do as you say, I would rather quality over quantity any day of the week.

                      I was planning on combining the hearts and aging on charred white oak for awhile.. I am open to anything you have in mind also!

                      Would love some ratio's and time lines also.

                      Thanks!
                    • tgfoitwoods
                      Rabeb, Good for you on the quality decision. I m not good with numbers or exact times for aging, but if you drop 5-8 finger-sized splints of charred or toasted
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 20, 2009
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                        Rabeb,

                        Good for you on the quality decision. I'm not good with numbers or exact times for aging, but if you drop 5-8 finger-sized splints of charred or toasted oak into a gallon jug of product, you'll have a good start.

                        As it colors from the oak, be sure to oxidize the wood chemicals by bubbling air or oxygen through the product, maybe every week or so. When the color in a glass (it'll seem too dark in the jug) is nice, start tasting. After that you're on your own. In all probability, the last drop you taste will be the best. Next time you have to make more to last through the tasting process.

                        Some people complain of too much oak, but I feel if it's oxidized properly, the smoothness and complexity is all for the good.

                        Lots of luck with those good-sounding hearts.

                        Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rabeb25" <rabeb25@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I'm probably a hard-ass when it comes to making the cuts, but to me it's all about quality. I think from your descriptions, it's pretty clear to me that I'd save 3-8 for drinking, and use the rest as feints. Of course, it'll spoil you for most of the over-the-counter crap that's out there.
                        > >
                        > > Do you plan to oak/age it?
                        > >
                        > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                        > >
                        > >
                        > ^Thanks! I will do as you say, I would rather quality over quantity any day of the week.
                        >
                        > I was planning on combining the hearts and aging on charred white oak for awhile.. I am open to anything you have in mind also!
                        >
                        > Would love some ratio's and time lines also.
                        >
                        > Thanks!
                        >
                      • rabeb25
                        ... Hey thanks again... I do have a oxygen stone and pure o2 that I used for beer making. How long do you recommend to do the oxygen per time?? 30 seconds?
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 21, 2009
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                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Rabeb,
                          >
                          > Good for you on the quality decision. I'm not good with numbers or exact times for aging, but if you drop 5-8 finger-sized splints of charred or toasted oak into a gallon jug of product, you'll have a good start.
                          >
                          > As it colors from the oak, be sure to oxidize the wood chemicals by bubbling air or oxygen through the product, maybe every week or so. When the color in a glass (it'll seem too dark in the jug) is nice, start tasting. After that you're on your own. In all probability, the last drop you taste will be the best. Next time you have to make more to last through the tasting process.
                          >
                          > Some people complain of too much oak, but I feel if it's oxidized properly, the smoothness and complexity is all for the good.
                          >
                          > Lots of luck with those good-sounding hearts.
                          >
                          > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                          Hey thanks again... I do have a oxygen stone and pure o2 that I used for beer making. How long do you recommend to do the oxygen per time?? 30 seconds? What is the oxygen doing for me??

                          Thanks!
                          > >
                          >
                        • tgfoitwoods
                          Rabeb, Your oxygen rig is perfect, and 30-60 seconds at a time is probably great. The purpose of the oxygen is to oxidize various harsh or astringent-tasting
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 21, 2009
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                            Rabeb,

                            Your oxygen rig is perfect, and 30-60 seconds at a time is probably great. The purpose of the oxygen is to oxidize various harsh or astringent-tasting wood chemicals, to a class of chemical called vanillins. These vanillins give softness, complexity, and some vanilla-like flavors to the liquor.

                            As a very rough rule of thumb, if you thing the wood in your booze tastes harsh, try some more oxygen. I don't think you can ever get too much oxygen.

                            Like Ken says, somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

                            Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rabeb25" <rabeb25@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "tgfoitwoods" <zymurgybob@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Rabeb,
                            > >
                            > > Good for you on the quality decision. I'm not good with numbers ----snip----
                            > > Lots of luck with those good-sounding hearts.
                            > >
                            > > Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller
                            >
                            > Hey thanks again... I do have a oxygen stone and pure o2 that I used for beer making. How long do you recommend to do the oxygen per time?? 30 seconds? What is the oxygen doing for me??
                            >
                            > Thanks!
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • goodneighbor69
                            will 02 from those brazing kits work for this ? small bottle like plumbing torch.
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 21, 2009
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                              will 02 from those brazing kits work for this ? small bottle like
                              plumbing torch.
                            • rabeb25
                              So today I ran some more stuff. I ran the other 6 gallons (with feints added) and then made cuts again(for practice). Dumped everything back in and ran it all
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 22, 2009
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                                So today I ran some more stuff.

                                I ran the other 6 gallons (with feints added) and then made cuts again(for practice). Dumped everything back in and ran it all a second time (including the hearts from this first run) I also added a gallon of water.
                                The heads came in at about 80% and the hearts came in at about 68-53%, I believe. Stripped to to about 5% to add back into the next run. Ended up with about 1/2 gallon of 55% (after it was cut with water) all said and done. Distress aging half and the other half is just traditionally aged.
                                Jug 1 will go in and out of the freezer for 5 weeks, along with once a week getting pure o2 via a stone for 30 seconds, it also has 1/3 of a medium toast spiral, and 1/3 of a charred spiral.
                                Jug 2 will have half of a spiral.


                                Man that was a lot of work to get 1/2 gallon of rye!! I may need to step up my volumes!
                                Anything else I am missing?

                                Thanks
                              • tgfoitwoods
                                Well, don t keep us hanging! How does it taste? And you are correct; grain whisk(e)ys are a *lot* of work for what little you get. Aren t you proud of what you
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 22, 2009
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                                  Well, don't keep us hanging! How does it taste?

                                  And you are correct; grain whisk(e)ys are a *lot* of work for what little you get.

                                  Aren't you proud of what you did?

                                  Zymurgy Bob, a simple potstiller

                                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rabeb25" <rabeb25@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > So today I ran some more stuff.
                                  >
                                  > I ran the other 6 gallons (with feints added) and then made cuts again(for practice). Dumped everything back in and ran it all a second time (including the hearts from this first run) I also added a gallon of water.
                                  > The heads came in at about 80% and the hearts came in at about 68-53%, I believe. Stripped to to about 5% to add back into the next run. Ended up with about 1/2 gallon of 55% (after it was cut with water) all said and done. Distress aging half and the other half is just traditionally aged.
                                  > Jug 1 will go in and out of the freezer for 5 weeks, along with once a week getting pure o2 via a stone for 30 seconds, it also has 1/3 of a medium toast spiral, and 1/3 of a charred spiral.
                                  > Jug 2 will have half of a spiral.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Man that was a lot of work to get 1/2 gallon of rye!! I may need to step up my volumes!
                                  > Anything else I am missing?
                                  >
                                  > Thanks
                                  >
                                • Zapata Vive
                                  So, let me make sure I have this straight. You took your first wash, and rather than stripping it (no cuts), you made cuts on the first distillation
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Mar 23, 2009
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                                    So, let me make sure I have this straight.  You took your first wash, and rather than stripping it (no cuts), you  made cuts on the first distillation (discarding some as foreshots, saving heads and tails, and combining the middle run).  Then you took another wash, and did the same thing, but mixed it all back together (all the cuts or what was left in the still too?).  Then you mixed the middle run of batch 1 with all the fractions of batch 2 (including stillage or not?) +1 gallon water, redistilled and made the first cut at 80, and the tails cut somewhere between 68 and 53 all the way down to 5%?
                                     
                                    Wow, not that there is anything wrong with it, but it sure will be unique, and a pain to replicate if you love it!  A couple thoughts.
                                     
                                    1.  Are the %'s reported corrected for temperature?
                                    2.  The tails cut on your final run (between 68 and 53) is a large range, do you not know what it really was?
                                    3.  Just pointing out that most of us do whiskey in 2 main stages, stripping and spirit runs.  Most of us strip probably 2-6 batches, making NO cuts, combining the low wines for the spirit run where we make our cuts.  Not that this is gospel, some people do it in just one run, but it sounds like you did the equivalent of 1.75 runs by making cuts on a "stripping" run, but then mixing that middle run n with the equivalent of undistilled wash (if I understood the distilling and mixing back together of still charge #2 correctly).  It's an interesting process you did there!
                                    4.  Yeah it's a lot of work, but it seems you added a little bit more work than the "standard" strip, strip, spirit run, as the stripping runs are usually carefree with no cuts and little interaction required.  I understand you say you did it for practice, and that is a good idea for sure, you get practice, and drinkable spirit too.
                                    5.  Yeah, come on, how does it taste?  Sure it'll be a little fiery in it's raw white dog state, but how is it?
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: rabeb25
                                    Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 8:29 PM
                                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Rye Whiskey First Time Q's

                                    So today I ran some more stuff.

                                    I ran the other 6 gallons (with feints added) and then made cuts again(for practice). Dumped everything back in and ran it all a second time (including the hearts from this first run) I also added a gallon of water.
                                    The heads came in at about 80% and the hearts came in at about 68-53%, I believe. Stripped to to about 5% to add back into the next run. Ended up with about 1/2 gallon of 55% (after it was cut with water) all said and done. Distress aging half and the other half is just traditionally aged.
                                    Jug 1 will go in and out of the freezer for 5 weeks, along with once a week getting pure o2 via a stone for 30 seconds, it also has 1/3 of a medium toast spiral, and 1/3 of a charred spiral.
                                    Jug 2 will have half of a spiral.

                                    Man that was a lot of work to get 1/2 gallon of rye!! I may need to step up my volumes!
                                    Anything else I am missing?

                                    Thanks

                                  • rabeb25
                                    Well the only reason why I did it so complicated was to try to educate me on cuts. I will only do stripping runs, with a second final cut from here on out. But
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Mar 23, 2009
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                                      Well the only reason why I did it so complicated was to try to educate me on cuts. I will only do stripping runs, with a second final cut from here on out.
                                      But here is what I did if this makes sense..

                                      12 gallon batch (6 gallon still)

                                      Run 1: 6 gallons wash
                                      150ml forshots tossed
                                      Collected as if it was a spirit run
                                      Collected 10 glasses, labeled and alc% them
                                      Using sniff and taste made cuts (for training)
                                      Kept the hearts

                                      Run 2: 6 gallons wash
                                      Added Feints from run 1
                                      150ml forshots tossed
                                      Collected as if it was a spirit run
                                      Collected 14 glasses, labeled and alc% them
                                      Using sniff and taste made cuts (for training)

                                      Run 3: Real final Cut 1.5 gallons spirit with 1 gallon water (so boiler would not run dry)
                                      150ml Foreshots tossed
                                      Collected in 200ml lots
                                      Collected 12 ( I think at work trying to go off the top of my head)
                                      First heads came in at around 80%
                                      Hearts came in at about 68%-53%
                                      Tails came in at 52%-40%
                                      Collected down to 5%

                                      All said and done ended up with 1/2 gallon (diluted to 55%) of spirit

                                      Does That make better sense?

                                      From now on just going to do stripping runs and final cuts, but I wanted to get a chance to get used to making "the cut"


                                      Thanks.
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