Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Bokakob as pot still

Expand Messages
  • rye_junkie1
    ... As I said in the other post. For True pot still performance You want to cut back on the amount of reflux. Most Pot stills built as pot stills have a
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 28, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Andy" <fit_dude42@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Mason
      >
      > Thanks for the advice. I already have a small plate on the bottom of
      > the coils to make the condensate fall down the middle of the column
      > rather than the edges. My take-off catch plate doesn't extend into
      > the column by anywhere near as much as the design shows though, and
      > i know it affects the take-off rate but at 1l per hour at 90+% i'm
      > not too concerned. But that's on a reflux still, not a pot still.
      > What sort of take-off rate does a pot still achieve? Does everything
      > that goes up the column get collected? I'm assuming most of it does,
      > in which case i'll need to extend either the coil plate or catch
      > plate so they're directly under each other.
      >
      > At the moment (if i just remove the packing) most of the condensate
      > will fall straight back down the column, which i assume is no good?
      >
      > Thanks again,
      >
      > Andy

      As I said in the other post. For "True" pot still performance You
      want to cut back on the amount of reflux. Most Pot stills built as
      pot stills have a little reflux action going on but nothing near what
      your rig will have even with the packing out of it. I understand that
      you have a coil plate but the other problem is vapor condensating on
      the coil housing walls. You have said in the above post that the take
      off plate does not extend very far. So most of the condensed vapor on
      the walls of the housing will by pass that plate on go on into the
      column/packing. In a reflux column this helps but too much of this
      during a rum run and your going to loose valuable flavors. You have a
      couple of choices here.
      A: Step back and look at your design and try to incorporate a way of
      eliminating "accidental" reflux. You should control reflux with the
      valve. The link I gave you gives you the knowledge you need for this
      and the info you have given me tell me the upper still head has some
      issues that need to be resolved to make it both an efficient reflux
      still and pot column.
      B: Build a Pot Rig. However this is not necessary.
      As for take off rate. For a spirit run (from low wines) with the
      valve wide open for rum or whiskey what ever say around 1000 watts
      gives you. Adjust your heat to around that liter/hour.Beware though.
      When your just starting out with Rums and Whiskeys low and slow is
      the way to go.
      If I seem frustrated it is not pointed at you. I am having trouble
      finding the correct words today. My fault.

      Mason
    • Andy
      Mason, No problem, no frustration noticed. Many thanks for the response. You re quite right in that my still does not religiously follow the plans from Bokakob
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 2, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Mason,

        No problem, no frustration noticed.

        Many thanks for the response. You're quite right in that my still
        does not religiously follow the plans from Bokakob and that most of
        my condensate falls straight back down the column as reflux and only
        a small splash gets collected. However, that small splash can be up
        to 1l per hour at 90+%.

        In the original design, all the condensate falls into a 'pool' on
        the take-off plate and then overflows back down the column as
        reflux. Is it critical that there's a 'pool' of distillate at the
        take-off point?
        I'm assuming (please correct me if i'm wrong, i need to learn) that
        whatever vapour has emerged at the top of the packing (assuming
        appropriate heat input) is as pure as its going to get i.e. all the
        separating/stripping has taken place in the packing. If so then
        the 'pool' of distillate is not strictly necessary and is just a
        method of controlling the output, and my still should produce the
        same effect???

        I've gone past the 'this works, use it' stage and am into the 'this
        works - why?' stage.

        Th reason i ask about flow rate is because i get up to 1l per hour
        at 90+% on reflux - what would this go up to as a pot still? I'm
        assuming again that in the middle of the run you're collecting
        everything a fast as possible. Have i got this right?

        Many thanks again.

        Andy




        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1"
        <rye_junkie@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Andy" <fit_dude42@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Mason
        > >
        > > Thanks for the advice. I already have a small plate on the
        bottom of
        > > the coils to make the condensate fall down the middle of the
        column
        > > rather than the edges. My take-off catch plate doesn't extend
        into
        > > the column by anywhere near as much as the design shows though,
        and
        > > i know it affects the take-off rate but at 1l per hour at 90+%
        i'm
        > > not too concerned. But that's on a reflux still, not a pot still.
        > > What sort of take-off rate does a pot still achieve? Does
        everything
        > > that goes up the column get collected? I'm assuming most of it
        does,
        > > in which case i'll need to extend either the coil plate or catch
        > > plate so they're directly under each other.
        > >
        > > At the moment (if i just remove the packing) most of the
        condensate
        > > will fall straight back down the column, which i assume is no
        good?
        > >
        > > Thanks again,
        > >
        > > Andy
        >
        > As I said in the other post. For "True" pot still performance You
        > want to cut back on the amount of reflux. Most Pot stills built as
        > pot stills have a little reflux action going on but nothing near
        what
        > your rig will have even with the packing out of it. I understand
        that
        > you have a coil plate but the other problem is vapor condensating
        on
        > the coil housing walls. You have said in the above post that the
        take
        > off plate does not extend very far. So most of the condensed
        vapor on
        > the walls of the housing will by pass that plate on go on into the
        > column/packing. In a reflux column this helps but too much of this
        > during a rum run and your going to loose valuable flavors. You
        have a
        > couple of choices here.
        > A: Step back and look at your design and try to incorporate a way
        of
        > eliminating "accidental" reflux. You should control reflux with
        the
        > valve. The link I gave you gives you the knowledge you need for
        this
        > and the info you have given me tell me the upper still head has
        some
        > issues that need to be resolved to make it both an efficient reflux
        > still and pot column.
        > B: Build a Pot Rig. However this is not necessary.
        > As for take off rate. For a spirit run (from low wines) with the
        > valve wide open for rum or whiskey what ever say around 1000 watts
        > gives you. Adjust your heat to around that liter/hour.Beware
        though.
        > When your just starting out with Rums and Whiskeys low and slow is
        > the way to go.
        > If I seem frustrated it is not pointed at you. I am having trouble
        > finding the correct words today. My fault.
        >
        > Mason
        >
      • rye_junkie1
        ... In an LM set up I like the Idea of the Pool it puts you in control of the Reflux ratio. The way your rig is set up you have no way of knowing what the
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 4, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Andy" <fit_dude42@...> wrote:
          >
          > Mason,
          >
          > No problem, no frustration noticed.
          >
          > Many thanks for the response. You're quite right in that my still
          > does not religiously follow the plans from Bokakob and that most of
          > my condensate falls straight back down the column as reflux and only
          > a small splash gets collected. However, that small splash can be up
          > to 1l per hour at 90+%.
          >
          > In the original design, all the condensate falls into a 'pool' on
          > the take-off plate and then overflows back down the column as
          > reflux. Is it critical that there's a 'pool' of distillate at the
          > take-off point?
          > I'm assuming (please correct me if i'm wrong, i need to learn) that
          > whatever vapour has emerged at the top of the packing (assuming
          > appropriate heat input) is as pure as its going to get i.e. all the
          > separating/stripping has taken place in the packing. If so then
          > the 'pool' of distillate is not strictly necessary and is just a
          > method of controlling the output, and my still should produce the
          > same effect???
          >
          > I've gone past the 'this works, use it' stage and am into the 'this
          > works - why?' stage.
          >
          > Th reason i ask about flow rate is because i get up to 1l per hour
          > at 90+% on reflux - what would this go up to as a pot still? I'm
          > assuming again that in the middle of the run you're collecting
          > everything a fast as possible. Have i got this right?
          >
          > Many thanks again.
          >
          > Andy


          In an LM set up I like the Idea of the "Pool" it puts you in control of the Reflux ratio. The way your rig is set up you have no way of knowing what the "true" maximum output of the rig is for a given heat setting. Being able to determine the RR is very important especially if you plan on using the rig for whiskey. For neutral you want to collect 10%of the condensed vapor and return the other 90% to the packing. Doesnt sound like a issue with your rig. For a Rum or Whiskey however that ratio should be more like collect 50-60% and return the rest down the column(no packing) maybe even 70/30. You have no way of determining this because of the way the rig is made.
          You can always try it and see what you get. You may be very happy with it. Thats all that matters. The machinist in me does not allow for this kind of thought process. I have to know what is happening (to a degree I understand)and be able to control it.
          The reason your rig works as well as it does is because of the Built in reflux ratio. I believe you use 2.5" tube at near 3' in length. Thats going to get you a high level of purity if you run it right.
          How much power are you running to the boiler? From the looks of the pic you would be using Propane? Is your drinking product from a 90+% spirit run "neutral" in taste? I ask because at 1L/hour and what you have told us about your rig you would have to be pouring the BTU/watts to it to get that take off rate. That or things line up better than you may think.
          As for take off rate for a pot still. I use a pot still for pot stillin. 750-1000 watts would set the take off rate. Or when i used propane, about 1l/hour. For the spirit run I like to run it slow.

          Mason
        • Andy
          Mason, you re quite correct in that i can t get any more out of my rig because of the lack of the pool at the take-off point. I m actually taking off
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 6, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Mason, you're quite correct in that i can't get any more out of my rig because of the lack of the 'pool' at the take-off point. I'm actually taking off everything that falls onto the plate where the pool should be, it just happens to be at the right ratio. I think it's more luck than judgement, but it worked so i left it alone.

            I use a 1960's pressurised paraffin (kerosene) stove to heat things up. Based on the heat-up times on my one-time use of a 2.4kw electric hob (it took hours!), i reckon on full pressure this stove must be hitting at least 4kw but it's pretty controllable. When i had the 5L boiler the electric hob was fine (although a bit expensive to run in the U.K.) and it could be on full power (2.4kw) all through the run. When i changed to the 25L boiler, it just couldn't cope. After trying a couple of open-flame methods i settled on the paraffin stove which works great.

            Thank you for answering the question about how much to take off on a pot run. I'd wrongly assumed that nothing went back down the column i.e. everything that went up it got condensed and collected. I've definitely got to alter the design as i can't collect any more than i do at present. It'll be interesting to see what the real flow rate could be.

            The product is pretty good taste-wise. If i want to make 'vodka' i have to carbon filter a couple of times, but if i flavour it i just filter once and drink. After the excellent advice on here i was able to remove the only slight off-taste that came through, but even that wasn't bad when it was flavoured.

            From reading your response regarding the purity (column size), flow-rate, heat input etc, am i right in thinking i could possibly run this rig at a higher take-off rate if the 'pool' were there? At the column height i've got, is there any purity advantage in running a higher reflux ratio? Or does it level off after a certain point and i'm just not collecting enough?

            Many thanks for the response again

            Cheers,

            Andy.

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Andy" <fit_dude42@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Mason,
            > >
            > > No problem, no frustration noticed.
            > >
            > > Many thanks for the response. You're quite right in that my still
            > > does not religiously follow the plans from Bokakob and that most of
            > > my condensate falls straight back down the column as reflux and only
            > > a small splash gets collected. However, that small splash can be up
            > > to 1l per hour at 90+%.
            > >
            > > In the original design, all the condensate falls into a 'pool' on
            > > the take-off plate and then overflows back down the column as
            > > reflux. Is it critical that there's a 'pool' of distillate at the
            > > take-off point?
            > > I'm assuming (please correct me if i'm wrong, i need to learn) that
            > > whatever vapour has emerged at the top of the packing (assuming
            > > appropriate heat input) is as pure as its going to get i.e. all the
            > > separating/stripping has taken place in the packing. If so then
            > > the 'pool' of distillate is not strictly necessary and is just a
            > > method of controlling the output, and my still should produce the
            > > same effect???
            > >
            > > I've gone past the 'this works, use it' stage and am into the 'this
            > > works - why?' stage.
            > >
            > > Th reason i ask about flow rate is because i get up to 1l per hour
            > > at 90+% on reflux - what would this go up to as a pot still? I'm
            > > assuming again that in the middle of the run you're collecting
            > > everything a fast as possible. Have i got this right?
            > >
            > > Many thanks again.
            > >
            > > Andy
            >
            >
            > In an LM set up I like the Idea of the "Pool" it puts you in control of the Reflux ratio. The way your rig is set up you have no way of knowing what the "true" maximum output of the rig is for a given heat setting. Being able to determine the RR is very important especially if you plan on using the rig for whiskey. For neutral you want to collect 10%of the condensed vapor and return the other 90% to the packing. Doesnt sound like a issue with your rig. For a Rum or Whiskey however that ratio should be more like collect 50-60% and return the rest down the column(no packing) maybe even 70/30. You have no way of determining this because of the way the rig is made.
            > You can always try it and see what you get. You may be very happy with it. Thats all that matters. The machinist in me does not allow for this kind of thought process. I have to know what is happening (to a degree I understand)and be able to control it.
            > The reason your rig works as well as it does is because of the Built in reflux ratio. I believe you use 2.5" tube at near 3' in length. Thats going to get you a high level of purity if you run it right.
            > How much power are you running to the boiler? From the looks of the pic you would be using Propane? Is your drinking product from a 90+% spirit run "neutral" in taste? I ask because at 1L/hour and what you have told us about your rig you would have to be pouring the BTU/watts to it to get that take off rate. That or things line up better than you may think.
            > As for take off rate for a pot still. I use a pot still for pot stillin. 750-1000 watts would set the take off rate. Or when i used propane, about 1l/hour. For the spirit run I like to run it slow.
            >
            > Mason
            >
          • rye_junkie1
            ... Harry and Riku gave me some schooling on this back in January. With the info Harry gives here, you should be able to figure out what is optimal (reflux
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 6, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Andy" <fit_dude42@...> wrote:

              > From reading your response regarding the purity (column size), flow-rate, heat input etc, am i right in thinking i could possibly run this rig at a higher take-off rate if the 'pool' were there? At the column height i've got, is there any purity advantage in running a higher reflux ratio? Or does it level off after a certain point and i'm just not collecting enough?
              >
              > Many thanks for the response again
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Andy.


              Harry and Riku gave me some schooling on this back in January.
              With the info Harry gives here, you should be able to figure out
              what is optimal (reflux wise) for heat input on your rig.
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/44183

              I do know that in "The Compleat Distiller", they talk about doing a reflux run with a 2" diameter column at around 750watts and about 1-2 drops/second. So your talking about 500-600ml/hour for azetrope alcohol.

              Mason
            • abbababbaccc
              ... With accurate control of reflux ratio you can get 1 liter / hour using that power and 2 column. With some trick and treats you can up the power and get
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 6, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Andy" <fit_dude42@> wrote:
                >
                > > From reading your response regarding the purity (column size), flow-rate, heat input etc, am i right in thinking i could possibly run this rig at a higher take-off rate if the 'pool' were there? At the column height i've got, is there any purity advantage in running a higher reflux ratio? Or does it level off after a certain point and i'm just not collecting enough?
                > >
                > > Many thanks for the response again
                > >
                > > Cheers,
                > >
                > > Andy.
                >
                >
                > Harry and Riku gave me some schooling on this back in January.
                > With the info Harry gives here, you should be able to figure out
                > what is optimal (reflux wise) for heat input on your rig.
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/44183
                >
                > I do know that in "The Compleat Distiller", they talk about doing a reflux run with a 2" diameter column at around 750watts and about 1-2 drops/second. So your talking about 500-600ml/hour for azetrope alcohol.
                >
                > Mason
                >

                With accurate control of reflux ratio you can get 1 liter / hour using that power and 2" column. With some trick and treats you can up the power and get 1.6 liters/hour. The values given in TCD are a good baseline and once you master it you can start towards faster rate.

                Slainte, Riku
              • Andy
                This is what i want - maths that prove i m doing it wrong! ;-) Thanks for the link, i d not seen these calulations before. Really useful. According to the
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 7, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  This is what i want - maths that prove i'm doing it wrong! ;-)

                  Thanks for the link, i'd not seen these calulations before. Really useful.
                  According to the calc's, my column has a packing capacity of 137cu.in. which is o.k. At 2kw input the vapour speed is 18 inches/s which is within the advised limits.
                  What i now suspect is happening is that i'm overpowering the column, which is reducing the effectiveness of the packing. If i modify the take-off to get that 'pool' i'll probably find that the take-off rate is too high and i should need to reduce my heat input. This should make the packing more effective which should improve the product for less heat cost.

                  Fantastic!

                  Cheers,

                  Andy.


                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Andy" <fit_dude42@> wrote:
                  >
                  > > From reading your response regarding the purity (column size), flow-rate, heat input etc, am i right in thinking i could possibly run this rig at a higher take-off rate if the 'pool' were there? At the column height i've got, is there any purity advantage in running a higher reflux ratio? Or does it level off after a certain point and i'm just not collecting enough?
                  > >
                  > > Many thanks for the response again
                  > >
                  > > Cheers,
                  > >
                  > > Andy.
                  >
                  >
                  > Harry and Riku gave me some schooling on this back in January.
                  > With the info Harry gives here, you should be able to figure out
                  > what is optimal (reflux wise) for heat input on your rig.
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/44183
                  >
                  > I do know that in "The Compleat Distiller", they talk about doing a reflux run with a 2" diameter column at around 750watts and about 1-2 drops/second. So your talking about 500-600ml/hour for azetrope alcohol.
                  >
                  > Mason
                  >
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.