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Re: Modern Way - Fermenting Star Fruit

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  • jamesonbeam1
    LoL Bossy, These are not secrets - just stuff you will have to start learning. Anyways, comments follow in Bold. Vino es Veritas, Jim aka Waldo. ... Always add
    Message 1 of 89 , Feb 1, 2009

      LoL Bossy,

      These are not secrets - just stuff you will have to start learning.  Anyways, comments follow in Bold.

      Vino es Veritas,

      Jim aka Waldo.

      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "bravoseychelles" <bravoseychelles@...> wrote:
      > hello there
      > thanks for the recipe
      > taste good already.waldo
      > slowly slowly the secrets come out
      > so too sweet makes it bad in the distilled.
      > better add after distille.

      Always add additonal sugar for sweet product after your final spirits run.  Read below about maceration.

      > the smell of my 2 ferment is very different.
      > from what i see is that by adding the pulp to a must it sorts of make
      > the job harder for the yeast
      > just talking here....
      > but since ive removed the cap of pulp the 2nd ferments seems to say
      > thanks and i can move a bit now

      Because you put the fruit through a juice extractor, most of the flavors and smell are in your fermentation #1 even though it was diluted with too much with water.  The pulp fermentation will not have as much flavor or smell as the juice.  All thats keeing the pulp fermentation going is the sugar you added.

      > tell me about this oxygen theory in simple words please

      LoL Bossy what your asking for is an explaination of the yeast life cycle which could take pages.  In short, there are 3 main phases.  First is the Lag Phase during which the yeast adjusts to its new environment and starts taking in nutrients in order to start reproducing.  This usually lasts 3 to 4 hours or more.

      The second phase is the Exponential Growth Phase which can last from 24 hours to 36 hours or more depending on whether the yeast strain is fast or slow acting.  During this phase, yeast will grow and mutiply at a huge rate - from 1 million or so cells per ml.  to around 400 million cells per ml. in a good fermentation.  In both these phases, yeast requires oxygen to grow - thats why these are call "aerobic" stages.

      The third phase - the Stationary Phase - lasts anwhere from 3 to 6 days or more, again depending on the yeast strain.  This is the phase where the yeast converts the remaining sugars into CO2 (carbon dioxide gas) and alcohol.  During the first 2 phases, all the oxygen was used up and yeast enters an "anaerobic environment" (no oxygen).  While this is not a natural occurance, we humans help this along by covering the fermntation air tight and dont try and introduce more oxygen.

      In this way we can "train" the yeast to give us the alcohol we desire........  So to answer your question - its a good idea to vigorously stir the must during the first 6 hours to induce oxygen into it or use an aquarium air pump with air stone and let it bubble in the must during this time.

      > so for how many hours should the yeast be aeriated with oxygen so
      > that it can have sex
      > and when do we stop the sex and ask them to work and make our stuff
      > this way it looks better ..lol

      LoL Bossy, unfortunately yeast cant enjoy sex the way us humans can.  Yeast multiply by budding, where a cell grows a daughter cell which splits off and creates its own daugher cells.  The aeriation period is explained above - usually the first 6 hours will do.

      > is it advisable to add spices to the ferment ot better to the
      > distilled
      > eg fresh cinamon leaves or bark
      > or star anice
      > you know what i mean not the bootle type
      > the real tree thing

      Spices and flavors come across much better in a distillate if added after the final  distillation "spirits run".  Sometimes they can be added after the first distillation (the stripping or low wines run) and then re-distilled.  This method is called "maceration"  where you put your cinamon or anice in the distillate and let it soak for several days or weeks.  Depending on what your making, you can then either just filter the distillate and drink it or re-distill it a second time.  Some distillers even will make a 3rd distilling run in a pot still.  To keep the fruit flavors in a fruit wine to make a full flavored brandy I usually only distill one time.

      > also for the future
      > my father still alive used to make a fruit wine from
      > pawpaw mix with
      > passion fruit and
      > and mango
      > the wine was unbeilevable good
      > it was sweet champayne
      > now if i went through that whole process of making it
      > adding the sugars like he said he did
      > waiting 2 month for it
      > if im going to distill it is it worthwhile
      > or should i just aim for the fast stuff

      Again, if you want it sweet, then add the sugars after you distill it.  If you want to keep all the flavors, make it sweet and have more alcohol content, theres another trick you can use.  This is called fortification or fortifying the wine.  What you would do is make a sugar wash (no fruits) and use your reflux column to make a high ABV neutral spirit or distillate (like a vodka).  Then add this to your wine (the amount added depends on how leathal  you want to make it :))

      > what i mean is the tatse and smell of the long fermenting wine
      > is it tranfered into the distilled

      No, alot of flavors and all the smell will be lost along with the sweetness.   Your best bet in this situation is to use the fortification method...  Next when your ready, we will discuss aging your brandies on charred American Oak Chips ;););).

      Good luck again,


      > thanks for the info and will talk sooon
      > ile take some photos of the colllecting sites
      > bossy

    • jamesonbeam1
      Hi Baker, Yes, your correct. Boiling the potatos will kill off any microbes on there skin. Using just the waters containing nutrients and some sugars and
      Message 89 of 89 , Feb 4, 2009

        Hi Baker,

        Yes, your correct.  Boiling the potatos will kill off any microbes on there skin.  Using just the waters containing nutrients and some sugars and starches open to the air will cause airborne wild yeasts to infect it. 
        More comments below in Bold:

        > Okay, Jim, I think I see where you are coming from; by
        > pasteurization/ stirilisation you are ensuring you get only AIR-BORNE
        > wild/natural yeasts, not the yeasts that might be carried on/in the
        > FRUITS, or in this case the potatoes?
        > But it seems to me (and this is not based on knowledge, it just seems
        > to make sense) that the case of a natural yeast for fermenting a
        > fruit wine is very different to yeast for bread.

        Not really Baker, both bread yeast and wine yeasts are mainly from the genus Saccharomyces  and species  cerevisiae  within the species Saccharomyces cerevisiae (check it out in Wikipedia), there are over 1500 strains of this yeast that have been cultured for making bread yeast, wine yeast, whiskey yeast, ale yeasts etc., etc..  These strains were originally cultivated from wild yeasts that have been found on the skins of fruit (or grains) which have formed a symbiotic relationship with the fruit or grain.  The other main species of yeast for making wines (mainly champagnes) is  Saccharomyces bayanus  a more alcohol tolerant species of yeast.   One can make bread from a strain of wine yeast and make wine from a bread yeast.

        > The process of boiling the potatoes could have little importance in
        > its sterilization effect; a yeast from the potato skin might be as
        > effective as an airborne yeast. 

        Again this depends on how good or bad that wild yeast strain could be..

        > The boiling of the potatoes could be important mainly because it
        > gelatinises the starch in the potatoes (and thus any residual starch
        > in the potato water?)

        Correct again Baker:     "Common media used for the cultivation of yeasts include; potato dextrose agar (PDA) or potato dextrose broth,"

        > This would make it somewhat similar to bread flour; and if I am right
        > about a little bread flour being mixed in the potato water that would
        > increase that effect.
        > It is of course possible to include potato flour, or mashed potato,
        > (in other words, gelatinised potato) in breads and that might add
        > credence to my thoughts here.

        Corrct again.

        > There are a lot of wineries not too far from where I live and I know
        > it has been the practice years ago, and perhaps even yet to a very
        > much lesser extent, to ferment the grapes in open concrete tanks; and
        > often by the use of the natural yeasts from the bloom on the skins of
        > the grapes.

        Yes, due to the symbiotic relationship, the wild yeasts on the skin of each varietal grape was used to start the fermentation.  Eventually, these were cultivated into various red and white wine,  grape specific strains.

        > It would seem that a yeast that has evolved on or in a fruit, and
        > thus is adapted specifically to ferment that fruit in the conditions
        > in which it is found (climate, etc.,) would be more likely to ferment
        > it well than an air-borne yeast; in the same way as has been found in
        > the case of the grape wines (ignoring commercial yeasts, which anyway
        > have been cultured from natural yeasts originally).

        Correct again - see above.

        > Just kicking the ideas around, it's interesting.
        > Bacteria I haven't thought much about, I guess if you sterilize the
        > fruits that cuts out a lot of possible bacterial infections, leaving
        > only the air-borne ones...

        Yes - the worst ones being vinegar producing bacteria - acetic acid bacteria.

        Vino es Veritas,

        Jim aka Waldo.

        > Regards,
        > The Baker

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