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Conversion type question

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  • John
    OK, maybe a stupid question, but here goes anyway. I made a wash or mash or must today, whichever you want to call it. In it are about 70 pounds of apples
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 3, 2009
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      OK, maybe a stupid question, but here goes anyway. I made a wash or
      mash or must today, whichever you want to call it. In it are about 70
      pounds of apples (mashed thoroughly), 30 pounds of sugar, quart of
      blackstrap molasses (all natural), and probably 18-20 gallons of
      water. Well not actually water, I used about 12-14 gallons of water
      and 6 gallons of left over "dander" I guess you call it from my last
      batch. This arrived at about 32-35 gallons of total wash. Anyway,
      question is, I just checked the wash with my hydrometer. It has a SG
      of around 1.050. Meaning I am only going to arrive at about 7% of so
      alcohol. Surely I am doing something wrong here. I know temp has
      some bearing on measurements and the wash is still fairly warm.
      Should I wait and take another reading tomorrow or should I go ahead
      and plan on getting some more sugar in the wash? Or is it possible
      the sugar content in the mashed apples is not taken into account in
      the reading? Thanks in advance!!
    • Trid
      ... Nope, you re about on the money with the hydrometer reading. In this hobby, sugar is sugar, whether it s cane, fruit, or what have you. All told, you have
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 4, 2009
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        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John" <cls315@...> wrote:
        >
        > OK, maybe a stupid question, but here goes anyway. I made a wash or
        > mash or must today, whichever you want to call it. In it are about 70
        > pounds of apples (mashed thoroughly), 30 pounds of sugar, quart of
        > blackstrap molasses (all natural), and probably 18-20 gallons of
        > water. Well not actually water, I used about 12-14 gallons of water
        > and 6 gallons of left over "dander" I guess you call it from my last
        > batch. This arrived at about 32-35 gallons of total wash. Anyway,
        > question is, I just checked the wash with my hydrometer. It has a SG
        > of around 1.050. Meaning I am only going to arrive at about 7% of so
        > alcohol. Surely I am doing something wrong here. I know temp has
        > some bearing on measurements and the wash is still fairly warm.
        > Should I wait and take another reading tomorrow or should I go ahead
        > and plan on getting some more sugar in the wash? Or is it possible
        > the sugar content in the mashed apples is not taken into account in
        > the reading? Thanks in advance!!

        Nope, you're about on the money with the hydrometer reading. In this
        hobby, sugar is sugar, whether it's cane, fruit, or what have you.
        All told, you have about 1 1/2 pounds of sugar per gallon of liquid.
        In the total volume you have, one quart of molasses isn't going to add
        a noticeable amount. By doing the math, it looks as if your apples
        add another 10ish gallons to the total volume. Apples aren't really
        that high in sugar if you're talking pulp and all. 1.050 sounds like
        a perfectly reasonable gravity reading.

        Also, for the sake of terminology, "mash" refers to step (and
        ingredients) where the starches from grain is being converted to
        fermentable sugars. After mashing, typically, we'll use "wort" if it's
        going to be used for beer and "wash" if its ultimate destination is
        the still. "Must" would be exclusively from fruit. The catch-all for
        all the rest would also fall into "wash."

        Finally, just my own $.02: Why waste the apples in a sugar/molasses
        wash? Why not make cider or at least a wash for making a nice apple
        brandy with the apples and use the sugar and molasses for either rum
        or a neutral spirit. This is just me talking, but I can't see wasting
        the flavor of the apples on neutral spirit...unless I totally botched
        the apple spirit.

        Irrespective of my own opinion, my input is that your numbers do come
        out to a reasonable value. Stick with what you have instead of adding
        more sugar to boost the %abv in your wash. You'll be done fermenting
        sooner and off to making your hooch in short order if you don't try to
        max out. Less opportunity for the yeasties to get stressed and make
        funky flavors or get stuck, too.

        Happy stillin'
        Trid
      • castillo.alex2008
        Hey Parrot The gravity is ok, but I´d be much more concern about the nutrients, seems to be ok in the minerals side (b/c of the molasses) but will ferment
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 4, 2009
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          Hey Parrot

          The gravity is ok, but I´d be much more concern about the nutrients,
          seems to be ok in the minerals side (b/c of the molasses) but will
          ferment faster if adding some source of nitrogen, to which I suggest
          you to add about 2 cups of DAP or any other complete yeast nutrient you
          may have handy. Also is important the amount of yeast used, some 100
          grams of distiller´s or baker´s will be ok. Finally, since you are
          only after the apple´s flavor you may consider adding some pectinase to
          your wash, a few of those brewhaus sachets containing the 3 enzymes
          will go fine and you´ll receive them about on time, if you began
          yesterday and live in US.

          Alex

          P.D. try next time to go after a calvados, wouldn´t be a waste of
          fruit as now IMHO
        • John Chad Kinsey Sr.
          Well, I have not pitched the yeast yet and I do have yeast nutrients I plan on using. I was hoping for a little higher potential alcohol. Is there a scale
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 4, 2009
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            Well, I have not pitched the yeast yet and I do have yeast nutrients I plan on using.  I was hoping for a little higher potential alcohol.  Is there a scale somewhere or a formula to arrive at sugar percentage?  The molasses was added for the minerals only, not for sugar or flavor.  I also have added pectinase already.  I am thinking very seriously of adding some more sugar.  I wanted to arrive at about a 14% to 15% ABV.  And yes I have champagne yeast which will handle it, six packets of it in fact, along with a pound of yeast nutrients.  Thanks!

             

            No trees were harmed to send this message however an awful lot of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

             

             

            From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of castillo.alex2008
            Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:15 AM
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Conversion type question

             


            Hey Parrot

            The gravity is ok, but I´d be much more concern about the nutrients,
            seems to be ok in the minerals side (b/c of the molasses) but will
            ferment faster if adding some source of nitrogen, to which I suggest
            you to add about 2 cups of DAP or any other complete yeast nutrient you
            may have handy. Also is important the amount of yeast used, some 100
            grams of distiller´s or baker´s will be ok. Finally, since you are
            only after the apple´s flavor you may consider adding some pectinase to
            your wash, a few of those brewhaus sachets containing the 3 enzymes
            will go fine and you´ll receive them about on time, if you began
            yesterday and live in US.

            Alex

            P.D. try next time to go after a calvados, wouldn´t be a waste of
            fruit as now IMHO

             


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          • No Name
            Hey john,  I am no expert or nothing, But I think that you have a good Sg,, Most of the time we Or Atleast I shoot for around an 8-9% wash,   This will
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 4, 2009
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              Hey john,
               I am no expert or nothing, But I think that you have a good Sg,, Most of the time we Or Atleast I shoot for around an 8-9% wash,   This will ensure that the flavors your after will be there,   Unless your just using those apples for sugars,  And you really wanted a neutral spirit., But then if that's is the case it would have been way easier to use all sugar,..
               As for your question,  Well I don't have that answer.( Fairly new myself)   But I have used all Apples before, Along with all Grapes,plums,peaches, and so on, And always ended up with a decent batch, Usually never getting a really High Sg,  Or potental.
                 hth 
              Noname


              From: John <cls315@...>
              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, January 3, 2009 11:46:34 PM
              Subject: [new_distillers] Conversion type question

              OK, maybe a stupid question, but here goes anyway. I made a wash or
              mash or must today, whichever you want to call it. In it are about 70
              pounds of apples (mashed thoroughly), 30 pounds of sugar, quart of
              blackstrap molasses (all natural), and probably 18-20 gallons of
              water. Well not actually water, I used about 12-14 gallons of water
              and 6 gallons of left over "dander" I guess you call it from my last
              batch. This arrived at about 32-35 gallons of total wash. Anyway,
              question is, I just checked the wash with my hydrometer. It has a SG
              of around 1.050. Meaning I am only going to arrive at about 7% of so
              alcohol. Surely I am doing something wrong here. I know temp has
              some bearing on measurements and the wash is still fairly warm.
              Should I wait and take another reading tomorrow or should I go ahead
              and plan on getting some more sugar in the wash? Or is it possible
              the sugar content in the mashed apples is not taken into account in
              the reading? Thanks in advance!!


            • gooseeye
              ... nutrients I plan ... there a ... molasses ... have added ... more sugar. ... champagne ... pound of ... hier in likker you go the more it gonna want to
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 4, 2009
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                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John Chad Kinsey Sr."
                <cls315@...> wrote:
                >
                > Well, I have not pitched the yeast yet and I do have yeast
                nutrients I plan
                > on using. I was hoping for a little higher potential alcohol. Is
                there a
                > scale somewhere or a formula to arrive at sugar percentage? The
                molasses
                > was added for the minerals only, not for sugar or flavor. I also
                have added
                > pectinase already. I am thinking very seriously of adding some
                more sugar.
                > I wanted to arrive at about a 14% to 15% ABV. And yes I have
                champagne
                > yeast which will handle it, six packets of it in fact, along with a
                pound of
                > yeast nutrients. Thanks!

                hier in likker you go the more it gonna want to warsh out the apple
                sent an flaver an hotter it gonna get. thats in the middlein to hi
                teens even cookin slow. if you invert your suger you can hold that
                apple longer but only so much.you can get apple flaverin with
                gylcerin to help take down that likker with but a ole likker dick
                aint gonna be fooled an it hard to get a good name back.


                so im tole
                >
                >
                >
                > No trees were harmed to send this message however an awful lot of
                electrons
                > were terribly inconvenienced.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com]
                > On Behalf Of castillo.alex2008
                > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:15 AM
                > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Conversion type question
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Hey Parrot
                >
                > The gravity is ok, but I´d be much more concern about the
                nutrients,
                > seems to be ok in the minerals side (b/c of the molasses) but will
                > ferment faster if adding some source of nitrogen, to which I
                suggest
                > you to add about 2 cups of DAP or any other complete yeast nutrient
                you
                > may have handy. Also is important the amount of yeast used, some
                100
                > grams of distiller´s or baker´s will be ok. Finally, since you are
                > only after the apple´s flavor you may consider adding some
                pectinase to
                > your wash, a few of those brewhaus sachets containing the 3 enzymes
                > will go fine and you´ll receive them about on time, if you began
                > yesterday and live in US.
                >
                > Alex
                >
                > P.D. try next time to go after a calvados, wouldn´t be a waste of
                > fruit as now IMHO
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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                >
                >
                > _____
                >
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                >
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                > Tested on: 1/4/2009 9:37:07 AM
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              • No Name
                Hey john,  Sorry its me again, I just replied to your first post, But I didn t notice that all the Greats had already done so.  However I just saw your reply
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 4, 2009
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                  Hey john,
                   Sorry its me again, I just replied to your first post, But I didn't notice that all the Greats had already done so.
                   However I just saw your reply about adding more sugar,  And the yeast your going to use,
                   For 30 Gallons  7 packets are low, Unless those are some big packets,LOL Most of the ones I have ever seen have come in 5 or 7 Gram sizes,  I know there are larger ones, but even still, this is way off what you need to pitch, 
                    30 gallons of wash would need 600 Grams of yeast,   I get a way with using a pound. 454 Grams,  
                  I used to use a 12 packs of yeast per 30 gallons, And would wait 3 weeks, as if it was a beer to ferment, By then Usually my wash had caught some type of sickness,LOL   (NO GOOD).  Anyways Just trying to save you from the same troubles that I had, (Untill I joined up in here, and got the best advice one could get), On top of that reading pervious post to others, One comes to mind Check out Message #32369. this one wasn't to far back I noticed it while looking through the messages,    It had a pretty large recipe, ANd the guy was useing packets of yeast, And the Owner of this room stepped in to help,  (pretty sure it was the owner of the Group whom help if not please forgive me, But its still good advice,)
                   I used this advice myself just before new years and My trash can full fermented in 3 days and not 3 weeks With no side affects or sickness.
                  Anyways I hope this helps you change your mind about adding sugar, And also hope this helps you decide to grab a lot more yeast.
                  Thanks for your time, NoName
                  ps. I liked that saying, No trees were harmed........


                  From: John Chad Kinsey Sr. <cls315@...>
                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2009 9:37:41 AM
                  Subject: RE: [new_distillers] Re: Conversion type question

                  Well, I have not pitched the yeast yet and I do have yeast nutrients I plan on using.  I was hoping for a little higher potential alcohol.  Is there a scale somewhere or a formula to arrive at sugar percentage?  The molasses was added for the minerals only, not for sugar or flavor.  I also have added pectinase already.  I am thinking very seriously of adding some more sugar.  I wanted to arrive at about a 14% to 15% ABV.  And yes I have champagne yeast which will handle it, six packets of it in fact, along with a pound of yeast nutrients.  Thanks!

                   

                  No trees were harmed to send this message however an awful lot of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

                   

                   

                  From: new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:new_ distillers@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of castillo.alex2008
                  Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:15 AM
                  To: new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com
                  Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Conversion type question

                   


                  Hey Parrot

                  The gravity is ok, but I´d be much more concern about the nutrients,
                  seems to be ok in the minerals side (b/c of the molasses) but will
                  ferment faster if adding some source of nitrogen, to which I suggest
                  you to add about 2 cups of DAP or any other complete yeast nutrient you
                  may have handy. Also is important the amount of yeast used, some 100
                  grams of distiller´s or baker´s will be ok. Finally, since you are
                  only after the apple´s flavor you may consider adding some pectinase to
                  your wash, a few of those brewhaus sachets containing the 3 enzymes
                  will go fine and you´ll receive them about on time, if you began
                  yesterday and live in US.

                  Alex

                  P.D. try next time to go after a calvados, wouldn´t be a waste of
                  fruit as now IMHO

                   


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                  Virus Database (VPS): 090103-1, 01/03/2009
                  Tested on: 1/4/2009 9:21:20 AM
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                • jamesonbeam1
                  John, A few details here might answer some of your questions. First off, as Trid said, appples do not have much sugars. Apples have about 10% by volume/weight
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 4, 2009
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                    John,

                    A few details here might answer some of your questions. First off, as Trid said, appples do not have much sugars.  Apples have about 10% by volume/weight in sugars - of which 2% is sucrose, 2.5% dextrose (glucose) and 5.5% fructose - though this might vary somewhat by different brand varieties.  Also as he stated that the little bit of molassas dont mean jack squat for the volume your making.

                    So the 70 lbs of apples used, contained about 7 lbs. of sugars - along with the 30 lbs. added - thats about 37 lbs. for a 32-35 gallon wash.  Again,  as he said since the majority of ingredients used is fruit, it is called a "must" not a wash or mash.

                    1/2 lb. of sugar per gallon of fermented liquid will  produce about 3.5% ABV.  Your 37 lbs. works out to a bit more then 1 lb. per gallon - say about 1 lb. 2oz. - which equates to an SG of about 1.050 and a potential ABV of around 7%.

                    The charts you asked about are available in the Info Base.  For the Hydrometer readings - go to: http://www.brsquared.org/wine/CalcInfo/HydSugAl.htm  - Hydrometer/Sugar/Alcohol Tables and you will see these figures.  To Calculate the amount of sugars with water needed to obtain a certain level of ABV in your wash / must - go check out Tony's Site at http://homedistiller.org/ and look at his self-calculation on Preparing a Sugar Wash and  sugar levels at: http://homedistiller.org/wash-sugar.htm

                    Since you have such a low ABV potential in your must, it would not hurt to add some more suger (inverted of course) to bring the ABV potential up to around 12-13% which is what most wines, apple/grape/fruits are at to distill into brandy.  But as Gooseeyes and Nameless have stated - dont go too high or you will stress you yeast out and loose those apple flavors.  Even with your champagne yeast I would not go about about 12% for starters.  Check out the charts and that will give you an idea of how much more sugars to add.

                    Also dont forget to add some nutrients to your must since apples dont have much nutrients in them either.  Your 6 packs of yeast should about do it, since each 5 gram pack is good for about 5 gallons - but I would consider making about a gallon or 2 starter first with the yeast from some of your must and get it going good for a day or so and then pitch it.

                    Hope this helps.

                    Vino es Veritas,

                    Jim aka Waldo.

                     


                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John Chad Kinsey Sr." <cls315@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Well, I have not pitched the yeast yet and I do have yeast nutrients I plan
                    > on using. I was hoping for a little higher potential alcohol. Is there a
                    > scale somewhere or a formula to arrive at sugar percentage? The molasses
                    > was added for the minerals only, not for sugar or flavor. I also have added
                    > pectinase already. I am thinking very seriously of adding some more sugar.
                    > I wanted to arrive at about a 14% to 15% ABV. And yes I have champagne
                    > yeast which will handle it, six packets of it in fact, along with a pound of
                    > yeast nutrients. Thanks!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > No trees were harmed to send this message however an awful lot of electrons
                    > were terribly inconvenienced.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com]
                    > On Behalf Of castillo.alex2008
                    > Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 9:15 AM
                    > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Conversion type question
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hey Parrot
                    >
                    > The gravity is ok, but I´d be much more concern about the nutrients,
                    > seems to be ok in the minerals side (b/c of the molasses) but will
                    > ferment faster if adding some source of nitrogen, to which I suggest
                    > you to add about 2 cups of DAP or any other complete yeast nutrient you
                    > may have handy. Also is important the amount of yeast used, some 100
                    > grams of distiller´s or baker´s will be ok. Finally, since you are
                    > only after the apple´s flavor you may consider adding some pectinase to
                    > your wash, a few of those brewhaus sachets containing the 3 enzymes
                    > will go fine and you´ll receive them about on time, if you began
                    > yesterday and live in US.
                    >
                    > Alex
                    >
                    > P.D. try next time to go after a calvados, wouldn´t be a waste of
                    > fruit as now IMHO

                  • Harry
                    ... I plan ... there a ... There is. See my chart here... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/message/27020 Slainte! regards Harry
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 4, 2009
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                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John Chad Kinsey Sr."
                      <cls315@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Well, I have not pitched the yeast yet and I do have yeast nutrients
                      I plan
                      > on using. I was hoping for a little higher potential alcohol. Is
                      there a
                      > scale somewhere or a formula to arrive at sugar percentage?


                      There is. See my chart here...
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/message/27020


                      Slainte!
                      regards Harry
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