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Re: Fermentation of starch

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  • Harry
    ... results ... They are a series of experimental and/or genetically modified yeast strains that can use starch to make ethanol directly. They have limited
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Macrobert"
      <macrobert@...> wrote:
      >
      > If you can understand the results, Google is your friend..[IMAGE]
      >
      > http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/71/10/6443
      >
      > http://www.springerlink.com/content/m4k50l3820752693/
      >
      > Hopefully, the more knowledgeable ones here can translate these
      results
      > into practical answers..
      >
      > ATB


      They are a series of experimental and/or genetically modified yeast
      strains that can use starch to make ethanol directly. They have
      limited enzymatic conversion capabilities.

      As yet they are far from useful, conversion rates are poor compared
      to standard mash & ferment procedures. In addition to that, they are
      very much a proprietary and patented bio-engineered yeast, not
      available commercially.

      Rocket fuel, anyone?

      Slainte!
      regards Harry
    • jamesonbeam1
      Dude: First off, I have no idea why you would post these links in the New_Distillers site... If you want to start a discussion on advanced topics of
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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        Dude:

        First off, I have no idea why you would post these links in the New_Distillers site...  If you want to start a discussion on advanced topics of Production of Ethanol from Starch by Respiration-Deficient Recombinant Saccharomyces cerevisiae  and how mutated versions of bakers yeast (which exist in an anaerobic enviroment where they produce ethanol) and can produce more ethanol (with additions of AG and other starch converting enzymes),  then the regular store bought brand,  I would go to the fuel alcohol site - not here.... 

        Your second link also has little to do with making human consumable ethanol, since your again talking about a strain of yeast (Saccharomycopsis fibuligera)  that is used for sientific research.  

        I dont think too many members here understand the phrase "respiration-deficient reccombiant Saccharomycese cerevisiae" but thank you for the info and try taking it to our friends at Alcohol Fuel: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/alcoholfuel/  since these discussions have very little to do with making some nice smooth drinkin'  hootch ;).

        Vino es Veritas,

        Jim aka Waldo.


        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Macrobert" <macrobert@...> wrote:
        >
        > If you can understand the results, Google is your friend..[IMAGE]
        >
        > http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/71/10/6443
        >
        > http://www.springerlink.com/content/m4k50l3820752693/
        >
        > Hopefully, the more knowledgeable ones here can translate these results
        > into practical answers..
        >
        > ATB
        >
        > Robbie Mac
        > Sometime tinkerer and sometimes it even works....
        >
        > --
        > Be Yourself @ mail.com!
        > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
        > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com
        >

      • Rob Macrobert
        Jim, Responses inline.... Dude: First off, I have no idea why you would post these links in the New_Distillers site... --In response to a member s post about
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 2, 2009
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          Jim,
          Responses inline....



          Dude:

          First off, I have no idea why you would post these links in the New_Distillers site...

          --In response to a member's post about fermenting using corn starch, just trying to show that info is out there--

          Your second link also has little to do with making human consumable ethanol, since your again talking about a strain of yeast (Saccharomycopsis fibuligera) that is used for sientific research.

          -- My apologies on that, as I was not aware of it--

          I dont think too many members here understand the phrase "respiration-deficient reccombiant Saccharomycese cerevisiae" but thank you for the info and try taking it to our friends at Alcohol Fuel: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/alcoholfuel/ since these discussions have very little to do with making some nice smooth drinkin' hootch .

          -- Which is why I said "If you can understand the results.." and "..Hopefully, the more knowledgeable ones here can translate these results into practical answers.."--

          ---Snip--

          Like others here, I've been wondering about this myself, but in my case it came down to thinking that since the starches in the corn are what we want to convert, using corn starch with AG for the conversion would be a little less work than using cracked corn. Practical? Didn't know, but based on Harry's response (THANK YOU HARRY!!) I'd have to say no.

          My apologies on not saying originally what the post was about,  and no problem on finding the info, I was just trying to give back alittle of the help I've gotten here.

          Cheers,

          Robbie Mac
          Sometime tinkerer and sometimes it even works....

          --
          Be Yourself @ mail.com!
          Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
          Get a Free Account at www.mail.com!
        • jamesonbeam1
          Hey Rob, Sorry if I was a bit abrupt in my reply without explaining futher - still getting over some New Year s Partying [;)] . Didn t mean to cause any heart
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 3, 2009
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            Hey Rob,

            Sorry if I was a bit abrupt in my reply without explaining futher - still getting over some New Year's Partying;).  Didn't mean to cause any heart burn, but still think these links concerning mutated yeasts strains trying to  produce enzymes could be better discussed in the Alcohol Fuel group or Advanced Distillers.

            Being a simple "traditional" type distiller, i dont think that corn starch is what we are trying to convert into a nice drinking whiskey or yeast assumable sugars.  My concept of using corn or corn meal or corn flakes is not for extracting dextrose (glucose), sucrose or fructose in a mash - but getting that nice corn flavor out along with the malt tones that come with using malted barley or LME/DME.

            Corn starch is nothing but starch from the heart of the corn  - from the endosperm, or white heart, of the corn kernel.  This is basically flavorless and is one of the reasons it it used as a thickening agent in cooking:

            "Cornstarch is often used as a binder in puddings and similar foods. Most of the packaged pudding mixes available in grocery stores include cornstarch. Cornstarch puddings can be made at home easily by using a double boiler. The most basic such pudding is made from milk, sugar, cornstarch and a flavoring agent.

            Cornstarch can be used as a thickener in many recipes. Because cornstarch tends to form lumps when mixed with warm or hot water, it is best dissolved in cold water. It is also found in many gluten-free recipes."

            If all one was trying to do is use enzymes (from experimental yeast strains or malt) to convert corn starch to simple sugars and wasting time mashing it - try using dextrose or inverting sucrose and make a simple sugar wash. 

            Thinks I'll just stick with my corn meal, cracked corn or flaked maize.  Again my appologies.

            Vino es Veritas,

            Jim aka Waldo.

             

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Macrobert" <macrobert@...> wrote:
            >
            > Jim,
            > Responses inline....
            >
            >
            >
            > Dude:
            >
            > First off, I have no idea why you would post these links in the
            > New_Distillers site...
            >
            > --In response to a member's post about fermenting using corn starch, just
            > trying to show that info is out there--
            >
            > Your second link also has little to do with making human consumable
            > ethanol, since your again talking about a strain of yeast
            > (Saccharomycopsis fibuligera) that is used for sientific research.
            >
            > -- My apologies on that, as I was not aware of it--
            >
            > I dont think too many members here understand the phrase
            > "respiration-deficient reccombiant Saccharomycese cerevisiae" but thank
            > you for the info and try taking it to our friends at Alcohol Fuel:
            > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/alcoholfuel/ since these discussions
            > have very little to do with making some nice smooth drinkin' hootch .
            >
            > -- Which is why I said "If you can understand the results.." and
            > "..Hopefully, the more knowledgeable ones here can translate these
            > results into practical answers.."--
            >
            > ---Snip--
            >
            > Like others here, I've been wondering about this myself, but in my case
            > it came down to thinking that since the starches in the corn are what we
            > want to convert, using corn starch with AG for the conversion would be a
            > little less work than using cracked corn. Practical? Didn't know, but
            > based on Harry's response (THANK YOU HARRY!!) I'd have to say no.
            >
            > My apologies on not saying originally what the post was about, and no
            > problem on finding the info, I was just trying to give back alittle of
            > the help I've gotten here.
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            > Robbie Mac
            > Sometime tinkerer and sometimes it even works....
            >
            > --
            > Be Yourself @ mail.com!
            > Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
            > Get a Free Account at www.mail.com
            >

          • castillo.alex2008
            Feliz año nuevo a todos! (happy new year everyone) Hey Jim as you stated: My concept of using corn or corn meal or corn flakes is not for extracting dextrose
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 3, 2009
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              Feliz año nuevo a todos!
              (happy new year everyone)

              Hey Jim as you stated:

              "My concept of using corn or corn meal or corn flakes is not for
              extracting dextrose (glucose), sucrose or fructose in a mash - but
              getting that nice corn flavor out along with the malt tones that come
              with using malted barley or LME/DME."

              Comes to me the idea of doing a UJSSM with white sugar (not dextrose)
              and adding some DME, but first I´d like to know: does the traditional
              UJSSM flavor (cracked corn + sugar and a neutral yeast, i.e.
              distiller´s or EC-1118) really resembles a real whisky (or bourbon)
              flavor? does it worth?

              Alex
            • castillo.alex2008
              Sidenote: UJ does not mention the addition of nutrients in this kind of wash; are the nutrients contained in the corn enough to support the yeast or will it be
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 3, 2009
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                Sidenote:

                UJ does not mention the addition of nutrients in this kind of wash; are
                the nutrients contained in the corn enough to support the yeast or will
                it be advisable to add some, or maybe the addition of it leads to off
                flavors?

                Alex
              • jamesonbeam1
                Hi Alex and a Very Happy New Years to you also, Your questions bring up some interesting points. I really cannot consider my concoctions as true whiskey or
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 3, 2009
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                  Hi Alex and a Very Happy New Years to you also,

                  Your questions bring up some interesting points.  I really cannot consider my concoctions as true whiskey or even "real" Bourbon (Thou shall not use that name in Vain :):) being America's National alcoholic beverage by an act of Congress (congress = opposite of progress).

                  The commercial Bourbon makers here are governed by strict laws which state that no additives other then grains and yeast may be used, then mashed with no sugar added - 55% of which must be corn, with the rest being barley malts, rye or wheat depending on the distiller.  After distillation, nothing may be done to it either, exept put in new 55 gallon American Oak charred kegs and aged for a minimum of 2 years (Tennessee Whisk(e)y may be put thru the Lincoln County process though).  The same holds true - no added sugars - for Irish and Scotch makers in the old Country.

                  Since us Nano-distillers may bend, be above, below or side step laws (otherwise I wouldn't be posting here), many including myself do not abide by the no sugars added law.  The reason Dave - Uncle Jesse calls his a "Simple Sour Mash" method is because there is no cooking or mashing required since sugar is added.

                  Now i have done some mashing with diastatic malts in my corn whiskeys, but for the small amount of sugars converted in a mash (about 7-8%), this does not give a very good yield for us small scale distillers.  Now at the risk of being labelled a heritic by the purist all grain distillers around here, I basically now just use grains and malt (usually from LME)  for flavors and dont go through the mashing process.  Instead, i use inverted sugar to bring the mash ABV up to about a 12 - 14% with little loss of the corn/malt flavors in my pot still.  Nor do I worry too much about aging my "white dawg".  As the song goes - the good ol' boys around here still drink their whiskey white ;);).   As Gooseeye also stated in one of his inimitable postings:

                  "if you blendin for taste after strong backin taste save
                  when clears an take likker down with that adds a wee little bit it
                  stretchs volume an flaver. ole boys i no aint much on corns but if
                  they chargein it you can bet they got a sack of suger in it."
                  Translation: take some feints and add back to stretch the volume and flavors - the ol' boys dont add much corn but increase the ABV by adding sugars.

                  Also, yes i do add nutrients in addition to following the UJSSM method such as DAP or Miracle-Gro along with some boiled trub.  While malt and corn do have some nutrients, it still does not hurt to add some more nitrogen and nutrients for a nice fast ferment.

                  But to answer your final question - yes my white dawg likker passes very well (and following Dave's UJSSM) amoung the good 0l' boys down here and if aged for a while, it would make a nice tasting Bourbon.....

                  Vino es Veritas,

                  Jim aka Waldo.

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Sidenote:
                  >
                  > UJ does not mention the addition of nutrients in this kind of wash; are
                  > the nutrients contained in the corn enough to support the yeast or will
                  > it be advisable to add some, or maybe the addition of it leads to off
                  > flavors?
                  >
                  > Alex

                  Re: Fermentation of starch, Hey Jim!

                  Feliz año nuevo a todos!
                  (happy new year everyone)

                  Hey Jim as you stated:

                  "My concept of using corn or corn meal or corn flakes is not for
                  extracting dextrose (glucose), sucrose or fructose in a mash - but
                  getting that nice corn flavor out along with the malt tones that come
                  with using malted barley or LME/DME."

                  Comes to me the idea of doing a UJSSM with white sugar (not dextrose)
                  and adding some DME, but first I´d like to know: does the traditional
                  UJSSM flavor (cracked corn + sugar and a neutral yeast, i.e.
                  distiller´s or EC-1118) really resembles a real whisky (or bourbon)
                  flavor? does it worth?

                  Alex

                • castillo.alex2008
                  Hey Jim, Thanks for your reply. Now some 7 pounds of cracked corn, 10 pounds of white sugar, some nutrients and a good yeast strain sounds like a plan to
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 3, 2009
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                    Hey Jim,

                    Thanks for your reply.

                    Now some 7 pounds of cracked corn, 10 pounds of white sugar, some
                    nutrients and a good yeast strain sounds like a plan to follow to me.
                    Let´s give a chance to that Danstil 493 or even better to my last
                    sachet of Prestige´s WD with AG "for oldtimes´ sake" as Humphrey Bogart
                    said.
                  • Rob Macrobert
                    Thanks Jim, A big part of the reason for my interest, has to do with simple pricing. With local pricing @ $1.40/lb for untreated corn, $0.95/lb sugar or
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jan 4, 2009
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                      Thanks Jim,

                      A big part of the  reason for my interest, has to do with simple pricing.
                      With local pricing @ $1.40/lb for untreated corn, $0.95/lb sugar or $0.15/lb corn starch (I can get this from work), you can see why my interest was peaked. I may try a 5 Gal test batch this week just to see what happens, but don't really have any high hopes for a successful run.

                      But, then again.....

                      Cheers,

                      Robbie Mac
                      Sometime tinkerer and sometimes it even works....
                      

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