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Re: Sugar wash failed to make 18%...Damn!

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  • waljaco
    20% in controlled laboratory conditions - incremental feeding etc. wal ... your PDM ... yesties ... about ... gravity). ... know, ... store ... tastes a
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 6, 2008
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      20% in controlled laboratory conditions - incremental feeding etc.
      wal

      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "toddk63" <toddk63@...> wrote:
      >
      > Cause it did 18% so easily last time and Dr. Cone staes EC-1118 should
      > do 20%. That's all.
      >
      > Todd K.
      >
      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
      > <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Todd,
      > >
      > > One dumb question - Why do you want to try for a 19% wash when
      your PDM
      > > yeast is not only out of date but can only tolerate up to a 17% - 18%
      > > ABV??? All you will succeed in doing is over-taxing those poor
      yesties
      > > and stressing them out. There have been many posting here written
      about
      > > what bad stuff yeast starts making when it is over stressed due to
      > > excess osmotic pressure from too much sugars/solids...
      > >
      > > Vino es Veritas,
      > >
      > > Jim aka Waldo.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "toddk63" <toddk63@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > This is the second time I've done a "18%" sugar wash. First time
      > > > (Aug. 2004)I hit the 18% target ( 1.119 O.G. to 0.985 Final
      gravity).
      > > > I am using Dr. Clayton Cone's protocol from "Compleat Distiller".
      > > > Yeast is Red Star PDM. Best when used by date of 08/2003. Yes I
      know,
      > > > it was already expired when I bought and used it the first time in
      > > > 08/2004, but it worked fine. I do have a vacuum sealer and I do
      store
      > > > it refrigerated. I also adjust the amount of yeast to pitch based on
      > > > a formula I developed to account for degradation over time. So this
      > > > time (11/2008) I thought I would go for 19%. Made a wash to 1.123 OG
      > > > that only fermented down to 1.000 (about 16.5% abv). It even
      tastes a
      > > > bit sweet like a well balanced wine.
      > > >
      > > > Do you really think the yeast age is responsible for the less than
      > > > stellar performance, all other things being equal and considering I
      > > > properly store it and adjust the pitching rates accordingly?
      > > >
      > > > Thanks,
      > > >
      > > > Todd K.
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • John
      Well, can I add tomato paste at this point to help? I tasted and it is still sweet. Definitely alcohol in it, but nowhere near the 14-17% we are looking for.
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 7, 2008
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        Well, can I add tomato paste at this point to help? I tasted and it
        is still sweet. Definitely alcohol in it, but nowhere near the 14-17%
        we are looking for.

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
        <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hi John,
        >
        > Your recipe for 50 lbs. of apples and 20 lbs. of sugar for a 20 gallon
        > wash (its really called a "must" in the wine making world) sounds about
        > right, along with the 4 packets of champagne yeast (each packet is good
        > for about 5 gallons).
        >
        > After making apple wine, hard ciders, applejacks and now apple brandy
        > for over the past 30 years, one of the "musts" I have found that you
        > need in making a good apple wine or hard cider is yeast nutrients...
        >
        > Apples and sugar have very little of the nutrient requirements that them
        > yeasties need - among which are nitrogen, phosphates and potassium (NPK)
        > for minerals and amino acids, lipids and vitamins (especially the
        > B-Complex) for cell growth.
        >
        > Any apple wine recipe will suggest about 1 teaspoon of yeast nutrients
        > (which includes DAP for nitrogen) per gallon. Here is a typical recipe:
        >
        > Ingredients
        > [Age all wines one year or more.]
        > * 16 cups apples, cored and chopped * 2 pounds raisins * 1
        > cinnamon stick (optional) * 4 1/2 cups granulated sugar * 1
        > teaspoon yeast nutrients * 1 1/2 teaspoon acid blend * 1/2
        > teaspoon pectic enzyme * 1 campden tablet * 1 gallon water, hot
        > * 1 package wine yeast (for 1 to 5 gallons)
        >
        >
        > You also need to test the Ph level of your must and either add acid
        > blend or lemon juice to bring it down to around 5.4 to 5.8. Pectin
        > enzymes helps break down the apple solids / cell walls to allow more
        > juice to escape.
        >
        > And yes, as Morgan stated earlier, any solids in your must will skew
        > your hydrometer brix readings. As he stated, the best way to test is by
        > tasting it. A 2 to 3 weeks fermentation is way too long - mine is
        > usually finished (down to less then 1.000 SG in a week to 10 days
        > (clearing not included).
        >
        > My suggestion would be to order some yeast nutrients with DAP and add
        > some if in fact it still tastes sweet - Also read up on yeast nutrients
        > and Mason's MUM recipe in the Info Base.
        >
        > Hope this helps and Good Luck.
        >
        > Vino es Veritas,
        >
        > Jim aka Waldo.
        >
        >
        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John" <cls315@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Sorry for my confusion earlier.
        > >
        > > Newb here, most of the time just a lurker.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > We have made an apple wash. We used about 50 pounds of apples with 20
        > > pounds of sugar in a 20 gallon wash. We made a starter using 4
        > > packets of well in date Champagne yeast. We have this in a large food
        > > grade barrel. Everything was very clean and contamination is not our
        > > concern. We messed up by not being aware one of my kids had broken my
        > > hydrometer when we made it. The yeast was pitched within 24 hours of
        > > making the wash. We had decent activity the first two weeks, but
        > > after two weeks I got a new hydrometer and the wash tested at about
        > > 12% Brix. It was in my basement and we were worried temps were the
        > > issue. It has been in my washroom upstairs now for a week. The apple
        > > pulp (at least the large pieces) were removed last week. Tonight the
        > > wash is still only down to 10% Brix. The stirring utensil does not
        > > seem to have much residual sugar on it once drying, not near as much
        > > as when we started. I am wondering how much effect the small pulp
        > > still left in the wash could be affecting the hydrometer's readings?
        > > Also, if you guys don't think the pulp is causing a misread, what do I
        > > need to do to get this thing restarted? I have considered miracle
        > > grow. My local brew store is not really local, it's 50 miles away.
        > > Is there anything else I can go buy at a grocery store that might help
        > > at this point? Thanks!
        > >
        >
      • morganfield1
        Hi John, Now we come to the whole other story . Once a fermentation becomes stuck , it has to be re-started. That means you have to provide the environment
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 7, 2008
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          Hi John,

          Now we come to the "whole other story". Once a fermentation
          becomes "stuck", it has to be re-started. That means you have to
          provide the environment of a new wash, including oxigen, nutrients, and
          fresh yeast. Yes, there is still living yeast in the wash, but it will
          need a fresh starter to get it going strong. And that doesn't always
          succeed, a stuck wash is 50/50 either way. But, what do you have to
          loose! I'm not a fan of high percentage washes, but to each his own.HTH

          Tip one, Morgan

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John" <cls315@...> wrote:
          >
          > Well, can I add tomato paste at this point to help? I tasted and it
          > is still sweet. Definitely alcohol in it, but nowhere near the 14-17%
          > we are looking for.
          >
          >
        • John Chad Kinsey Sr.
          Well I found some yeast nutrients I had laying around. I also procured a quart of blackstrap unprocessed molasses. With that I mixed some new bakers yeast to
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 7, 2008
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            Well I found some yeast nutrients I had laying around.  I also procured a quart of blackstrap unprocessed molasses.  With that I mixed some new bakers yeast to get things working again.  All this was pitched to the wash/must about half an hour ago.  We’ll see what happens.

             

             

            From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of morganfield1
            Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 5:16 PM
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Wash

             

            Hi John,

            Now we come to the "whole other story". Once a fermentation
            becomes "stuck", it has to be re-started. That means you have to
            provide the environment of a new wash, including oxigen, nutrients, and
            fresh yeast. Yes, there is still living yeast in the wash, but it will
            need a fresh starter to get it going strong. And that doesn't always
            succeed, a stuck wash is 50/50 either way. But, what do you have to
            loose! I'm not a fan of high percentage washes, but to each his own.HTH

            Tip one, Morgan

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John" <cls315@...> wrote:

            >
            > Well, can I add tomato paste at this point to help? I tasted and it
            > is still sweet. Definitely alcohol in it, but nowhere near the 14-17%
            > we are looking for.
            >
            >

             


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          • rye_junkie1
            ... procured a ... new bakers ... wash/must ... The Blackstrap may have done more harm than good. It would have risen the Gravity even more causing more
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 7, 2008
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              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John Chad Kinsey Sr."
              <cls315@...> wrote:
              >
              > Well I found some yeast nutrients I had laying around. I also
              procured a
              > quart of blackstrap unprocessed molasses. With that I mixed some
              new bakers
              > yeast to get things working again. All this was pitched to the
              wash/must
              > about half an hour ago. We'll see what happens.


              The Blackstrap may have done more harm than good. It would have risen
              the Gravity even more causing more problems. I have beat the "Low
              Gravity" drum for quite some time and couldn't agree more with Morgan
              as to staying away from them (except for turbo yeasts and then dont
              push them to their limit). You would have been better off simply
              pitching new yeast and adding a tablespoon of Miracle Grow Plant food.
              If you did your sg calculations correct then 14% should work with your
              Champagne yeast but its gonna be SLOOOOOW. As I have said in many
              past posts, It takes less time to do 2 washes at 8-10%, say a week.
              Once you cross that line the fermentation time grows damn near
              exponentially. You'll figure it out. If you can lay your mits on
              some EC1118 and some miracle grow now would be a good time to try it.


              Mason
            • John Chad Kinsey Sr.
              The original 4 packets of yeast were EC1118. Maybe this step will liven up the EC1118 a bit. From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 7, 2008
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                The original 4 packets of yeast were EC1118.  Maybe this step will liven up the EC1118 a bit.

                 

                From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rye_junkie1
                Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:42 PM
                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Wash

                 

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John Chad Kinsey Sr."
                <cls315@...> wrote:

                >
                > Well I found some yeast nutrients I had laying around. I also
                procured a
                > quart of blackstrap unprocessed molasses. With that I mixed some
                new bakers
                > yeast to get things working again. All this was pitched to the
                wash/must
                > about half an hour ago. We'll see what happens.

                The Blackstrap may have done more harm than good. It would have risen
                the Gravity even more causing more problems. I have beat the "Low
                Gravity" drum for quite some time and couldn't agree more with Morgan
                as to staying away from them (except for turbo yeasts and then dont
                push them to their limit). You would have been better off simply
                pitching new yeast and adding a tablespoon of Miracle Grow Plant food.
                If you did your sg calculations correct then 14% should work with your
                Champagne yeast but its gonna be SLOOOOOW. As I have said in many
                past posts, It takes less time to do 2 washes at 8-10%, say a week.
                Once you cross that line the fermentation time grows damn near
                exponentially. You'll figure it out. If you can lay your mits on
                some EC1118 and some miracle grow now would be a good time to try it.

                Mason

                 


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              • rye_junkie1
                ... liven up ... So many steps mentioned. Anyway If the start yeast was ec1118 then I would add a tablespoon of plant food or some REAL yeast nutrients if you
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 7, 2008
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                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John Chad Kinsey Sr."
                  <cls315@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The original 4 packets of yeast were EC1118. Maybe this step will
                  liven up
                  > the EC1118 a bit.


                  So many steps mentioned. Anyway If the start yeast was ec1118 then I
                  would add a tablespoon of plant food or some REAL yeast nutrients if
                  you have them. Blackstrap aint gonna cut it. B Complex vitamin, epsom
                  salts, potassium chloride(salt substitute) all come to mind but the
                  Miracle Grow will be your best bet.

                  Mason
                • John Chad Kinsey Sr.
                  As I stated earlier, I did add some REAL yeast nutrients today. I had forgotten I had them and just came across them in my refrigerator when pouring a drink.
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 7, 2008
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                    As I stated earlier, I did add some REAL yeast nutrients today.  I had forgotten I had them and just came across them in my refrigerator when pouring a drink.  We’ll see what happens in the next 18 hours or so I guess.

                     

                     

                    From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rye_junkie1
                    Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:36 PM
                    To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Wash

                     

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John Chad Kinsey Sr."
                    <cls315@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > The original 4 packets of yeast were EC1118. Maybe this step will
                    liven up
                    > the EC1118 a bit.

                    So many steps mentioned. Anyway If the start yeast was ec1118 then I
                    would add a tablespoon of plant food or some REAL yeast nutrients if
                    you have them. Blackstrap aint gonna cut it. B Complex vitamin, epsom
                    salts, potassium chloride(salt substitute) all come to mind but the
                    Miracle Grow will be your best bet.

                    Mason

                     


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                  • John Chad Kinsey Sr.
                    Thanks to all that attempted to help. Upon returning home from work today I have a nice thick cap of remaining pulp and a vigorous fermentation going. I have
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 8, 2008
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                      Thanks to all that attempted to help.  Upon returning home from work today I have a nice thick cap of remaining pulp and a vigorous fermentation going.  I have pushed down the cap tonight and will continue to do so each night this week.  Seems that the yeast nutrients I found along with the blackstrap molasses have done the trick.

                       

                      No trees were harmed to send this message however an awful lot of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

                       

                      From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rye_junkie1
                      Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:36 PM
                      To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Apple Wash

                       

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John Chad Kinsey Sr."
                      <cls315@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > The original 4 packets of yeast were EC1118. Maybe this step will
                      liven up
                      > the EC1118 a bit.

                      So many steps mentioned. Anyway If the start yeast was ec1118 then I
                      would add a tablespoon of plant food or some REAL yeast nutrients if
                      you have them. Blackstrap aint gonna cut it. B Complex vitamin, epsom
                      salts, potassium chloride(salt substitute) all come to mind but the
                      Miracle Grow will be your best bet.

                      Mason

                       


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                    • gooseeye
                      ... work today I ... going. ... night ... blackstrap ... you getin it in the hi teens gonna warsh your flavers out. your mind still set on getin in the hi
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 10, 2008
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                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "John Chad Kinsey Sr."
                        <cls315@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Thanks to all that attempted to help. Upon returning home from
                        work today I
                        > have a nice thick cap of remaining pulp and a vigorous fermentation
                        going.
                        > I have pushed down the cap tonight and will continue to do so each
                        night
                        > this week. Seems that the yeast nutrients I found along with the
                        blackstrap
                        > molasses have done the trick.
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        you getin it in the hi teens gonna warsh your flavers out.
                        your mind still set on getin in the hi teens add your suger in steps.
                        keep it from getin stuck so bad

                        so im tole
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