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Caring for internal elements

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  • rye_junkie1
    I have been thinking about going electric for Spirit runs for some time now. The major decision for me was whether to go internal elements or external hot
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 1, 2008
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      I have been thinking about going electric for Spirit runs for some
      time now. The major decision for me was whether to go internal
      elements or external hot plate. After doing some reading and thinking
      I decided that Internal elements made the most sense to me as I wanted
      something that was plug in and forget. So I picked up a 1500 watt 120
      volt element and a 2500 watt 240 volt element that I am running at 120
      volts for I think an end result of 625 watts. So far I have only
      installed the 625 watt element and after a 3 gallon reflux spirit run
      yesterday I am very please with the decision. I had it sitting on my
      propane burner and used that(carefully) to help bring the low wines up
      to temp quickly and then killed it. It was just plain wonderful not
      having to check or adjust that damn flame every so often. And it was
      satisfying knowing that I was making the run at a speed that would
      give me more control over the outcome of the run. Propane did not
      afford this in my opinion.
      So after all of that explanation My question is: is there any special
      care that needs to be taken with these? I just used water heater
      elements from the hardware store and they were nice and shiny when
      new. After a 2 hour burn in water they had pretty much flaked all
      that shine off and are just brown now. Will they rust?
      From my explanation above did I get my wattage calculations right?
      The plan is to install the 1500 watt element as well and use them both
      for heat up and the cut back to one or the other depending on what
      column I have on the boiler (pot or reflux) and what I am making. I
      bought a new matching stock pot for this and will continue to use the
      old one for strip runs using the propane cooker. And yes I did
      remember to cover the element with water for safety. This will also
      make me apply Harry's still charge dilution principal as well. :)

      Mason
    • KM Services
      Mate, I have 2# 1500 watt 240 volts elements in my 50 Litre keg and the coils on the elements are copper and never have a problem with them. After each run I
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 1, 2008
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        Mate,

        I have 2# 1500 watt 240 volts elements in my 50 Litre keg and the coils on the elements are copper and never have a problem with them. After each run I empty out then rinse well a couple of times and occasionally will use my water blaster to give the inside of the keg a birthday.

        I use a turbo clear so my wash is pretty “clean” when it goes into the boiler and if emptied when dunder is still hot and rinsed then does not require any further cleaning if let to sit to cool can have some yeast residue sticking to elements and boiler sides, but a quick water blast does the trick or a couple of extra rinses

         

        This is my opinion and if I am wrong I will be corrected I am sure...

        Cheers

        Ken Mc

         


        From: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com [mailto: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of rye_junkie 1
        Sent: Tuesday, 2 December 2008 2:23 p.m.
        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [new_distillers] Caring for internal elements

         

        I have been thinking about going electric for Spirit runs for some
        time now. The major decision for me was whether to go internal
        elements or external hot plate. After doing some reading and thinking
        I decided that Internal elements made the most sense to me as I wanted
        something that was plug in and forget. So I picked up a 1500 watt 120
        volt element and a 2500 watt 240 volt element that I am running at 120
        volts for I think an end result of 625 watts. So far I have only
        installed the 625 watt element and after a 3 gallon reflux spirit run
        yesterday I am very please with the decision. I had it sitting on my
        propane burner and used that(carefully) to help bring the low wines up
        to temp quickly and then killed it. It was just plain wonderful not
        having to check or adjust that damn flame every so often. And it was
        satisfying knowing that I was making the run at a speed that would
        give me more control over the outcome of the run. Propane did not
        afford this in my opinion.
        So after all of that explanation My question is: is there any special
        care that needs to be taken with these? I just used water heater
        elements from the hardware store and they were nice and shiny when
        new. After a 2 hour burn in water they had pretty much flaked all
        that shine off and are just brown now. Will they rust?
        From my explanation above did I get my wattage calculations right?
        The plan is to install the 1500 watt element as well and use them both
        for heat up and the cut back to one or the other depending on what
        column I have on the boiler (pot or reflux) and what I am making. I
        bought a new matching stock pot for this and will continue to use the
        old one for strip runs using the propane cooker. And yes I did
        remember to cover the element with water for safety. This will also
        make me apply Harry's still charge dilution principal as well. :)

        Mason

      • Sherman
        You ma be happy to know that a lot of the cheap elements are simply copper plated. Some of the expensive ones are chrome nickel. I just rinse mine and so far I
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 1, 2008
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          You ma be happy to know that a lot of the cheap elements are simply
          copper plated. Some of the expensive ones are chrome nickel. I just
          rinse mine and so far I have a copper one that has many thousand hours
          on it and still like new. I have had some really nasty grain washes
          starch it up once in a while but a wipe with a cloth cleans it right up.

          I have good controllers if you need one for more control of the power
          if you decide to run one of these with a column.


          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I have been thinking about going electric for Spirit runs for some
          > time now. The major decision for me was whether to go internal
          > elements or external hot plate. After doing some reading and thinking
          > I decided that Internal elements made the most sense to me as I wanted
          > something that was plug in and forget. So I picked up a 1500 watt 120
          > volt element and a 2500 watt 240 volt element that I am running at 120
          > volts for I think an end result of 625 watts. So far I have only
          > installed the 625 watt element and after a 3 gallon reflux spirit run
          > yesterday I am very please with the decision. I had it sitting on my
          > propane burner and used that(carefully) to help bring the low wines up
          > to temp quickly and then killed it. It was just plain wonderful not
          > having to check or adjust that damn flame every so often. And it was
          > satisfying knowing that I was making the run at a speed that would
          > give me more control over the outcome of the run. Propane did not
          > afford this in my opinion.
          > So after all of that explanation My question is: is there any special
          > care that needs to be taken with these? I just used water heater
          > elements from the hardware store and they were nice and shiny when
          > new. After a 2 hour burn in water they had pretty much flaked all
          > that shine off and are just brown now. Will they rust?
          > From my explanation above did I get my wattage calculations right?
          > The plan is to install the 1500 watt element as well and use them both
          > for heat up and the cut back to one or the other depending on what
          > column I have on the boiler (pot or reflux) and what I am making. I
          > bought a new matching stock pot for this and will continue to use the
          > old one for strip runs using the propane cooker. And yes I did
          > remember to cover the element with water for safety. This will also
          > make me apply Harry's still charge dilution principal as well. :)
          >
          > Mason
          >
        • abbababbaccc
          Good decision Mason. Now you did not mention your column size or pot size/insulation, but it could well be that the 1500W element is the way to go. Calculate
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 1, 2008
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            Good decision Mason. Now you did not mention your column size or pot
            size/insulation, but it could well be that the 1500W element is the
            way to go. Calculate the vaporspeed and heat losses and aim for
            12"/s. About the element care, with sugar mashes I just rinse them.
            They turn brownish or even copper color but so far they have hold
            well in my use. With malt mashes I sometimes need to clear them a bit
            with a scrubber.

            Cheers, Riku

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I have been thinking about going electric for Spirit runs for some
            > time now. The major decision for me was whether to go internal
            > elements or external hot plate. After doing some reading and
            thinking
            > I decided that Internal elements made the most sense to me as I
            wanted
            > something that was plug in and forget. So I picked up a 1500 watt
            120
            > volt element and a 2500 watt 240 volt element that I am running at
            120
            > volts for I think an end result of 625 watts. So far I have only
            > installed the 625 watt element and after a 3 gallon reflux spirit
            run
            > yesterday I am very please with the decision. I had it sitting on
            my
            > propane burner and used that(carefully) to help bring the low wines
            up
            > to temp quickly and then killed it. It was just plain wonderful not
            > having to check or adjust that damn flame every so often. And it
            was
            > satisfying knowing that I was making the run at a speed that would
            > give me more control over the outcome of the run. Propane did not
            > afford this in my opinion.
            > So after all of that explanation My question is: is there any
            special
            > care that needs to be taken with these? I just used water heater
            > elements from the hardware store and they were nice and shiny when
            > new. After a 2 hour burn in water they had pretty much flaked all
            > that shine off and are just brown now. Will they rust?
            > From my explanation above did I get my wattage calculations right?
            > The plan is to install the 1500 watt element as well and use them
            both
            > for heat up and the cut back to one or the other depending on what
            > column I have on the boiler (pot or reflux) and what I am making. I
            > bought a new matching stock pot for this and will continue to use
            the
            > old one for strip runs using the propane cooker. And yes I did
            > remember to cover the element with water for safety. This will also
            > make me apply Harry's still charge dilution principal as well. :)
            >
            > Mason
            >
          • rye_junkie1
            ... Thanks Ken, Sherman and Riku for weighing in on this. Your answers are what I thought they would be. The Elements that I used were not expensive ones 13
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 2, 2008
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              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
              <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
              >
              > Good decision Mason. Now you did not mention your column size or pot
              > size/insulation, but it could well be that the 1500W element is the
              > way to go. Calculate the vaporspeed and heat losses and aim for
              > 12"/s. About the element care, with sugar mashes I just rinse them.
              > They turn brownish or even copper color but so far they have hold
              > well in my use. With malt mashes I sometimes need to clear them a bit
              > with a scrubber.
              >
              > Cheers, Riku


              Thanks Ken, Sherman and Riku for weighing in on this. Your answers
              are what I thought they would be. The Elements that I used were not
              expensive ones 13 bucks each at the local ACE hardware. The column
              size for my pot Rig is 14" of 1.5" copper tube Tee'd to a 3/4" arm and
              condenser(Liebig). There are 2- 3/8" OD through tubes just under the
              Tee for CM if I want to use them for a little reflux. I figured this
              would be what I used the 1500 watt element for.
              My reflux column is 48" of 1.5" set up VM style using a coil at the
              top and my 3/4 ID x 1" OD (jacket) liebig . I would use the 625 watt
              element for this one. Riku, I think you actually recommended 500
              watts for this but 625 is the best I can do for now.

              Mason
            • skmackie
              This guy has sent me two emails saying the same thing as below. Maybe it wasn t such a good idea to give out my email address to this group. At least it s my
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 3, 2008
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                This guy has sent me two emails saying the same thing as below. Maybe it wasn't such a
                good idea to give out my email address to this group. At least it's my throwaway
                address.

                Sheryl

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Benson Hard <benson.hard@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > DEAR SIRS/MADAM,
                >  
                > I WANT TO START HOME DISTILLATION UNIT (NEUTRAL ALCOHOL)BY DAILY 500
                LITTER.. PLEASE SEND THE DRAWING OF 200 LITTER CAPACITY POTS. HOW TO BOILING
                ,FILTERING ETC
                >
                > --- On Wed, 3/12/08, rye_junkie1 <rye_junkie@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: rye_junkie1 <rye_junkie@...>
                > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Caring for internal elements
                > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Wednesday, 3 December, 2008, 1:25 AM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "abbababbaccc"
                > <abbababbaccc@ ...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Good decision Mason. Now you did not mention your column size or pot
                > > size/insulation, but it could well be that the 1500W element is the
                > > way to go. Calculate the vaporspeed and heat losses and aim for
                > > 12"/s. About the element care, with sugar mashes I just rinse them.
                > > They turn brownish or even copper color but so far they have hold
                > > well in my use. With malt mashes I sometimes need to clear them a bit
                > > with a scrubber.
                > >
                > > Cheers, Riku
                >
                > Thanks Ken, Sherman and Riku for weighing in on this. Your answers
                > are what I thought they would be. The Elements that I used were not
                > expensive ones 13 bucks each at the local ACE hardware. The column
                > size for my pot Rig is 14" of 1.5" copper tube Tee'd to a 3/4" arm and
                > condenser(Liebig) . There are 2- 3/8" OD through tubes just under the
                > Tee for CM if I want to use them for a little reflux. I figured this
                > would be what I used the 1500 watt element for.
                > My reflux column is 48" of 1.5" set up VM style using a coil at the
                > top and my 3/4 ID x 1" OD (jacket) liebig . I would use the 625 watt
                > element for this one. Riku, I think you actually recommended 500
                > watts for this but 625 is the best I can do for now.
                >
                > Mason
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Get an email ID as yourname@... or yourname@... Click here
                http://in.promos.yahoo.com/address
                >
              • abbababbaccc
                Mason, my recommendation was indeed for 2 column - I forgot you had such a small one :) Anyway, even with 500W aim you ll have to take into account the heat
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 3, 2008
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                  Mason, my recommendation was indeed for 2" column - I forgot you had
                  such a small one :) Anyway, even with 500W aim you'll have to take
                  into account the heat losses - typically close to 500W for
                  uninsulated 25 liters SS vessel.

                  Cheers, Riku

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                  > <abbababbaccc@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Good decision Mason. Now you did not mention your column size or
                  pot
                  > > size/insulation, but it could well be that the 1500W element is
                  the
                  > > way to go. Calculate the vaporspeed and heat losses and aim for
                  > > 12"/s. About the element care, with sugar mashes I just rinse
                  them.
                  > > They turn brownish or even copper color but so far they have hold
                  > > well in my use. With malt mashes I sometimes need to clear them a
                  bit
                  > > with a scrubber.
                  > >
                  > > Cheers, Riku
                  >
                  >
                  > Thanks Ken, Sherman and Riku for weighing in on this. Your answers
                  > are what I thought they would be. The Elements that I used were not
                  > expensive ones 13 bucks each at the local ACE hardware. The column
                  > size for my pot Rig is 14" of 1.5" copper tube Tee'd to a 3/4" arm
                  and
                  > condenser(Liebig). There are 2- 3/8" OD through tubes just under
                  the
                  > Tee for CM if I want to use them for a little reflux. I figured
                  this
                  > would be what I used the 1500 watt element for.
                  > My reflux column is 48" of 1.5" set up VM style using a coil at the
                  > top and my 3/4 ID x 1" OD (jacket) liebig . I would use the 625
                  watt
                  > element for this one. Riku, I think you actually recommended 500
                  > watts for this but 625 is the best I can do for now.
                  >
                  > Mason
                  >
                • Harry
                  ... Maybe it wasn t such a ... my throwaway ... Put him in the killfile. Slainte! regards Harry
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 4, 2008
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                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "skmackie" <skmackie@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > This guy has sent me two emails saying the same thing as below.
                    Maybe it wasn't such a
                    > good idea to give out my email address to this group. At least it's
                    my throwaway
                    > address.


                    Put him in the killfile.

                    Slainte!
                    regards Harry
                  • rye_junkie1
                    ... So if I understand you correctly, with my currently uninsulated 7.5 gallon boiler a 1000 watt element may be necessary to compensate for heat loss at the
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 4, 2008
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                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                      <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Mason, my recommendation was indeed for 2" column - I forgot you had
                      > such a small one :) Anyway, even with 500W aim you'll have to take
                      > into account the heat losses - typically close to 500W for
                      > uninsulated 25 liters SS vessel.
                      >
                      > Cheers, Riku


                      So if I understand you correctly, with my currently uninsulated 7.5
                      gallon boiler a 1000 watt element may be necessary to compensate for
                      heat loss at the boiler? I realize there are a bunch of variables in
                      this game but I want to make sure i am understanding the basics as I
                      make the Hobby more technical.
                      To add to this, what would be a good insulation to use for the boiler?
                      I know a couple of beach towels and some duct tape would help but
                      there has to be a "Good and Reasonable" solution.
                      Thanks.

                      Mason
                    • abbababbaccc
                      ... had ... take ... in ... boiler? ... That s right. Either 1000W without insulation or that 625W element and good insulation. People have used cheap sleeping
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 4, 2008
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                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                        > <abbababbaccc@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Mason, my recommendation was indeed for 2" column - I forgot you
                        had
                        > > such a small one :) Anyway, even with 500W aim you'll have to
                        take
                        > > into account the heat losses - typically close to 500W for
                        > > uninsulated 25 liters SS vessel.
                        > >
                        > > Cheers, Riku
                        >
                        >
                        > So if I understand you correctly, with my currently uninsulated 7.5
                        > gallon boiler a 1000 watt element may be necessary to compensate for
                        > heat loss at the boiler? I realize there are a bunch of variables
                        in
                        > this game but I want to make sure i am understanding the basics as I
                        > make the Hobby more technical.
                        > To add to this, what would be a good insulation to use for the
                        boiler?
                        > I know a couple of beach towels and some duct tape would help but
                        > there has to be a "Good and Reasonable" solution.
                        > Thanks.
                        >
                        > Mason
                        >

                        That's right. Either 1000W without insulation or that 625W element
                        and good insulation. People have used cheap sleeping pads made of
                        foam quite succesfully, cut to fit and duct tape together. Another
                        good option is floor insulation foam that is used with floor heating
                        systems - it tolerates reasonable amount of heat and insulates quite
                        well. Rockwool is also efficient but PITA to work with. Then we have
                        self adhesive materials used for sound suppression and the list goes
                        on - go to your local HW store or cheap mart and start looking around.

                        Cheers, Riku
                      • Harry
                        ... Cheapest ($5-$10) and most successful solution for small boilers is a windshield sun protector. Wrap it around & tape in place. It reflects all the heat
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 4, 2008
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                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > That's right. Either 1000W without insulation or that 625W element
                          > and good insulation. People have used cheap sleeping pads made of
                          > foam quite succesfully, cut to fit and duct tape together. Another
                          > good option is floor insulation foam that is used with floor heating
                          > systems - it tolerates reasonable amount of heat and insulates quite
                          > well. Rockwool is also efficient but PITA to work with. Then we have
                          > self adhesive materials used for sound suppression and the list goes
                          > on - go to your local HW store or cheap mart and start looking around.
                          >
                          > Cheers, Riku
                          >

                          Cheapest ($5-$10) and most successful solution for small boilers is a windshield sun protector.  Wrap it around & tape in place.  It reflects all the heat back into the boiler.

                          No Frost Windscreen Protector 

                           

                          Slainte!
                          regards Harry

                        • rye_junkie1
                          ...
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 4, 2008
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                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@>
                            > wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > > That's right. Either 1000W without insulation or that 625W element
                            > > and good insulation. People have used cheap sleeping pads made of
                            > > foam quite succesfully, cut to fit and duct tape together. Another
                            > > good option is floor insulation foam that is used with floor heating
                            > > systems - it tolerates reasonable amount of heat and insulates quite
                            > > well. Rockwool is also efficient but PITA to work with. Then we have
                            > > self adhesive materials used for sound suppression and the list goes
                            > > on - go to your local HW store or cheap mart and start looking around.
                            > >
                            > > Cheers, Riku
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > Cheapest ($5-$10) and most successful solution for small boilers is a
                            > windshield sun protector. Wrap it around & tape in place. It reflects
                            > all the heat back into the boiler.
                            >
                            > [No Frost Windscreen Protector]
                            >
                            <http://www.cheapcat.com/scripts/forward.php?name=No+Frost+Windscreen+Pr\
                            >
                            otector&merchant=Grand+Prix+Legends&product=EUX003(GPL_BaseCatalog)&stre\
                            > am=ccp>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Slainte!
                            > regards Harry


                            I would never have thought of the windshield thingy. My wife has one
                            almost like that in her trunk that she never uses. Mine now. Shiny
                            side to the boiler right?
                            Thanks to the both of you for the ideas.

                            Mason
                          • Rodney
                            ... reflects I work at Home Depot so I m running into things that spark the imagination for contraptions all day long. Anyway today down the insulation aisle
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 4, 2008
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                              > > windshield sun protector. Wrap it around & tape in place. It
                              reflects


                              I work at Home Depot so I'm running into things that spark the
                              imagination for contraptions all day long. Anyway today down the
                              insulation aisle (which I don't normally work down) I saw the
                              reflective insulation rolls (similar to your windshield protectors)
                              its a good sized roll for $10 bucks, which will probably make you
                              several windshield protectors....Or man good still blankets.

                              Rodney
                            • Zapata Vive
                              I can vouch for the shiny bubble insulation from HD or Lowes. Works a dream, and is the perfect size (2 wide) to fit a keg, or can be cut readily to any
                              Message 14 of 15 , Dec 5, 2008
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                                I can vouch for the shiny bubble insulation from HD or Lowes.  Works a dream, and is the perfect size (2' wide) to fit a keg, or can be cut readily to any other desired size.  Plus, it doesn't look anywhere near as ghetto as a sleeping pad, not that I'm above that, I used to have a blue one on my boiler.  But the shiny foil goes well with all the copper and stainless IMHO.
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Rodney
                                Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 10:53 PM
                                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Caring for internal elements



                                > > windshield sun protector. Wrap it around & tape in place. It
                                reflects


                                I work at Home Depot so I'm running into things that spark the
                                imagination for contraptions all day long. Anyway today down the
                                insulation aisle (which I don't normally work down) I saw the
                                reflective insulation rolls (similar to your windshield protectors)
                                its a good sized roll for $10 bucks, which will probably make you
                                several windshield protectors.. ..Or man good still blankets.

                                Rodney

                              • rye_junkie1
                                ... a dream, and is the perfect size (2 wide) to fit a keg, or can be cut readily to any other desired size. Plus, it doesn t look anywhere near as ghetto as
                                Message 15 of 15 , Dec 5, 2008
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                                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Zapata Vive" <zapatavive@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I can vouch for the shiny bubble insulation from HD or Lowes. Works
                                  a dream, and is the perfect size (2' wide) to fit a keg, or can be cut
                                  readily to any other desired size. Plus, it doesn't look anywhere
                                  near as ghetto as a sleeping pad, not that I'm above that, I used to
                                  have a blue one on my boiler. But the shiny foil goes well with all
                                  the copper and stainless IMHO.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Rodney
                                  > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 10:53 PM
                                  > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Caring for internal elements
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > > windshield sun protector. Wrap it around & tape in place. It
                                  > reflects
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I work at Home Depot so I'm running into things that spark the
                                  > imagination for contraptions all day long. Anyway today down the
                                  > insulation aisle (which I don't normally work down) I saw the
                                  > reflective insulation rolls (similar to your windshield protectors)
                                  > its a good sized roll for $10 bucks, which will probably make you
                                  > several windshield protectors....Or man good still blankets.
                                  >
                                  > Rodney
                                  >

                                  And off to Home Depot I go. Time for a new Grill too. Thanks guys.
                                  Is this the Stuff?
                                  http://tinyurl.com/5vl9z3

                                  Mason
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