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Re: Whiskey questions

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  • rye_junkie1
    ... It was my understanding that Alex was using either the triple enzyme from Brewhaus or simply pitched the Prestige yeast with AG into the cracked corn. It
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 3, 2008
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      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
      <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi Alex,
      >
      > One question before I can answer any of yours (yea I know - the old
      > trick of ask a question to answer a question trick [:)] ).
      >
      > What "enzymes" do you mean - are they Alpha and Beta Amylase and AG?
      > Also why didnt you just use malted barley or DME?
      >
      > Vino es Veritas,
      >
      > Jim.


      It was my understanding that Alex was using either the triple enzyme
      from Brewhaus or simply pitched the Prestige yeast with AG into the
      cracked corn. It was an experiment to prove or disprove that the
      enzymes would convert the starches without cooking/mashing at 150F for
      90 minutes as you would with Malted Barley.

      Mason
    • castillo.alex2008
      Hi Jim I´m using the sachet of three enzymes from brewhaus: 4.2 grams with pectinase, alpha amylase and AG. Now I´m planing to use malt. How do you use
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 3, 2008
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        Hi Jim

        I´m using the sachet of three enzymes from brewhaus: 4.2 grams with
        pectinase, alpha amylase and AG. Now I´m planing to use malt. How
        do you use DME?

        Thanks,

        Alex

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
        <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hi Alex,
        >
        > One question before I can answer any of yours (yea I know - the old
        > trick of ask a question to answer a question trick [:)] ).
        >
        > What "enzymes" do you mean - are they Alpha and Beta Amylase and
        AG?
        > Also why didnt you just use malted barley or DME?
        >
        > Vino es Veritas,
        >
        > Jim.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
        > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Hola!
        > >
        > > I´m fermenting on the grains around 9.5 pounds of cracked maize in
        > 20
        > > liters of water using enzymes to break the starch into fermentable
        > > sugars. Neither cane sugar nor nutrients are being used. About 1/4
        > > cup of baker´s yeast was added.
        > >
        > > Questions:
        > >
        > > 1. I have noticed the formation of a thin yellow film on top of
        the
        > > fermenter, but strong enough to retain the carbon dioxide
        released by
        > > the mash. Is this film normal or is it due to some infection?
        > >
        > > 2. I stirred the whole mash to mix the enzymes and yeast with the
        > > starch but must I continue doing this every single day during the
        > > fermentation time?
        > >
        > > 3. When can I assume the fermentation is over? (after 3 days
        > > fermenting I measured the gravity of the mash and found it to be
        > > around 1.0, but I´m not sure if this can be trusted).
        > >
        > > 4. What yield of alcohol (liters and %ABV) must be expected from
        this
        > > amount of corn?
        > >
        > > 5. Will 60C (i.e. during a few hours) be a reasonable temp. for
        > > cooking a mash bill using malted barley, since I´m planing to use
        > it
        > > as my source of enzymes in the near future.
        > >
        > > Thanks,
        > >
        > > Alex
        > >
        >
      • rye_junkie1
        ... DME (Dried Malt Extract) is used pretty much like sugar in a wash. You would add the DME to hot water and dissolve it to an SG of 1.060-1.070 let it cool
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 3, 2008
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          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
          <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Jim
          >
          > I´m using the sachet of three enzymes from brewhaus: 4.2 grams with
          > pectinase, alpha amylase and AG. Now I´m planing to use malt. How
          > do you use DME?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Alex

          DME (Dried Malt Extract) is used pretty much like sugar in a wash.
          You would add the DME to hot water and dissolve it to an SG of
          1.060-1.070 let it cool and pitch yeast. Even though the title says
          "Malt" it has no Diastatic properties. It is expensive as ingredients
          go but comes highly recommended by some for making a very good Malt
          Whiskey. Around these parts at brew shops it runs about 6 bucks a pound.

          Mason
        • castillo.alex2008
          Hi Mason and Jim Let me add some more info of my experiments with grains: Experiment # 1: Water (12 liters), Corn meal (6 pounds), enzymes (Brewhaus sachet,
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 3, 2008
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            Hi Mason and Jim

            Let me add some more info of my experiments with grains:

            Experiment # 1:

            Water (12 liters), Corn meal (6 pounds), enzymes (Brewhaus sachet,
            4.2 grams of 3 enzymes); mixing without cooking, prestige turbo 48
            (1/4 cup); air form a pump during one hour.

            Result: after 5 days, stripping about 400 ml at 30% ABV. Strong odor.

            Experiment #2: (similar to one seen at Tony´s site)

            Cool water (10 liters), Cracked corn (154 grams, some 9.6 pounds),
            boiling water (10 liters) (this gives 20 liters of water at about
            60C). Leave overnight.

            The next day added the enzyme´s sachet and 1/4 cup of hydrated
            baker´s yeast. Air during aprox. 1 hour. Still going (it has 5 days
            today).

            Alex

            P.D.

            In a future experiment, depending of these results plan to substitute
            the enzymes with malted barley (add some rye) and use prestige´s
            whiskye yeast with AG.

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
            > <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi Alex,
            > >
            > > One question before I can answer any of yours (yea I know - the
            old
            > > trick of ask a question to answer a question trick [:)] ).
            > >
            > > What "enzymes" do you mean - are they Alpha and Beta Amylase and
            AG?
            > > Also why didnt you just use malted barley or DME?
            > >
            > > Vino es Veritas,
            > >
            > > Jim.
            >
            >
            > It was my understanding that Alex was using either the triple enzyme
            > from Brewhaus or simply pitched the Prestige yeast with AG into the
            > cracked corn. It was an experiment to prove or disprove that the
            > enzymes would convert the starches without cooking/mashing at 150F
            for
            > 90 minutes as you would with Malted Barley.
            >
            > Mason
            >
          • castillo.alex2008
            Hi Mason That´s it? Disolve in water, adjust SG and pitch yeast? nutrients? PH adjust? Do you have a link with something more about DME? Alex ... with ... How
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 3, 2008
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              Hi Mason

              That´s it? Disolve in water, adjust SG and pitch yeast? nutrients? PH
              adjust?

              Do you have a link with something more about DME?

              Alex

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
              > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi Jim
              > >
              > > I´m using the sachet of three enzymes from brewhaus: 4.2 grams
              with
              > > pectinase, alpha amylase and AG. Now I´m planing to use malt.
              How
              > > do you use DME?
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > >
              > > Alex
              >
              > DME (Dried Malt Extract) is used pretty much like sugar in a wash.
              > You would add the DME to hot water and dissolve it to an SG of
              > 1.060-1.070 let it cool and pitch yeast. Even though the title says
              > "Malt" it has no Diastatic properties. It is expensive as
              ingredients
              > go but comes highly recommended by some for making a very good Malt
              > Whiskey. Around these parts at brew shops it runs about 6 bucks a
              pound.
              >
              > Mason
              >
            • rye_junkie1
              ... Thats pretty much it. Search DME in this group back to April of this year. Harry posted some good info on the subject. Mason
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 3, 2008
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                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hi Mason
                >
                > That´s it? Disolve in water, adjust SG and pitch yeast? nutrients? PH
                > adjust?
                >
                > Do you have a link with something more about DME?
                >
                > Alex
                >

                Thats pretty much it. Search "DME" in this group back to April of
                this year. Harry posted some good info on the subject.

                Mason
              • waljaco
                Yellow slick could be maize oil. Your cracked maize grains should be maize meal in size if they have not been cooked for a speedy conversion. You need to
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 4, 2008
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                  Yellow slick could be maize oil. Your cracked maize grains should be
                  maize meal in size if they have not been cooked for a speedy
                  conversion. You need to breakdown starch cell walls either by cooking
                  or mechanically by fine grinding.
                  wal
                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                  <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hola!
                  >
                  > I´m fermenting on the grains around 9.5 pounds of cracked maize in 20
                  > liters of water using enzymes to break the starch into fermentable
                  > sugars. Neither cane sugar nor nutrients are being used. About 1/4
                  > cup of baker´s yeast was added.
                  >
                  > Questions:
                  >
                  > 1. I have noticed the formation of a thin yellow film on top of the
                  > fermenter, but strong enough to retain the carbon dioxide released by
                  > the mash. Is this film normal or is it due to some infection?
                  >
                  > 2. I stirred the whole mash to mix the enzymes and yeast with the
                  > starch but must I continue doing this every single day during the
                  > fermentation time?
                  >
                  > 3. When can I assume the fermentation is over? (after 3 days
                  > fermenting I measured the gravity of the mash and found it to be
                  > around 1.0, but I´m not sure if this can be trusted).
                  >
                  > 4. What yield of alcohol (liters and %ABV) must be expected from this
                  > amount of corn?
                  >
                  > 5. Will 60C (i.e. during a few hours) be a reasonable temp. for
                  > cooking a mash bill using malted barley, since I´m planing to use it
                  > as my source of enzymes in the near future.
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  >
                  > Alex
                  >
                • jamesonbeam1
                  Hey Alex, The three enzymes (Pectinase, Alpha amlyase and AG) in that packet from Brewhaus your talking about will convert some of the starches to sugars. But
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 4, 2008
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                    Hey Alex,

                    The three enzymes (Pectinase, Alpha amlyase and AG) in that packet from Brewhaus your talking about will convert some of the starches to sugars.  But I doubt you will get a 80% or more conversion, without a complete mash process incorporating the Beta Amylase enzymes as well...  First Off:

                    Pectinase has nothing to do with breaking up starches into sugars.  What it does, is help break down the cell walls of fruits / grains (which have pectin to hold them together) to bring out more of the juices.  Pectinase is part of the ripening process of all fruits and grains....  This breakdown of the cell walls is also accomplished by the mashing / heating process- but again, does not produce mono-saccarides.....

                    You must remember, what we are trying to accomplish here (in mashing) is the process of breaking  down the  starches - (Starch is a poly-saccaride - very large chains of glucose, etc., which is insoluble in water).  into the various di-saccarides (Note: Sucrose found in Cane Sugars is also a di-saccaride), then break those down into the mono-saccarides to allow the yeasties to quickly digest them and generate CO2 and Alcohol for us.  Yeast can only digest mono-saccarides such as fructose, glucose or maltose, etc...  the 3 enzymes of Alpha and Beta amylase along with AG will help accomplish this (forget pectinase my freind:)).  See Below:

                    "In order for those starches to be converted into water soluble sugars (fermentable and unfermentable), two processes need to happen. First the starch is gelatenized to become water soluble. For starch found in barley and malt this happens above 140ºF (60ºC). Other starches (rice for example) gelatinizes only above 194ºF (90ºC) and requires boiling (see cereal mash) before it can be converted by enzymes. Secondly the activity of the amylase enzymes break the long chained starch molecules into shorter chains."

                    Now let me talk about Alpha Amylase enzymes:

                    "Alpha Amylase is able to split 1-4 links within glucose (starch)  chains. By doing so, it exposes additional non-reducing ends for the beta amylase. This allows for the further conversion of Amylopectin. The optimal pH range is between 5.6 and 5.8 and the optimal temperature range is between 162ºF (72ºC) and 167ºF (75ºC). Above 176ºF (80ºC) alpha amylase is quickly deactivated [Narziss, 2005] "

                    Beta Amylase enzymes are another ingredient required in the mashing process: 

                    "Beta amylase produces Maltose, the main wort sugar, by splitting 2 glucose molecules from the non-reducing end of a glucose (starch)  chain. It is therefore able to completely convert Amylose. But since it cannot get past the branch joins, Amylopectin cannot completely be converted by beta amylase. The optimal pH range for beta amylase between 5.4 and 5.6 and the optimal temperature range is between 140ºF (60ºC) and 150ºF (65ºC). Above 160ºF (70ºC) beta amylase is quickly deactivated [Narziss, 2005]. "

                    Now the AG (Amyloglucosidase) will futher help convert some of these di-saccarides into mon-saccarides to help our yeastie friends out even better:

                    "AG is added to the yeast. In distilleries, Amyloglucosidase (AG) is added to convert the non-fermentable sugars in the mash to the fermentable sugars. This is best done during fermentation. It's not so easy during the mashing as AG shall be used in max 40C (104F) and will be destroyed in warmer mash. To duplicate the fermentation of a distillery, AG must be added. It is mixed with the yeast. It also increases the alcohol yield so the yeast pays for itself."

                    Hope I have not confused you too much here Alex with all this, I too get confused when trying to figure this stuff out - along with what the heck is really considered Dunder LOL...;);).

                    We will talk about DME in the next posting and whether or not,  it is in fact, Diastatic....

                    Vino es Veritas,

                    Jim.

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Jim
                    >
                    > I´m using the sachet of three enzymes from brewhaus: 4.2 grams with
                    > pectinase, alpha amylase and AG. Now I´m planing to use malt. How
                    > do you use DME?
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    >
                    > Alex
                    >
                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                    > jamesonbeam1@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hi Alex,
                    > >
                    > > One question before I can answer any of yours (yea I know - the old
                    > > trick of ask a question to answer a question trick [:)] ).
                    > >
                    > > What "enzymes" do you mean - are they Alpha and Beta Amylase and
                    > AG?
                    > > Also why didnt you just use malted barley or DME?
                    > >
                    > > Vino es Veritas,
                    > >
                    > > Jim.

                  • waljaco
                    Glucoamylase replaces beta-amylase in the literature I have seen. It cleaves both 1,4 and 1,6 links. Fungal glucoamylase can stand high temperatures. Sometimes
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 4, 2008
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                      Glucoamylase replaces beta-amylase in the literature I have seen. It
                      cleaves both 1,4 and 1,6 links. Fungal glucoamylase can stand high
                      temperatures. Sometimes pullulase is added. Pectinase is not relevant
                      to grain mashes.

                      Whether you should use malted barley and not just enzymes to make corn
                      whiskey is more relevant. Different character?
                      wal

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                      <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hey Alex,
                      >
                      > The three enzymes (Pectinase, Alpha amlyase and AG) in that packet from
                      > Brewhaus your talking about will convert some of the starches to sugars.
                      > But I doubt you will get a 80% or more conversion, without a complete
                      > mash process incorporating the Beta Amylase enzymes as well... First
                      > Off:
                      >
                      > Pectinase has nothing to do with breaking up starches into sugars. What
                      > it does, is help break down the cell walls of fruits / grains (which
                      > have pectin to hold them together) to bring out more of the juices.
                      > Pectinase is part of the ripening process of all fruits and grains....
                      > This breakdown of the cell walls is also accomplished by the mashing /
                      > heating process- but again, does not produce mono-saccarides.....
                      >
                      > You must remember, what we are trying to accomplish here (in mashing) is
                      > the process of breaking down the starches - (Starch is a
                      > poly-saccaride - very large chains of glucose, etc., which is insoluble
                      > in water). into the various di-saccarides (Note: Sucrose found in Cane
                      > Sugars is also a di-saccaride), then break those down into the
                      > mono-saccarides to allow the yeasties to quickly digest them and
                      > generate CO2 and Alcohol for us. Yeast can only digest mono-saccarides
                      > such as fructose, glucose or maltose, etc... the 3 enzymes of Alpha and
                      > Beta amylase along with AG will help accomplish this (forget pectinase
                      > my freind [:)] ). See Below:
                      >
                      > "In order for those starches to be converted into water soluble sugars
                      > (fermentable and unfermentable), two processes need to happen. First the
                      > starch is gelatenized to become water soluble. For starch found in
                      > barley and malt this happens above 140ºF (60ºC). Other starches
                      > (rice for example) gelatinizes only above 194ºF (90ºC) and
                      > requires boiling (see cereal mash) before it can be converted by
                      > enzymes. Secondly the activity of the amylase enzymes break the long
                      > chained starch molecules into shorter chains."
                      >
                      > Now let me talk about Alpha Amylase enzymes:
                      >
                      > "Alpha Amylase is able to split 1-4 links within glucose (starch)
                      > chains. By doing so, it exposes additional non-reducing ends for the
                      > beta amylase. This allows for the further conversion of Amylopectin. The
                      > optimal pH range is between 5.6 and 5.8 and the optimal temperature
                      > range is between 162ºF (72ºC) and 167ºF (75ºC). Above
                      > 176ºF (80ºC) alpha amylase is quickly deactivated [Narziss, 2005]
                      > "
                      >
                      > Beta Amylase enzymes are another ingredient required in the mashing
                      > process:
                      >
                      > "Beta amylase produces Maltose, the main wort sugar, by splitting 2
                      > glucose molecules from the non-reducing end of a glucose (starch)
                      > chain. It is therefore able to completely convert Amylose. But since it
                      > cannot get past the branch joins, Amylopectin cannot completely be
                      > converted by beta amylase. The optimal pH range for beta amylase between
                      > 5.4 and 5.6 and the optimal temperature range is between 140ºF
                      > (60ºC) and 150ºF (65ºC). Above 160ºF (70ºC) beta amylase
                      > is quickly deactivated [Narziss, 2005]. "
                      >
                      > Now the AG (Amyloglucosidase) will futher help convert some of these
                      > di-saccarides into mon-saccarides to help our yeastie friends out even
                      > better:
                      >
                      > "AG is added to the yeast. In distilleries, Amyloglucosidase (AG) is
                      > added to convert the non-fermentable sugars in the mash to the
                      > fermentable sugars. This is best done during fermentation. It's not so
                      > easy during the mashing as AG shall be used in max 40C (104F) and will
                      > be destroyed in warmer mash. To duplicate the fermentation of a
                      > distillery, AG must be added. It is mixed with the yeast. It also
                      > increases the alcohol yield so the yeast pays for itself."
                      >
                      > Hope I have not confused you too much here Alex with all this, I too get
                      > confused when trying to figure this stuff out - along with what the heck
                      > is really considered Dunder LOL... [;)] [;)] .
                      >
                      > We will talk about DME in the next posting and whether or not, it is in
                      > fact, Diastatic....
                      >
                      > Vino es Veritas,
                      >
                      > Jim.
                      >
                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                      > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hi Jim
                      > >
                      > > I´m using the sachet of three enzymes from brewhaus: 4.2 grams with
                      > > pectinase, alpha amylase and AG. Now I´m planing to use malt. How
                      > > do you use DME?
                      > >
                      > > Thanks,
                      > >
                      > > Alex
                      > >
                      > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                      > > jamesonbeam1@ wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Alex,
                      > > >
                      > > > One question before I can answer any of yours (yea I know - the old
                      > > > trick of ask a question to answer a question trick [:)] ).
                      > > >
                      > > > What "enzymes" do you mean - are they Alpha and Beta Amylase and
                      > > AG?
                      > > > Also why didnt you just use malted barley or DME?
                      > > >
                      > > > Vino es Veritas,
                      > > >
                      > > > Jim.
                      >
                    • castillo.alex2008
                      Hi Wal and Jim I know that pectinase is irrelevant in this hydrolisis, but it is included in the sachet, so that´s the reason I used it. About the corn meal,
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 4, 2008
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                        Hi Wal and Jim

                        I know that pectinase is irrelevant in this hydrolisis, but it is
                        included in the sachet, so that´s the reason I used it. About the
                        corn meal, it worked the way you (Wal) told me (please see a previous
                        post of mine in this same thread labeled as experiment #1)but even
                        when I saw it bubbling big time, I only got some 400 ml 30% ABV after
                        stripping (too low for a yield) from about 6 pounds of corn meal
                        without cooking. I´ll let you know about my results from experiment
                        #2 and will use malt instead of enzymes using the same experiment,
                        it´s easy and keeps the overall temp around 60C for more than an hour
                        I think.

                        Alex

                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Yellow slick could be maize oil. Your cracked maize grains should be
                        > maize meal in size if they have not been cooked for a speedy
                        > conversion. You need to breakdown starch cell walls either by
                        cooking
                        > or mechanically by fine grinding.
                        > wal
                        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                        > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hola!
                        > >
                        > > I´m fermenting on the grains around 9.5 pounds of cracked maize
                        in 20
                        > > liters of water using enzymes to break the starch into
                        fermentable
                        > > sugars. Neither cane sugar nor nutrients are being used. About
                        1/4
                        > > cup of baker´s yeast was added.
                        > >
                        > > Questions:
                        > >
                        > > 1. I have noticed the formation of a thin yellow film on top of
                        the
                        > > fermenter, but strong enough to retain the carbon dioxide
                        released by
                        > > the mash. Is this film normal or is it due to some infection?
                        > >
                        > > 2. I stirred the whole mash to mix the enzymes and yeast with the
                        > > starch but must I continue doing this every single day during the
                        > > fermentation time?
                        > >
                        > > 3. When can I assume the fermentation is over? (after 3 days
                        > > fermenting I measured the gravity of the mash and found it to be
                        > > around 1.0, but I´m not sure if this can be trusted).
                        > >
                        > > 4. What yield of alcohol (liters and %ABV) must be expected from
                        this
                        > > amount of corn?
                        > >
                        > > 5. Will 60C (i.e. during a few hours) be a reasonable temp. for
                        > > cooking a mash bill using malted barley, since I´m planing to use
                        it
                        > > as my source of enzymes in the near future.
                        > >
                        > > Thanks,
                        > >
                        > > Alex
                        > >
                        >
                      • abbababbaccc
                        Jim, What s the deal with pectin and pectinase. As I have understood it pectin is required for the formation of methanol. Whatabout pectinase then? Does it
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 4, 2008
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                          Jim,

                          What's the deal with pectin and pectinase. As I have understood it
                          pectin is required for the formation of methanol. Whatabout pectinase
                          then? Does it increase or decrease the amount of methanol in our
                          distillate?

                          Cheers, Riku

                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                          <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Pectinase has nothing to do with breaking up starches into sugars. What
                          > it does, is help break down the cell walls of fruits / grains (which
                          > have pectin to hold them together) to bring out more of the juices.
                          > Pectinase is part of the ripening process of all fruits and grains....
                          > This breakdown of the cell walls is also accomplished by the mashing /
                          > > > Vino es Veritas,
                          > > >
                          > > > Jim.
                          >
                        • jamesonbeam1
                          Hi Riku, Pectin is basically the organic glue stuff that holds plant cell walls together. It is found more in the harder / tougher parts of plants then in the
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 4, 2008
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                            Hi Riku,

                            Pectin is basically the organic glue stuff that holds plant cell walls together. It is found more in the harder / tougher parts of plants then  in the softer parts.

                            During ripening, pectin is broken down by the enzymes pectinase and pectinesterase; in this process the fruit becomes softer as the cell walls break down.  It is mainly used for making jams and jellies which solidifies them.  It has no real nutritional value except as dietary fiber:

                            "Pectin refers to a group of diverse and complex polysaccharides found in the primary cell wall and intercellular space (middle lamella) of plant cells. Pectin is mostly composed of a sugar residue called D-galacturonic acid. The dominant polysaccharides in pectin are homogalacturonan, rhamnogalacturonan I, rhamnogalacturonan II, and xylogalacturonan. Pectin is a carbohydrate."

                            In distilling, plants high in pectin such as apples, grapes etc., will produce some methanol - this also occurs naturally:

                            "In nature, around 80% of carboxyl groups of galacturonic acid are esterified with methanol. This proportion is decreased more or less during pectin extraction. The ratio of esterified to non-esterified galacturonic acid determines the behavior of pectin in food applications. This is why pectins are classified as high- vs. low-ester pectins – or in short HM vs. LM-pectins, with more or less than half of all the galacturonic acid esterified."   (not sure I understand all of this hehe).

                            "Some plants like sugar-beet, potatoes and pears contain pectins with acetylated galacturonic acid in addition to methyl esters. Acetylation prevents gel-formation but increases the stabilising and emulsifying effects of pectin."

                            A pure sugar wash will not produce any methanol, as far as I understand. 

                            Pectinase will  break down the cell walls in fermentable plants (fruits and grains), and by doing so, reduce the amount of pectin and also increase the amount of juices for fermentation- ergo, also reducing the amount of  methanol that is produced:

                            "Therefore pectinase enzymes are commonly used in processes involving the degradation of plant materials, such as speeding up the extraction of fruit juice from fruit, including apples and sapota. Pectinases have also been used in wine production since the 1960s. They can be extracted from fungi such as Aspergillus niger. The fungus produces these enzymes to break down the middle lamella in plants so that it can extract nutrients from the plant tissues and insert fungal hyphae. If pectinase is boiled it is denatured...."  

                            But again, Pectinase has nothing to do with conversion of starches to sugars.

                            I beleive this is the correct deduction, but may be wrong.

                            Vino es Veritas,

                            Jim.

                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc" <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Jim,
                            >
                            > What's the deal with pectin and pectinase. As I have understood it
                            > pectin is required for the formation of methanol. Whatabout pectinase
                            > then? Does it increase or decrease the amount of methanol in our
                            > distillate?
                            >
                            > Cheers, Riku
                            >
                            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                            > jamesonbeam1@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Pectinase has nothing to do with breaking up starches into sugars. What
                            > > it does, is help break down the cell walls of fruits / grains (which
                            > > have pectin to hold them together) to bring out more of the juices.
                            > > Pectinase is part of the ripening process of all fruits and grains....
                            > > This breakdown of the cell walls is also accomplished by the mashing /
                            > > > > Vino es Veritas,
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Jim.
                            > >
                            >

                          • jamesonbeam1
                            Hi there Mason and Alex - Alloha, DME and LME (liquid malt extract) may be used for the enzyematic activity in mashing (alpha and beta amlyase). This just
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 4, 2008
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                              Hi there Mason and Alex - Alloha,

                              DME and LME (liquid malt extract) may be used for the enzyematic activity in mashing (alpha and beta amlyase).  This just depends on whether they are diastatic or non-diastatic extracts. You need to specify what you want before you buy it.

                              Note: Diastatic -

                              Diastatic power:

                              From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                              The diastatic power (DP), also called the "diastatic activity" or "enzymatic power", of a grain generally refers only to malts, grains which have begun to germinate; the act of germination includes the production of a number of enzymes such as amylase which convert starch into sugar; thereby, sugars can be extracted from the barley's own starches simply by soaking the grain in water at a controlled temperature: this is mashing. Other enzymes break long proteins into short ones and accomplish other important tasks.

                              In general, the hotter a grain is kilned, the less its diastatic activity; consequently, only lightly-colored grains can be used as base malts, with Munich malt being the darkest base malt generally available.

                              Diastatic activity can also be provided by diastatic malt extract or by inclusion of separately-prepared brewing enzymes.

                              Diastatic power for a grain is measured in degrees Lintner (°Lintner or °L, although the latter can conflict with the symbol °L for Lovibond color); or in Europe by Windisch-Kolbach units (°WK). The two measures are related by

                              {}^\circ\mbox{Lintner} = \frac{{}^\circ\mbox{WK} + 16}{3.5}
                              {}^\circ\mbox{WK} = \left ( 3.5 \times {}^\circ\mbox{Lintner} \right ) - 16.

                              A malt with enough power to self-convert has a diastatic power near 35 °Lintner (94 °WK); the most active, so-called "hottest" malts currently available, American six-row pale barley malts, have a diastatic power of up to 160 °Lintner (544 °WK)."

                              Side note: DME along with LME,  can be diastatic with active enzymes, depending on how it was made:

                              "Dry Diastatic Malt, a dry blend of malted barley flour, wheat flour and dextrose, as compared to the previous dry non diastatic malts, shows lower reducing sugars, higher protein and a lighter color. It should be stressed here, however, that dry diastatic malt contributes very little in terms of flavor or color versus use of liquid diastatic malt. If liquid diastatic malt were to be dried, the enzymes, or diastatic system, would be rendered inactive due to the heat that must be used in the drying process. Therefore, the only way to achieve a dry diastatic malt is by dry blending the malted barley flour, which is enzymatically active in the range of 200º Lintner, with the standardizing ingredients wheat flour and dextrose. (While it is a "malt", malted barley flour does not have a malt flavor nor does it contribute much to color. It basically is just a flour with enzymatic activity.) The blending ratios used will vary depending on the beginning activity of the malted barley flour versus the desired finished product Lintner values of either 20º L. or 60º L. Basically then, by using dry diastatic malt, the only beneficial characteristic available is that of enzymatic activity (not color, not flavor, not crust characteristics). Conversely, of course, by using diastatic malt, the beneficial malt characteristics are available to the user."  

                               (Believe it or not - from: http://www.maltproducts.com/news.whatismalt.html  regarding making Bagels hehe.)

                              Vino es Veritas,

                              Jim.


                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                              > castillo.alex2008@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Hi Jim
                              > >
                              > > I´m using the sachet of three enzymes from brewhaus: 4.2 grams with
                              > > pectinase, alpha amylase and AG. Now I´m planing to use malt. How
                              > > do you use DME?
                              > >
                              > > Thanks,
                              > >
                              > > Alex
                              >
                              > DME (Dried Malt Extract) is used pretty much like sugar in a wash.
                              > You would add the DME to hot water and dissolve it to an SG of
                              > 1.060-1.070 let it cool and pitch yeast. Even though the title says
                              > "Malt" it has no Diastatic properties. It is expensive as ingredients
                              > go but comes highly recommended by some for making a very good Malt
                              > Whiskey. Around these parts at brew shops it runs about 6 bucks a pound.
                              >
                              > Mason
                              >

                            • castillo.alex2008
                              Hi Jim ... understand. So, according to that is useless to discard our first 50-100 ml as foreshots when using white or black sugar, so instead should we
                              Message 14 of 24 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                Hi Jim

                                You have stated:

                                > A pure sugar wash will not produce any methanol, as far as I
                                understand.

                                So, according to that is useless to discard our first 50-100 ml as
                                foreshots when using white or black sugar, so instead should we
                                considered that as heads and redistill them in the next spirits run?

                                Alex
                              • jamesonbeam1
                                Hola Alex, I still believe that since you didnt use a full mashing technique and substituted AG for the beta amlyase enzymes, you did not fully convert all the
                                Message 15 of 24 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                  Hola Alex,

                                  I still believe that since you didnt use a full mashing technique and
                                  substituted AG for the beta amlyase enzymes, you did not fully convert
                                  all the starch to sugars. This is probably why you got such a low ABV
                                  and return on your fermentation.

                                  You may want to try the easy and dirty test of Iodine to see how black
                                  it gets - see the info base. Also, since i have never experimented with
                                  AG in yeast or as an additive, cannot really comment on if AG does
                                  replace beta amlyase or if it is just an addition after the fact.
                                  Something i have to try out. Will be very interested to know the
                                  results of your second experiment....

                                  Vino es Veritas,

                                  Jim.


                                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                                  <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:


                                  Hi Wal and Jim

                                  I know that pectinase is irrelevant in this hydrolisis, but it is
                                  included in the sachet, so that´s the reason I used it. About the
                                  corn meal, it worked the way you (Wal) told me (please see a previous
                                  post of mine in this same thread labeled as experiment #1)but even
                                  when I saw it bubbling big time, I only got some 400 ml 30% ABV after
                                  stripping (too low for a yield) from about 6 pounds of corn meal
                                  without cooking. I´ll let you know about my results from experiment
                                  #2 and will use malt instead of enzymes using the same experiment,
                                  it´s easy and keeps the overall temp around 60C for more than an hour
                                  I think.

                                  Alex
                                • jamesonbeam1
                                  NoOOOO Alex, the first 100 ml or so (again depending on your boiler size), will contain some lower boiling point distillates - especially Acetone..... This
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                    NoOOOO Alex,

                                    the first 100 ml or so (again depending on your boiler size), will contain some lower boiling point distillates - especially Acetone.....  This will smell like paint thinner or nail polish remover - it is also poisonous.  While there may also be some methanol in foreshots from grains or fruits, it will be equally distrubuted throughout the distillation.

                                    You should check the first droppings from your still and smell - when they stop smelling like nail polish remover - then you can keep em (I know, us men dont do our nails - so ask a female to smell em, or get a painter ROTF) :).

                                    Again,  Look at the Boiling points: 

                                    • Acetone 56.5C (134F)
                                    • Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F)
                                    • Ethyl acetate 77.1C (171F)
                                    • Ethanol 78C (172F)
                                    • 2-Propanol (rubbing alcohol) 82C (180F)
                                    • 1-Propanol 97C (207F)
                                    • Water 100C (212F)
                                    • Butanol 116C (241F)
                                    • Amyl alcohol 137.8C (280F)
                                    • Furfural 161C (322F)

                                    Vino es Veritas,

                                    Jim.


                                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi Jim
                                    >
                                    > You have stated:
                                    >
                                    > > A pure sugar wash will not produce any methanol, as far as I
                                    > understand.
                                    >
                                    > So, according to that is useless to discard our first 50-100 ml as
                                    > foreshots when using white or black sugar, so instead should we
                                    > considered that as heads and redistill them in the next spirits run?
                                    >
                                    > Alex
                                    >

                                  • castillo.alex2008
                                    Hi Jim Today I filtered it through a pillowcase, no cracked corn passed to the fermenter, but after a while some solid settled in the botton (trub and lees?).
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                      Hi Jim

                                      Today I filtered it through a pillowcase, no cracked corn passed to
                                      the fermenter, but after a while some solid settled in the botton
                                      (trub and lees?). Probably tomorrow I´ll rack it to the boiler and
                                      strip it and we will see. I´m about to order the flaked rye and the
                                      6 row malt, but I´ll appreciate you give me some links to places
                                      where to get DME or LME, the former better as you pointed before.

                                      In the other hand I put today other brown sugar wash for rum, but
                                      using K1-V116, 20 grams to 15 lbs./25 liters wash (did I add too
                                      much?) to try to speed it, since I want to get the many esters Lalvin
                                      people claim this strain produces, and not adding baking soda to the
                                      stripped for the same reason, try to get flavors. I´ll follow
                                      Harry´s advice and go ahead and add backset to dillute the charge
                                      during spirits run (this backset is what was discussed must be called
                                      dunder right?) Tomorrow I´ll add some molasses.

                                      Alex

                                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                                      <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hola Alex,
                                      >
                                      > I still believe that since you didnt use a full mashing technique
                                      and
                                      > substituted AG for the beta amlyase enzymes, you did not fully
                                      convert
                                      > all the starch to sugars. This is probably why you got such a low
                                      ABV
                                      > and return on your fermentation.
                                      >
                                      > You may want to try the easy and dirty test of Iodine to see how
                                      black
                                      > it gets - see the info base. Also, since i have never experimented
                                      with
                                      > AG in yeast or as an additive, cannot really comment on if AG does
                                      > replace beta amlyase or if it is just an addition after the fact.
                                      > Something i have to try out. Will be very interested to know the
                                      > results of your second experiment....
                                      >
                                      > Vino es Veritas,
                                      >
                                      > Jim.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                                      > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hi Wal and Jim
                                      >
                                      > I know that pectinase is irrelevant in this hydrolisis, but it is
                                      > included in the sachet, so that´s the reason I used it. About the
                                      > corn meal, it worked the way you (Wal) told me (please see a
                                      previous
                                      > post of mine in this same thread labeled as experiment #1)but even
                                      > when I saw it bubbling big time, I only got some 400 ml 30% ABV
                                      after
                                      > stripping (too low for a yield) from about 6 pounds of corn meal
                                      > without cooking. I´ll let you know about my results from experiment
                                      > #2 and will use malt instead of enzymes using the same experiment,
                                      > it´s easy and keeps the overall temp around 60C for more than an
                                      hour
                                      > I think.
                                      >
                                      > Alex
                                      >
                                    • castillo.alex2008
                                      Hi Jim Hey thanks, I almost forgot acetone, you´re right. What about ethyl acetate and some other esters? are they produced in quantities to be worried about
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                        Hi Jim

                                        Hey thanks, I almost forgot acetone, you´re right. What about ethyl
                                        acetate and some other esters? are they produced in quantities to be
                                        worried about in terms of health? I use to add baking soda (wich will
                                        get rid of them), but in my last 2 or 3 spirits run I haven´t as Wal
                                        suggested that if you´re not after vodka or schnapps will eliminate
                                        some wanted flavors, what do you think?

                                        Alex


                                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                                        <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > NoOOOO Alex,
                                        >
                                        > the first 100 ml or so (again depending on your boiler size), will
                                        > contain some lower boiling point distillates - especially
                                        Acetone.....
                                        > This will smell like paint thinner or nail polish remover - it is
                                        also
                                        > poisonous. While there may also be some methanol in foreshots from
                                        > grains or fruits, it will be equally distrubuted throughout the
                                        > distillation.
                                        >
                                        > You should check the first droppings from your still and smell -
                                        when
                                        > they stop smelling like nail polish remover - then you can keep em
                                        (I
                                        > know, us men dont do our nails - so ask a female to smell em, or
                                        get a
                                        > painter ROTF) [:)] .
                                        >
                                        > Again, Look at the Boiling points:
                                        >
                                        > * Acetone 56.5C (134F) * Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C
                                        (147F) *
                                        > Ethyl acetate 77.1C (171F) * Ethanol 78C (172F) * 2-Propanol
                                        > (rubbing alcohol) 82C (180F) * 1-Propanol 97C (207F) * Water
                                        > 100C (212F) * Butanol 116C (241F) * Amyl alcohol 137.8C
                                        (280F)
                                        > * Furfural 161C (322F)
                                        >
                                        > Vino es Veritas,
                                        >
                                        > Jim.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                                        > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Hi Jim
                                        > >
                                        > > You have stated:
                                        > >
                                        > > > A pure sugar wash will not produce any methanol, as far as I
                                        > > understand.
                                        > >
                                        > > So, according to that is useless to discard our first 50-100 ml as
                                        > > foreshots when using white or black sugar, so instead should we
                                        > > considered that as heads and redistill them in the next spirits
                                        run?
                                        > >
                                        > > Alex
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • waljaco
                                        Try an experiment using crushed raw sweet potatoes instead of malt - I gather there are plenty your way. The raw sweet potatoes contain a lot of useful enzymes
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                          Try an experiment using crushed raw sweet potatoes instead of malt - I
                                          gather there are plenty your way. The raw sweet potatoes contain a lot
                                          of useful enzymes and the Japanese have used them successfully.
                                          I gather you should get 500ml 50%abv from 1kg of corn (?)
                                          wal
                                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                                          <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hi Wal and Jim
                                          >
                                          > I know that pectinase is irrelevant in this hydrolisis, but it is
                                          > included in the sachet, so that´s the reason I used it. About the
                                          > corn meal, it worked the way you (Wal) told me (please see a previous
                                          > post of mine in this same thread labeled as experiment #1)but even
                                          > when I saw it bubbling big time, I only got some 400 ml 30% ABV after
                                          > stripping (too low for a yield) from about 6 pounds of corn meal
                                          > without cooking. I´ll let you know about my results from experiment
                                          > #2 and will use malt instead of enzymes using the same experiment,
                                          > it´s easy and keeps the overall temp around 60C for more than an hour
                                          > I think.
                                          >
                                          > Alex
                                          >
                                          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Yellow slick could be maize oil. Your cracked maize grains should be
                                          > > maize meal in size if they have not been cooked for a speedy
                                          > > conversion. You need to breakdown starch cell walls either by
                                          > cooking
                                          > > or mechanically by fine grinding.
                                          > > wal
                                          > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                                          > > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hola!
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I´m fermenting on the grains around 9.5 pounds of cracked maize
                                          > in 20
                                          > > > liters of water using enzymes to break the starch into
                                          > fermentable
                                          > > > sugars. Neither cane sugar nor nutrients are being used. About
                                          > 1/4
                                          > > > cup of baker´s yeast was added.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Questions:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > 1. I have noticed the formation of a thin yellow film on top of
                                          > the
                                          > > > fermenter, but strong enough to retain the carbon dioxide
                                          > released by
                                          > > > the mash. Is this film normal or is it due to some infection?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > 2. I stirred the whole mash to mix the enzymes and yeast with the
                                          > > > starch but must I continue doing this every single day during the
                                          > > > fermentation time?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > 3. When can I assume the fermentation is over? (after 3 days
                                          > > > fermenting I measured the gravity of the mash and found it to be
                                          > > > around 1.0, but I´m not sure if this can be trusted).
                                          > > >
                                          > > > 4. What yield of alcohol (liters and %ABV) must be expected from
                                          > this
                                          > > > amount of corn?
                                          > > >
                                          > > > 5. Will 60C (i.e. during a few hours) be a reasonable temp. for
                                          > > > cooking a mash bill using malted barley, since I´m planing to use
                                          > it
                                          > > > as my source of enzymes in the near future.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Thanks,
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Alex
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • castillo.alex2008
                                          Hi Wal Peeled or unpeeled crushed raw sweet potatoes? Yes we have plenty of it around. I love them for breakfast with melted white cheese. Aroun here is
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                            Hi Wal

                                            Peeled or unpeeled crushed raw sweet potatoes?

                                            Yes we have plenty of it around. I love them for breakfast with
                                            melted white cheese. Aroun here is called "batata".

                                            Alex

                                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Try an experiment using crushed raw sweet potatoes instead of malt -
                                            I
                                            > gather there are plenty your way. The raw sweet potatoes contain a
                                            lot
                                            > of useful enzymes and the Japanese have used them successfully.
                                            > I gather you should get 500ml 50%abv from 1kg of corn (?)
                                            > wal
                                            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                                            > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Hi Wal and Jim
                                            > >
                                            > > I know that pectinase is irrelevant in this hydrolisis, but it is
                                            > > included in the sachet, so that´s the reason I used it. About
                                            the
                                            > > corn meal, it worked the way you (Wal) told me (please see a
                                            previous
                                            > > post of mine in this same thread labeled as experiment #1)but
                                            even
                                            > > when I saw it bubbling big time, I only got some 400 ml 30% ABV
                                            after
                                            > > stripping (too low for a yield) from about 6 pounds of corn meal
                                            > > without cooking. I´ll let you know about my results from
                                            experiment
                                            > > #2 and will use malt instead of enzymes using the same
                                            experiment,
                                            > > it´s easy and keeps the overall temp around 60C for more than an
                                            hour
                                            > > I think.
                                            > >
                                            > > Alex
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Yellow slick could be maize oil. Your cracked maize grains
                                            should be
                                            > > > maize meal in size if they have not been cooked for a speedy
                                            > > > conversion. You need to breakdown starch cell walls either by
                                            > > cooking
                                            > > > or mechanically by fine grinding.
                                            > > > wal
                                            > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                                            > > > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Hola!
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > I´m fermenting on the grains around 9.5 pounds of cracked
                                            maize
                                            > > in 20
                                            > > > > liters of water using enzymes to break the starch into
                                            > > fermentable
                                            > > > > sugars. Neither cane sugar nor nutrients are being used.
                                            About
                                            > > 1/4
                                            > > > > cup of baker´s yeast was added.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Questions:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > 1. I have noticed the formation of a thin yellow film on
                                            top of
                                            > > the
                                            > > > > fermenter, but strong enough to retain the carbon dioxide
                                            > > released by
                                            > > > > the mash. Is this film normal or is it due to some infection?
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > 2. I stirred the whole mash to mix the enzymes and yeast with
                                            the
                                            > > > > starch but must I continue doing this every single day during
                                            the
                                            > > > > fermentation time?
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > 3. When can I assume the fermentation is over? (after 3 days
                                            > > > > fermenting I measured the gravity of the mash and found it to
                                            be
                                            > > > > around 1.0, but I´m not sure if this can be trusted).
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > 4. What yield of alcohol (liters and %ABV) must be expected
                                            from
                                            > > this
                                            > > > > amount of corn?
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > 5. Will 60C (i.e. during a few hours) be a reasonable temp.
                                            for
                                            > > > > cooking a mash bill using malted barley, since I´m planing to
                                            use
                                            > > it
                                            > > > > as my source of enzymes in the near future.
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Thanks,
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Alex
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • waljaco
                                            I do not think the thin peel is a hinderance - just grate them. 20% w/v is a recommended quantity. Sweet potatoes contain alpha and beta-amylases. (You can
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                              I do not think the thin peel is a hinderance - just grate them. 20%
                                              w/v is a recommended quantity.
                                              Sweet potatoes contain alpha and beta-amylases. (You can slowly cook
                                              them (80C) and all the starch will be converted if you want a sweet
                                              potato mash).
                                              The rice used was cooked though.
                                              Water at 80C seems optimal if using maize meal.
                                              wal

                                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                                              <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Hi Wal
                                              >
                                              > Peeled or unpeeled crushed raw sweet potatoes?
                                              >
                                              > Yes we have plenty of it around. I love them for breakfast with
                                              > melted white cheese. Aroun here is called "batata".
                                              >
                                              > Alex
                                              >
                                              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Try an experiment using crushed raw sweet potatoes instead of malt -
                                              > I
                                              > > gather there are plenty your way. The raw sweet potatoes contain a
                                              > lot
                                              > > of useful enzymes and the Japanese have used them successfully.
                                              > > I gather you should get 500ml 50%abv from 1kg of corn (?)
                                              > > wal
                                              > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                                              > > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Hi Wal and Jim
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I know that pectinase is irrelevant in this hydrolisis, but it is
                                              > > > included in the sachet, so that´s the reason I used it. About
                                              > the
                                              > > > corn meal, it worked the way you (Wal) told me (please see a
                                              > previous
                                              > > > post of mine in this same thread labeled as experiment #1)but
                                              > even
                                              > > > when I saw it bubbling big time, I only got some 400 ml 30% ABV
                                              > after
                                              > > > stripping (too low for a yield) from about 6 pounds of corn meal
                                              > > > without cooking. I´ll let you know about my results from
                                              > experiment
                                              > > > #2 and will use malt instead of enzymes using the same
                                              > experiment,
                                              > > > it´s easy and keeps the overall temp around 60C for more than an
                                              > hour
                                              > > > I think.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Alex
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Yellow slick could be maize oil. Your cracked maize grains
                                              > should be
                                              > > > > maize meal in size if they have not been cooked for a speedy
                                              > > > > conversion. You need to breakdown starch cell walls either by
                                              > > > cooking
                                              > > > > or mechanically by fine grinding.
                                              > > > > wal
                                              > > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                                              > > > > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Hola!
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > I´m fermenting on the grains around 9.5 pounds of cracked
                                              > maize
                                              > > > in 20
                                              > > > > > liters of water using enzymes to break the starch into
                                              > > > fermentable
                                              > > > > > sugars. Neither cane sugar nor nutrients are being used.
                                              > About
                                              > > > 1/4
                                              > > > > > cup of baker´s yeast was added.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Questions:
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > 1. I have noticed the formation of a thin yellow film on
                                              > top of
                                              > > > the
                                              > > > > > fermenter, but strong enough to retain the carbon dioxide
                                              > > > released by
                                              > > > > > the mash. Is this film normal or is it due to some infection?
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > 2. I stirred the whole mash to mix the enzymes and yeast with
                                              > the
                                              > > > > > starch but must I continue doing this every single day during
                                              > the
                                              > > > > > fermentation time?
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > 3. When can I assume the fermentation is over? (after 3 days
                                              > > > > > fermenting I measured the gravity of the mash and found it to
                                              > be
                                              > > > > > around 1.0, but I´m not sure if this can be trusted).
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > 4. What yield of alcohol (liters and %ABV) must be expected
                                              > from
                                              > > > this
                                              > > > > > amount of corn?
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > 5. Will 60C (i.e. during a few hours) be a reasonable temp.
                                              > for
                                              > > > > > cooking a mash bill using malted barley, since I´m planing to
                                              > use
                                              > > > it
                                              > > > > > as my source of enzymes in the near future.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Thanks,
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Alex
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              >
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