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Re: reharvesting yeast

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  • burrows206
    Allo non ami Jim, (hello my friend Jim) I m getting French language overload lately. Aa bit like stillin and trying to learn too much too quickly but
    Message 1 of 30 , Aug 2, 2008
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      Allo non ami Jim, (hello my friend Jim)

      I'm getting French language overload lately. Aa bit like stillin' and
      trying to learn too much too quickly but learning a bit or even a bit
      more than I am, would be a good thing for me. "The trouble and strife"
      (wife) is streets ahead of me on the language front.

      But anyway, sorry Jim I was reading and replying to email, last night,
      while imbibing too much of the (Rhum "LAGOA" rhum ambre traditionnel des
      antilles francaises 40% ) least wise that's what it says on the bottle
      (I just know I likes the rum). I'm sure I read something in the forum
      rules about emailing to the forum while under the af-fluance of
      ink-er-hol brevridge-ease hic-hic. So if it does I'm guilty as charged

      As to reharvesting yeasties' the way I would do it, is do a few ferments
      exactly the same way under the same conditions and whichever two produce
      the best tasting highest % abv's mix those two trubs together. And
      keep doing this every time with every couple of good tasting high proof
      washes and keep going ad infinitum With a good logging and fridge
      storing system you will end up with trub that will produce nice tasting
      high strength washes that should produce good tasting hooch. A bit like
      selective breeding of farm animals to get what size/shape you want and
      with the desired characteristics you want

      Geoff


      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > Allo Mon Ami Geoff,
      >
      > I believe Alex is talking about the Dunder from the trub part of the
      > fermentation with living yeast in it. Not the Dunder from the
      distilled
      > portion (backset). I've been really confused in the past by people
      > talking about Dunder and sometimes referring to both parts. Maybe
      > someone could straighten us out on what Dunder really is - I know ive
      > heard it used in both meanings.
      >
      > à Votre Santé Monsieur,
      >
      > Jim.
      >
      >
      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206"
      > jeffrey.burrows@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Alex,
      > > As far as I know the longer you keep dunder in the shed or garage,
      in
      > > the warmth, humidity or cold it all adds to the flavour of the rum
      > > when you are making the main rum wash. From what I can remember some
      > > of the guys have had dunder in their sheds well over a year with all
      > > sorts of growths growing in their and used it with remarkably good
      > > results. I might be wrong but I can't check as I had to do a full
      > > system recovery and did not have a backup I'm sure some of the guys
      > > can point you in the direction to the messages I' referring to.
      > > Geoff
      >
    • jamesonbeam1
      Re-pitching maybe, but Distilleries have keep their own special yeast strains growing and re-generating for generations. Vino es Veritas, Jim.
      Message 2 of 30 , Aug 2, 2008
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        Re-pitching maybe, but Distilleries have keep their own special yeast
        strains growing and re-generating for generations.

        Vino es Veritas,
        Jim.


        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
        >
        > That might be fine for a low volume home distiller but for one who has
        > aspirations to be an artisan distiller it is useful to note breweries
        > only re-pitch yeast 10 times.
        > wal
      • Harry
        ... The pure strain is propagated and perpetuated without it ever having seen active service , so to speak. Yeast must be cloned occasionally before it loses
        Message 3 of 30 , Aug 2, 2008
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          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
          <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
          >
          > Re-pitching maybe, but Distilleries have keep their own special yeast
          > strains growing and re-generating for generations.
          >
          > Vino es Veritas,
          > Jim.


          The pure strain is propagated and perpetuated without it ever having
          seen 'active service', so to speak. Yeast must be cloned occasionally
          before it loses its viability.

          This cloned yeast becomes the 'bank' or 'mother' yeast, from which they
          can grow up a working slurry if ever the need arises (tired yeast,
          mutated yeast, accidental loss e.g. a fire).

          What you are doing with re-harvested trub yeast is perpetuating
          a 'tried & proven' yeast, but it will include any mutations (yeast
          mutates according to environmental stresses). You 'may' find after a
          time, that the mutant yeast alters the flavour profile, or sometimes
          severely retards its fermenting capability. That's why commercial
          outfits limit the number of times they'll use re-harvested yeasts.
          Conversely, yeast can also mutate into strains with desirable traits
          and enhanced capabilities. If you ever manage to breed such a beastie,
          You really need to isolate it and perpetuate/propagate it via rigorous
          lab methods. That's how some of the famous strains came into being.


          Slainte!
          regards Harry
        • jamesonbeam1
          Sidenote Wal, I was speaking in terms of Human Generations, not them yeasties generation lol.. Jim. ... has ... breweries
          Message 4 of 30 , Aug 2, 2008
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            Sidenote Wal,

            I was speaking in terms of Human Generations, not them yeasties
            generation lol..

            Jim.


            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Re-pitching maybe, but Distilleries have keep their own special yeast
            > strains growing and re-generating for generations.
            >
            > Vino es Veritas,
            > Jim.
            >
            >
            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" waljaco@ wrote:
            > >
            > > That might be fine for a low volume home distiller but for one who
            has
            > > aspirations to be an artisan distiller it is useful to note
            breweries
            > > only re-pitch yeast 10 times.
            > > wal
            >
          • waljaco
            Cooper s Brewery actually keeps their pure strain in a special yeast bank in London! wal
            Message 5 of 30 , Aug 2, 2008
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              Cooper's Brewery actually keeps their pure strain in a special yeast
              bank in London!
              wal
              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
              > <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Re-pitching maybe, but Distilleries have keep their own special yeast
              > > strains growing and re-generating for generations.
              > >
              > > Vino es Veritas,
              > > Jim.
              >
              >
              > The pure strain is propagated and perpetuated without it ever having
              > seen 'active service', so to speak. Yeast must be cloned occasionally
              > before it loses its viability.
              >
              > This cloned yeast becomes the 'bank' or 'mother' yeast, from which they
              > can grow up a working slurry if ever the need arises (tired yeast,
              > mutated yeast, accidental loss e.g. a fire).
              >
              > What you are doing with re-harvested trub yeast is perpetuating
              > a 'tried & proven' yeast, but it will include any mutations (yeast
              > mutates according to environmental stresses). You 'may' find after a
              > time, that the mutant yeast alters the flavour profile, or sometimes
              > severely retards its fermenting capability. That's why commercial
              > outfits limit the number of times they'll use re-harvested yeasts.
              > Conversely, yeast can also mutate into strains with desirable traits
              > and enhanced capabilities. If you ever manage to breed such a beastie,
              > You really need to isolate it and perpetuate/propagate it via rigorous
              > lab methods. That's how some of the famous strains came into being.
              >
              >
              > Slainte!
              > regards Harry
              >
            • mavnkaf
              ... distilled ... ive ... As far as I know the longer you keep dunder in the shed or garage, in the warmth, humidity or cold it all adds to the flavour of the
              Message 6 of 30 , Aug 3, 2008
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                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Allo Mon Ami Geoff,
                >
                > I believe Alex is talking about the Dunder from the trub part of the
                > fermentation with living yeast in it. Not the Dunder from the
                distilled
                > portion (backset). I've been really confused in the past by people
                > talking about Dunder and sometimes referring to both parts. Maybe
                > someone could straighten us out on what Dunder really is - I know
                ive
                > heard it used in both meanings.
                >
                > à Votre Santé Monsieur,
                >
                > Jim.
                >
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206"
                > <jeffrey.burrows@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Alex,
                As far as I know the longer you keep dunder in the shed or garage, in
                the warmth, humidity or cold it all adds to the flavour of the rum
                when you are making the main rum wash. From what I can remember some
                of the guys have had dunder in their sheds well over a year with all
                sorts of growths growing in their and used it with remarkably good
                results.
                Geoff
                >


                Hi Jim, Geoff and others that posted for this subject, even though I
                changed the subject heading slightly. I thing Stuffed things up abit
                (my cut and pasting), but I'll keep going. In fact I will let
                Harry's past words do the talking.

                That's what us Ompa Lumpa's are for,,,, do the work when the da boss
                is away.

                Cheers
                Marc

                Ps. nkaf, Ned Kelly's Air Force;)


                Harry's word on the subject of Dunder and the use.

                =========================================================
                What we really need is a clarification of what is Dunder & what is
                Backset, so we're all on the same page. There's much confusion on
                this naming, hence various sources say different things, particularly
                about what Dunder really is. I go by what it was defined as by the
                original rum makers of the West Indies.

                Backset as I understand it is the fermentation residue, not
                distilled.
                Dunder is the residue of the first distillation, left to clarify
                & 'ripen' via wild bacteria, before next use.

                Therefore Lactobacillus is the predominant bacteria in the grain
                backset, having never been subjected to a boiling after fermentation.
                It is however sometimes introduced deliberately when setting up a
                mash, then when its done the souring job, is killed by boiling. Then
                the mash is cooled & pitched for fermentation.

                Conversely, dunder is boiled & reboiled with each use, destroying
                most (not all) of the bacteria present. But their products (or
                byproducts) are still there. I say 'not all' because there are
                several bacteria that can withstand boiling. These are only destroyed
                by elevated temps as in pressure cooking, or autoclaving.

                Properly recovered, cleared dunder has little acid. That's not to say
                it has none (in fact it's about pH 5.5-6), just that it's not really
                effective in reducing pH to levels below about 5.5

                Lactobacillus doesn't get a chance to predominate in the dunder
                process. Of course a few will get in there, along with all the
                others, but nowhere near like in grain backset.

                Of course my take on what Backset is may be wrong by another's
                definition. If so, please correct me. What's important is that we're
                all talking about the same substances from wherever they appear in
                the process.

                Slainte!
                regards Harry

                :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):

                Harry answers Trid on a question, (I think)

                snip

                > Can you give me a quick reminder of the recommended proportion of
                dunder to
                > low-wines for the spirit run?

                :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):

                It's all personal preference. But as a starter, try 1/3
                dunder, 1/3 feints & 1/3 low wines. Then adjust the dunder/feints
                portion up/down in future runnings according to your tastes.

                What you're doing is using the dunder in place of water. This has
                the two-fold effect of adding concentrated flavours, and reducing
                the still charge alcohol percentage to a safe and easily processable
                level (said you'd see why later).
                Look at it this way. Feints are ~30% abv, low wines ~50-60% abv,
                dunder ~1-10% abv. At the suggested proportions, your combined
                still charge will be ~40-43% abv. That won't easily burn in the
                event of an accident, and low percentage wash processes more readily
                because there are fewer water/ethanol molecular bonds to break
                (science is weird). It's all good for the end result. :)

                Slainte!
                regards Harry
              • jamesonbeam1
                Hey Marc, Thank you for the clarification. But I now still have a problem now with the term Backset the way Harry described it, which is the Fermentation
                Message 7 of 30 , Aug 3, 2008
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                  Hey Marc,

                  Thank you for the clarification.  But I now still have a problem now with the term "Backset" the way Harry described it, which is the "Fermentation Residue".

                  We in the Corn whiskey shine making world, which includes "Sour Mash" consider backset as the reisdue from the distillation - not the fermentation.  Most sources I have read from and the ol' time shiners who i have talked to,  say that backset - or "Sour Mash" in American corn shine makin' (or Dunder in Rum Makin')  is left overs from a distillation.

                  Even Uncle Jesse (the real one - Dave Robison who started his own micro - or nano ;)distillery in California) stated in his Famous Sour mash method:

                  Your first distillation run will be a "sweet" run since you will not have any backset to use for sour mashing. I recommend using the spirits you collect in your first run as feints for the next run. Yes, all of them. Your second run will produce your first batch of sour mash which will be good, but in truth the flavor and consistency will not start to reach their peak until the third or fourth run in my experience.

                  As backset is decribed in the Home Distiller's dictionary (as in our Wiki Info base):

                  Backset

                  From Distillers Wiki

                  Backset (also called thin stillage, or dunder) The liquid left in the still after distillation has completed. Essentially backset is a weak, acidic beer which has been boiled for a number of hours. Backset is used to create sour mash whiskies.

                  Backset is useful as Distillers Dried Grains (DDG) as feed for livestock, and is also useful as fertilizer.
                  From:  http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Uncle_Jesse's_Simple_Sour_Mash_Method

                  http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Backset

                  So Mav, based on what I have read and studied, I would have to classify "Backset" as the residual liquid from a distillation, which would be called "Sour Mash" or "Dunder" depending on what you are making (be it sour mash whiskey or rum - same concepts here).  So from now, on I am going to consider "Dunder" as the "backset" from a distillation of Rum, and "Sour Mash" as the backset from a distillation of Whiskey or Sour Mash Shine.... :):):)

                  Of Course, As Ken Mc. is fond of saying - "This is my opinion and if I am wrong I will be corrected I am sure..".   LOL - no Im not making fun of you Mate.  Im being serious....;)

                  Vino es Veritas,

                  Jim.

                  In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:

                  > Hi Jim, Geoff and others that posted for this subject, even though I
                  > changed the subject heading slightly. I thing Stuffed things up abit
                  > (my cut and pasting), but I'll keep going.  In fact I will let
                  > Harry's past words do the talking. 
                  >
                  > That's what us Ompa Lumpa's are for,,,, do the work when the da boss
                  > is away.
                  >
                  > Cheers
                  > Marc
                  >
                  > Ps. nkaf, Ned Kelly's Air Force;)
                  >
                  >
                  > Harry's word on the subject of Dunder and the use.
                  >
                  > =========================================================
                  > What we really need is a clarification of what is Dunder & what is
                  > Backset, so we're all on the same page. There's much confusion on
                  > this naming, hence various sources say different things, particularly
                  > about what Dunder really is. I go by what it was defined as by the
                  > original rum makers of the West Indies.

                  Backset as I understand it is the fermentation residue, not distilled. 
                  Dunder is the residue of the first distillation, left to clarify 
                  & 'ripen' via wild bacteria, before next use.
                  >
                  > Therefore Lactobacillus is the predominant bacteria in the grain
                  > backset, having never been subjected to a boiling after fermentation.
                  > It is however sometimes introduced deliberately when setting up a
                  > mash, then when its done the souring job, is killed by boiling. Then
                  > the mash is cooled & pitched for fermentation.
                  >
                  > Conversely, dunder is boiled & reboiled with each use, destroying
                  > most (not all) of the bacteria present. But their products (or
                  > byproducts) are still there. I say 'not all' because there are
                  > several bacteria that can withstand boiling. These are only destroyed
                  > by elevated temps as in pressure cooking, or autoclaving.
                  >
                  > Properly recovered, cleared dunder has little acid. That's not to say
                  > it has none (in fact it's about pH 5.5-6), just that it's not really
                  > effective in reducing pH to levels below about 5.5
                  >
                  > Lactobacillus doesn't get a chance to predominate in the dunder
                  > process. Of course a few will get in there, along with all the
                  > others, but nowhere near like in grain backset.
                  >
                  > Of course my take on what Backset is may be wrong by another's
                  > definition. If so, please correct me. What's important is that we're
                  > all talking about the same substances from wherever they appear in
                  > the process.
                  >
                  > Slainte!
                  > regards Harry
                  >
                  > :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):
                  >
                  > Harry answers Trid on a question, (I think)
                  >
                  > snip
                  >
                  > > Can you give me a quick reminder of the recommended proportion of
                  > dunder to
                  > > low-wines for the spirit run?
                  >
                  > :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):
                  >
                  > It's all personal preference. But as a starter, try 1/3
                  > dunder, 1/3 feints & 1/3 low wines. Then adjust the dunder/feints
                  > portion up/down in future runnings according to your tastes.
                  >
                  > What you're doing is using the dunder in place of water. This has
                  > the two-fold effect of adding concentrated flavours, and reducing
                  > the still charge alcohol percentage to a safe and easily processable
                  > level (said you'd see why later).
                  > Look at it this way. Feints are ~30% abv, low wines ~50-60% abv,
                  > dunder ~1-10% abv. At the suggested proportions, your combined
                  > still charge will be ~40-43% abv. That won't easily burn in the
                  > event of an accident, and low percentage wash processes more readily
                  > because there are fewer water/ethanol molecular bonds to break
                  > (science is weird). It's all good for the end result. :)
                  >
                  > Slainte!
                  > regards Harry
                  >
                • jamesonbeam1
                  Sidenote: LOL Marc, Yes Marc, us Ompa Lumpa s (along with all tother members and Riku, Trid and Mason and myself) do help Harry out if hes not here - but this
                  Message 8 of 30 , Aug 3, 2008
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                    Sidenote:

                    LOL Marc,

                    Yes Marc, us Ompa Lumpa's (along with all tother members and Riku, Trid and Mason and myself)  do help Harry out if hes not here - but this aint no chocolate factory and it aint run by Willy Wonka ROTFLMAO.  Have'nt herd that term since I wached the movie about 8 years ago with me kids.  Sill Laughing :)):)):)).

                    Vino es Veritas,

                    Jim.

                    In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:

                    ____snip____

                    > That's what us Ompa Lumpa's are for,,,, do the work when the da boss
                    > is away.
                    >
                    > Cheers
                    > Marc

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hey Marc,
                    >
                    > Thank you for the clarification. But I now still have a problem now
                    > with the term "Backset" the way Harry described it, which is the
                    > "Fermentation Residue".
                    >

                  • rye_junkie1
                    ... Here is my take on the subject as I have been confused on it at times as well. To Me the 2 are very different. I had the understanding that Sour Mashing
                    Message 9 of 30 , Aug 3, 2008
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                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                      <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hey Marc,
                      >
                      > Thank you for the clarification. But I now still have a problem now
                      > with the term "Backset" the way Harry described it, which is the
                      > "Fermentation Residue".
                      >
                      > We in the Corn whiskey shine making world, which includes "Sour Mash"
                      > consider backset as the reisdue from the distillation - not the
                      > fermentation. Most sources I have read from and the ol' time shiners
                      > who i have talked to, say that backset - or "Sour Mash" in American
                      > corn shine makin' (or Dunder in Rum Makin') is left overs from a
                      > distillation.
                      >
                      > Even Uncle Jesse (the real one - Dave Robison who started his own micro
                      > - or nano [;)] distillery in California) stated in his Famous Sour mash
                      > method:
                      >
                      > Your first distillation run will be a "sweet" run since you will not
                      > have any backset <http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Backset> to
                      > use for sour mashing. I recommend using the spirits
                      > <http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Spirits> you collect in your
                      > first run as feints <http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Feints>
                      > for the next run. Yes, all of them. Your second run will produce your
                      > first batch of sour mash which will be good, but in truth the flavor and
                      > consistency will not start to reach their peak until the third or fourth
                      > run in my experience.



                      Here is my take on the subject as I have been confused on it at times
                      as well.
                      To Me the 2 are very different. I had the understanding that "Sour
                      Mashing" was a (2) ingredient process to be authentic, MAYBE. While
                      The Rum usage of Dunder required only 1 ingredient.
                      Both use "Backset" which for me is the left over wash in the Boiler
                      from a strip run . For us Corn Whiskey Makers we simply call it Back
                      set and it is traditionally not aged that I know of. (But for us Hobby
                      guys with all this time on our hands, Why not? New Thread?)
                      For the Rum Makers the Same stuff has been termed "Dunder", And aging
                      seems to be a very important part of the process. I am not sure of
                      the origin of the Term "Dunder" but it could very well have something
                      to do with the aging process.
                      Now to the 2nd ingredient in the "Sour Mash" process. Recycled "Sour"
                      Yeast that is in the "Mash" . I have talked to a few old bootleggers
                      down here and what they term Sour Mash only used the Yeast Trub,
                      Backset was not part of the process.
                      It was also my understanding that "Backset was originally a money
                      saver for the Big Guys and it just happened to make the product better.
                      So my take on the subject is that Rum uses "Dunder" or aged Backset.
                      For Sour Mash Whiskey the Important Ingredient is Trub from the
                      previous ferment. Really they are exact opposites.

                      Mason
                    • jamesonbeam1
                      ... wrote: Here is my take on the subject as I have been confused on it at times ... better. So my take on the subject is that Rum uses Dunder or aged
                      Message 10 of 30 , Aug 3, 2008
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                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...> wrote:

                         Here is my take on the subject as I have been confused on it at times
                        > as well.
                        > To Me the 2 are very different. I had the understanding that "Sour
                        > Mashing" was a (2) ingredient process to be authentic, MAYBE. While
                        > The Rum usage of Dunder required only 1 ingredient.
                        > Both use "Backset" which for me is the left over wash in the Boiler
                        > from a strip run . For us Corn Whiskey Makers we simply call it Back
                        > set and it is traditionally not aged that I know of. (But for us Hobby
                        > guys with all this time on our hands, Why not? New Thread?)
                        > For the Rum Makers the Same stuff has been termed "Dunder", And aging
                        > seems to be a very important part of the process. I am not sure of
                        > the origin of the Term "Dunder" but it could very well have something
                        > to do with the aging process.
                        > Now to the 2nd ingredient in the "Sour Mash" process. Recycled "Sour"
                        > Yeast that is in the "Mash" . I have talked to a few old bootleggers
                        > down here and what they term Sour Mash only used the Yeast Trub,
                        > Backset was not part of the process.
                        > It was also my understanding that "Backset was originally a money
                        > saver for the Big Guys and it just happened to make the product better.

                        So my take on the subject is that Rum uses "Dunder" or aged Backset.
                         For Sour Mash Whiskey the Important Ingredient is Trub from the
                         previous ferment. Really they are exact opposites.
                         
                        > Mason

                        Hi Hi Mason,

                        Your last statement highlited above is also causing me some problems...  You stated:  "For Sour Mash Whiskey the Important Ingredient is Trub from the Previous ferment."  Also,  you talked to some ol' timers who stated  that "Sour Mash only uses the Yeast Trub" - I do not believe this is true. 

                        SideNote: And LOL - you said you talked to some "old bootleggers" - well hell Mason, of course they dont know the difference - they just run the hootch (us Moonshiners make it hehe - they dont:):)  -  just joking again buddy :).

                        Again, Sour Mash Whiskey may be made from re-pitched Trub. But what distinguishes "Sour Mash" from Irish or Scotch Whisk(e)y and others, (this Sour Mash procedure includes both our US Bourbons and Tennessee Wiskeys),  is adding the "Backset" from previous distillations back into to it - commonly called "Sour Mash".

                        Let me quote from Uncle Jesse's Famous Sour Mash Method (Dave's BTW:):):): 

                        To Quote:

                        "This method was originally taken from J.W. Walstad's book Simple Sour Mash to Simple Alcohol Fuel! and has been modified according to my experiences.

                        This method is the most inexpensive I have found for producing Corn Whiskey. It is perfect for beginners because it does not rely on skill for mashing and does not require any cooking which greatly reduces the hassles and expenses.

                        I used this method for years until I mastered the processes involved in creating a quality sour mash whiskey, at which point I moved on to cooked mashes and more advanced efforts.

                        Now to the Definition of "Sour Mash":

                        Sour Mash:

                        From Distillers Wiki

                        Whisky made with backset added during the initial mash. Whiskies using backset include bourbon, corn whiskey and Tennessee whiskey. Backset, also known as backset stillage adds a lot of character to whisky and also promotes consistency across batches.

                        Sour mash whiskies are also fermented using barm from the previous batch.

                        Backset adds acidity to the wort which was historically beneficial for limiting unwanted bacteria. Sour mashing is also a throwback to the economic practices employed by early day moonshiners. Regulations stipulate that a sour mash contain at least 25% backset."

                        Now, Mason - His definition of Backset:

                        Backset:

                        From Distillers Wiki

                        "Backset (also called thin stillage, or dunder) The liquid left in the still after distillation has completed. Essentially backset is a weak, acidic beer which has been boiled for a number of hours. Backset is used to create sour mash whiskies.

                        Backset is useful as Distillers Dried Grains (DDG) as feed for livestock, and is also useful as fertilizer. "

                        I think this is what is confusing all of us here -  is the differentiaton between Dunder, Sour Mash and what is correctly called "Barm" or "Trub" or "Lees".....  The Correct definition of stuff left at the bottom of the primary fermenter after the fermetation has been drained out and distilled.

                        Now the definition of Barm or also called Trub or Lees:

                        Barm:

                        From Distillers Wiki

                        :The yeasty foam that rises to the surface of fermenting malt liquors.

                        Also a commercial leavening agent containing yeast cells; used to raise the dough in making bread and for fermenting beer or whiskey.

                        Term used to describe the yeast residue left in a sour mash after fermentation. Some of this barm is re-used in subsequent mashes as part of the sour mash method.

                        In Australia, barm left over from beer is used to make vegemite, a popular spread used on sandwiches." 

                        So, I am still going to refer to the following terms based on the above and other posts as:

                        Backset:  The leftover solution in a boiler from a distillation.

                        Dunder:  Backset from a Molasses / Sugar based fermentation, but some distillers set it outside to age for a period to induce bacteria and additional flavors.

                        Sour Mash:  Backset from a grain fermentation which has been distilled.

                        Barm / Trub / Lees:  The leftover solids at the bottom of a primary fermenter which contains dead and living yeast.  This may be cultured and stored - or re-pitched for future fermentations.....

                        So, sorry for such a long discussion, but to cut to the chase, In my book - Dunder and Sour Mash are exactly the same thing (not opposites), but Dunder is aged.

                        Vino es Veritas and Regards,

                        Jim.

                        Keep the faith and watch out for them cats hehe.

                         

                         

                      • Harry
                        ... wrote: All this confusion... Jim, I too have been confused in the past simply because the definitions have changed somewhat over a
                        Message 11 of 30 , Aug 3, 2008
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                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                          <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:



                          All this confusion...

                          Jim,

                          I too have been confused in the past simply because the definitions
                          have changed somewhat over a several hundred year timespan. But one
                          thing I have NEVER been confused on is the term DUNDER.

                          DUNDER: Ripened and Clarified Spent Lees from a first distillation,
                          Aged Pot-ale.

                          BACKSET: Similar liquid to dunder BUT UN-Aged.



                          SOUR MASH: ORIGINALLY A MASHING PROCESS NAME, BUT ALSO THE MASH
                          ITSELF.

                          AS A PROCESS:- The process uses backset (spent lees of distillation,
                          the pot-ale) to lower pH and thus control bacteria in a following
                          mash. It has the added benefit of making batch-to-batch mashing (&
                          thus product) consistent in flavour. The process is usually taken to
                          include yeasting using a portion of the Yeast-Cake from the previous
                          fermentation (hence my confusion).

                          AS A NAME: The resulting mash from this process is also called "Sour
                          Mash".


                          It is interesting to note that the process of "sour mashing" today is
                          not the same as that first popularised by Dr. Crow (others before him
                          had also practiced it). It has evolved. Today, Lactobacillis
                          bacteria is deliberately introduced into sweet wort to sour it. Then
                          the bacteria is killed, usually by temperature (heating the wort).
                          Then the resulting sour wort is pH adjusted to 5 or 5.2pH, sometimes
                          with acid, sometimes with backset. Then the treated sour mash is
                          pitched with yeast, sometimes "Jug Yeast" (yeast slurry from a
                          previous fermentation, but more often the pitch is a yeast cultured
                          from a single cell strain grown up in the distillery's laboratory.

                          Most dfistilleries today use backset only because it is 'tradition',
                          not because it is better. Modern chemical analysis and processing
                          makes the older style of sour mashing redundant.

                          There's plenty of experts and bourbon industry people here to refer
                          to about sour mashing...
                          http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2069&page=3


                          The term "DUNDER" has in the past been used (and confused) with the
                          foam of fermentation, the high kreusen. This misuse of the term is
                          usually traced to a local or regional thing rather than general
                          usage. All the old texts (pre 1900) are consistent in that DUNDER is
                          the ripened spent lees or pot-ale from a first distillation.


                          Slainte!
                          regards Harry
                        • Harry
                          Jim, Mason et al, Check this out... Sweet Mash and Sour Mash from 1818 (pre Dr. James Crow s methods) Sweet Mash and Sour Mash from 1818
                          Message 12 of 30 , Aug 3, 2008
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                            Jim, Mason et al,

                            Check this out...

                            Sweet Mash and Sour Mash from 1818 (pre Dr. James Crow's methods)

                            Sweet Mash and Sour Mash from 1818

                            New postby bourbonv on Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:53 pm

                            I have here a transcript of recipes for sweet mash and sour mash methods of distilling from the Catherine Carpenter Family Papers of the Kentucky Historical Society.

                            "Receipt for Distilling Corn Meal Sweet Mash, 1818
                            To a hundred gallon tub put in a bushel and a half of hot water then a half a bushel
                            of meal Stir it well then one bushel of water &amp; then a half bushel of meal;
                            so no untill (sic) you have mashed one bushel and a half of corn meal - Stir it all
                            effectively then sprinkle a double handful of meal over the mash let it stand two
                            hours then pour over the mash 2 gallons of warm water put in a half gallon of malt
                            stir that well into the mash then stir in a half a bushel of Rye or wheat meal. Stir
                            it well for 15 minutes put in another half gallon of malt. Stir it well and very
                            frequently untill (sic) you can bear your hand in the mash up to your wrist then
                            put in three bushels of cold slop or one gallon of good yeast then fill up with cold
                            water. If you use yeast put in the cold water first and then the yeast. If you have
                            neither yeast or Slop put in three peck of Beer from the bottom of a tub."

                            On back of paper -
                            "Receipt for Distilling by a Sour Mash
                            Put into the mash tub Six busheles (sic) of very hot slop then put in one Bushel
                            of corn meal ground pretty course Stir well then sprinkle a little meal over the
                            mash let it stand 5 days that is 3 full days betwist the Day you mash and the day
                            you cool off - on the fifth day put in 3 gallons of warm water then put in one gallon
                            of rye meal and one gallon of malt work it well into the malt and stir for 3 quarters of
                            an hour then fill the tub half full of Luke warm water. Stir it well and with a fine sieve
                            or otherwise Break all the lumps fine then let stand for three hours then fill up the
                            tub with luke warm water.
                            For warm weather - five bushels of slop instead of six let it stand an hour and a half
                            Instead of three hours and cold water instead of warm.


                            [Source:
                            http://www.bourbonenthusiast.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4096 ]

                            Slainte!
                            regards Harry

                          • waljaco
                            Dunder is from a Spanish term. They apparently were the first to distill rum. Using dunder/back-set is also a way to save water. Redundant is related and
                            Message 13 of 30 , Aug 4, 2008
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                              Dunder is from a Spanish term. They apparently were the first to
                              distill rum. Using dunder/back-set is also a way to save water.
                              Redundant is related and refers to a distilling by-product.
                              Re-using some old mash is called back-slopping (I gather)
                              wal
                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                              > <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Hey Marc,
                              > >
                              > > Thank you for the clarification. But I now still have a problem now
                              > > with the term "Backset" the way Harry described it, which is the
                              > > "Fermentation Residue".
                              > >
                              > > We in the Corn whiskey shine making world, which includes "Sour Mash"
                              > > consider backset as the reisdue from the distillation - not the
                              > > fermentation. Most sources I have read from and the ol' time shiners
                              > > who i have talked to, say that backset - or "Sour Mash" in American
                              > > corn shine makin' (or Dunder in Rum Makin') is left overs from a
                              > > distillation.
                              > >
                              > > Even Uncle Jesse (the real one - Dave Robison who started his own
                              micro
                              > > - or nano [;)] distillery in California) stated in his Famous
                              Sour mash
                              > > method:
                              > >
                              > > Your first distillation run will be a "sweet" run since you will not
                              > > have any backset <http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Backset> to
                              > > use for sour mashing. I recommend using the spirits
                              > > <http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Spirits> you collect in your
                              > > first run as feints <http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Feints>
                              > > for the next run. Yes, all of them. Your second run will produce your
                              > > first batch of sour mash which will be good, but in truth the
                              flavor and
                              > > consistency will not start to reach their peak until the third or
                              fourth
                              > > run in my experience.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Here is my take on the subject as I have been confused on it at times
                              > as well.
                              > To Me the 2 are very different. I had the understanding that "Sour
                              > Mashing" was a (2) ingredient process to be authentic, MAYBE. While
                              > The Rum usage of Dunder required only 1 ingredient.
                              > Both use "Backset" which for me is the left over wash in the Boiler
                              > from a strip run . For us Corn Whiskey Makers we simply call it Back
                              > set and it is traditionally not aged that I know of. (But for us Hobby
                              > guys with all this time on our hands, Why not? New Thread?)
                              > For the Rum Makers the Same stuff has been termed "Dunder", And aging
                              > seems to be a very important part of the process. I am not sure of
                              > the origin of the Term "Dunder" but it could very well have something
                              > to do with the aging process.
                              > Now to the 2nd ingredient in the "Sour Mash" process. Recycled "Sour"
                              > Yeast that is in the "Mash" . I have talked to a few old bootleggers
                              > down here and what they term Sour Mash only used the Yeast Trub,
                              > Backset was not part of the process.
                              > It was also my understanding that "Backset was originally a money
                              > saver for the Big Guys and it just happened to make the product better.
                              > So my take on the subject is that Rum uses "Dunder" or aged Backset.
                              > For Sour Mash Whiskey the Important Ingredient is Trub from the
                              > previous ferment. Really they are exact opposites.
                              >
                              > Mason
                              >
                            • jamesonbeam1
                              Thank you Harry and Wal, Greatly appreciate the clarifications on sour mash, dunder etc. Believe now I will stick with my definitions from my posting:
                              Message 14 of 30 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                Thank you Harry and Wal,

                                Greatly appreciate the clarifications on sour mash, dunder etc.

                                Believe now I will stick with my definitions from my posting: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/message/30875

                                "So, I am still going to refer to the following terms based on the above and other posts as:

                                Backset:  The leftover solution in a boiler from a distillation.

                                Dunder:  Backset from a Molasses / Sugar based fermentation, but some distillers set it outside to age for a period to induce bacteria and additional flavors.

                                Sour Mash:  Backset from a grain fermentation which has been distilled.

                                Barm / Trub / Lees:  The leftover solids at the bottom of a primary fermenter which contains dead and living yeast.  This may be cultured and stored - or re-pitched for future fermentations.....

                                So, sorry for such a long discussion, but to cut to the chase, In my book - Dunder and Sour Mash are exactly the same thing (not opposites), but Dunder is aged.

                                Vino es Veritas and Regards,

                                Jim.

                                Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:08 pm

                                "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
                                jamesonbeam1
                                Offline Offline
                                Send Email Send Email


                                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                                > jamesonbeam1@ wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > All this confusion...
                                >
                                > Jim,
                                >
                                > I too have been confused in the past simply because the definitions
                                > have changed somewhat over a several hundred year timespan. But one
                                > thing I have NEVER been confused on is the term DUNDER.
                                >
                                > DUNDER: Ripened and Clarified Spent Lees from a first distillation,
                                > Aged Pot-ale.
                                >
                                > BACKSET: Similar liquid to dunder BUT UN-Aged.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > SOUR MASH: ORIGINALLY A MASHING PROCESS NAME, BUT ALSO THE MASH
                                > ITSELF.
                                >
                                > AS A PROCESS:- The process uses backset (spent lees of distillation,
                                > the pot-ale) to lower pH and thus control bacteria in a following
                                > mash. It has the added benefit of making batch-to-batch mashing (&
                                > thus product) consistent in flavour. The process is usually taken to
                                > include yeasting using a portion of the Yeast-Cake from the previous
                                > fermentation (hence my confusion).
                                >
                                > AS A NAME: The resulting mash from this process is also called "Sour
                                > Mash".
                                >
                                >
                                > It is interesting to note that the process of "sour mashing" today is
                                > not the same as that first popularised by Dr. Crow (others before him
                                > had also practiced it). It has evolved. Today, Lactobacillis
                                > bacteria is deliberately introduced into sweet wort to sour it. Then
                                > the bacteria is killed, usually by temperature (heating the wort).
                                > Then the resulting sour wort is pH adjusted to 5 or 5.2pH, sometimes
                                > with acid, sometimes with backset. Then the treated sour mash is
                                > pitched with yeast, sometimes "Jug Yeast" (yeast slurry from a
                                > previous fermentation, but more often the pitch is a yeast cultured
                                > from a single cell strain grown up in the distillery's laboratory.
                                >
                                > Most dfistilleries today use backset only because it is 'tradition',
                                > not because it is better. Modern chemical analysis and processing
                                > makes the older style of sour mashing redundant.
                                >
                                > There's plenty of experts and bourbon industry people here to refer
                                > to about sour mashing...
                                > http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2069&page=3
                                >
                                >
                                > The term "DUNDER" has in the past been used (and confused) with the
                                > foam of fermentation, the high kreusen. This misuse of the term is
                                > usually traced to a local or regional thing rather than general
                                > usage. All the old texts (pre 1900) are consistent in that DUNDER is
                                > the ripened spent lees or pot-ale from a first distillation.
                                >
                                >
                                > Slainte!
                                > regards Harry
                                >

                              • jamesonbeam1
                                Sidenote: Harry, I believe some of the reasons for my confusion is the fact I m an old wine maker. Your your use of the term Lees in the definitions, along
                                Message 15 of 30 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                  Sidenote:

                                  Harry, I believe some of the reasons for my confusion is the fact I'm an old wine maker.

                                  Your your use of the term "Lees" in the definitions, along with people using the term associated with dunder and sour mash,  as both an additive from the distillation itself and from the leftover fermentation also added to the confusion - ie.:

                                  "DUNDER: Ripened and Clarified Spent Lees from a first distillation,

                                  > Aged Pot-ale.
                                  >
                                  > BACKSET: Similar liquid to dunder BUT UN-Aged.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > SOUR MASH: ORIGINALLY A MASHING PROCESS NAME, BUT ALSO THE MASH
                                  > ITSELF.
                                  >
                                  > AS A PROCESS:- The process uses backset (spent lees of distillation,
                                  > the pot-ale) to lower pH and thus control bacteria in a following
                                  > mash. "

                                  ____snip____

                                  This confusion is mostly due to my background as a wine maker.  In my book, the term "Lees" refers to the leftover white stuff at the bottom of the primary fermenter from a "must".  The wine "must"  is then racked off the "Lees" and put into a secondary fermenter for continued aging before bottling.

                                  "Lees" I consider the same as Trub.  Since we usually  let the fermentation clear and all the dead / dying yeast / solids sink to the bottom - then distill it, and do not include any Lees or Trub -  this is why my confusion continued.

                                  But Thank you so much,  think i have it cleared up now.

                                  Vino es Veritas,

                                  Jim.

                                   

                                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Thank you Harry and Wal,
                                  >
                                  > Greatly appreciate the clarifications on sour mash, dunder etc.

                                  ___snip____


                                • Harry
                                  ... above ... some ... distilled. ... cultured ... opposites), ... Sorry Jim. Can t agree with you. Sour Mash is a PROCESS and also the name of the resulting
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                                    <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Thank you Harry and Wal,
                                    >
                                    > Greatly appreciate the clarifications on sour mash, dunder etc.
                                    >
                                    > Believe now I will stick with my definitions from my posting:
                                    >
                                    > "So, I am still going to refer to the following terms based on the
                                    above
                                    > and other posts as:
                                    >
                                    > Backset: The leftover solution in a boiler from a distillation.
                                    >
                                    > Dunder: Backset from a Molasses / Sugar based fermentation, but
                                    some
                                    > distillers set it outside to age for a period to induce bacteria and
                                    > additional flavors.
                                    >
                                    > Sour Mash: Backset from a grain fermentation which has been
                                    distilled.
                                    >
                                    > Barm / Trub / Lees: The leftover solids at the bottom of a primary
                                    > fermenter which contains dead and living yeast. This may be
                                    cultured
                                    > and stored - or re-pitched for future fermentations.....
                                    >
                                    > So, sorry for such a long discussion, but to cut to the chase, In my
                                    > book - Dunder and Sour Mash are exactly the same thing (not
                                    opposites),
                                    > but Dunder is aged.
                                    >
                                    > Vino es Veritas and Regards,
                                    >
                                    > Jim.



                                    Sorry Jim. Can't agree with you.

                                    Sour Mash is a PROCESS and also the name of the resulting MASH which
                                    is set to fermenting. It is not something left over after distilling.

                                    Dunder is thin stillage, the leftovers after distilling (but much
                                    more, read on).

                                    Wal has found the perfect definition of Dunder from a Jamaican
                                    Planter/distiller ca. 1848


                                    'The Practical Sugar Planter' by Leonard Wray, 1848.
                                    Chapter 10,
                                    On The Distillation of Rum,
                                    pages 390-412.
                                    http://tinyurl.com/5a6g9c

                                    <extract>
                                    Dunder or (redundar) is the fermented wash after it has
                                    undergone distillation, by which it has been deprived of the
                                    alcohol it contained. It is quite amusing to hear the different
                                    opinions as to the nature of dunder, and its use in
                                    distillation. First we had Bryan Edwards, then Porter,
                                    then Ure, then Dubrunfaut, and a host of others, all attributing
                                    to dunder qualities that do not belong to it ; and all
                                    seemingly quite unacquainted with its true properties. It is
                                    not more than a few days ago, that I was asked by a person
                                    why yeast was not used by our sugar planters as a ferment,
                                    instead of dunder ; intimating in very significant terms, that
                                    he considered all the West India distillers a very choice pack
                                    of fools. Now, this person says that he has been for a long
                                    while manager of one of the largest distilleries in the world.

                                    He has written a pamphlet on distillation, with a view to
                                    enlighten the minds of all distillers, and no doubt fancies himself
                                    possessed of all possible knowledge of the subject. And
                                    yet this person, who is a clever man, and no doubt very
                                    competent to instruct English distillers, does not know what
                                    dunder is, or what is its use in the fermentation of wash.

                                    Mr. Whitehouse (of Jamaica, now deceased) is the only
                                    person in whose writings a correct explanation is given :
                                    at least I have met it in no other. But had that gentleman
                                    looked somewhat more closely into ' Liebig's
                                    Organic Chemistry,' he would have seen an instance quite
                                    analogous, mentioned by that great authority, which would
                                    have rendered his (Mr. W.'s) ideas on the subject much
                                    more clear. Speaking of the wash from which brandy is
                                    obtained, and the wort for making beer, Liebig says, "
                                    the principal difference in the preparation of the two
                                    liquids is, that in the fermentation of wort, an aromatic
                                    substance (hops) is added ; and it is certain that its presence
                                    modifies the transformations which take place. Now it is
                                    known that the volatile oil of mustard, and the empyreu-
                                    matic oils, arrest completely the action of the yeast ; and
                                    although the oil of hops does not possess this property,
                                    still it diminishes in a great degree the influence of decomposing
                                    azotised bodies upon the conversion of alcohol into
                                    acetic acid. There is, therefore, reason to believe that
                                    some aromatic substances, when added to fermenting mixtures,
                                    are capable of producing very various modifications
                                    in the nature of the products generated."

                                    The action of dunder, in wash made of molasses, skimmings
                                    and water, has a similar effect to hops or oil of hops in wort.
                                    It is the aromatic substance which modifies the changes or
                                    transformations taking place during fermentation : it increases
                                    the density of the liquor, preventing that violent
                                    fermentation during which so much alcohol is lost; and
                                    keeps the liquor comparatively cool in temperature, and
                                    slow in its motion.

                                    Dunder, to be good, should be light, clear, and slightly
                                    bitter ; it should be quite free from acidity, and is always
                                    best when fresh.

                                    Many causes affect the quality of dunder ; and, very often,
                                    many rounds of the house are injured from the distiller
                                    using dunder that is acid, or that which is heavy, thick, and
                                    viscid. When wash is set up with too large a proportion
                                    of sweets, the fermentation lasts until all the gluten or ferment
                                    has undergone decomposition and become precipitated ;
                                    when it ceases for want of more ferment : the sugar which
                                    still remains in the wash undecomposed is, therefore, incapable
                                    of being resolved into alcohol ; but instead, passes into
                                    the still with the wash, and is discharged in the dunder,
                                    still in the form of sugar. The consequence of which is,
                                    that the dunder, on cooling, speedily commences to ferment,
                                    and works away again, more like wash than dunder ; to the
                                    great alarm of many juvenile distillers, who term it "live
                                    dunder," and very frequently throw it away, fancying it will
                                    injure their wash : whereas such dunder should be immediately
                                    used to set up fresh wash, or be at once redistilled ;
                                    as the fermentation only arises from the undecomposed
                                    sugar being acted on by the renewed activity of the ferment.

                                    Dunder, as it is discharged from the still, runs into dunder
                                    receivers (placed on a lower level than the still), from which it is
                                    pumped up, when cool, into the upper receivers, where it clarifies,
                                    and is then drawn down into the fermenting cisterns, as required.
                                    Well clarified dunder will keep for six months without any
                                    injury.
                                    </extract>

                                    [Note: It is interesting that in those days, the distinction was
                                    made between WASH and WORT.

                                    WASH: The molasses-based fermentation used to make RUM, or the fruit-
                                    based fermentation used to make BRANDY.

                                    WORT: The grain-based fermentation used to make beer, or to charge
                                    the stills to make WHISK(E)Y.]

                                    As you can see, Dunder is very different to Sour Mash. I feel we
                                    need to be on the same page on this in order to help (not confuse)
                                    our members. But if we can't be (same page) we at least need to
                                    acknowledge that there are distinct differences in the two
                                    substances, easily seen in the old texts (source of most of what we
                                    know and practice about this fascinating hobby).



                                    Slainte!
                                    regards Harry
                                  • castillo.alex2008
                                    Hola Harry and Wal After the clarification of the terms here go some questions: 1. How much dunder do you suggest to use for a new fermentation? 2. How do I
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                      Hola Harry and Wal

                                      After the clarification of the terms here go some questions:

                                      1. How much dunder do you suggest to use for a new fermentation?

                                      2. How do I age dunder?

                                      3. How much trub (mixture of live and dead yeast from the botton of a
                                      fermentation) do you suggest for repitching?

                                      4. Any specific amount of dunder for diluting the charge during the
                                      spirits run?

                                      Gracias

                                      Alex
                                    • waljaco
                                      I am just a southern dunderhead. Harry is the Bundy bloke from the Sunshine State where the sugarcane grows. wal
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                        I am just a southern dunderhead. Harry is the Bundy bloke from the
                                        Sunshine State where the sugarcane grows.
                                        wal
                                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                                        <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hola Harry and Wal
                                        >
                                        > After the clarification of the terms here go some questions:
                                        >
                                        > 1. How much dunder do you suggest to use for a new fermentation?
                                        >
                                        > 2. How do I age dunder?
                                        >
                                        > 3. How much trub (mixture of live and dead yeast from the botton of a
                                        > fermentation) do you suggest for repitching?
                                        >
                                        > 4. Any specific amount of dunder for diluting the charge during the
                                        > spirits run?
                                        >
                                        > Gracias
                                        >
                                        > Alex
                                        >
                                      • Harry
                                        ... , castillo.alex2008 ... .........If you go back through my posts here, you will see how I keep dunder in a sealed
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hola Harry and Wal
                                          >
                                          > After the clarification of the terms here go some questions:
                                          >
                                          > 1. How much dunder do you suggest to use for a new fermentation?

                                          ...........I use varying amounts from 25% - 33% by volume

                                          >
                                          > 2. How do I age dunder?

                                          .........If you go back through my posts here, you will see how I keep dunder in a sealed container with a drain part-way off the bottom.  It acts as a separator, to allow removal of CLARIFIED dunder for use.  Anything growing on the surface stays there, and anything solids has settled out below the drain tap.  Of course you need to clean it out once you've removed the clarified dunder, before starting again with your new dunder from your most recent distillation.

                                          >
                                          > 3. How much trub (mixture of live and dead yeast from the botton of a
                                          > fermentation) do you suggest for repitching?

                                          ..........  It's all a matter of what works best for you in your climate and environment.  In the tropics where I live, we find that about 500ml of BOILED trub per 25 litre of wash is adequate for nutrients, and 500ml regenerated trub will usually kickstart fermentation. When I say 'regenerated', I mean that you dilute it with a little warm water and a little of your wash mix and set it aside.  If it starts to show signs of activity after a half-hour or so, then it's alive.  If not, you may need to use a distillers yeast instead.

                                          This subject can fill a book all on its own.  I suggest you research here and in links etc., but do experiments as you go to figure what works for you.  We aren't baking cakes & following specific recipes here (or shouldn't be).  Fermentation and distillation are NOT an exact science.  Too many variables involved.  It is part science, part Art, part luck.  Best we can do is give a few guidelines and 'generalisations' to point you in the right direction so you don't end up making avgas  :)

                                          >
                                          > 4. Any specific amount of dunder for diluting the charge during the
                                          > spirits run?

                                          ................Your spirit still charge should consist of low wines, feints to be recycled, and (water and/or dunder) is used to bring it to a combined 27% a/v.  Read in these groups about diluting the still charge and why.

                                          Slainte!
                                          regards Harry

                                        • jamesonbeam1
                                          Hi Harry, I believe semantics are comming into play again. I have been using sour mash as a noun versus sour mashing (the verb), which means to add previous
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Aug 5, 2008
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                                            Hi Harry,

                                            I believe semantics are comming into play again. I have been using sour
                                            mash as a noun versus sour mashing (the verb), which means to add
                                            previous backset (which I guess should be called the "distilled soured
                                            mash"), back into the sweet mash as in Dr. Crow's process (of Old Crow
                                            Fame), which I am familiar with and have referenced in previous
                                            postings.

                                            As in making Sour Dough breads, one makes a sour dough starter using
                                            wild yeasts to propagate it, then use that as a continuous feed for new
                                            batches and its called a sour dough starter..... This is why I have
                                            referred to sour mash (soured mash) as the left over backset from a
                                            grain distillation. When it is added to the sweet mash, this too is
                                            called sour mash and the act of doing it is called sour mashing....
                                            When I have used that term I usually specify it as "the sour mash from a
                                            previous distillation" or "distilled sour mash". If this is confusing
                                            people, the I will refer to it as "distilled sour mash backset".

                                            But again, to my small mind, Dunder and "distilled sour mash backset"
                                            are the same thing, except one is done with grains and the other is done
                                            with molasses and sometimes aged, open to outside air.

                                            Vino es Veritas,

                                            Jim.


                                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...>
                                            wrote:

                                            > Sorry Jim. Can't agree with you.
                                            >
                                            > Sour Mash is a PROCESS and also the name of the resulting MASH which
                                            > is set to fermenting. It is not something left over after distilling.
                                            >
                                            > Dunder is thin stillage, the leftovers after distilling (but much
                                            > more, read on).
                                            >
                                            > Wal has found the perfect definition of Dunder from a Jamaican
                                            > Planter/distiller ca. 1848
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > 'The Practical Sugar Planter' by Leonard Wray, 1848.
                                            > Chapter 10,
                                            > On The Distillation of Rum,
                                            > pages 390-412.
                                            > http://tinyurl.com/5a6g9c
                                            >
                                            > <extract>
                                            > Dunder or (redundar) is the fermented wash after it has
                                            > undergone distillation, by which it has been deprived of the
                                            > alcohol it contained. It is quite amusing to hear the different
                                            > opinions as to the nature of dunder, and its use in
                                            > distillation. First we had Bryan Edwards, then Porter,
                                            > then Ure, then Dubrunfaut, and a host of others, all attributing
                                            > to dunder qualities that do not belong to it ; and all
                                            > seemingly quite unacquainted with its true properties. It is
                                            > not more than a few days ago, that I was asked by a person
                                            > why yeast was not used by our sugar planters as a ferment,
                                            > instead of dunder ; intimating in very significant terms, that
                                            > he considered all the West India distillers a very choice pack
                                            > of fools. Now, this person says that he has been for a long
                                            > while manager of one of the largest distilleries in the world.
                                            >
                                            > He has written a pamphlet on distillation, with a view to
                                            > enlighten the minds of all distillers, and no doubt fancies himself
                                            > possessed of all possible knowledge of the subject. And
                                            > yet this person, who is a clever man, and no doubt very
                                            > competent to instruct English distillers, does not know what
                                            > dunder is, or what is its use in the fermentation of wash.
                                            >
                                            > Mr. Whitehouse (of Jamaica, now deceased) is the only
                                            > person in whose writings a correct explanation is given :
                                            > at least I have met it in no other. But had that gentleman
                                            > looked somewhat more closely into ' Liebig's
                                            > Organic Chemistry,' he would have seen an instance quite
                                            > analogous, mentioned by that great authority, which would
                                            > have rendered his (Mr. W.'s) ideas on the subject much
                                            > more clear. Speaking of the wash from which brandy is
                                            > obtained, and the wort for making beer, Liebig says, "
                                            > the principal difference in the preparation of the two
                                            > liquids is, that in the fermentation of wort, an aromatic
                                            > substance (hops) is added ; and it is certain that its presence
                                            > modifies the transformations which take place. Now it is
                                            > known that the volatile oil of mustard, and the empyreu-
                                            > matic oils, arrest completely the action of the yeast ; and
                                            > although the oil of hops does not possess this property,
                                            > still it diminishes in a great degree the influence of decomposing
                                            > azotised bodies upon the conversion of alcohol into
                                            > acetic acid. There is, therefore, reason to believe that
                                            > some aromatic substances, when added to fermenting mixtures,
                                            > are capable of producing very various modifications
                                            > in the nature of the products generated."
                                            >
                                            > The action of dunder, in wash made of molasses, skimmings
                                            > and water, has a similar effect to hops or oil of hops in wort.
                                            > It is the aromatic substance which modifies the changes or
                                            > transformations taking place during fermentation : it increases
                                            > the density of the liquor, preventing that violent
                                            > fermentation during which so much alcohol is lost; and
                                            > keeps the liquor comparatively cool in temperature, and
                                            > slow in its motion.
                                            >
                                            > Dunder, to be good, should be light, clear, and slightly
                                            > bitter ; it should be quite free from acidity, and is always
                                            > best when fresh.
                                            >
                                            > Many causes affect the quality of dunder ; and, very often,
                                            > many rounds of the house are injured from the distiller
                                            > using dunder that is acid, or that which is heavy, thick, and
                                            > viscid. When wash is set up with too large a proportion
                                            > of sweets, the fermentation lasts until all the gluten or ferment
                                            > has undergone decomposition and become precipitated ;
                                            > when it ceases for want of more ferment : the sugar which
                                            > still remains in the wash undecomposed is, therefore, incapable
                                            > of being resolved into alcohol ; but instead, passes into
                                            > the still with the wash, and is discharged in the dunder,
                                            > still in the form of sugar. The consequence of which is,
                                            > that the dunder, on cooling, speedily commences to ferment,
                                            > and works away again, more like wash than dunder ; to the
                                            > great alarm of many juvenile distillers, who term it "live
                                            > dunder," and very frequently throw it away, fancying it will
                                            > injure their wash : whereas such dunder should be immediately
                                            > used to set up fresh wash, or be at once redistilled ;
                                            > as the fermentation only arises from the undecomposed
                                            > sugar being acted on by the renewed activity of the ferment.
                                            >
                                            > Dunder, as it is discharged from the still, runs into dunder
                                            > receivers (placed on a lower level than the still), from which it is
                                            > pumped up, when cool, into the upper receivers, where it clarifies,
                                            > and is then drawn down into the fermenting cisterns, as required.
                                            > Well clarified dunder will keep for six months without any
                                            > injury.
                                            > </extract>
                                            >
                                            > [Note: It is interesting that in those days, the distinction was
                                            > made between WASH and WORT.
                                            >
                                            > WASH: The molasses-based fermentation used to make RUM, or the fruit-
                                            > based fermentation used to make BRANDY.
                                            >
                                            > WORT: The grain-based fermentation used to make beer, or to charge
                                            > the stills to make WHISK(E)Y.]
                                            >
                                            > As you can see, Dunder is very different to Sour Mash. I feel we
                                            > need to be on the same page on this in order to help (not confuse)
                                            > our members. But if we can't be (same page) we at least need to
                                            > acknowledge that there are distinct differences in the two
                                            > substances, easily seen in the old texts (source of most of what we
                                            > know and practice about this fascinating hobby).
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Slainte!
                                            > regards Harry
                                            >
                                          • mavnkaf
                                            ... sour ... Hi Jim, I ve got say, I have no exprience in making real sour mashes but I have read some stuff about it like the artical below. Point has done
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Aug 6, 2008
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                                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                                              <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Hi Harry,
                                              >
                                              > I believe semantics are comming into play again. I have been using
                                              sour
                                              > mash as a noun versus sour mashing (the verb), which means to add
                                              > previous backset (which I guess should be called the "distilled soured
                                              > mash"), back into the sweet mash as in Dr. Crow's process (of Old Crow
                                              > Fame), which I am familiar with and have referenced in previous
                                              > postings.
                                              >

                                              Hi Jim, I've got say, I have no exprience in making real sour mashes
                                              but I have read some stuff about it like the artical below. Point has
                                              done alot of this sort of stuff as well. Points words, Just to pick a
                                              sentence.

                                              "Just using backset is only half of the sour mash process. Until you
                                              get some lactic acid going it will never be "Sour"."

                                              Just following the unlce Jess's no cook recipe or simple sour mash corn
                                              flavoured spirit don't add up to the Sour Mash Procedure as far as I
                                              have seen.

                                              --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                              Sour Mash Procedure

                                              by Bill Vaughan
                                              2/4/95

                                              If you're doing a part-mash, part-extract recipe, this applies to your
                                              whole mash. If all-grain, you should probably only do this with part of
                                              your mash unless you like really sour beer. Mash as usual. Do NOT try
                                              to sour the mash before mashing -- it will get sour but will not
                                              convert. Amylase seems not to work at low pH. Take the mash to 170F for
                                              mash-out. At this point it contains no lactobacillus, so we will have
                                              to introduce some. There are four obvious sources: yogurt, sourdough,
                                              and "wild" lacto from grain hulls or the air. You need to cool the mash
                                              to the correct temperature for your lacto source.

                                              1. Yogurt: I use commercial packaged yogurt culture, from your local
                                              health food store. I suppose you could use grocery-store yogurt, but
                                              I've never tried it. Cool the mash to 90 degF, sprinkle the culture on
                                              the surface of the mash and mix it in.

                                              2. Sourdough: Use a commercial packaged sourdough starter, but don't
                                              just sprinkle it on your mash -- it will take too long. Instead, a week
                                              or so early (about when you do your yeast starter -- you DO do a yeast
                                              starter, don't you?) make a 1-pound mash of plain pale malt and start
                                              the sourdough starter in that. By mashing day it should be nice and
                                              stinky. Stir the whole mess into your mash. Starting and fermentation
                                              temp is about 105 degF.

                                              3. Wild lacto, from grain hulls: This is the traditional method. Just
                                              stir a quarter pound of grain, right from the sack, into your mash. I
                                              don't know the traditional temp, but I suspect 90-100 degF will work.

                                              4. Wild lacto, from the air: Cool your mash to about 90 degF, take it
                                              outside, and leave it open to the air for about twenty minutes. Shoo
                                              away the birds. In principle, this can give you a particularly local
                                              lactobacillus strain. I don't do it -- I figure my local strain is just
                                              lactobacillus sanfrancisco anyhow.

                                              In all cases, keep the mash at your fermentation temp until it is
                                              ready. That will take one to two days for yogurt culture, maybe three
                                              days for sourdough. The only time I tried wild lacto, it was like
                                              lightning -- five or six hours. When the stuff is done, it will look
                                              and smell spoiled. There is nothing uglier than a lactic fermentation,
                                              and your marriage may be in jeopardy from the stench. The mash will
                                              look soupy, with husks floating on top and a lot of bubbles. If you can
                                              get it past your nose, you will find that the liquid tastes good. Sour,
                                              but good.

                                              I suppose you can let the mash ferment to completion, but I don't. It
                                              would be terribly sour. I go for my target pH, and then raise the mash
                                              back to 170 degF for sparging. Before re-heating your mash, you should
                                              pull some out -- say a half pound to a pound -- and keep it. That way,
                                              if you like your sourmash beer, you have a ce ready-made for your next
                                              batch. It will keep for a surprisingly long time in the refrigerator,
                                              with a lid on it. Feed it every month or so. You can even make
                                              sourdough bread out of it.

                                              -----------------------------------------------------------------

                                              Cheers
                                              Marc
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