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Re: reharvesting yeast

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  • waljaco
    Lalvin suggests 5 times before they start mutating etc. wal
    Message 1 of 30 , Aug 1, 2008
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      Lalvin suggests 5 times before they start mutating etc.
      wal
      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
      <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hola a todos
      > (Hi everyone)
      >
      > I know that a way to save money and time is using some dunder (trub) as
      > the yeast for a new fermentation instead of repitching new yeast. I
      > think that using one gallon for 25 liters of new fermentation will be
      > fine. What I´d like to know is during how much time I may keep the
      > yeast in the dunder alive. As always your comments are welcome.
      >
      > P.D.
      > Enhorabuena Mason
      > (Congrats Mason)
      >
      > Gracias
      > (Thanks)
      >
      > Alex
      >
    • jamesonbeam1
      Hey Wal, Lalvin may suggest 5 times (probably since they in the buisness of selling new yeast and making money [;)] ), but I have had my batch of yeast going
      Message 2 of 30 , Aug 1, 2008
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        Hey Wal,

        Lalvin may suggest 5 times (probably since they in the buisness of selling new yeast and making money ;)), but I have had my batch of yeast going now for over a year (Lalvin EC-1118) and by keep a starter batch in the refridge and and adding some to my trub every now and then, Its still running fine - over dont know how many fermentations (at least 75 to 100 me thinks:):)....

        Vino es Veritas,

        Jim.


        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
        >
        > Lalvin suggests 5 times before they start mutating etc.
        > wal
        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
        > castillo.alex2008@ wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Hola a todos
        > > (Hi everyone)
        > >
        > > I know that a way to save money and time is using some dunder (trub) as
        > > the yeast for a new fermentation instead of repitching new yeast. I
        > > think that using one gallon for 25 liters of new fermentation will be
        > > fine. What I´d like to know is during how much time I may keep the
        > > yeast in the dunder alive. As always your comments are welcome.
        > >
        > > P.D.
        > > Enhorabuena Mason
        > > (Congrats Mason)
        > >
        > > Gracias
        > > (Thanks)
        > >
        > > Alex
        > >
        >

      • castillo.alex2008
        Hi Jim Where to keep them, in the fridge or just in the cooler part? do you add extra sugar to keep them alive? How many days will yeast from dunder survive
        Message 3 of 30 , Aug 1, 2008
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          Hi Jim

          Where to keep them, in the fridge or just in the cooler part? do you
          add extra sugar to keep them alive? How many days will yeast from
          dunder survive at room temperature (i.e. for you to have time to
          prepare a new batch)?

          Thanks,

          Alex


          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
          <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hey Wal,
          >
          > Lalvin may suggest 5 times (probably since they in the buisness of
          > selling new yeast and making money [;)] ), but I have had my batch
          of
          > yeast going now for over a year (Lalvin EC-1118) and by keep a
          starter
          > batch in the refridge and and adding some to my trub every now and
          then,
          > Its still running fine - over dont know how many fermentations (at
          least
          > 75 to 100 me thinks:):)....
          >
          > Vino es Veritas,
          >
          > Jim.
          >
          >
          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Lalvin suggests 5 times before they start mutating etc.
          > > wal
          > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
          > > castillo.alex2008@ wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hola a todos
          > > > (Hi everyone)
          > > >
          > > > I know that a way to save money and time is using some dunder
          (trub)
          > as
          > > > the yeast for a new fermentation instead of repitching new
          yeast. I
          > > > think that using one gallon for 25 liters of new fermentation
          will
          > be
          > > > fine. What I´d like to know is during how much time I may keep
          > the
          > > > yeast in the dunder alive. As always your comments are welcome.
          > > >
          > > > P.D.
          > > > Enhorabuena Mason
          > > > (Congrats Mason)
          > > >
          > > > Gracias
          > > > (Thanks)
          > > >
          > > > Alex
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • jamesonbeam1
          Hola Alex, Yeast may be kept in a glucose solution at around 40F for quite a while in you refridge and also may be frozen. Again, I must refer you to Dr. M.B.
          Message 4 of 30 , Aug 1, 2008
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            Hola Alex,

            Yeast may be kept in a glucose solution at around 40F for quite a
            while in you refridge and also may be frozen.

            Again, I must refer you to Dr. M.B. Raines Dissertation on Yeast
            Culturing:
            http://maltosefalcons.com/tech/MB_Raines_Guide_to_Yeast_Culturing.php

            Vino es Veritas,
            Jim.

            See Below:

            Methods of Yeast Maintenance

            Maintaining and storing your own yeast stocks is both convenient and
            cost-effective. Three major things must be considered when choosing
            a method of yeast storage. These are yeast strain purity, viability
            and genetic stability. Each of these differ depending on the method
            of preservation. The one most suitable for homebrewers is somewhat
            controversial. Each method has its own advantages and disadvantages
            and depends on personal preference as well as access to specialized
            equipment.

            Media preparation. It is important to point out that the media used
            for long-term storage should be sterile. That means all micro-
            organisms including spores are destroyed. This can be done by
            heating in an autoclave or pressure cooker for 15-30 minutes at 15
            psi. If this equipment is not available the media can be sterilized
            by tyndallization. This is done by boiling the media for 15 minutes
            every other day for a week. Note that this is similar to canning
            where the media is immersed in a pot of boiling water and boiled. At
            least two to three successive boilings are necessary for complete
            sterilization. Propagation media such as that used for starters need
            not be sterilized but has to be sanitized. In this case it should be
            boiled for at least 15 minutes and used within two or three days of
            preparation. Propagation media which is stored for any extensive
            length of time should be sterilized by one of the methods described
            above.

            Master stocks. In general, it is a good idea to keep two stock
            preparations of yeast; one which is referred to as a working stock
            and the other, a master stock. The working stock is for routine use
            such as initiation of yeast propagation. The master stock is used to
            preserve the integrity of the original yeast strain. It is only used
            to replace the working stock or to propagate new master stocks. New
            master stocks are prepared when viability of the current master stock
            may be diminished. When this needs to be done depends on the yeast
            strain and the method of storage.

            Liquid Media. This is a common method of storage for homebrewers and
            has also been referred to as yeast ranching or parallel yeast
            culturing. The best media for this method is wort or wort-containing
            media. Yeast is inoculated into 10 - 20 ml of media and grown until
            it reaches the stationary phase of growth (approximately 3 days) then
            stored in the refrigerator as cold as possible (40 °F). That means
            don't keep it on the door. Stocks should be made in duplicate; one
            to use for brewing, the other as a stock. Some homebrewers prefer to
            build the 10 ml culture upto a larger volume and then dispense it
            into 12 oz. bottles. Storage in culture tubes or small jars also
            works fine. If stored properly, these cultures are stable for up to
            6 months and then must be recultured (preferably from the untouched
            master stock). There are reports that storage in 10% sucrose after
            growth in wort can increase the shelf-life of yeast to as long as 2
            years. In this case, it seems to be necessary to remove all residual
            nutrients or wort since direct addition of sucrose to the stationary
            yeast leads to continued fermentation even at 40 °F. Other bona-fide
            non-fermentable sugars such as lactose or glycerol may be more
            suitable but have yet to be tested for improving yeast's shelf-life.
            Yeast strains vary in their sensitivity to storage in liquid wort.
            In general, only a small percentage of the cells survive storage.
            Therefore, it may be necessary to store in volumes larger than 10 ml
            especially if longer storage periods are used. Culturing in wort has
            been extensively characterized by the National Collection of Yeast
            Cultures (NCYC). They have cultured yeast for periods of up to 60
            years and find that the mutation rate can be high. Of 600 strains
            studied as many as 50% with specific nutritional markers had lost at
            least some of their specific markers after culturing for 10-25 years
            (that's after 20-50 passages). This was for all types of yeast
            strains including brewing yeasts. 10% of the 300 brewing yeast
            strains tested showed changes in flocculation behavior after 10 years
            or 20 passages. Thus storage in liquid media is feasible, but it is
            not the method of choice for long-term storage since it can undergo
            considerable genetic drift from the original stock. It is not clear
            whether minimizing the number of passages will also reduce the
            overall mutation rate.

            Solid media (agar). The standard method for maintaining yeast and
            bacteria is on some type of solid media either in the form of plates
            or slants. Agar is typically used as a solidifying agent and is
            added at a concentration of 1.5-2% (1.5-2.0 grams per 100 ml
            liquid). The base media can be wort or one of the laboratory media
            described above. Agar is insoluble in wort or media and needs to be
            boiled for a few minutes to dissolve. After pouring plates or slants
            it is important that they be sufficiently dried at room temperature
            (2-5 days) before using them. Otherwise condensation may form on the
            sides of the tube or petri plate during storage which can lead to
            contamination especially by mold and fungus.

            Agar Plates- Agar plates are made by pouring a sterile agar
            solution into pre-sterilized glass petri dishes or disposable petri
            dishes. Once solidified and air dried, yeast can be applied to the
            plate. This is done with a sterile inoculating loop. A small amount
            of yeast is added to the plate at one end and then spread across the
            plate. If performed properly, the yeast will be diluted to a point
            where a single yeast cell will be deposited. After growing for 3 - 5
            days that single yeast cell will develop into a small round white
            mound of cells on the plate. This growth is referred to as a colony
            or clone. Colonies originating from single cells are round since
            they grow and expand outwards from the center. They do not have arms
            and legs and cannot move around on the plate. So nice distinct round
            colonies on a plate represent one yeast cell from the original yeast
            and should be free of bacteria and other contaminants. Bacteria and
            other contaminants may exist in other areas of the plate depending on
            the quality of the yeast used. Streaking on plates is classically
            used to purify yeast away from contaminants. In this case, a single
            colony is removed with an sterile inoculating loop and transferred to
            a fresh plate, slant, or tube of liquid media.


            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
            <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Hi Jim
            >
            > Where to keep them, in the fridge or just in the cooler part? do
            you
            > add extra sugar to keep them alive? How many days will yeast from
            > dunder survive at room temperature (i.e. for you to have time to
            > prepare a new batch)?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Alex
            >
            >
            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
            > <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Hey Wal,
            > >
            > > Lalvin may suggest 5 times (probably since they in the buisness of
            > > selling new yeast and making money [;)] ), but I have had my
            batch
            > of
            > > yeast going now for over a year (Lalvin EC-1118) and by keep a
            > starter
            > > batch in the refridge and and adding some to my trub every now
            and
            > then,
            > > Its still running fine - over dont know how many fermentations
            (at
            > least
            > > 75 to 100 me thinks:):)....
            > >
            > > Vino es Veritas,
            > >
            > > Jim.
          • burrows206
            Hi Alex, As far as I know the longer you keep dunder in the shed or garage, in the warmth, humidity or cold it all adds to the flavour of the rum when you are
            Message 5 of 30 , Aug 1, 2008
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              Hi Alex,
              As far as I know the longer you keep dunder in the shed or garage, in
              the warmth, humidity or cold it all adds to the flavour of the rum
              when you are making the main rum wash. From what I can remember some
              of the guys have had dunder in their sheds well over a year with all
              sorts of growths growing in their and used it with remarkably good
              results. I might be wrong but I can't check as I had to do a full
              system recovery and did not have a backup I'm sure some of the guys
              can point you in the direction to the messages I' referring to.
              Geoff

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
              <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi Jim
              >
              > Where to keep them, in the fridge or just in the cooler part? do
              you
              > add extra sugar to keep them alive? How many days will yeast from
              > dunder survive at room temperature (i.e. for you to have time to
              > prepare a new batch)?
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > Alex
              >
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
              > <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Hey Wal,
              > >
              > > Lalvin may suggest 5 times (probably since they in the buisness of
              > > selling new yeast and making money [;)] ), but I have had my
              batch
              > of
              > > yeast going now for over a year (Lalvin EC-1118) and by keep a
              > starter
              > > batch in the refridge and and adding some to my trub every now
              and
              > then,
              > > Its still running fine - over dont know how many fermentations
              (at
              > least
              > > 75 to 100 me thinks:):)....
              > >
              > > Vino es Veritas,
              > >
              > > Jim.
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Lalvin suggests 5 times before they start mutating etc.
              > > > wal
              > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
              > > > castillo.alex2008@ wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Hola a todos
              > > > > (Hi everyone)
              > > > >
              > > > > I know that a way to save money and time is using some dunder
              > (trub)
              > > as
              > > > > the yeast for a new fermentation instead of repitching new
              > yeast. I
              > > > > think that using one gallon for 25 liters of new fermentation
              > will
              > > be
              > > > > fine. What I´d like to know is during how much time I may keep
              > > the
              > > > > yeast in the dunder alive. As always your comments are
              welcome.
              > > > >
              > > > > P.D.
              > > > > Enhorabuena Mason
              > > > > (Congrats Mason)
              > > > >
              > > > > Gracias
              > > > > (Thanks)
              > > > >
              > > > > Alex
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • jamesonbeam1
              Allo Mon Ami Geoff, I believe Alex is talking about the Dunder from the trub part of the fermentation with living yeast in it. Not the Dunder from the
              Message 6 of 30 , Aug 1, 2008
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                Allo Mon Ami Geoff,

                I believe Alex is talking about the Dunder from the trub part of the
                fermentation with living yeast in it. Not the Dunder from the distilled
                portion (backset). I've been really confused in the past by people
                talking about Dunder and sometimes referring to both parts. Maybe
                someone could straighten us out on what Dunder really is - I know ive
                heard it used in both meanings.

                à Votre Santé Monsieur,

                Jim.


                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206"
                <jeffrey.burrows@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Alex,
                > As far as I know the longer you keep dunder in the shed or garage, in
                > the warmth, humidity or cold it all adds to the flavour of the rum
                > when you are making the main rum wash. From what I can remember some
                > of the guys have had dunder in their sheds well over a year with all
                > sorts of growths growing in their and used it with remarkably good
                > results. I might be wrong but I can't check as I had to do a full
                > system recovery and did not have a backup I'm sure some of the guys
                > can point you in the direction to the messages I' referring to.
                > Geoff
              • waljaco
                That might be fine for a low volume home distiller but for one who has aspirations to be an artisan distiller it is useful to note breweries only re-pitch
                Message 7 of 30 , Aug 1, 2008
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                  That might be fine for a low volume home distiller but for one who has
                  aspirations to be an artisan distiller it is useful to note breweries
                  only re-pitch yeast 10 times.
                  wal

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                  <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hey Wal,
                  >
                  > Lalvin may suggest 5 times (probably since they in the buisness of
                  > selling new yeast and making money [;)] ), but I have had my batch of
                  > yeast going now for over a year (Lalvin EC-1118) and by keep a starter
                  > batch in the refridge and and adding some to my trub every now and then,
                  > Its still running fine - over dont know how many fermentations (at least
                  > 75 to 100 me thinks:):)....
                  >
                  > Vino es Veritas,
                  >
                  > Jim.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Lalvin suggests 5 times before they start mutating etc.
                  > > wal
                  > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                  > > castillo.alex2008@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hola a todos
                  > > > (Hi everyone)
                  > > >
                  > > > I know that a way to save money and time is using some dunder (trub)
                  > as
                  > > > the yeast for a new fermentation instead of repitching new yeast. I
                  > > > think that using one gallon for 25 liters of new fermentation will
                  > be
                  > > > fine. What I´d like to know is during how much time I may keep
                  > the
                  > > > yeast in the dunder alive. As always your comments are welcome.
                  > > >
                  > > > P.D.
                  > > > Enhorabuena Mason
                  > > > (Congrats Mason)
                  > > >
                  > > > Gracias
                  > > > (Thanks)
                  > > >
                  > > > Alex
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • burrows206
                  Allo non ami Jim, (hello my friend Jim) I m getting French language overload lately. Aa bit like stillin and trying to learn too much too quickly but
                  Message 8 of 30 , Aug 2, 2008
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                    Allo non ami Jim, (hello my friend Jim)

                    I'm getting French language overload lately. Aa bit like stillin' and
                    trying to learn too much too quickly but learning a bit or even a bit
                    more than I am, would be a good thing for me. "The trouble and strife"
                    (wife) is streets ahead of me on the language front.

                    But anyway, sorry Jim I was reading and replying to email, last night,
                    while imbibing too much of the (Rhum "LAGOA" rhum ambre traditionnel des
                    antilles francaises 40% ) least wise that's what it says on the bottle
                    (I just know I likes the rum). I'm sure I read something in the forum
                    rules about emailing to the forum while under the af-fluance of
                    ink-er-hol brevridge-ease hic-hic. So if it does I'm guilty as charged

                    As to reharvesting yeasties' the way I would do it, is do a few ferments
                    exactly the same way under the same conditions and whichever two produce
                    the best tasting highest % abv's mix those two trubs together. And
                    keep doing this every time with every couple of good tasting high proof
                    washes and keep going ad infinitum With a good logging and fridge
                    storing system you will end up with trub that will produce nice tasting
                    high strength washes that should produce good tasting hooch. A bit like
                    selective breeding of farm animals to get what size/shape you want and
                    with the desired characteristics you want

                    Geoff


                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Allo Mon Ami Geoff,
                    >
                    > I believe Alex is talking about the Dunder from the trub part of the
                    > fermentation with living yeast in it. Not the Dunder from the
                    distilled
                    > portion (backset). I've been really confused in the past by people
                    > talking about Dunder and sometimes referring to both parts. Maybe
                    > someone could straighten us out on what Dunder really is - I know ive
                    > heard it used in both meanings.
                    >
                    > à Votre Santé Monsieur,
                    >
                    > Jim.
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206"
                    > jeffrey.burrows@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Alex,
                    > > As far as I know the longer you keep dunder in the shed or garage,
                    in
                    > > the warmth, humidity or cold it all adds to the flavour of the rum
                    > > when you are making the main rum wash. From what I can remember some
                    > > of the guys have had dunder in their sheds well over a year with all
                    > > sorts of growths growing in their and used it with remarkably good
                    > > results. I might be wrong but I can't check as I had to do a full
                    > > system recovery and did not have a backup I'm sure some of the guys
                    > > can point you in the direction to the messages I' referring to.
                    > > Geoff
                    >
                  • jamesonbeam1
                    Re-pitching maybe, but Distilleries have keep their own special yeast strains growing and re-generating for generations. Vino es Veritas, Jim.
                    Message 9 of 30 , Aug 2, 2008
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                      Re-pitching maybe, but Distilleries have keep their own special yeast
                      strains growing and re-generating for generations.

                      Vino es Veritas,
                      Jim.


                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > That might be fine for a low volume home distiller but for one who has
                      > aspirations to be an artisan distiller it is useful to note breweries
                      > only re-pitch yeast 10 times.
                      > wal
                    • Harry
                      ... The pure strain is propagated and perpetuated without it ever having seen active service , so to speak. Yeast must be cloned occasionally before it loses
                      Message 10 of 30 , Aug 2, 2008
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                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                        <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Re-pitching maybe, but Distilleries have keep their own special yeast
                        > strains growing and re-generating for generations.
                        >
                        > Vino es Veritas,
                        > Jim.


                        The pure strain is propagated and perpetuated without it ever having
                        seen 'active service', so to speak. Yeast must be cloned occasionally
                        before it loses its viability.

                        This cloned yeast becomes the 'bank' or 'mother' yeast, from which they
                        can grow up a working slurry if ever the need arises (tired yeast,
                        mutated yeast, accidental loss e.g. a fire).

                        What you are doing with re-harvested trub yeast is perpetuating
                        a 'tried & proven' yeast, but it will include any mutations (yeast
                        mutates according to environmental stresses). You 'may' find after a
                        time, that the mutant yeast alters the flavour profile, or sometimes
                        severely retards its fermenting capability. That's why commercial
                        outfits limit the number of times they'll use re-harvested yeasts.
                        Conversely, yeast can also mutate into strains with desirable traits
                        and enhanced capabilities. If you ever manage to breed such a beastie,
                        You really need to isolate it and perpetuate/propagate it via rigorous
                        lab methods. That's how some of the famous strains came into being.


                        Slainte!
                        regards Harry
                      • jamesonbeam1
                        Sidenote Wal, I was speaking in terms of Human Generations, not them yeasties generation lol.. Jim. ... has ... breweries
                        Message 11 of 30 , Aug 2, 2008
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                          Sidenote Wal,

                          I was speaking in terms of Human Generations, not them yeasties
                          generation lol..

                          Jim.


                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Re-pitching maybe, but Distilleries have keep their own special yeast
                          > strains growing and re-generating for generations.
                          >
                          > Vino es Veritas,
                          > Jim.
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" waljaco@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > That might be fine for a low volume home distiller but for one who
                          has
                          > > aspirations to be an artisan distiller it is useful to note
                          breweries
                          > > only re-pitch yeast 10 times.
                          > > wal
                          >
                        • waljaco
                          Cooper s Brewery actually keeps their pure strain in a special yeast bank in London! wal
                          Message 12 of 30 , Aug 2, 2008
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                            Cooper's Brewery actually keeps their pure strain in a special yeast
                            bank in London!
                            wal
                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                            > <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Re-pitching maybe, but Distilleries have keep their own special yeast
                            > > strains growing and re-generating for generations.
                            > >
                            > > Vino es Veritas,
                            > > Jim.
                            >
                            >
                            > The pure strain is propagated and perpetuated without it ever having
                            > seen 'active service', so to speak. Yeast must be cloned occasionally
                            > before it loses its viability.
                            >
                            > This cloned yeast becomes the 'bank' or 'mother' yeast, from which they
                            > can grow up a working slurry if ever the need arises (tired yeast,
                            > mutated yeast, accidental loss e.g. a fire).
                            >
                            > What you are doing with re-harvested trub yeast is perpetuating
                            > a 'tried & proven' yeast, but it will include any mutations (yeast
                            > mutates according to environmental stresses). You 'may' find after a
                            > time, that the mutant yeast alters the flavour profile, or sometimes
                            > severely retards its fermenting capability. That's why commercial
                            > outfits limit the number of times they'll use re-harvested yeasts.
                            > Conversely, yeast can also mutate into strains with desirable traits
                            > and enhanced capabilities. If you ever manage to breed such a beastie,
                            > You really need to isolate it and perpetuate/propagate it via rigorous
                            > lab methods. That's how some of the famous strains came into being.
                            >
                            >
                            > Slainte!
                            > regards Harry
                            >
                          • mavnkaf
                            ... distilled ... ive ... As far as I know the longer you keep dunder in the shed or garage, in the warmth, humidity or cold it all adds to the flavour of the
                            Message 13 of 30 , Aug 3, 2008
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                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                              <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Allo Mon Ami Geoff,
                              >
                              > I believe Alex is talking about the Dunder from the trub part of the
                              > fermentation with living yeast in it. Not the Dunder from the
                              distilled
                              > portion (backset). I've been really confused in the past by people
                              > talking about Dunder and sometimes referring to both parts. Maybe
                              > someone could straighten us out on what Dunder really is - I know
                              ive
                              > heard it used in both meanings.
                              >
                              > à Votre Santé Monsieur,
                              >
                              > Jim.
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206"
                              > <jeffrey.burrows@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi Alex,
                              As far as I know the longer you keep dunder in the shed or garage, in
                              the warmth, humidity or cold it all adds to the flavour of the rum
                              when you are making the main rum wash. From what I can remember some
                              of the guys have had dunder in their sheds well over a year with all
                              sorts of growths growing in their and used it with remarkably good
                              results.
                              Geoff
                              >


                              Hi Jim, Geoff and others that posted for this subject, even though I
                              changed the subject heading slightly. I thing Stuffed things up abit
                              (my cut and pasting), but I'll keep going. In fact I will let
                              Harry's past words do the talking.

                              That's what us Ompa Lumpa's are for,,,, do the work when the da boss
                              is away.

                              Cheers
                              Marc

                              Ps. nkaf, Ned Kelly's Air Force;)


                              Harry's word on the subject of Dunder and the use.

                              =========================================================
                              What we really need is a clarification of what is Dunder & what is
                              Backset, so we're all on the same page. There's much confusion on
                              this naming, hence various sources say different things, particularly
                              about what Dunder really is. I go by what it was defined as by the
                              original rum makers of the West Indies.

                              Backset as I understand it is the fermentation residue, not
                              distilled.
                              Dunder is the residue of the first distillation, left to clarify
                              & 'ripen' via wild bacteria, before next use.

                              Therefore Lactobacillus is the predominant bacteria in the grain
                              backset, having never been subjected to a boiling after fermentation.
                              It is however sometimes introduced deliberately when setting up a
                              mash, then when its done the souring job, is killed by boiling. Then
                              the mash is cooled & pitched for fermentation.

                              Conversely, dunder is boiled & reboiled with each use, destroying
                              most (not all) of the bacteria present. But their products (or
                              byproducts) are still there. I say 'not all' because there are
                              several bacteria that can withstand boiling. These are only destroyed
                              by elevated temps as in pressure cooking, or autoclaving.

                              Properly recovered, cleared dunder has little acid. That's not to say
                              it has none (in fact it's about pH 5.5-6), just that it's not really
                              effective in reducing pH to levels below about 5.5

                              Lactobacillus doesn't get a chance to predominate in the dunder
                              process. Of course a few will get in there, along with all the
                              others, but nowhere near like in grain backset.

                              Of course my take on what Backset is may be wrong by another's
                              definition. If so, please correct me. What's important is that we're
                              all talking about the same substances from wherever they appear in
                              the process.

                              Slainte!
                              regards Harry

                              :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):

                              Harry answers Trid on a question, (I think)

                              snip

                              > Can you give me a quick reminder of the recommended proportion of
                              dunder to
                              > low-wines for the spirit run?

                              :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):

                              It's all personal preference. But as a starter, try 1/3
                              dunder, 1/3 feints & 1/3 low wines. Then adjust the dunder/feints
                              portion up/down in future runnings according to your tastes.

                              What you're doing is using the dunder in place of water. This has
                              the two-fold effect of adding concentrated flavours, and reducing
                              the still charge alcohol percentage to a safe and easily processable
                              level (said you'd see why later).
                              Look at it this way. Feints are ~30% abv, low wines ~50-60% abv,
                              dunder ~1-10% abv. At the suggested proportions, your combined
                              still charge will be ~40-43% abv. That won't easily burn in the
                              event of an accident, and low percentage wash processes more readily
                              because there are fewer water/ethanol molecular bonds to break
                              (science is weird). It's all good for the end result. :)

                              Slainte!
                              regards Harry
                            • jamesonbeam1
                              Hey Marc, Thank you for the clarification. But I now still have a problem now with the term Backset the way Harry described it, which is the Fermentation
                              Message 14 of 30 , Aug 3, 2008
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                                Hey Marc,

                                Thank you for the clarification.  But I now still have a problem now with the term "Backset" the way Harry described it, which is the "Fermentation Residue".

                                We in the Corn whiskey shine making world, which includes "Sour Mash" consider backset as the reisdue from the distillation - not the fermentation.  Most sources I have read from and the ol' time shiners who i have talked to,  say that backset - or "Sour Mash" in American corn shine makin' (or Dunder in Rum Makin')  is left overs from a distillation.

                                Even Uncle Jesse (the real one - Dave Robison who started his own micro - or nano ;)distillery in California) stated in his Famous Sour mash method:

                                Your first distillation run will be a "sweet" run since you will not have any backset to use for sour mashing. I recommend using the spirits you collect in your first run as feints for the next run. Yes, all of them. Your second run will produce your first batch of sour mash which will be good, but in truth the flavor and consistency will not start to reach their peak until the third or fourth run in my experience.

                                As backset is decribed in the Home Distiller's dictionary (as in our Wiki Info base):

                                Backset

                                From Distillers Wiki

                                Backset (also called thin stillage, or dunder) The liquid left in the still after distillation has completed. Essentially backset is a weak, acidic beer which has been boiled for a number of hours. Backset is used to create sour mash whiskies.

                                Backset is useful as Distillers Dried Grains (DDG) as feed for livestock, and is also useful as fertilizer.
                                From:  http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Uncle_Jesse's_Simple_Sour_Mash_Method

                                http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Backset

                                So Mav, based on what I have read and studied, I would have to classify "Backset" as the residual liquid from a distillation, which would be called "Sour Mash" or "Dunder" depending on what you are making (be it sour mash whiskey or rum - same concepts here).  So from now, on I am going to consider "Dunder" as the "backset" from a distillation of Rum, and "Sour Mash" as the backset from a distillation of Whiskey or Sour Mash Shine.... :):):)

                                Of Course, As Ken Mc. is fond of saying - "This is my opinion and if I am wrong I will be corrected I am sure..".   LOL - no Im not making fun of you Mate.  Im being serious....;)

                                Vino es Veritas,

                                Jim.

                                In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:

                                > Hi Jim, Geoff and others that posted for this subject, even though I
                                > changed the subject heading slightly. I thing Stuffed things up abit
                                > (my cut and pasting), but I'll keep going.  In fact I will let
                                > Harry's past words do the talking. 
                                >
                                > That's what us Ompa Lumpa's are for,,,, do the work when the da boss
                                > is away.
                                >
                                > Cheers
                                > Marc
                                >
                                > Ps. nkaf, Ned Kelly's Air Force;)
                                >
                                >
                                > Harry's word on the subject of Dunder and the use.
                                >
                                > =========================================================
                                > What we really need is a clarification of what is Dunder & what is
                                > Backset, so we're all on the same page. There's much confusion on
                                > this naming, hence various sources say different things, particularly
                                > about what Dunder really is. I go by what it was defined as by the
                                > original rum makers of the West Indies.

                                Backset as I understand it is the fermentation residue, not distilled. 
                                Dunder is the residue of the first distillation, left to clarify 
                                & 'ripen' via wild bacteria, before next use.
                                >
                                > Therefore Lactobacillus is the predominant bacteria in the grain
                                > backset, having never been subjected to a boiling after fermentation.
                                > It is however sometimes introduced deliberately when setting up a
                                > mash, then when its done the souring job, is killed by boiling. Then
                                > the mash is cooled & pitched for fermentation.
                                >
                                > Conversely, dunder is boiled & reboiled with each use, destroying
                                > most (not all) of the bacteria present. But their products (or
                                > byproducts) are still there. I say 'not all' because there are
                                > several bacteria that can withstand boiling. These are only destroyed
                                > by elevated temps as in pressure cooking, or autoclaving.
                                >
                                > Properly recovered, cleared dunder has little acid. That's not to say
                                > it has none (in fact it's about pH 5.5-6), just that it's not really
                                > effective in reducing pH to levels below about 5.5
                                >
                                > Lactobacillus doesn't get a chance to predominate in the dunder
                                > process. Of course a few will get in there, along with all the
                                > others, but nowhere near like in grain backset.
                                >
                                > Of course my take on what Backset is may be wrong by another's
                                > definition. If so, please correct me. What's important is that we're
                                > all talking about the same substances from wherever they appear in
                                > the process.
                                >
                                > Slainte!
                                > regards Harry
                                >
                                > :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):
                                >
                                > Harry answers Trid on a question, (I think)
                                >
                                > snip
                                >
                                > > Can you give me a quick reminder of the recommended proportion of
                                > dunder to
                                > > low-wines for the spirit run?
                                >
                                > :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):
                                >
                                > It's all personal preference. But as a starter, try 1/3
                                > dunder, 1/3 feints & 1/3 low wines. Then adjust the dunder/feints
                                > portion up/down in future runnings according to your tastes.
                                >
                                > What you're doing is using the dunder in place of water. This has
                                > the two-fold effect of adding concentrated flavours, and reducing
                                > the still charge alcohol percentage to a safe and easily processable
                                > level (said you'd see why later).
                                > Look at it this way. Feints are ~30% abv, low wines ~50-60% abv,
                                > dunder ~1-10% abv. At the suggested proportions, your combined
                                > still charge will be ~40-43% abv. That won't easily burn in the
                                > event of an accident, and low percentage wash processes more readily
                                > because there are fewer water/ethanol molecular bonds to break
                                > (science is weird). It's all good for the end result. :)
                                >
                                > Slainte!
                                > regards Harry
                                >
                              • jamesonbeam1
                                Sidenote: LOL Marc, Yes Marc, us Ompa Lumpa s (along with all tother members and Riku, Trid and Mason and myself) do help Harry out if hes not here - but this
                                Message 15 of 30 , Aug 3, 2008
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                                  Sidenote:

                                  LOL Marc,

                                  Yes Marc, us Ompa Lumpa's (along with all tother members and Riku, Trid and Mason and myself)  do help Harry out if hes not here - but this aint no chocolate factory and it aint run by Willy Wonka ROTFLMAO.  Have'nt herd that term since I wached the movie about 8 years ago with me kids.  Sill Laughing :)):)):)).

                                  Vino es Veritas,

                                  Jim.

                                  In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:

                                  ____snip____

                                  > That's what us Ompa Lumpa's are for,,,, do the work when the da boss
                                  > is away.
                                  >
                                  > Cheers
                                  > Marc

                                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hey Marc,
                                  >
                                  > Thank you for the clarification. But I now still have a problem now
                                  > with the term "Backset" the way Harry described it, which is the
                                  > "Fermentation Residue".
                                  >

                                • rye_junkie1
                                  ... Here is my take on the subject as I have been confused on it at times as well. To Me the 2 are very different. I had the understanding that Sour Mashing
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Aug 3, 2008
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                                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                                    <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hey Marc,
                                    >
                                    > Thank you for the clarification. But I now still have a problem now
                                    > with the term "Backset" the way Harry described it, which is the
                                    > "Fermentation Residue".
                                    >
                                    > We in the Corn whiskey shine making world, which includes "Sour Mash"
                                    > consider backset as the reisdue from the distillation - not the
                                    > fermentation. Most sources I have read from and the ol' time shiners
                                    > who i have talked to, say that backset - or "Sour Mash" in American
                                    > corn shine makin' (or Dunder in Rum Makin') is left overs from a
                                    > distillation.
                                    >
                                    > Even Uncle Jesse (the real one - Dave Robison who started his own micro
                                    > - or nano [;)] distillery in California) stated in his Famous Sour mash
                                    > method:
                                    >
                                    > Your first distillation run will be a "sweet" run since you will not
                                    > have any backset <http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Backset> to
                                    > use for sour mashing. I recommend using the spirits
                                    > <http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Spirits> you collect in your
                                    > first run as feints <http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Feints>
                                    > for the next run. Yes, all of them. Your second run will produce your
                                    > first batch of sour mash which will be good, but in truth the flavor and
                                    > consistency will not start to reach their peak until the third or fourth
                                    > run in my experience.



                                    Here is my take on the subject as I have been confused on it at times
                                    as well.
                                    To Me the 2 are very different. I had the understanding that "Sour
                                    Mashing" was a (2) ingredient process to be authentic, MAYBE. While
                                    The Rum usage of Dunder required only 1 ingredient.
                                    Both use "Backset" which for me is the left over wash in the Boiler
                                    from a strip run . For us Corn Whiskey Makers we simply call it Back
                                    set and it is traditionally not aged that I know of. (But for us Hobby
                                    guys with all this time on our hands, Why not? New Thread?)
                                    For the Rum Makers the Same stuff has been termed "Dunder", And aging
                                    seems to be a very important part of the process. I am not sure of
                                    the origin of the Term "Dunder" but it could very well have something
                                    to do with the aging process.
                                    Now to the 2nd ingredient in the "Sour Mash" process. Recycled "Sour"
                                    Yeast that is in the "Mash" . I have talked to a few old bootleggers
                                    down here and what they term Sour Mash only used the Yeast Trub,
                                    Backset was not part of the process.
                                    It was also my understanding that "Backset was originally a money
                                    saver for the Big Guys and it just happened to make the product better.
                                    So my take on the subject is that Rum uses "Dunder" or aged Backset.
                                    For Sour Mash Whiskey the Important Ingredient is Trub from the
                                    previous ferment. Really they are exact opposites.

                                    Mason
                                  • jamesonbeam1
                                    ... wrote: Here is my take on the subject as I have been confused on it at times ... better. So my take on the subject is that Rum uses Dunder or aged
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Aug 3, 2008
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                                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...> wrote:

                                       Here is my take on the subject as I have been confused on it at times
                                      > as well.
                                      > To Me the 2 are very different. I had the understanding that "Sour
                                      > Mashing" was a (2) ingredient process to be authentic, MAYBE. While
                                      > The Rum usage of Dunder required only 1 ingredient.
                                      > Both use "Backset" which for me is the left over wash in the Boiler
                                      > from a strip run . For us Corn Whiskey Makers we simply call it Back
                                      > set and it is traditionally not aged that I know of. (But for us Hobby
                                      > guys with all this time on our hands, Why not? New Thread?)
                                      > For the Rum Makers the Same stuff has been termed "Dunder", And aging
                                      > seems to be a very important part of the process. I am not sure of
                                      > the origin of the Term "Dunder" but it could very well have something
                                      > to do with the aging process.
                                      > Now to the 2nd ingredient in the "Sour Mash" process. Recycled "Sour"
                                      > Yeast that is in the "Mash" . I have talked to a few old bootleggers
                                      > down here and what they term Sour Mash only used the Yeast Trub,
                                      > Backset was not part of the process.
                                      > It was also my understanding that "Backset was originally a money
                                      > saver for the Big Guys and it just happened to make the product better.

                                      So my take on the subject is that Rum uses "Dunder" or aged Backset.
                                       For Sour Mash Whiskey the Important Ingredient is Trub from the
                                       previous ferment. Really they are exact opposites.
                                       
                                      > Mason

                                      Hi Hi Mason,

                                      Your last statement highlited above is also causing me some problems...  You stated:  "For Sour Mash Whiskey the Important Ingredient is Trub from the Previous ferment."  Also,  you talked to some ol' timers who stated  that "Sour Mash only uses the Yeast Trub" - I do not believe this is true. 

                                      SideNote: And LOL - you said you talked to some "old bootleggers" - well hell Mason, of course they dont know the difference - they just run the hootch (us Moonshiners make it hehe - they dont:):)  -  just joking again buddy :).

                                      Again, Sour Mash Whiskey may be made from re-pitched Trub. But what distinguishes "Sour Mash" from Irish or Scotch Whisk(e)y and others, (this Sour Mash procedure includes both our US Bourbons and Tennessee Wiskeys),  is adding the "Backset" from previous distillations back into to it - commonly called "Sour Mash".

                                      Let me quote from Uncle Jesse's Famous Sour Mash Method (Dave's BTW:):):): 

                                      To Quote:

                                      "This method was originally taken from J.W. Walstad's book Simple Sour Mash to Simple Alcohol Fuel! and has been modified according to my experiences.

                                      This method is the most inexpensive I have found for producing Corn Whiskey. It is perfect for beginners because it does not rely on skill for mashing and does not require any cooking which greatly reduces the hassles and expenses.

                                      I used this method for years until I mastered the processes involved in creating a quality sour mash whiskey, at which point I moved on to cooked mashes and more advanced efforts.

                                      Now to the Definition of "Sour Mash":

                                      Sour Mash:

                                      From Distillers Wiki

                                      Whisky made with backset added during the initial mash. Whiskies using backset include bourbon, corn whiskey and Tennessee whiskey. Backset, also known as backset stillage adds a lot of character to whisky and also promotes consistency across batches.

                                      Sour mash whiskies are also fermented using barm from the previous batch.

                                      Backset adds acidity to the wort which was historically beneficial for limiting unwanted bacteria. Sour mashing is also a throwback to the economic practices employed by early day moonshiners. Regulations stipulate that a sour mash contain at least 25% backset."

                                      Now, Mason - His definition of Backset:

                                      Backset:

                                      From Distillers Wiki

                                      "Backset (also called thin stillage, or dunder) The liquid left in the still after distillation has completed. Essentially backset is a weak, acidic beer which has been boiled for a number of hours. Backset is used to create sour mash whiskies.

                                      Backset is useful as Distillers Dried Grains (DDG) as feed for livestock, and is also useful as fertilizer. "

                                      I think this is what is confusing all of us here -  is the differentiaton between Dunder, Sour Mash and what is correctly called "Barm" or "Trub" or "Lees".....  The Correct definition of stuff left at the bottom of the primary fermenter after the fermetation has been drained out and distilled.

                                      Now the definition of Barm or also called Trub or Lees:

                                      Barm:

                                      From Distillers Wiki

                                      :The yeasty foam that rises to the surface of fermenting malt liquors.

                                      Also a commercial leavening agent containing yeast cells; used to raise the dough in making bread and for fermenting beer or whiskey.

                                      Term used to describe the yeast residue left in a sour mash after fermentation. Some of this barm is re-used in subsequent mashes as part of the sour mash method.

                                      In Australia, barm left over from beer is used to make vegemite, a popular spread used on sandwiches." 

                                      So, I am still going to refer to the following terms based on the above and other posts as:

                                      Backset:  The leftover solution in a boiler from a distillation.

                                      Dunder:  Backset from a Molasses / Sugar based fermentation, but some distillers set it outside to age for a period to induce bacteria and additional flavors.

                                      Sour Mash:  Backset from a grain fermentation which has been distilled.

                                      Barm / Trub / Lees:  The leftover solids at the bottom of a primary fermenter which contains dead and living yeast.  This may be cultured and stored - or re-pitched for future fermentations.....

                                      So, sorry for such a long discussion, but to cut to the chase, In my book - Dunder and Sour Mash are exactly the same thing (not opposites), but Dunder is aged.

                                      Vino es Veritas and Regards,

                                      Jim.

                                      Keep the faith and watch out for them cats hehe.

                                       

                                       

                                    • Harry
                                      ... wrote: All this confusion... Jim, I too have been confused in the past simply because the definitions have changed somewhat over a
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Aug 3, 2008
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                                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                                        <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:



                                        All this confusion...

                                        Jim,

                                        I too have been confused in the past simply because the definitions
                                        have changed somewhat over a several hundred year timespan. But one
                                        thing I have NEVER been confused on is the term DUNDER.

                                        DUNDER: Ripened and Clarified Spent Lees from a first distillation,
                                        Aged Pot-ale.

                                        BACKSET: Similar liquid to dunder BUT UN-Aged.



                                        SOUR MASH: ORIGINALLY A MASHING PROCESS NAME, BUT ALSO THE MASH
                                        ITSELF.

                                        AS A PROCESS:- The process uses backset (spent lees of distillation,
                                        the pot-ale) to lower pH and thus control bacteria in a following
                                        mash. It has the added benefit of making batch-to-batch mashing (&
                                        thus product) consistent in flavour. The process is usually taken to
                                        include yeasting using a portion of the Yeast-Cake from the previous
                                        fermentation (hence my confusion).

                                        AS A NAME: The resulting mash from this process is also called "Sour
                                        Mash".


                                        It is interesting to note that the process of "sour mashing" today is
                                        not the same as that first popularised by Dr. Crow (others before him
                                        had also practiced it). It has evolved. Today, Lactobacillis
                                        bacteria is deliberately introduced into sweet wort to sour it. Then
                                        the bacteria is killed, usually by temperature (heating the wort).
                                        Then the resulting sour wort is pH adjusted to 5 or 5.2pH, sometimes
                                        with acid, sometimes with backset. Then the treated sour mash is
                                        pitched with yeast, sometimes "Jug Yeast" (yeast slurry from a
                                        previous fermentation, but more often the pitch is a yeast cultured
                                        from a single cell strain grown up in the distillery's laboratory.

                                        Most dfistilleries today use backset only because it is 'tradition',
                                        not because it is better. Modern chemical analysis and processing
                                        makes the older style of sour mashing redundant.

                                        There's plenty of experts and bourbon industry people here to refer
                                        to about sour mashing...
                                        http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2069&page=3


                                        The term "DUNDER" has in the past been used (and confused) with the
                                        foam of fermentation, the high kreusen. This misuse of the term is
                                        usually traced to a local or regional thing rather than general
                                        usage. All the old texts (pre 1900) are consistent in that DUNDER is
                                        the ripened spent lees or pot-ale from a first distillation.


                                        Slainte!
                                        regards Harry
                                      • Harry
                                        Jim, Mason et al, Check this out... Sweet Mash and Sour Mash from 1818 (pre Dr. James Crow s methods) Sweet Mash and Sour Mash from 1818
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Aug 3, 2008
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                                          Jim, Mason et al,

                                          Check this out...

                                          Sweet Mash and Sour Mash from 1818 (pre Dr. James Crow's methods)

                                          Sweet Mash and Sour Mash from 1818

                                          New postby bourbonv on Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:53 pm

                                          I have here a transcript of recipes for sweet mash and sour mash methods of distilling from the Catherine Carpenter Family Papers of the Kentucky Historical Society.

                                          "Receipt for Distilling Corn Meal Sweet Mash, 1818
                                          To a hundred gallon tub put in a bushel and a half of hot water then a half a bushel
                                          of meal Stir it well then one bushel of water &amp; then a half bushel of meal;
                                          so no untill (sic) you have mashed one bushel and a half of corn meal - Stir it all
                                          effectively then sprinkle a double handful of meal over the mash let it stand two
                                          hours then pour over the mash 2 gallons of warm water put in a half gallon of malt
                                          stir that well into the mash then stir in a half a bushel of Rye or wheat meal. Stir
                                          it well for 15 minutes put in another half gallon of malt. Stir it well and very
                                          frequently untill (sic) you can bear your hand in the mash up to your wrist then
                                          put in three bushels of cold slop or one gallon of good yeast then fill up with cold
                                          water. If you use yeast put in the cold water first and then the yeast. If you have
                                          neither yeast or Slop put in three peck of Beer from the bottom of a tub."

                                          On back of paper -
                                          "Receipt for Distilling by a Sour Mash
                                          Put into the mash tub Six busheles (sic) of very hot slop then put in one Bushel
                                          of corn meal ground pretty course Stir well then sprinkle a little meal over the
                                          mash let it stand 5 days that is 3 full days betwist the Day you mash and the day
                                          you cool off - on the fifth day put in 3 gallons of warm water then put in one gallon
                                          of rye meal and one gallon of malt work it well into the malt and stir for 3 quarters of
                                          an hour then fill the tub half full of Luke warm water. Stir it well and with a fine sieve
                                          or otherwise Break all the lumps fine then let stand for three hours then fill up the
                                          tub with luke warm water.
                                          For warm weather - five bushels of slop instead of six let it stand an hour and a half
                                          Instead of three hours and cold water instead of warm.


                                          [Source:
                                          http://www.bourbonenthusiast.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4096 ]

                                          Slainte!
                                          regards Harry

                                        • waljaco
                                          Dunder is from a Spanish term. They apparently were the first to distill rum. Using dunder/back-set is also a way to save water. Redundant is related and
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                            Dunder is from a Spanish term. They apparently were the first to
                                            distill rum. Using dunder/back-set is also a way to save water.
                                            Redundant is related and refers to a distilling by-product.
                                            Re-using some old mash is called back-slopping (I gather)
                                            wal
                                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie1" <rye_junkie@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                                            > <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Hey Marc,
                                            > >
                                            > > Thank you for the clarification. But I now still have a problem now
                                            > > with the term "Backset" the way Harry described it, which is the
                                            > > "Fermentation Residue".
                                            > >
                                            > > We in the Corn whiskey shine making world, which includes "Sour Mash"
                                            > > consider backset as the reisdue from the distillation - not the
                                            > > fermentation. Most sources I have read from and the ol' time shiners
                                            > > who i have talked to, say that backset - or "Sour Mash" in American
                                            > > corn shine makin' (or Dunder in Rum Makin') is left overs from a
                                            > > distillation.
                                            > >
                                            > > Even Uncle Jesse (the real one - Dave Robison who started his own
                                            micro
                                            > > - or nano [;)] distillery in California) stated in his Famous
                                            Sour mash
                                            > > method:
                                            > >
                                            > > Your first distillation run will be a "sweet" run since you will not
                                            > > have any backset <http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Backset> to
                                            > > use for sour mashing. I recommend using the spirits
                                            > > <http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Spirits> you collect in your
                                            > > first run as feints <http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Feints>
                                            > > for the next run. Yes, all of them. Your second run will produce your
                                            > > first batch of sour mash which will be good, but in truth the
                                            flavor and
                                            > > consistency will not start to reach their peak until the third or
                                            fourth
                                            > > run in my experience.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Here is my take on the subject as I have been confused on it at times
                                            > as well.
                                            > To Me the 2 are very different. I had the understanding that "Sour
                                            > Mashing" was a (2) ingredient process to be authentic, MAYBE. While
                                            > The Rum usage of Dunder required only 1 ingredient.
                                            > Both use "Backset" which for me is the left over wash in the Boiler
                                            > from a strip run . For us Corn Whiskey Makers we simply call it Back
                                            > set and it is traditionally not aged that I know of. (But for us Hobby
                                            > guys with all this time on our hands, Why not? New Thread?)
                                            > For the Rum Makers the Same stuff has been termed "Dunder", And aging
                                            > seems to be a very important part of the process. I am not sure of
                                            > the origin of the Term "Dunder" but it could very well have something
                                            > to do with the aging process.
                                            > Now to the 2nd ingredient in the "Sour Mash" process. Recycled "Sour"
                                            > Yeast that is in the "Mash" . I have talked to a few old bootleggers
                                            > down here and what they term Sour Mash only used the Yeast Trub,
                                            > Backset was not part of the process.
                                            > It was also my understanding that "Backset was originally a money
                                            > saver for the Big Guys and it just happened to make the product better.
                                            > So my take on the subject is that Rum uses "Dunder" or aged Backset.
                                            > For Sour Mash Whiskey the Important Ingredient is Trub from the
                                            > previous ferment. Really they are exact opposites.
                                            >
                                            > Mason
                                            >
                                          • jamesonbeam1
                                            Thank you Harry and Wal, Greatly appreciate the clarifications on sour mash, dunder etc. Believe now I will stick with my definitions from my posting:
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                              Thank you Harry and Wal,

                                              Greatly appreciate the clarifications on sour mash, dunder etc.

                                              Believe now I will stick with my definitions from my posting: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/message/30875

                                              "So, I am still going to refer to the following terms based on the above and other posts as:

                                              Backset:  The leftover solution in a boiler from a distillation.

                                              Dunder:  Backset from a Molasses / Sugar based fermentation, but some distillers set it outside to age for a period to induce bacteria and additional flavors.

                                              Sour Mash:  Backset from a grain fermentation which has been distilled.

                                              Barm / Trub / Lees:  The leftover solids at the bottom of a primary fermenter which contains dead and living yeast.  This may be cultured and stored - or re-pitched for future fermentations.....

                                              So, sorry for such a long discussion, but to cut to the chase, In my book - Dunder and Sour Mash are exactly the same thing (not opposites), but Dunder is aged.

                                              Vino es Veritas and Regards,

                                              Jim.

                                              Sun Aug 3, 2008 2:08 pm

                                              "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...>
                                              jamesonbeam1
                                              Offline Offline
                                              Send Email Send Email


                                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                                              > jamesonbeam1@ wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > All this confusion...
                                              >
                                              > Jim,
                                              >
                                              > I too have been confused in the past simply because the definitions
                                              > have changed somewhat over a several hundred year timespan. But one
                                              > thing I have NEVER been confused on is the term DUNDER.
                                              >
                                              > DUNDER: Ripened and Clarified Spent Lees from a first distillation,
                                              > Aged Pot-ale.
                                              >
                                              > BACKSET: Similar liquid to dunder BUT UN-Aged.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > SOUR MASH: ORIGINALLY A MASHING PROCESS NAME, BUT ALSO THE MASH
                                              > ITSELF.
                                              >
                                              > AS A PROCESS:- The process uses backset (spent lees of distillation,
                                              > the pot-ale) to lower pH and thus control bacteria in a following
                                              > mash. It has the added benefit of making batch-to-batch mashing (&
                                              > thus product) consistent in flavour. The process is usually taken to
                                              > include yeasting using a portion of the Yeast-Cake from the previous
                                              > fermentation (hence my confusion).
                                              >
                                              > AS A NAME: The resulting mash from this process is also called "Sour
                                              > Mash".
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > It is interesting to note that the process of "sour mashing" today is
                                              > not the same as that first popularised by Dr. Crow (others before him
                                              > had also practiced it). It has evolved. Today, Lactobacillis
                                              > bacteria is deliberately introduced into sweet wort to sour it. Then
                                              > the bacteria is killed, usually by temperature (heating the wort).
                                              > Then the resulting sour wort is pH adjusted to 5 or 5.2pH, sometimes
                                              > with acid, sometimes with backset. Then the treated sour mash is
                                              > pitched with yeast, sometimes "Jug Yeast" (yeast slurry from a
                                              > previous fermentation, but more often the pitch is a yeast cultured
                                              > from a single cell strain grown up in the distillery's laboratory.
                                              >
                                              > Most dfistilleries today use backset only because it is 'tradition',
                                              > not because it is better. Modern chemical analysis and processing
                                              > makes the older style of sour mashing redundant.
                                              >
                                              > There's plenty of experts and bourbon industry people here to refer
                                              > to about sour mashing...
                                              > http://www.straightbourbon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2069&page=3
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > The term "DUNDER" has in the past been used (and confused) with the
                                              > foam of fermentation, the high kreusen. This misuse of the term is
                                              > usually traced to a local or regional thing rather than general
                                              > usage. All the old texts (pre 1900) are consistent in that DUNDER is
                                              > the ripened spent lees or pot-ale from a first distillation.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Slainte!
                                              > regards Harry
                                              >

                                            • jamesonbeam1
                                              Sidenote: Harry, I believe some of the reasons for my confusion is the fact I m an old wine maker. Your your use of the term Lees in the definitions, along
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                                Sidenote:

                                                Harry, I believe some of the reasons for my confusion is the fact I'm an old wine maker.

                                                Your your use of the term "Lees" in the definitions, along with people using the term associated with dunder and sour mash,  as both an additive from the distillation itself and from the leftover fermentation also added to the confusion - ie.:

                                                "DUNDER: Ripened and Clarified Spent Lees from a first distillation,

                                                > Aged Pot-ale.
                                                >
                                                > BACKSET: Similar liquid to dunder BUT UN-Aged.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > SOUR MASH: ORIGINALLY A MASHING PROCESS NAME, BUT ALSO THE MASH
                                                > ITSELF.
                                                >
                                                > AS A PROCESS:- The process uses backset (spent lees of distillation,
                                                > the pot-ale) to lower pH and thus control bacteria in a following
                                                > mash. "

                                                ____snip____

                                                This confusion is mostly due to my background as a wine maker.  In my book, the term "Lees" refers to the leftover white stuff at the bottom of the primary fermenter from a "must".  The wine "must"  is then racked off the "Lees" and put into a secondary fermenter for continued aging before bottling.

                                                "Lees" I consider the same as Trub.  Since we usually  let the fermentation clear and all the dead / dying yeast / solids sink to the bottom - then distill it, and do not include any Lees or Trub -  this is why my confusion continued.

                                                But Thank you so much,  think i have it cleared up now.

                                                Vino es Veritas,

                                                Jim.

                                                 

                                                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1" <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Thank you Harry and Wal,
                                                >
                                                > Greatly appreciate the clarifications on sour mash, dunder etc.

                                                ___snip____


                                              • Harry
                                                ... above ... some ... distilled. ... cultured ... opposites), ... Sorry Jim. Can t agree with you. Sour Mash is a PROCESS and also the name of the resulting
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                                                  <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Thank you Harry and Wal,
                                                  >
                                                  > Greatly appreciate the clarifications on sour mash, dunder etc.
                                                  >
                                                  > Believe now I will stick with my definitions from my posting:
                                                  >
                                                  > "So, I am still going to refer to the following terms based on the
                                                  above
                                                  > and other posts as:
                                                  >
                                                  > Backset: The leftover solution in a boiler from a distillation.
                                                  >
                                                  > Dunder: Backset from a Molasses / Sugar based fermentation, but
                                                  some
                                                  > distillers set it outside to age for a period to induce bacteria and
                                                  > additional flavors.
                                                  >
                                                  > Sour Mash: Backset from a grain fermentation which has been
                                                  distilled.
                                                  >
                                                  > Barm / Trub / Lees: The leftover solids at the bottom of a primary
                                                  > fermenter which contains dead and living yeast. This may be
                                                  cultured
                                                  > and stored - or re-pitched for future fermentations.....
                                                  >
                                                  > So, sorry for such a long discussion, but to cut to the chase, In my
                                                  > book - Dunder and Sour Mash are exactly the same thing (not
                                                  opposites),
                                                  > but Dunder is aged.
                                                  >
                                                  > Vino es Veritas and Regards,
                                                  >
                                                  > Jim.



                                                  Sorry Jim. Can't agree with you.

                                                  Sour Mash is a PROCESS and also the name of the resulting MASH which
                                                  is set to fermenting. It is not something left over after distilling.

                                                  Dunder is thin stillage, the leftovers after distilling (but much
                                                  more, read on).

                                                  Wal has found the perfect definition of Dunder from a Jamaican
                                                  Planter/distiller ca. 1848


                                                  'The Practical Sugar Planter' by Leonard Wray, 1848.
                                                  Chapter 10,
                                                  On The Distillation of Rum,
                                                  pages 390-412.
                                                  http://tinyurl.com/5a6g9c

                                                  <extract>
                                                  Dunder or (redundar) is the fermented wash after it has
                                                  undergone distillation, by which it has been deprived of the
                                                  alcohol it contained. It is quite amusing to hear the different
                                                  opinions as to the nature of dunder, and its use in
                                                  distillation. First we had Bryan Edwards, then Porter,
                                                  then Ure, then Dubrunfaut, and a host of others, all attributing
                                                  to dunder qualities that do not belong to it ; and all
                                                  seemingly quite unacquainted with its true properties. It is
                                                  not more than a few days ago, that I was asked by a person
                                                  why yeast was not used by our sugar planters as a ferment,
                                                  instead of dunder ; intimating in very significant terms, that
                                                  he considered all the West India distillers a very choice pack
                                                  of fools. Now, this person says that he has been for a long
                                                  while manager of one of the largest distilleries in the world.

                                                  He has written a pamphlet on distillation, with a view to
                                                  enlighten the minds of all distillers, and no doubt fancies himself
                                                  possessed of all possible knowledge of the subject. And
                                                  yet this person, who is a clever man, and no doubt very
                                                  competent to instruct English distillers, does not know what
                                                  dunder is, or what is its use in the fermentation of wash.

                                                  Mr. Whitehouse (of Jamaica, now deceased) is the only
                                                  person in whose writings a correct explanation is given :
                                                  at least I have met it in no other. But had that gentleman
                                                  looked somewhat more closely into ' Liebig's
                                                  Organic Chemistry,' he would have seen an instance quite
                                                  analogous, mentioned by that great authority, which would
                                                  have rendered his (Mr. W.'s) ideas on the subject much
                                                  more clear. Speaking of the wash from which brandy is
                                                  obtained, and the wort for making beer, Liebig says, "
                                                  the principal difference in the preparation of the two
                                                  liquids is, that in the fermentation of wort, an aromatic
                                                  substance (hops) is added ; and it is certain that its presence
                                                  modifies the transformations which take place. Now it is
                                                  known that the volatile oil of mustard, and the empyreu-
                                                  matic oils, arrest completely the action of the yeast ; and
                                                  although the oil of hops does not possess this property,
                                                  still it diminishes in a great degree the influence of decomposing
                                                  azotised bodies upon the conversion of alcohol into
                                                  acetic acid. There is, therefore, reason to believe that
                                                  some aromatic substances, when added to fermenting mixtures,
                                                  are capable of producing very various modifications
                                                  in the nature of the products generated."

                                                  The action of dunder, in wash made of molasses, skimmings
                                                  and water, has a similar effect to hops or oil of hops in wort.
                                                  It is the aromatic substance which modifies the changes or
                                                  transformations taking place during fermentation : it increases
                                                  the density of the liquor, preventing that violent
                                                  fermentation during which so much alcohol is lost; and
                                                  keeps the liquor comparatively cool in temperature, and
                                                  slow in its motion.

                                                  Dunder, to be good, should be light, clear, and slightly
                                                  bitter ; it should be quite free from acidity, and is always
                                                  best when fresh.

                                                  Many causes affect the quality of dunder ; and, very often,
                                                  many rounds of the house are injured from the distiller
                                                  using dunder that is acid, or that which is heavy, thick, and
                                                  viscid. When wash is set up with too large a proportion
                                                  of sweets, the fermentation lasts until all the gluten or ferment
                                                  has undergone decomposition and become precipitated ;
                                                  when it ceases for want of more ferment : the sugar which
                                                  still remains in the wash undecomposed is, therefore, incapable
                                                  of being resolved into alcohol ; but instead, passes into
                                                  the still with the wash, and is discharged in the dunder,
                                                  still in the form of sugar. The consequence of which is,
                                                  that the dunder, on cooling, speedily commences to ferment,
                                                  and works away again, more like wash than dunder ; to the
                                                  great alarm of many juvenile distillers, who term it "live
                                                  dunder," and very frequently throw it away, fancying it will
                                                  injure their wash : whereas such dunder should be immediately
                                                  used to set up fresh wash, or be at once redistilled ;
                                                  as the fermentation only arises from the undecomposed
                                                  sugar being acted on by the renewed activity of the ferment.

                                                  Dunder, as it is discharged from the still, runs into dunder
                                                  receivers (placed on a lower level than the still), from which it is
                                                  pumped up, when cool, into the upper receivers, where it clarifies,
                                                  and is then drawn down into the fermenting cisterns, as required.
                                                  Well clarified dunder will keep for six months without any
                                                  injury.
                                                  </extract>

                                                  [Note: It is interesting that in those days, the distinction was
                                                  made between WASH and WORT.

                                                  WASH: The molasses-based fermentation used to make RUM, or the fruit-
                                                  based fermentation used to make BRANDY.

                                                  WORT: The grain-based fermentation used to make beer, or to charge
                                                  the stills to make WHISK(E)Y.]

                                                  As you can see, Dunder is very different to Sour Mash. I feel we
                                                  need to be on the same page on this in order to help (not confuse)
                                                  our members. But if we can't be (same page) we at least need to
                                                  acknowledge that there are distinct differences in the two
                                                  substances, easily seen in the old texts (source of most of what we
                                                  know and practice about this fascinating hobby).



                                                  Slainte!
                                                  regards Harry
                                                • castillo.alex2008
                                                  Hola Harry and Wal After the clarification of the terms here go some questions: 1. How much dunder do you suggest to use for a new fermentation? 2. How do I
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                                    Hola Harry and Wal

                                                    After the clarification of the terms here go some questions:

                                                    1. How much dunder do you suggest to use for a new fermentation?

                                                    2. How do I age dunder?

                                                    3. How much trub (mixture of live and dead yeast from the botton of a
                                                    fermentation) do you suggest for repitching?

                                                    4. Any specific amount of dunder for diluting the charge during the
                                                    spirits run?

                                                    Gracias

                                                    Alex
                                                  • waljaco
                                                    I am just a southern dunderhead. Harry is the Bundy bloke from the Sunshine State where the sugarcane grows. wal
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                                      I am just a southern dunderhead. Harry is the Bundy bloke from the
                                                      Sunshine State where the sugarcane grows.
                                                      wal
                                                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
                                                      <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Hola Harry and Wal
                                                      >
                                                      > After the clarification of the terms here go some questions:
                                                      >
                                                      > 1. How much dunder do you suggest to use for a new fermentation?
                                                      >
                                                      > 2. How do I age dunder?
                                                      >
                                                      > 3. How much trub (mixture of live and dead yeast from the botton of a
                                                      > fermentation) do you suggest for repitching?
                                                      >
                                                      > 4. Any specific amount of dunder for diluting the charge during the
                                                      > spirits run?
                                                      >
                                                      > Gracias
                                                      >
                                                      > Alex
                                                      >
                                                    • Harry
                                                      ... , castillo.alex2008 ... .........If you go back through my posts here, you will see how I keep dunder in a sealed
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Aug 4, 2008
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                                                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008" <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Hola Harry and Wal
                                                        >
                                                        > After the clarification of the terms here go some questions:
                                                        >
                                                        > 1. How much dunder do you suggest to use for a new fermentation?

                                                        ...........I use varying amounts from 25% - 33% by volume

                                                        >
                                                        > 2. How do I age dunder?

                                                        .........If you go back through my posts here, you will see how I keep dunder in a sealed container with a drain part-way off the bottom.  It acts as a separator, to allow removal of CLARIFIED dunder for use.  Anything growing on the surface stays there, and anything solids has settled out below the drain tap.  Of course you need to clean it out once you've removed the clarified dunder, before starting again with your new dunder from your most recent distillation.

                                                        >
                                                        > 3. How much trub (mixture of live and dead yeast from the botton of a
                                                        > fermentation) do you suggest for repitching?

                                                        ..........  It's all a matter of what works best for you in your climate and environment.  In the tropics where I live, we find that about 500ml of BOILED trub per 25 litre of wash is adequate for nutrients, and 500ml regenerated trub will usually kickstart fermentation. When I say 'regenerated', I mean that you dilute it with a little warm water and a little of your wash mix and set it aside.  If it starts to show signs of activity after a half-hour or so, then it's alive.  If not, you may need to use a distillers yeast instead.

                                                        This subject can fill a book all on its own.  I suggest you research here and in links etc., but do experiments as you go to figure what works for you.  We aren't baking cakes & following specific recipes here (or shouldn't be).  Fermentation and distillation are NOT an exact science.  Too many variables involved.  It is part science, part Art, part luck.  Best we can do is give a few guidelines and 'generalisations' to point you in the right direction so you don't end up making avgas  :)

                                                        >
                                                        > 4. Any specific amount of dunder for diluting the charge during the
                                                        > spirits run?

                                                        ................Your spirit still charge should consist of low wines, feints to be recycled, and (water and/or dunder) is used to bring it to a combined 27% a/v.  Read in these groups about diluting the still charge and why.

                                                        Slainte!
                                                        regards Harry

                                                      • jamesonbeam1
                                                        Hi Harry, I believe semantics are comming into play again. I have been using sour mash as a noun versus sour mashing (the verb), which means to add previous
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Aug 5, 2008
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                                                          Hi Harry,

                                                          I believe semantics are comming into play again. I have been using sour
                                                          mash as a noun versus sour mashing (the verb), which means to add
                                                          previous backset (which I guess should be called the "distilled soured
                                                          mash"), back into the sweet mash as in Dr. Crow's process (of Old Crow
                                                          Fame), which I am familiar with and have referenced in previous
                                                          postings.

                                                          As in making Sour Dough breads, one makes a sour dough starter using
                                                          wild yeasts to propagate it, then use that as a continuous feed for new
                                                          batches and its called a sour dough starter..... This is why I have
                                                          referred to sour mash (soured mash) as the left over backset from a
                                                          grain distillation. When it is added to the sweet mash, this too is
                                                          called sour mash and the act of doing it is called sour mashing....
                                                          When I have used that term I usually specify it as "the sour mash from a
                                                          previous distillation" or "distilled sour mash". If this is confusing
                                                          people, the I will refer to it as "distilled sour mash backset".

                                                          But again, to my small mind, Dunder and "distilled sour mash backset"
                                                          are the same thing, except one is done with grains and the other is done
                                                          with molasses and sometimes aged, open to outside air.

                                                          Vino es Veritas,

                                                          Jim.


                                                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...>
                                                          wrote:

                                                          > Sorry Jim. Can't agree with you.
                                                          >
                                                          > Sour Mash is a PROCESS and also the name of the resulting MASH which
                                                          > is set to fermenting. It is not something left over after distilling.
                                                          >
                                                          > Dunder is thin stillage, the leftovers after distilling (but much
                                                          > more, read on).
                                                          >
                                                          > Wal has found the perfect definition of Dunder from a Jamaican
                                                          > Planter/distiller ca. 1848
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > 'The Practical Sugar Planter' by Leonard Wray, 1848.
                                                          > Chapter 10,
                                                          > On The Distillation of Rum,
                                                          > pages 390-412.
                                                          > http://tinyurl.com/5a6g9c
                                                          >
                                                          > <extract>
                                                          > Dunder or (redundar) is the fermented wash after it has
                                                          > undergone distillation, by which it has been deprived of the
                                                          > alcohol it contained. It is quite amusing to hear the different
                                                          > opinions as to the nature of dunder, and its use in
                                                          > distillation. First we had Bryan Edwards, then Porter,
                                                          > then Ure, then Dubrunfaut, and a host of others, all attributing
                                                          > to dunder qualities that do not belong to it ; and all
                                                          > seemingly quite unacquainted with its true properties. It is
                                                          > not more than a few days ago, that I was asked by a person
                                                          > why yeast was not used by our sugar planters as a ferment,
                                                          > instead of dunder ; intimating in very significant terms, that
                                                          > he considered all the West India distillers a very choice pack
                                                          > of fools. Now, this person says that he has been for a long
                                                          > while manager of one of the largest distilleries in the world.
                                                          >
                                                          > He has written a pamphlet on distillation, with a view to
                                                          > enlighten the minds of all distillers, and no doubt fancies himself
                                                          > possessed of all possible knowledge of the subject. And
                                                          > yet this person, who is a clever man, and no doubt very
                                                          > competent to instruct English distillers, does not know what
                                                          > dunder is, or what is its use in the fermentation of wash.
                                                          >
                                                          > Mr. Whitehouse (of Jamaica, now deceased) is the only
                                                          > person in whose writings a correct explanation is given :
                                                          > at least I have met it in no other. But had that gentleman
                                                          > looked somewhat more closely into ' Liebig's
                                                          > Organic Chemistry,' he would have seen an instance quite
                                                          > analogous, mentioned by that great authority, which would
                                                          > have rendered his (Mr. W.'s) ideas on the subject much
                                                          > more clear. Speaking of the wash from which brandy is
                                                          > obtained, and the wort for making beer, Liebig says, "
                                                          > the principal difference in the preparation of the two
                                                          > liquids is, that in the fermentation of wort, an aromatic
                                                          > substance (hops) is added ; and it is certain that its presence
                                                          > modifies the transformations which take place. Now it is
                                                          > known that the volatile oil of mustard, and the empyreu-
                                                          > matic oils, arrest completely the action of the yeast ; and
                                                          > although the oil of hops does not possess this property,
                                                          > still it diminishes in a great degree the influence of decomposing
                                                          > azotised bodies upon the conversion of alcohol into
                                                          > acetic acid. There is, therefore, reason to believe that
                                                          > some aromatic substances, when added to fermenting mixtures,
                                                          > are capable of producing very various modifications
                                                          > in the nature of the products generated."
                                                          >
                                                          > The action of dunder, in wash made of molasses, skimmings
                                                          > and water, has a similar effect to hops or oil of hops in wort.
                                                          > It is the aromatic substance which modifies the changes or
                                                          > transformations taking place during fermentation : it increases
                                                          > the density of the liquor, preventing that violent
                                                          > fermentation during which so much alcohol is lost; and
                                                          > keeps the liquor comparatively cool in temperature, and
                                                          > slow in its motion.
                                                          >
                                                          > Dunder, to be good, should be light, clear, and slightly
                                                          > bitter ; it should be quite free from acidity, and is always
                                                          > best when fresh.
                                                          >
                                                          > Many causes affect the quality of dunder ; and, very often,
                                                          > many rounds of the house are injured from the distiller
                                                          > using dunder that is acid, or that which is heavy, thick, and
                                                          > viscid. When wash is set up with too large a proportion
                                                          > of sweets, the fermentation lasts until all the gluten or ferment
                                                          > has undergone decomposition and become precipitated ;
                                                          > when it ceases for want of more ferment : the sugar which
                                                          > still remains in the wash undecomposed is, therefore, incapable
                                                          > of being resolved into alcohol ; but instead, passes into
                                                          > the still with the wash, and is discharged in the dunder,
                                                          > still in the form of sugar. The consequence of which is,
                                                          > that the dunder, on cooling, speedily commences to ferment,
                                                          > and works away again, more like wash than dunder ; to the
                                                          > great alarm of many juvenile distillers, who term it "live
                                                          > dunder," and very frequently throw it away, fancying it will
                                                          > injure their wash : whereas such dunder should be immediately
                                                          > used to set up fresh wash, or be at once redistilled ;
                                                          > as the fermentation only arises from the undecomposed
                                                          > sugar being acted on by the renewed activity of the ferment.
                                                          >
                                                          > Dunder, as it is discharged from the still, runs into dunder
                                                          > receivers (placed on a lower level than the still), from which it is
                                                          > pumped up, when cool, into the upper receivers, where it clarifies,
                                                          > and is then drawn down into the fermenting cisterns, as required.
                                                          > Well clarified dunder will keep for six months without any
                                                          > injury.
                                                          > </extract>
                                                          >
                                                          > [Note: It is interesting that in those days, the distinction was
                                                          > made between WASH and WORT.
                                                          >
                                                          > WASH: The molasses-based fermentation used to make RUM, or the fruit-
                                                          > based fermentation used to make BRANDY.
                                                          >
                                                          > WORT: The grain-based fermentation used to make beer, or to charge
                                                          > the stills to make WHISK(E)Y.]
                                                          >
                                                          > As you can see, Dunder is very different to Sour Mash. I feel we
                                                          > need to be on the same page on this in order to help (not confuse)
                                                          > our members. But if we can't be (same page) we at least need to
                                                          > acknowledge that there are distinct differences in the two
                                                          > substances, easily seen in the old texts (source of most of what we
                                                          > know and practice about this fascinating hobby).
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Slainte!
                                                          > regards Harry
                                                          >
                                                        • mavnkaf
                                                          ... sour ... Hi Jim, I ve got say, I have no exprience in making real sour mashes but I have read some stuff about it like the artical below. Point has done
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Aug 6, 2008
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                                                            <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > Hi Harry,
                                                            >
                                                            > I believe semantics are comming into play again. I have been using
                                                            sour
                                                            > mash as a noun versus sour mashing (the verb), which means to add
                                                            > previous backset (which I guess should be called the "distilled soured
                                                            > mash"), back into the sweet mash as in Dr. Crow's process (of Old Crow
                                                            > Fame), which I am familiar with and have referenced in previous
                                                            > postings.
                                                            >

                                                            Hi Jim, I've got say, I have no exprience in making real sour mashes
                                                            but I have read some stuff about it like the artical below. Point has
                                                            done alot of this sort of stuff as well. Points words, Just to pick a
                                                            sentence.

                                                            "Just using backset is only half of the sour mash process. Until you
                                                            get some lactic acid going it will never be "Sour"."

                                                            Just following the unlce Jess's no cook recipe or simple sour mash corn
                                                            flavoured spirit don't add up to the Sour Mash Procedure as far as I
                                                            have seen.

                                                            --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                            Sour Mash Procedure

                                                            by Bill Vaughan
                                                            2/4/95

                                                            If you're doing a part-mash, part-extract recipe, this applies to your
                                                            whole mash. If all-grain, you should probably only do this with part of
                                                            your mash unless you like really sour beer. Mash as usual. Do NOT try
                                                            to sour the mash before mashing -- it will get sour but will not
                                                            convert. Amylase seems not to work at low pH. Take the mash to 170F for
                                                            mash-out. At this point it contains no lactobacillus, so we will have
                                                            to introduce some. There are four obvious sources: yogurt, sourdough,
                                                            and "wild" lacto from grain hulls or the air. You need to cool the mash
                                                            to the correct temperature for your lacto source.

                                                            1. Yogurt: I use commercial packaged yogurt culture, from your local
                                                            health food store. I suppose you could use grocery-store yogurt, but
                                                            I've never tried it. Cool the mash to 90 degF, sprinkle the culture on
                                                            the surface of the mash and mix it in.

                                                            2. Sourdough: Use a commercial packaged sourdough starter, but don't
                                                            just sprinkle it on your mash -- it will take too long. Instead, a week
                                                            or so early (about when you do your yeast starter -- you DO do a yeast
                                                            starter, don't you?) make a 1-pound mash of plain pale malt and start
                                                            the sourdough starter in that. By mashing day it should be nice and
                                                            stinky. Stir the whole mess into your mash. Starting and fermentation
                                                            temp is about 105 degF.

                                                            3. Wild lacto, from grain hulls: This is the traditional method. Just
                                                            stir a quarter pound of grain, right from the sack, into your mash. I
                                                            don't know the traditional temp, but I suspect 90-100 degF will work.

                                                            4. Wild lacto, from the air: Cool your mash to about 90 degF, take it
                                                            outside, and leave it open to the air for about twenty minutes. Shoo
                                                            away the birds. In principle, this can give you a particularly local
                                                            lactobacillus strain. I don't do it -- I figure my local strain is just
                                                            lactobacillus sanfrancisco anyhow.

                                                            In all cases, keep the mash at your fermentation temp until it is
                                                            ready. That will take one to two days for yogurt culture, maybe three
                                                            days for sourdough. The only time I tried wild lacto, it was like
                                                            lightning -- five or six hours. When the stuff is done, it will look
                                                            and smell spoiled. There is nothing uglier than a lactic fermentation,
                                                            and your marriage may be in jeopardy from the stench. The mash will
                                                            look soupy, with husks floating on top and a lot of bubbles. If you can
                                                            get it past your nose, you will find that the liquid tastes good. Sour,
                                                            but good.

                                                            I suppose you can let the mash ferment to completion, but I don't. It
                                                            would be terribly sour. I go for my target pH, and then raise the mash
                                                            back to 170 degF for sparging. Before re-heating your mash, you should
                                                            pull some out -- say a half pound to a pound -- and keep it. That way,
                                                            if you like your sourmash beer, you have a ce ready-made for your next
                                                            batch. It will keep for a surprisingly long time in the refrigerator,
                                                            with a lid on it. Feed it every month or so. You can even make
                                                            sourdough bread out of it.

                                                            -----------------------------------------------------------------

                                                            Cheers
                                                            Marc
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