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Re: Some questions

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  • waljaco
    Acid hydrolysis of starch and cellulose is possible. The problem for the homedistillers is that the acid is corrosive and a high cooking temperature is
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 30, 2008
      Acid hydrolysis of starch and cellulose is possible. The problem for
      the homedistillers is that the acid is corrosive and a high cooking
      temperature is required.
      wal
      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
      <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi Alex,
      >
      > Suggestions below in Bold:
      >
      >
      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
      > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi, could you please give me your answers to the following ones:
      >
      > 1. Sour Wash?
      >
      > I know that bourbon makers use up to 25% to their backset in new
      > fermentations and that´s what they call sour mash. I wonder, can I
      > use my backset in the sugar wash fermentations? up to what percent?
      > what is the advantage of doing so?
      >
      > Bourbon makers use 25 - 40% Sour Mash to add flavor and reduce pH
      level
      > of the Limestone waters to about 5.7 pH. Keep the pH level around
      5.4
      > - 5.8 ph average when starting a fermentation... See Sour Mash in
      the
      > Info Base.
      >
      > 2. Flavoring fermentation wiht used oak chips?
      >
      > I read that you could flavor the alcohol from the fermentation stage
      > using oak, could you use your used chips to do that? does anybody
      has
      > experience doing it? does it work?
      >
      > Oak chips work somewhat like a oak barrel. 2 or 3 oz. of charred
      oak
      > chips per gallon should give color and the wooden flavors after
      about 6
      > months or so. But read up on Oak Barrels and how they expand and
      > contract with temperatures and breath - its in the Info base. Also
      read
      > how various char levels affect the flavorings.
      >
      > 3. Iodine test reagents.
      >
      > Where can I get the reagents for the iodine test? How do I do the
      > test?
      >
      > Buy a bottle of Iodine... Add 2-3 drops to an ounce of
      fermentation.
      > If it turns blackish, there is still starch. If it doesnt change
      color
      > - no starch.
      >
      > The Iodine test is used to test for the presence of starch
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starch> . Iodine solution — iodine
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodine> dissolved in an aqueous
      solution
      > of potassium iodide <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_iodide>
      > — reacts with starch <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starch>
      > producing a deep blue-black color.
      >
      > This reaction is the result of the formation of polyiodide chains
      from
      > the reaction of starch and iodine. The amylose
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amylose> , or straight chain portion
      of
      > starch, forms helices where iodine molecules assemble, forming a
      dark
      > blue/black color. The amylopectin
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amylopectin> , or branched portion of
      > starch, forms much shorter helices and iodine molecules are unable
      to
      > assemble, leading the color to be of an orange/yellow hue. As
      starch is
      > broken down or hydrolyzed <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolyzed>
      > into smaller carbohydrate units, the blue-black color is not
      produced.
      > Therefore, this test can determine completion of hydrolysis when a
      color
      > change does not occur.
      >
      > Iodine solution will also react with glycogen
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycogen> , although the color
      produced is
      > browner and much less intense.
      >
      >
      >
      > 4. Mashing with acid
      >
      > I´m after an all grain whiskey (no sugar added) but for mashing
      > instead of using malt or enzymes I´m thinking in using citric acid.
      > That will be cracking the grain and make it boil with water with
      some
      > citric acid (i.e. 1/4 cup for 10 pounds of grain in 5 gallons?)
      > during an hour or so. Does anybody has experience doing that?
      >
      > Noooooooo... All citric acid will do is decrease pH and invert any
      > sugars present. What you need is alpha and beta amalyse enzymes in
      some
      > form or other (usually from malted barley that contains the most).
      > Please look up and read about Mashing in the Info base on Tony's
      site.
      > This is a mult-step process.
      >
      > Amylase is an enzyme <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzyme> that
      breaks
      > starch <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starch> down into sugar
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar> . Amylase is present in human
      > saliva <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saliva> , where it begins the
      > chemical process of digestion
      <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestion> .
      > Foods that contain much starch but little sugar, such as as rice
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice> and potato
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato> , taste slightly sweet as
      they are
      > chewed because amylase turns some of their starch into sugar in the
      > mouth. The pancreas <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancreas> also
      makes
      > amylase to break down stored glycogen
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycogen> into glucose
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose> to supply the body with
      energy.
      > Plants and some bacteria also produce amylase. As diastase
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diastase> , amylase was the first
      enzyme
      > to be discovered and isolated (by Anselme Payen
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anselme_Payen> in 1833)[citation
      needed
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed> ]. Specific
      > amylase proteins <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein> are
      designated
      > by different Greek letters. All amylases are glycoside hydrolases
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycoside_hydrolase> and act on
      > α-1,4-glycosidic bonds
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycosidic_bond> . Also see:
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amylase
      > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amylase>
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      > Alex
      >
      > P.D. Thanks Jim for the price, whatever it means.
      >
      > The prize was for breaking the 30,000th posting after over 8
      years of
      > this site's existance. However, again the true prize goes to
      Harry for
      > keeping us alive all these years... [:)]
      >
    • jamesonbeam1
      True Wal, But: Acid hydrolysis of starch has had widespread use in the past. It is now largely replaced by enzymic processes, as it required the use of
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 30, 2008

        True Wal,

        But:

        Acid hydrolysis of starch has had widespread use in the past. It is now largely replaced by enzymic processes, as it required the use of corrosion resistant materials, gave rise to high colour and saltash content (after neutralisation), needed more energy for heating and was relatively difficult to control.

        Most common methods today employ Amylase enzymes:  SEE: http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/biology/enztech/starch.html

        Table 4.2 Enzymes used in starch hydrolysis

        Enzyme

        EC number

        Source

        Action 

        a-Amylase

        3.2.1.1

        Bacillus amyloliquefaciens

        Only a-1,4-oligosaccharide links are cleaved to give a-dextrins and predominantly maltose (G2), G3, G6 and G7 oligosaccharides

        B. licheniformis

        Only a-1,4-oligosaccharide links are cleaved to give a-dextrins and predominantly maltose, G3, G4 and G5 oligosaccharides

        Aspergillus oryzae, A. niger

        Only a-1,4 oligosaccharide links are cleaved to give a-dextrins and predominantly maltose and G3 oligosaccharides

        Saccharifying a-amylase

        3.2.1.1

        B. subtilis (amylosacchariticus)

        Only a-1,4-oligosaccharide links are cleaved to give a-dextrins with maltose, G3, G4 and up to 50% (w/w) glucose 

        b-Amylase

        3.2.1.2

        Malted barley

        Only a-1,4-links are cleaved, from non-reducing ends, to give limit dextrins and b-maltose

        Glucoamylase

        3.2.1.3

        A. niger

        a-1,4 and a-1,6-links are cleaved, from the nonreducing ends, to give b-glucose

        Pullulanase

        3.2.1.41

        B. acidopullulyticus

        Only a-1,6-links are cleaved to give straight-chain maltodextrins


        Vino es Veritas,

        Jim.


        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@...> wrote:
        >
        > Acid hydrolysis of starch and cellulose is possible. The problem for
        > the homedistillers is that the acid is corrosive and a high cooking
        > temperature is required.
        > wal

      • castillo.alex2008
        Thanks for your responses Jim, but I think I misused a preposition in question 2. I used from instead of using since , so what I mean is, Could I use at
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 30, 2008
          Thanks for your responses Jim, but I think I misused a preposition in
          question 2. I used "from" instead of using "since", so what I mean
          is, Could I use at the very beginning, during the fermentation stage
          used oak chips for getting flavor? (since I know that after spirits
          run you must age using oak). and also Where do I get the Iodine?

          Thanks,

          Alex

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
          <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Alex,
          >
          > Suggestions below in Bold:
          >
          >
          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
          > <castillo.alex2008@> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi, could you please give me your answers to the following ones:
          >
          > 1. Sour Wash?
          >
          > I know that bourbon makers use up to 25% to their backset in new
          > fermentations and that´s what they call sour mash. I wonder, can I
          > use my backset in the sugar wash fermentations? up to what percent?
          > what is the advantage of doing so?
          >
          > Bourbon makers use 25 - 40% Sour Mash to add flavor and reduce pH
          level
          > of the Limestone waters to about 5.7 pH. Keep the pH level around
          5.4
          > - 5.8 ph average when starting a fermentation... See Sour Mash in
          the
          > Info Base.
          >
          > 2. Flavoring fermentation wiht used oak chips?
          >
          > I read that you could flavor the alcohol from the fermentation stage
          > using oak, could you use your used chips to do that? does anybody
          has
          > experience doing it? does it work?
          >
          > Oak chips work somewhat like a oak barrel. 2 or 3 oz. of charred
          oak
          > chips per gallon should give color and the wooden flavors after
          about 6
          > months or so. But read up on Oak Barrels and how they expand and
          > contract with temperatures and breath - its in the Info base. Also
          read
          > how various char levels affect the flavorings.
          >
          > 3. Iodine test reagents.
          >
          > Where can I get the reagents for the iodine test? How do I do the
          > test?
          >
          > Buy a bottle of Iodine... Add 2-3 drops to an ounce of
          fermentation.
          > If it turns blackish, there is still starch. If it doesnt change
          color
          > - no starch.
          >
          > The Iodine test is used to test for the presence of starch
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starch> . Iodine solution — iodine
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodine> dissolved in an aqueous
          solution
          > of potassium iodide <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_iodide>
          > — reacts with starch <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starch>
          > producing a deep blue-black color.
          >
          > This reaction is the result of the formation of polyiodide chains
          from
          > the reaction of starch and iodine. The amylose
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amylose> , or straight chain portion
          of
          > starch, forms helices where iodine molecules assemble, forming a
          dark
          > blue/black color. The amylopectin
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amylopectin> , or branched portion of
          > starch, forms much shorter helices and iodine molecules are unable
          to
          > assemble, leading the color to be of an orange/yellow hue. As
          starch is
          > broken down or hydrolyzed <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrolyzed>
          > into smaller carbohydrate units, the blue-black color is not
          produced.
          > Therefore, this test can determine completion of hydrolysis when a
          color
          > change does not occur.
          >
          > Iodine solution will also react with glycogen
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycogen> , although the color
          produced is
          > browner and much less intense.
          >
          >
          >
          > 4. Mashing with acid
          >
          > I´m after an all grain whiskey (no sugar added) but for mashing
          > instead of using malt or enzymes I´m thinking in using citric acid.
          > That will be cracking the grain and make it boil with water with
          some
          > citric acid (i.e. 1/4 cup for 10 pounds of grain in 5 gallons?)
          > during an hour or so. Does anybody has experience doing that?
          >
          > Noooooooo... All citric acid will do is decrease pH and invert any
          > sugars present. What you need is alpha and beta amalyse enzymes in
          some
          > form or other (usually from malted barley that contains the most).
          > Please look up and read about Mashing in the Info base on Tony's
          site.
          > This is a mult-step process.
          >
          > Amylase is an enzyme <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enzyme> that
          breaks
          > starch <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starch> down into sugar
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar> . Amylase is present in human
          > saliva <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saliva> , where it begins the
          > chemical process of digestion
          <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestion> .
          > Foods that contain much starch but little sugar, such as as rice
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice> and potato
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato> , taste slightly sweet as
          they are
          > chewed because amylase turns some of their starch into sugar in the
          > mouth. The pancreas <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancreas> also
          makes
          > amylase to break down stored glycogen
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycogen> into glucose
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucose> to supply the body with
          energy.
          > Plants and some bacteria also produce amylase. As diastase
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diastase> , amylase was the first
          enzyme
          > to be discovered and isolated (by Anselme Payen
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anselme_Payen> in 1833)[citation
          needed
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed> ]. Specific
          > amylase proteins <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein> are
          designated
          > by different Greek letters. All amylases are glycoside hydrolases
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycoside_hydrolase> and act on
          > α-1,4-glycosidic bonds
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycosidic_bond> . Also see:
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amylase
          > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amylase>
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Alex
          >
          > P.D. Thanks Jim for the price, whatever it means.
          >
          > The prize was for breaking the 30,000th posting after over 8
          years of
          > this site's existance. However, again the true prize goes to
          Harry for
          > keeping us alive all these years... [:)]
          >
        • jamesonbeam1
          If your talking about using oak chips during fermentation itself, the answer would be - not during the primary fermentation which usually last less then a
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 30, 2008
            If your talking about using oak chips during fermentation itself, the
            answer would be - not during the primary fermentation which usually last
            less then a week. Wine makers will add oak chips during the secondary
            fermentation after racking off the lees, and can last 6 months or more.

            For distillation purposes, any of this flavor or smoothness (body from
            tannin in the oak), would be lost. Your much better off to ferment,
            then distill, then age on oak chips or in a barrel.

            Vino es Veritas,

            Jim.


            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "castillo.alex2008"
            <castillo.alex2008@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Thanks for your responses Jim, but I think I misused a preposition in
            > question 2. I used "from" instead of using "since", so what I mean
            > is, Could I use at the very beginning, during the fermentation stage
            > used oak chips for getting flavor? (since I know that after spirits
            > run you must age using oak). and also Where do I get the Iodine?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Alex


            2. Flavoring fermentation wiht used oak chips?

            I read that you could flavor the alcohol from the fermentation stage
            using oak, could you use your used chips to do that? does anybody has
            experience doing it? does it work?
          • waljaco
            See The Alcohol Library (Link provided at site homepage) Distillation of Alcohol And De-Naturing , by FB Wright,(1907) Softening grain by acid (p138-139)
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 30, 2008
              See 'The Alcohol Library' (Link provided at site homepage)

              'Distillation of Alcohol And De-Naturing', by FB Wright,(1907)

              'Softening grain by acid' (p138-139)
              You need a pressure-cooker to cook the grain at 180C (350F) otherwise
              you need malted barley.

              wal
              Malted barley, enzymes or raw mashed sweet potatoes are more practical!




              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
              <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > True Wal,
              >
              > But:
              >
              > Acid hydrolysis of starch has had widespread use in the past. It is now
              > largely replaced by enzymic processes, as it required the use of
              > corrosion resistant materials, gave rise to high colour and saltash
              > content (after neutralisation), needed more energy for heating and was
              > relatively difficult to control.
              >
              > Most common methods today employ Amylase enzymes: SEE:
              > http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/biology/enztech/starch.html
              > <http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/biology/enztech/starch.html>
              >
              > Table 4.2 Enzymes used in starch hydrolysis
              >
              > Enzyme
              >
              > EC number
              >
              > Source
              >
              > Action
              >
              > a-Amylase
              >
              > 3.2.1.1
              >
              > Bacillus amyloliquefaciens
              >
              > Only a-1,4-oligosaccharide links are cleaved to give a-dextrins and
              > predominantly maltose (G2), G3, G6 and G7 oligosaccharides
              >
              > B. licheniformis
              >
              > Only a-1,4-oligosaccharide links are cleaved to give a-dextrins and
              > predominantly maltose, G3, G4 and G5 oligosaccharides
              >
              > Aspergillus oryzae, A. niger
              >
              > Only a-1,4 oligosaccharide links are cleaved to give a-dextrins and
              > predominantly maltose and G3 oligosaccharides
              >
              > Saccharifying a-amylase
              >
              > 3.2.1.1
              >
              > B. subtilis (amylosacchariticus)
              >
              > Only a-1,4-oligosaccharide links are cleaved to give a-dextrins with
              > maltose, G3, G4 and up to 50% (w/w) glucose
              >
              > b-Amylase
              >
              > 3.2.1.2
              >
              > Malted barley
              >
              > Only a-1,4-links are cleaved, from non-reducing ends, to give limit
              > dextrins and b-maltose
              >
              > Glucoamylase
              >
              > 3.2.1.3
              >
              > A. niger
              >
              > a-1,4 and a-1,6-links are cleaved, from the nonreducing ends, to give
              > b-glucose
              >
              > Pullulanase
              >
              > 3.2.1.41
              >
              > B. acidopullulyticus
              >
              > Only a-1,6-links are cleaved to give straight-chain maltodextrins
              >
              > Vino es Veritas,
              >
              > Jim.
              >
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "waljaco" <waljaco@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Acid hydrolysis of starch and cellulose is possible. The problem for
              > > the homedistillers is that the acid is corrosive and a high cooking
              > > temperature is required.
              > > wal
              >
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