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  • daddyman00126
    I am getting prepared on filling a 8 liter barrel with corn alcohol. On a spirit run my still without copper scrubbies will produce about 85 ABV starting and
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 8, 2008
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      I am getting prepared on filling a 8 liter barrel with corn alcohol.

      On a spirit run my still without copper scrubbies will produce about
      85 ABV starting and will finish at about 65 ABV before I hit tails
      real bad.

      These are my calculations.

      11.3 liters of low wines at 45% ABV and if I go with the mid range
      (65% thru 85%) and use 75% ABV as a final measurement then I should
      get about 6.4 liters of 75% ABV worth of whishey.

      Now taking
      6.4 liters at 75% ABV and adding 2.3 liters of water will get me
      close to 55% ABV.

      6.4 + 2.3 = 8.7 liters of 55% whiskey to add to barrel.

      Now I will let this sit for about 3 to 6 months. I will draw off 3.2
      liters of whiskey and add back to the barrel the same amount in water
      dropping my ABV to 40%

      This I will allow to set another 3 to 6 months.
      Finished product I am hoping will produce a nice whisky with some
      vanillins and a touch of sweet to it.

      Comments or suggestions will be appreciated.
      Thanks

      BILL1BURP
    • daddyman00126
      Well I just finished my last strip run. I now have just under 3 gallons of 47 ABV low wines all made from the corn flake and corn meal recipe. Here soon I will
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 29, 2008
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        Well I just finished my last strip run. I now have just under 3
        gallons of 47 ABV low wines all made from the corn flake and corn
        meal recipe.

        Here soon I will be getting my 8 liter barrel ready for the final
        product. If I could get someone to check out my calculations below
        and let me know if I screwed something up that would be great.

        BILL1BURP

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "daddyman00126"
        <daddyman00126@...> wrote:
        >
        > I am getting prepared on filling a 8 liter barrel with corn alcohol.
        >
        > On a spirit run my still without copper scrubbies will produce
        about
        > 85 ABV starting and will finish at about 65 ABV before I hit tails
        > real bad.
        >
        > These are my calculations.
        >
        > 11.3 liters of low wines at 45% ABV and if I go with the mid range
        > (65% thru 85%) and use 75% ABV as a final measurement then I should
        > get about 6.4 liters of 75% ABV worth of whishey.
        >
        > Now taking
        > 6.4 liters at 75% ABV and adding 2.3 liters of water will get me
        > close to 55% ABV.
        >
        > 6.4 + 2.3 = 8.7 liters of 55% whiskey to add to barrel.
        >
        > Now I will let this sit for about 3 to 6 months. I will draw off
        3.2
        > liters of whiskey and add back to the barrel the same amount in
        water
        > dropping my ABV to 40%
        >
        > This I will allow to set another 3 to 6 months.
        > Finished product I am hoping will produce a nice whisky with some
        > vanillins and a touch of sweet to it.
        >
        > Comments or suggestions will be appreciated.
        > Thanks
        >
        > BILL1BURP
        >
      • Harry
        ... tails ... range ... should ... Those calcs are ballpark numbers at best, only a guide. Your calcs will be out for a number of reasons. 1. Still efficiency.
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 29, 2008
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          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "daddyman00126"
          <daddyman00126@...> wrote:
          >
          > Well I just finished my last strip run. I now have just under 3
          > gallons of 47 ABV low wines all made from the corn flake and corn
          > meal recipe.
          >
          > Here soon I will be getting my 8 liter barrel ready for the final
          > product. If I could get someone to check out my calculations below
          > and let me know if I screwed something up that would be great.
          >
          > >
          > > On a spirit run my still without copper scrubbies will produce
          > about
          > > 85 ABV starting and will finish at about 65 ABV before I hit
          tails
          > > real bad.
          > >
          > > These are my calculations.
          > >
          > > 11.3 liters of low wines at 45% ABV and if I go with the mid
          range
          > > (65% thru 85%) and use 75% ABV as a final measurement then I
          should
          > > get about 6.4 liters of 75% ABV worth of whishey.
          > >
          > > Now taking
          > > 6.4 liters at 75% ABV and adding 2.3 liters of water will get me
          > > close to 55% ABV.
          > >
          > > 6.4 + 2.3 = 8.7 liters of 55% whiskey to add to barrel.
          > >
          > > Now I will let this sit for about 3 to 6 months. I will draw off
          > 3.2
          > > liters of whiskey and add back to the barrel the same amount in
          > water
          > > dropping my ABV to 40%
          > >
          > > This I will allow to set another 3 to 6 months.
          > > Finished product I am hoping will produce a nice whisky with some
          > > vanillins and a touch of sweet to it.
          > >
          > > Comments or suggestions will be appreciated.
          > > Thanks
          > >
          > > BILL1BURP
          > >
          >


          Those calcs are ballpark numbers at best, only a guide.

          Your calcs will be out for a number of reasons.
          1. Still efficiency.
          2. Stillman efficiency/expertise.
          3. Soakage into the wood.
          4. Angel's share
          5. 1 vol alc + 1 vol water finishes up LESS than 2 volumes.
          This is because the water molecules are smaller than the alcohol
          molecules and fit in between (Analogy: think large pebbles in a
          bucket and then pouring in fine sand). Weight is a better
          measurement to use for precision, but this is amateur distilling, no
          need to be that accurate. It's not as if you're gauging excise tax.

          Calcs can never be precise in the smaller quantities, certainly not
          to decimal points.

          Try this...
          Do your spirit run on the low wines. Determine the volume you
          achieve and the %a/v. Now dilute it using charts and a good spirit
          hydrometer, allowing for temp adjustment. There's a precision chart
          here...
          http://www.alcbevtesting.com/PDF_Files/AlcoholDilutionTable.pdf

          Now fill your cask. Give it a month or so then run it all out and
          measure the volume and strength. It will be lower volume than your
          starting figure when you filled the cask. The difference in volume
          will be mostly soakage taken up by the wood, and a little bit for
          Angel's share (it's only been in wood for a month).

          The Angel's share needs more explanation. In cask aging, you will
          always lose some liquid volume due to evaporation. This is somewhere
          in the order of 2% overall per year, but varies widely depending on
          cask size and climate. How much of that loss is alc & how much is
          water largely depends on your prevailing climate. In hot climates
          the measured strength may even be higher than you started with, but
          at the same time the overall volume will be down compared to a cold
          climate. This is seen in places like Louisiana in the USA. By
          comparison, in Scotland alc loss is consistently 2% per year but the
          overall volume of the liquid remains somewhat higher.

          Hot climate = marginally higher %alc & much lower volume (high water
          evaporation).
          Cold climate = lower %alc & better overall volume (high alc
          evaporation) . The Angels get their cut one way or t'other.

          Since the taxation is on the alcohol content alone, not the overall
          volume, it makes no difference to the authorities where the spirit is
          aged. But it makes a difference to the makers regarding the volume
          available for sale.

          Now having suitably confused you, let's get back to your cask-aging
          brew. After taking your measurements at 1 month in, if you want to
          reduce it further in strength, do it with your new figures and the
          dilution chart and hydrometer. Or just accept it for what it is and
          enjoy your newfound skills. :))

          If you want all this to be repeatable, I suggest you keep good
          written notes of everything you do for a year or two. That's the
          ONLY way to get your head around it.

          I Hope this has been useful to you.


          Slainte!
          regards Harry
        • jamesonbeam1
          Hey Bill, If you finished with about 3 gallons of 47% ABV low wines, I would dilute that to around 30% or so : Dilute L US fl oz US cups US pint US qt US
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 30, 2008
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            Hey Bill,

            If you finished with about 3 gallons of 47% ABV low wines,  I would dilute that to around 30% or so :

            Dilute of % alcohol Down to %
            By adding Water

            When you distill this and make your cuts, (about 4.70 gallons of distillate),  the cuts average about:

            2-3%  Foreshots

            17 - 20% Heads

            57 -60% Middle Run (Hearts)

            22 - 25% Tails

            (For a total of 100%)

            By taking your cuts in around 250 mL increments (I use 12 -  500 ml mason jars for mine), you should, by tasting and mixing some heads, the hearts and some tails, get about 75 - 80% of this.

            So that would be almost 2 gallons of around 60% (120 proof)  [4.7 gallons * .80 = 3.76 gallons @ 30% ABV / 2 = 1.88 gallons @ 60% ABV]  which is the suggested level for aging on oak...

            But its only 6:15 AM here and Ive been up since 3 making some new Rum wash, so my math may be off...   :):):)

            Vino es Veritas,

            Jim.

             

             

             



            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "daddyman00126" <daddyman00126@...> wrote:

            Well I just finished my last strip run. I now have just under 3
            gallons of 47 ABV low wines all made from the corn flake and corn
            meal recipe.

            Here soon I will be getting my 8 liter barrel ready for the final
            product. If I could get someone to check out my calculations below
            and let me know if I screwed something up that would be great.

            BILL1BURP

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "daddyman00126"
            <daddyman00126@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am getting prepared on filling a 8 liter barrel with corn alcohol.
            >
            > On a spirit run my still without copper scrubbies will produce
            about
            > 85 ABV starting and will finish at about 65 ABV before I hit tails
            > real bad.
            >
            > These are my calculations.
            >
            > 11.3 liters of low wines at 45% ABV and if I go with the mid range
            > (65% thru 85%) and use 75% ABV as a final measurement then I should
            > get about 6.4 liters of 75% ABV worth of whishey.
            >
            > Now taking
            > 6.4 liters at 75% ABV and adding 2.3 liters of water will get me
            > close to 55% ABV.
            >
            > 6.4 + 2.3 = 8.7 liters of 55% whiskey to add to barrel.
            >
            > Now I will let this sit for about 3 to 6 months. I will draw off
            3.2
            > liters of whiskey and add back to the barrel the same amount in
            water
            > dropping my ABV to 40%
            >
            > This I will allow to set another 3 to 6 months.
            > Finished product I am hoping will produce a nice whisky with some
            > vanillins and a touch of sweet to it.
            >
            > Comments or suggestions will be appreciated.
            > Thanks
            >
            > BILL1BURP

          • daddyman00126
            I want to thank both you Jim and also Harry for your answers. One final question about the spirit run. Forgive me if you have hit this topic in the past but,
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 1, 2008
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              I want to thank both you Jim and also Harry for your answers. One
              final question about the spirit run. Forgive me if you have hit this
              topic in the past but, why would I delute the low wines with water? I
              have a pot still and am using propane for heat. I do not have to
              worry running it dry, or do I?

              The best for last
              BILL1BURP

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
              <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hey Bill,
              >
              > If you finished with about 3 gallons of 47% ABV low wines, I would
              > dilute that to around 30% or so :
              > Dilute L US fl oz US cups US pint US qt US gal of % alcohol Down
              to
              > % By adding L US fl oz US cups US pints US qt US gal Water
              > When you distill this and make your cuts, (about 4.70 gallons of
              > distillate), the cuts average about:
              >
              > 2-3% Foreshots
              >
              > 17 - 20% Heads
              >
              > 57 -60% Middle Run (Hearts)
              >
              > 22 - 25% Tails
              >
              > (For a total of 100%)
              >
              > By taking your cuts in around 250 mL increments (I use 12 - 500 ml
              > mason jars for mine), you should, by tasting and mixing some heads,
              the
              > hearts and some tails, get about 75 - 80% of this.
              >
              > So that would be almost 2 gallons of around 60% (120 proof) [4.7
              > gallons * .80 = 3.76 gallons @ 30% ABV / 2 = 1.88 gallons @ 60%
              ABV]
              > which is the suggested level for aging on oak...
              >
              > But its only 6:15 AM here and Ive been up since 3 making some new
              Rum
              > wash, so my math may be off... [:)] [:)] [:)]
              >
              > Vino es Veritas,
              >
              > Jim.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "daddyman00126"
              > <daddyman00126@> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Well I just finished my last strip run. I now have just under 3
              > gallons of 47 ABV low wines all made from the corn flake and corn
              > meal recipe.
              >
              > Here soon I will be getting my 8 liter barrel ready for the final
              > product. If I could get someone to check out my calculations below
              > and let me know if I screwed something up that would be great.
              >
              > BILL1BURP
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/post?
              postID=XQNunaw_hPDXuB\
              > P6RDisDQ8Vym5rVZ5eY6thGEF46LfI4F5SMaTCLYh-
              BXv3YTDHtZmryktaojxiYHxcFS6tCE\
              > AVzZcGAvk> , "daddyman00126"
              > <daddyman00126@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I am getting prepared on filling a 8 liter barrel with corn
              alcohol.
              > >
              > > On a spirit run my still without copper scrubbies will produce
              > about
              > > 85 ABV starting and will finish at about 65 ABV before I hit tails
              > > real bad.
              > >
              > > These are my calculations.
              > >
              > > 11.3 liters of low wines at 45% ABV and if I go with the mid range
              > > (65% thru 85%) and use 75% ABV as a final measurement then I
              should
              > > get about 6.4 liters of 75% ABV worth of whishey.
              > >
              > > Now taking
              > > 6.4 liters at 75% ABV and adding 2.3 liters of water will get me
              > > close to 55% ABV.
              > >
              > > 6.4 + 2.3 = 8.7 liters of 55% whiskey to add to barrel.
              > >
              > > Now I will let this sit for about 3 to 6 months. I will draw off
              > 3.2
              > > liters of whiskey and add back to the barrel the same amount in
              > water
              > > dropping my ABV to 40%
              > >
              > > This I will allow to set another 3 to 6 months.
              > > Finished product I am hoping will produce a nice whisky with some
              > > vanillins and a touch of sweet to it.
              > >
              > > Comments or suggestions will be appreciated.
              > > Thanks
              > >
              > > BILL1BURP
              >
            • jamesonbeam1
              Hey Bill, Good question. There are 2 basic reasons for doing this. The first is for saftety reasons, due to the highly explosive properties of high ABV
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 1, 2008
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                Hey Bill,

                Good question.  There are 2 basic reasons for doing this.  

                The first is for saftety reasons, due to the highly explosive properties of high ABV alcohol fumes.  The second and main reason are to allow additional flavors to come through in making a whiskey.  I forgot to tell you to use backset (sour mash) instead of water for dilution and  to add to these flavors in my first posting. 

                The concept here, is that on the second (or third) distillation, you want to lower the ABV of the low wines so you wont get such a high ethanol percent on the spirits run.  This allows more of the grain flavors to come through in your final product.  To take this to extremes, if you used a reflux still and distilled up to azeotrophe (95.6%) ABV, you would get a neutral alcohol with NO flavors...

                If you review Tony's Pot still purity chart,  at a 47% ABV level,  20 liters would give you something like this:

                Input your Pot still characteristics

                Initial Volume of Wash L
                Alcohol Content % by volume
                Initial Temperature C
                Power during Heat-up W
                Power during Distillation W
                %Internal Reflux %
                Time-step for calculation min


                Results

                Time to Heat up Still contents

                TimeTempCollectedPurityTotal CollectedTotal Purity

                This would give you more alcohol and less flavors.  By diluting you low wines to 30% or so, it will give you a lower ABV and ability to make finer cuts, like this:

                Input your Pot still characteristics

                Initial Volume of Wash L
                Alcohol Content % by volume
                Initial Temperature C
                Power during Heat-up W
                Power during Distillation W
                %Internal Reflux %
                Time-step for calculation min


                Results

                Time to Heat up Still contents

                TimeTempCollectedPurityTotal CollectedTotal Purity

                As you can see, the overall  ABV after 200 minutes is 64% , which is almost ideal for aging on oak.   Of course keep in mind, your going to doing your cuts to all this so it wont come out exact....

                Harry and Sherman put together some excellent charts during a discussion we had on Whiskey making in Advanced Distillers.  This one gives you an idea of how diluting your low wines will give you a lower ABV in your final spirits run


                Also review this discussion starting with http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/41750  and read Harry' s Article on Dilution of Alcohol :

                http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Diluting_the_still_charge/

                Hope this helps.

                Vino es Veritas,

                Jim.

                 

                 

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "daddyman00126" <daddyman00126@...> wrote:
                >
                > I want to thank both you Jim and also Harry for your answers. One
                > final question about the spirit run. Forgive me if you have hit this
                > topic in the past but, why would I delute the low wines with water? I
                > have a pot still and am using propane for heat. I do not have to
                > worry running it dry, or do I?
                >
                > The best for last
                > BILL1BURP

              • daddyman00126
                Thanks for the info Jim I did put aside 2 gallons of backset from my last strip run. So I do have something to dilute my low wines with. I do like the ability
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 2, 2008
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                  Thanks for the info Jim

                  I did put aside 2 gallons of backset from my last strip run. So I do
                  have something to dilute my low wines with. I do like the ability to
                  add more flavor to my low wines, never thought about using backset to
                  do it thou.

                  Thanks for the tip

                  The best for last
                  BILL1BURP

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                  <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hey Bill,
                  >
                  > Good question. There are 2 basic reasons for doing this.
                  >
                  > The first is for saftety reasons, due to the highly explosive
                  properties
                  > of high ABV alcohol fumes. The second and main reason are to allow
                  > additional flavors to come through in making a whiskey. I forgot to
                  > tell you to use backset (sour mash) instead of water for dilution
                  and
                  > to add to these flavors in my first posting.
                  >
                  > The concept here, is that on the second (or third) distillation, you
                  > want to lower the ABV of the low wines so you wont get such a high
                  > ethanol percent on the spirits run. This allows more of the grain
                  > flavors to come through in your final product. To take this to
                  > extremes, if you used a reflux still and distilled up to azeotrophe
                  > (95.6%) ABV, you would get a neutral alcohol with NO flavors...
                  >
                  > If you review Tony's Pot still purity chart, at a 47% ABV level,
                  20
                  > liters would give you something like this:
                  >
                  >
                  > Input your Pot still characteristics
                  > Initial Volume of Wash L
                  > Alcohol Content % by volume
                  > Initial Temperature C
                  > Power during Heat-up W
                  > Power during Distillation W
                  > %Internal Reflux %
                  > Time-step for calculation min
                  >
                  > Results
                  > Time to Heat up Still contents
                  >
                  > Time Temp Collected Purity Total Collected Total Purity
                  >
                  > This would give you more alcohol and less flavors. By diluting you
                  low
                  > wines to 30% or so, it will give you a lower ABV and ability to make
                  > finer cuts, like this:
                  >
                  >
                  > Input your Pot still characteristics
                  > Initial Volume of Wash L
                  > Alcohol Content % by volume
                  > Initial Temperature C
                  > Power during Heat-up W
                  > Power during Distillation W
                  > %Internal Reflux %
                  > Time-step for calculation min
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Results
                  > Time to Heat up Still contents
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Time Temp Collected Purity Total Collected Total Purity
                  >
                  > As you can see, the overall ABV after 200 minutes is 64% , which is
                  > almost ideal for aging on oak. Of course keep in mind, your going
                  to
                  > doing your cuts to all this so it wont come out exact....
                  >
                  > Harry and Sherman put together some excellent charts during a
                  discussion
                  > we had on Whiskey making in Advanced Distillers. This one gives
                  you an
                  > idea of how diluting your low wines will give you a lower ABV in
                  your
                  > final spirits run
                  >
                  >
                  > Also review this discussion starting with
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/41750
                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/41750> and read
                  > Harry' s Article on Dilution of Alcohol :
                  >
                  > http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Diluting_the_still_charge/
                  > <http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Diluting_the_still_charge/>
                  >
                  > Hope this helps.
                  >
                  > Vino es Veritas,
                  >
                  > Jim.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "daddyman00126"
                  > <daddyman00126@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I want to thank both you Jim and also Harry for your answers. One
                  > > final question about the spirit run. Forgive me if you have hit
                  this
                  > > topic in the past but, why would I delute the low wines with
                  water? I
                  > > have a pot still and am using propane for heat. I do not have to
                  > > worry running it dry, or do I?
                  > >
                  > > The best for last
                  > > BILL1BURP
                  >
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