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2.5 or 3" column

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  • wilsotic
    Hi, I was about to get materials for a 3 reflux column when I was given a 5 foot piece of 2.5 . Would there be much difference in performance between the two
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 2, 2008
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      Hi,

      I was about to get materials for a 3" reflux column when I was given a
      5 foot piece of 2.5".

      Would there be much difference in performance between the two diameters?

      regards

      Wilson.
    • jamesonbeam1
      Hi Wilson, Heck, with the price of copper these days, take the dang stuff and dont worry about any differences. Just depends on how much and how fast you want
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 3, 2008
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        Hi Wilson,

        Heck, with the price of copper these days, take the dang stuff and dont
        worry about any differences. Just depends on how much and how fast you
        want to distill. But if you base your column and still design around
        2.5 inch, and save all that money, there shouldn't be much difference.

        Maybe some of the reflux techies around here can tell you the exact
        differences. But im sure 5 feet will give you enough extra length to
        play around with.

        Vino es Veritas,
        Jim.

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "wilsotic" <wilsotic@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > I was about to get materials for a 3" reflux column when I was given a
        > 5 foot piece of 2.5".
        >
        > Would there be much difference in performance between the two
        diameters?
        >
        > regards
        >
        > Wilson.
        >
      • fit_dude42
        I stand to be corrected here, but i thought i d have a crack anyways. As i understand it, the diameter of the tube just means you can distill more vapour per
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 6, 2008
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          I stand to be corrected here, but i thought i'd have a crack anyways.

          As i understand it, the diameter of the tube just means you can
          distill more vapour per hour IF you have a big enough heat source to
          push it and a big enough condenser to condense it. What i think i'm
          saying is, the height of the column and it's packing influences the
          purity, whereas the diameter of the column influences the flow rate.

          Corrections anyone?

          Cheers,

          Karl.



          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "wilsotic" <wilsotic@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > I was about to get materials for a 3" reflux column when I was given
          a
          > 5 foot piece of 2.5".
          >
          > Would there be much difference in performance between the two
          diameters?
          >
          > regards
          >
          > Wilson.
          >
        • abbababbaccc
          That s right. There s another thing though. The wider the column diameter the less efficient it gets. At 4 mark the efficiency starts to drop noticeably and
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 6, 2008
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            That's right. There's another thing though. The wider the column
            diameter the less efficient it gets. At 4" mark the efficiency starts
            to drop noticeably and the drop is some 15-25% when you switch from
            2" to 3". This can be mostly countered with better packing materials
            and reflux spreading techniques.

            Cheers, Riku

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "fit_dude42" <fit_dude42@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I stand to be corrected here, but i thought i'd have a crack
            anyways.
            >
            > As i understand it, the diameter of the tube just means you can
            > distill more vapour per hour IF you have a big enough heat source
            to
            > push it and a big enough condenser to condense it. What i think i'm
            > saying is, the height of the column and it's packing influences the
            > purity, whereas the diameter of the column influences the flow rate.
            >
            > Corrections anyone?
            >
            > Cheers,
            >
            > Karl.
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "wilsotic" <wilsotic@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi,
            > >
            > > I was about to get materials for a 3" reflux column when I was
            given
            > a
            > > 5 foot piece of 2.5".
            > >
            > > Would there be much difference in performance between the two
            > diameters?
            > >
            > > regards
            > >
            > > Wilson.
            > >
            >
          • wilsotic
            Riku, When you talk about the drop in efficiency, do you mean that the theoretical maximum drops from 95ish to about 80%? I had settled on using the 2.5 for
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 10, 2008
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              Riku,

              When you talk about the drop in efficiency, do you mean that the
              theoretical maximum drops from 95ish to about 80%? I had settled on
              using the 2.5" for my next column.

              Wilson.



              At 4" mark the efficiency starts
              > to drop noticeably and the drop is some 15-25% when you switch from
              > 2" to 3". This can be mostly countered with better packing materials
              > and reflux spreading techniques.
              >
              > Cheers, Riku
            • abbababbaccc
              No, I mean that you need to use higher reflux ratio to achieve 95.6% ABV. This means that while you can double the power when switching from 2 to 3 you can
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 10, 2008
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                No, I mean that you need to use higher reflux ratio to achieve 95.6%
                ABV. This means that while you can double the power when switching
                from 2" to 3" you can not double the speed while retaining the
                quality. Say, you get 1 liter / hour 95.6% stuff with 2" and 1kW.
                Switch to 3" and 2kW and you'll get only about 1.6-1.8 liters / hour
                at 95.6% ABV.

                Cheers, Riku

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "wilsotic" <wilsotic@...> wrote:
                >
                > Riku,
                >
                > When you talk about the drop in efficiency, do you mean that the
                > theoretical maximum drops from 95ish to about 80%? I had settled on
                > using the 2.5" for my next column.
                >
                > Wilson.
                >
                >
                >
                > At 4" mark the efficiency starts
                > > to drop noticeably and the drop is some 15-25% when you switch from
                > > 2" to 3". This can be mostly countered with better packing materials
                > > and reflux spreading techniques.
                > >
                > > Cheers, Riku
                >
              • billy.turf
                ... Riku, Can you elaborate on this? I mean better packing, ok, I get that, but what do you mean when you say reflux spreading techniques? Billy
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 11, 2008
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                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                  <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > That's right. There's another thing though. The wider the column
                  > diameter the less efficient it gets. At 4" mark the efficiency starts
                  > to drop noticeably and the drop is some 15-25% when you switch from
                  > 2" to 3". This can be mostly countered with better packing materials
                  > and reflux spreading techniques.
                  >
                  > Cheers, Riku
                  >

                  Riku,
                  Can you elaborate on this? I mean better packing, ok, I get that, but
                  what do you mean when you say reflux spreading techniques?
                  Billy
                • mavnkaf
                  ... wrote: snip ... Riku, Can you elaborate on this? I mean better packing, ok, I get that, but what do you mean when you say reflux
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 11, 2008
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                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "billy.turf" <billy.turf@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                    > <abbababbaccc@> wrote:
                    > >
                    <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
                    snip
                    > This can be mostly countered with better packing materials
                    > and reflux spreading techniques.
                    >
                    > Cheers, Riku
                    >

                    Riku,
                    Can you elaborate on this? I mean better packing, ok, I get that, but
                    what do you mean when you say reflux spreading techniques?
                    Billy

                    ………………………………………………………………………..

                    Hi Billy,

                    I think what Riku is trying to say is, as you go wider with the
                    column width, channeling in the packing becomes more of a problem.
                    So some thought must go into evenly redistributing the descending
                    liquids. Theres probably other issues I'm not aware of but I'm sure
                    Riku will spark up soon.

                    Cheers
                    Marc
                  • Zapata Vive
                    I think he means making sure the reflux is fed back to the column either in the middle, or maybe even in a few points near the middle. This prevents
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 12, 2008
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                      I think he means making sure the reflux is fed back to the column either in the middle, or maybe even in a few points near the middle.  This prevents channeling of the reflux down the sides.  Well, in 2" stills I know the point is to get it away from the sides, but maybe with these larger diameters there is another issue...
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: mavnkaf
                      Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 2:46 AM
                      Subject: [new_distillers] Re: 2.5 or 3" column

                      --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "billy.turf" <billy.turf@ ...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "abbababbaccc"
                      > <abbababbaccc@ > wrote:
                      > >
                      <abbababbaccc@ ...> wrote:
                      snip
                      > This can be mostly countered with better packing materials
                      > and reflux spreading techniques.
                      >
                      > Cheers, Riku
                      >

                      Riku,
                      Can you elaborate on this? I mean better packing, ok, I get that, but
                      what do you mean when you say reflux spreading techniques?
                      Billy

                      ………………………………………………………………………..

                      Hi Billy,

                      I think what Riku is trying to say is, as you go wider with the
                      column width, channeling in the packing becomes more of a problem.
                      So some thought must go into evenly redistributing the descending
                      liquids. Theres probably other issues I'm not aware of but I'm sure
                      Riku will spark up soon.

                      Cheers
                      Marc

                    • abbababbaccc
                      In all columns the vapor has a tendency to find it s route at the middle and push the reflux to the sides. The wider the diameter the more pronounced this
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 12, 2008
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                        In all columns the vapor has a tendency to find it's route at the
                        middle and push the reflux to the sides. The wider the diameter the
                        more pronounced this gets. A simple fix is to use reflux centering
                        rings or collars. For wider columns (4" and up) different methods of
                        spreading the reflux can be employed. How it is done depends on the
                        packing mainly. My experiments in this area are still in progress so I
                        don't have any particular design to recommend, but for hobby sized
                        columns collars work just fine.

                        Important things to remember with collars:
                        Do not have them touch the packing
                        Have big enough opening in the collar to prevent choking

                        Cheers, Riku

                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mavnkaf" <mavnkaf@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "billy.turf" <billy.turf@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                        > > <abbababbaccc@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > <abbababbaccc@> wrote:
                        > snip
                        > > This can be mostly countered with better packing materials
                        > > and reflux spreading techniques.
                        > >
                        > > Cheers, Riku
                        > >
                        >
                        > Riku,
                        > Can you elaborate on this? I mean better packing, ok, I get that, but
                        > what do you mean when you say reflux spreading techniques?
                        > Billy
                        >
                        > ………………………………………………………………………..
                        >
                        > Hi Billy,
                        >
                        > I think what Riku is trying to say is, as you go wider with the
                        > column width, channeling in the packing becomes more of a problem.
                        > So some thought must go into evenly redistributing the descending
                        > liquids. Theres probably other issues I'm not aware of but I'm sure
                        > Riku will spark up soon.
                        >
                        > Cheers
                        > Marc
                        >
                      • kirt
                        hi riku. my father has a 10 foot by 6 inch section of stainless pipe. ive tried to convince him that hi 2 inch still is just fine but he wants to build a big
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jun 15, 2008
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                          hi riku.

                          my father has a 10 foot by 6 inch section of stainless pipe. ive tried
                          to convince him that hi 2 inch still is just fine but he wants to
                          "build a big one" not so much for large quantities but for speed in
                          distillation. it would be a larger scale of the 2 inch one he
                          currently has.
                          he will build it no matter the discussions we have and id love to help
                          him do it the best way all of you more experienced builders would do.

                          please all advise on this build for he is chomping at the bit to get
                          going at it.

                          he has a TIG welder and is good at fabrication parts.


                          seeking help
                          kirt

                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                          <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > That's right. There's another thing though. The wider the column
                          > diameter the less efficient it gets. At 4" mark the efficiency starts
                          > to drop noticeably and the drop is some 15-25% when you switch from
                          > 2" to 3". This can be mostly countered with better packing materials
                          > and reflux spreading techniques.
                          >
                          > Cheers, Riku
                        • abbababbaccc
                          For column of that size I d recommend some laboratory type packing, propak should work http://www.cannoninstrument.com/propak.htm You could get by with copper
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jun 15, 2008
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                            For column of that size I'd recommend some laboratory type packing,
                            propak should work http://www.cannoninstrument.com/propak.htm

                            You could get by with copper mesh + collars but I have no data about
                            that in such large columns.

                            About speed, it will still take two hours to get rid of heads due to
                            the continuous formation of ethyl acetate so you can add that to your
                            speed calculations.

                            Cheers, Riku


                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "kirt" <kirtgk@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > hi riku.
                            >
                            > my father has a 10 foot by 6 inch section of stainless pipe. ive tried
                            > to convince him that hi 2 inch still is just fine but he wants to
                            > "build a big one" not so much for large quantities but for speed in
                            > distillation. it would be a larger scale of the 2 inch one he
                            > currently has.
                            > he will build it no matter the discussions we have and id love to help
                            > him do it the best way all of you more experienced builders would do.
                            >
                            > please all advise on this build for he is chomping at the bit to get
                            > going at it.
                            >
                            > he has a TIG welder and is good at fabrication parts.
                            >
                            >
                            > seeking help
                            > kirt
                            >
                            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                            > <abbababbaccc@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > That's right. There's another thing though. The wider the column
                            > > diameter the less efficient it gets. At 4" mark the efficiency starts
                            > > to drop noticeably and the drop is some 15-25% when you switch from
                            > > 2" to 3". This can be mostly countered with better packing materials
                            > > and reflux spreading techniques.
                            > >
                            > > Cheers, Riku
                            >
                          • Link D'Antoni
                            Riku,    Wouldn t he be better off installing plates (trays) instead of using packing for a 6 inch?   Link ... From: abbababbaccc
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jun 16, 2008
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                              Riku,

                               

                               Wouldn't he be better off installing plates (trays) instead of using packing for a 6 inch?

                               

                              Link

                              --- On Mon, 6/16/08, abbababbaccc <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:

                              From: abbababbaccc <abbababbaccc@...>
                              Subject: [new_distillers] Re: 2.5 or 3" column
                              To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:43 AM

                              For column of that size I'd recommend some laboratory type packing,
                              propak should work http://www.cannonin strument. com/propak. htm

                              You could get by with copper mesh + collars but I have no data about
                              that in such large columns.

                              About speed, it will still take two hours to get rid of heads due to
                              the continuous formation of ethyl acetate so you can add that to your
                              speed calculations.

                              Cheers, Riku

                              --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "kirt" <kirtgk@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > hi riku.
                              >
                              > my father has a 10 foot by 6 inch section of stainless pipe. ive tried
                              > to convince him that hi 2 inch still is just fine but he wants to
                              > "build a big one" not so much for large quantities but for speed in
                              > distillation. it would be a larger scale of the 2 inch one he
                              > currently has.
                              > he will build it no matter the discussions we have and id love to help
                              > him do it the best way all of you more experienced builders would do.
                              >
                              > please all advise on this build for he is chomping at the bit to get
                              > going at it.
                              >
                              > he has a TIG welder and is good at fabrication parts.
                              >
                              >
                              > seeking help
                              > kirt
                              >
                              > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "abbababbaccc"
                              > <abbababbaccc@ > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > That's right. There's another thing though. The wider the column
                              > > diameter the less efficient it gets. At 4" mark the efficiency starts
                              > > to drop noticeably and the drop is some 15-25% when you switch from
                              > > 2" to 3". This can be mostly countered with better packing materials
                              > > and reflux spreading techniques.
                              > >
                              > > Cheers, Riku
                              >


                            • abbababbaccc
                              HETP with trays is much higher than with propak or similar laboratory grade packing. Unless he has unlimited length of pipe and unlimited time to do those
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jun 16, 2008
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                                HETP with trays is much higher than with propak or similar laboratory
                                grade packing. Unless he has unlimited length of pipe and unlimited
                                time to do those plates, it's better to go with good random packing.
                                If it is financial issue and he has material for the plates and time
                                to make them then they should give adequate results with 3 meter
                                column. Whether it be buble cap or perforated plates you need to do
                                the math to size them properly. Also, plates create pressure in the
                                column and inside the boiler - are you ready to deal with that?

                                Cheers, Riku


                                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Link D'Antoni <link2d@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Riku,
                                >  
                                >  Wouldn't he be better off installing plates (trays) instead
                                of using packing for a 6 inch?
                                >  
                                > Link
                                >
                                > --- On Mon, 6/16/08, abbababbaccc abbababbaccc@... wrote:
                                >
                                > From: abbababbaccc abbababbaccc@...
                                > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: 2.5 or 3" column
                                > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 12:43 AM
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > For column of that size I'd recommend some laboratory type packing,
                                > propak should work http://www.cannonin strument. com/propak. htm
                                >
                                > You could get by with copper mesh + collars but I have no data about
                                > that in such large columns.
                                >
                                > About speed, it will still take two hours to get rid of heads due to
                                > the continuous formation of ethyl acetate so you can add that to your
                                > speed calculations.
                                >
                                > Cheers, Riku
                                >
                                > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "kirt" kirtgk@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > > hi riku.
                                > >
                                > > my father has a 10 foot by 6 inch section of stainless pipe.
                                ive tried
                                > > to convince him that hi 2 inch still is just fine but he wants to
                                > > "build a big one" not so much for large quantities but for speed in
                                > > distillation. it would be a larger scale of the 2 inch one he
                                > > currently has.
                                > > he will build it no matter the discussions we have and id love
                                to help
                                > > him do it the best way all of you more experienced builders
                                would do.
                                > >
                                > > please all advise on this build for he is chomping at the bit
                                to get
                                > > going at it.
                                > >
                                > > he has a TIG welder and is good at fabrication parts.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > seeking help
                                > > kirt
                                > >
                              • kirt
                                thanks riku and all the others that pitched in. he may be interested in the plates (bubble cap type) as he has seen these in operation. not sure if he has the
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jun 16, 2008
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                                  thanks riku and all the others that pitched in. he may be interested
                                  in the plates (bubble cap type) as he has seen these in operation. not
                                  sure if he has the ability to make them accurately though. i
                                  personally like the recommended random packing that the link riku
                                  provided shows. ill send him all this info and keep you all posted.

                                  is there any problems with using the stainless steel random packing
                                  from the boiler half way up and then the copper mesh the rest of the way?
                                  my dad did say he wanted copper in the vapour path.


                                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                                  <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > For column of that size I'd recommend some laboratory type packing,
                                  > propak should work http://www.cannoninstrument.com/propak.htm
                                  >
                                  > You could get by with copper mesh + collars but I have no data about
                                  > that in such large columns.
                                  >
                                  > About speed, it will still take two hours to get rid of heads due to
                                  > the continuous formation of ethyl acetate so you can add that to your
                                  > speed calculations.
                                  >
                                  > Cheers, Riku
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "kirt" <kirtgk@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > hi riku.
                                  > >
                                  > > my father has a 10 foot by 6 inch section of stainless pipe. ive tried
                                  > > to convince him that hi 2 inch still is just fine but he wants to
                                  > > "build a big one" not so much for large quantities but for speed in
                                  > > distillation. it would be a larger scale of the 2 inch one he
                                  > > currently has.
                                  > > he will build it no matter the discussions we have and id love to help
                                  > > him do it the best way all of you more experienced builders would do.
                                  > >
                                  > > please all advise on this build for he is chomping at the bit to get
                                  > > going at it.
                                  > >
                                  > > he has a TIG welder and is good at fabrication parts.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > seeking help
                                  > > kirt
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                                  > > <abbababbaccc@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > That's right. There's another thing though. The wider the column
                                  > > > diameter the less efficient it gets. At 4" mark the efficiency
                                  starts
                                  > > > to drop noticeably and the drop is some 15-25% when you switch from
                                  > > > 2" to 3". This can be mostly countered with better packing
                                  materials
                                  > > > and reflux spreading techniques.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Cheers, Riku
                                  > >
                                  >
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