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Jim's Version of Econ-o-Wash (was) Re: DAP

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  • jamesonbeam1
    Hi Harry, I took your advice and reduced the plant food amount to 3 tablespoons to start. This wash began a bit slower then the first 3 batches, using 4
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 17, 2008
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      Hi Harry,

      I took your advice and reduced the plant food amount to 3 tablespoons
      to start. This wash began a bit slower then the first 3 batches,
      using 4 tablespoons of the 24-8-16, but seems to be doing fine.

      Sorry, didnt respond sooner, but been kinda busy (dont you just love
      Saturday nights with a full moon :):). Also posted the original
      message with full contents (hope ya dont mind - was many posts ago,
      so people know whats going on).

      Anyway, would like to clarify some of the reasons why Im using my
      ingredients vs. what you suggested. These are from your "666" wash
      posted, and my following comments:

      "YOUR INGREDIENTS" / -MY COMMENTS:

      1. "12 kg Raw Sugar (has trace molasses, light brown)"
      -Raw sugar is about 3 times the price of cane sugar up here and ive
      cut the recipe in 1/2 to 25 or so liters. (using 15 lbs. cane for
      higher abv - also the Rice Kripsies contain sugars).

      2. "280g in total of DYG (Dried Yeast Granules, Lowan Bakers yeast or
      similar, NOT Turbo types)"
      -Since Im shooting for a higher abv (16.5% or so), Im using EC-1118
      trub from the last wash (approx. 1 gallon), instead of fresh bakers
      yeast.

      3. "140g Boiled DYG (1/2 the total Dried Yeast Granules, see note #1)"
      -same idea but using 3 cups of boiled trub from last fermentation for
      nutrients.

      4. "50 g Vegemite (1 heaped ta/sp, any similar edible yeast-based
      extract, see note #2)"
      -Since I live up North here, cannot find Vegemite, promite, marmite
      or other yeast spreads. This is why I substituted Rice Krispies and
      vitamin tablets for the reasons stated in Note 2.

      5. "40 g Magnesium Sulphate (1 heaped ta/sp Epsom Salts, see note #3)"
      -Agree, do exact same.

      6. "200 ml or 1 cup tomato paste (substitute tomato sauce, ketchup,
      any similar, see note #4)
      -I belive the Rice Krispies and vitamin tablets suppliment same
      nutrients per note 4.

      7. "20 g complete plant food fertilizer (3 t/sp, see note #5)"
      -Using 3 TSB. now of the 24-8-16 for NPK per note #5.

      8. "50 litres water"
      -Cut recipe to 22-25 liters (a bit more then 6 gallons).

      9. "140 g reconstituted DYG for innoculation aka pitching (1/2 the
      total, see above)"
      -Why im using a gallon of EC-1118 Trub (maybe a bit excess).

      10."Bicarbonate of Soda if required (see note #6)"
      -Using additional sour mash from still to adjust pH level, or the
      Bicarb if pH is too low.

      -I still recommend aerating for the first 5 - 6 hours though, since
      not sure how much of the original yeast population survived from
      previous wash (however, this does increase the lag time, but the
      increased population will decrease overall fermentation time).

      Please let me know if you see anything wrong (or anyone else reading
      this).

      Thanks Harry.

      Vino es Veritas,
      Jim.

      ________________________________________________________

      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
      <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:

      NOW MINE (version of the Econ-o-Wash and modified from some
      experiments and Sherman's recipe):

      After much experimentation - Jim's Recipe (for a 6 - 7 gallon wash):
      (note: this makes neutral alcohol - sour mash whiskey is another
      story)

      -15 pounds white cane suger (inverted)

      - 1 box of Rice Krispies - off brand - proides solids, nutrients,
      folic acid (iron), vitamin B complex etc. (boil up with sugar)

      -5 Tablespoons of Expert Gardeners Plant food (24 - 8 - 16) Note:
      much higher in nitrogen and potassium then Arthur Yates. (Available
      at Wal-Mart for 3.95 per 1.5 lbs.) Provides Nitrogen, Phosphates and
      Potassium.

      -1 tablespoon of Epsom salt - Magnesium sulfate. (any brand)

      -2 tablets of any multi-vitamin. (i use One-a-Day).

      -3 cups of leftover trub from last fermentation - boiled (for
      lipids, acids and the Ghost yeast hulls) - or use 3 tablespoons of
      yeast nutrient.

      -2 fresh packets of Lalvin EC-1118 yeast or 1 gallon of Trub
      (leftover from last fermentation using EC-1118 yeast or similar - as
      long as its active - meaning still bubbling)

      Procedure:

      -Mix sugar in 2 gallons sour mash (or 2 tablespoons acid blend with
      2 gallons water) and boil for about 20 minutes to invert. (in a 3-4
      gallon pot - stir to keep from boiling over or burning).

      -Add Rice Krispies and old trub (or yeast nutrients) and mix till it
      turns to a mash - Let cool to about 30C.

      -Add this to primary fermenter along with EC-1118 yeast - activated
      first of course (or the fresh trub - 1 gallon).

      -boil up plant food, vitamins, epson salts in a cup and add.

      -fill with water to make up 6 - 7 gallons (over whats alreay in).

      Note: check the pH and make sure its around 5.4 - 5.8 or adjust.

      -Now take an aerator-like a pump and stone (I use a matress pump and
      plastic line) and aerate the hell out of it for 5 to 6 hours.

      -Cover with either a clean plastic garbage bag or cloth and STAND
      BACK.

      -Stir up cap every so ofter - lasts about 3 days.

      I would appreciate any feedback from ya'll regarding this recipe.

      Vino es Veritas,
      Jim.
      _________________________________________________________________

      <--- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Harry wrote:>

      Jim,

      I think you may have a bit too much fertilizer in it which may cause
      distilling problems (schweizers reagent). The object is to supply
      just enough nitrogen that it will be all used when fermentation is
      complete, and not undershoot to cause a stuck ferment.

      Your recipe has similarities to one I did some time ago which I have
      had great results from. It bypasses the need for aeration and still
      finishes in three days. It does this by cutting the lag time to 20
      minutes as it doesn't require the yeast to be grown up. There's
      enough healthy yeast right there at pitching.

      Anyways, here 'tis for comparison. I call it Recipe #666 (for the
      number of the beast). :)
      ========================================


      Recipe #666: Bakers Yeast and Raw Sugar Mash


      Ingredients:

      12kg Raw Sugar (has trace molasses, light brown)

      280g in total of DYG (Dried Yeast Granules, Lowan Bakers yeast or
      similar, NOT Turbo types)

      140g Boiled DYG (1/2 the total Dried Yeast Granules, see note #1)

      50 g Vegemite (1 heaped ta/sp, any similar edible yeast-based
      extract, see note #2)

      40 g Magnesium Sulphate (1 heaped ta/sp Epsom Salts, see note #3)

      200 ml or 1 cup tomato paste (substitute tomato sauce, ketchup, any
      similar, see note #4)

      20 g complete plant food fertilizer (3 t/sp, see note #5)

      50 litres water

      140 g reconstituted DYG for innoculation aka pitching (1/2 the total,
      see above)

      Bicarbonate of Soda if required (see note #6)



      Method:

      Boil 140g DYG in 1 litre of water for 5 minutes. Use an egg-whisk to
      blend, much like making gravy.

      In a 60 litre capacity fermenter, put 10 litres of hot water, sugar,
      vegemite, epsom salts, tomato paste. Stir vigorously with a paddle
      until all the sugar is dissolved. Add the boiled yeast and mix it
      in. Add the remaining 40 litres of cool water (not cold, about
      20-25 degC). This should bring the wort to about 32 deg.C, just
      right for innoculation.

      Check the pH with a digital meter or litmus indicator paper. It
      should be in the 5 to 5.5 range. If it is lower (too acidic) add 2
      t/sp of Sodium Bicarbonate and stir in (see note #6). Record an OG
      (Original Gravity) reading with a hydrometer. Cover the fermenting
      vessel for now with a towel.

      To reconstitute the DYG yeast for pitching, use a 10 litre bucket and
      combine 1/2 litre of tepid water (40 deg.C), 140g DYG and 1/2 cup of
      your wort liquid (see note #7). Stir vigorously making sure all the
      yeast is dissolved. Cover and let stand for 20-30 minutes. It will
      have foamed up to 3/4 of the bucket after this time. Stir it up
      again to liquefy all the foam, then pitch it into your wort. Give
      the wort a stir to distribute the yeast. Cover the wort fermenter
      vessel with a towel for about 2 hours, then fit a lid and air-lock
      (see note #8).

      This fermentation should work off in as little as 3 days. When
      activity slows below 1 bubble every 10 seconds in the airlock, it is
      finished. Remove enough wash in a flask to take your FG reading
      (finishing Gravity). Cover it and shake carefully before you put the
      hydrometer in. This will de-gas the sample for correct reading. If
      there are any bubbles sticking to the hydrometer, remove them by
      spinning the instrument in the sample. Any measurement at or below
      1.000 is full attenuation to dryness. Above this mark means there
      is residual sugars left, which can cause later problems.

      Distillation of residual sugars can cause excessive foaming and foul
      the run (called 'puking' in pot still runs). In fractioning or
      reflux type stills it can cause foaming, packing and plate fouling
      (blockages) and a burnt taste throughout the distillate.

      Now take you recorded OG and FG readings and plug them into this
      equation:

      Potential Alcohol by Volume (ABV):

      (OG - FG) x 131 --> ABV
      ====================================================================


      Notes:

      #1. Boiling kills the yeast, bursts the cells and spills their
      contents (vitamins, minerals, lipids and other nutrients) into the
      broth. The product is a ready-made rich yeast food at a fraction of
      the cost of the commercial products. You can do similar by taking a
      cup or two of the spent yeast-cake from a previous fermentation and
      boiling it as indicated.

      #2. Edible yeast-based spreads e.g. vegemite, promite, marmite
      contain vitamins B1 or thiamine, B3 or niacin aka nicotinic acid, B9
      or folate , trace elements calcium, sodium, zinc (important for yeast
      cell division) and about 25% of its mass as protein, which gives
      the live yeast something to cling to in suspension during
      fermentation. The protein is also essential to the magnesium ions
      (see note#3). Overall, it's an augmentation of the nutrients
      available from the killed DYG.

      #3. Magnesium ions are essential signalling regulators that stimulate
      yeast growth and more importantly, they trigger yeast to manufacture
      enzymes which in turn starts the sugar breakdown and conversion
      process. Magnesium ions cannot cross the yeast cell membrane in
      their existing form. They need available protein to combine with as
      a carrier. When available magnesium is limited, yeast shows markedly
      reduced growth rates. This may be a cause of poor, sluggish or stuck
      fermentations.

      #4. Tomato paste is another source of essential vitamins and minerals
      (particularly vit.C, a catalyst in mineral uptake by yeast). It also
      contains moderate quantities of protein (10g-15g per cup) which as
      mentioned before is essential to magnesium uptake.

      #5. All plants need nitrogen for growth. Yeast is a plant. Any good
      NPK plantfood fertilizer will work (Nitrogen Phosphorus Potassium
      (K)). The all Purpose granulated types also have bonuses of Calcium,
      Magnesium and Zinc in good supply, which further ensures yeast has
      all the required growth and metabolism elements necessary. Limited
      nitrogen supply is a key factor in fermentations stopping short of
      completion (stuck ferment, or residual sugars which may burn in a
      distillation).

      #6. Sodium Bicarbonate (baking soda) is an alkaline buffer used to
      raise the pH of acidic worts. If you have used boiled yeast cake
      from a previous fermentation (see note #1), then the pH of the wort
      before fermentation may well be low, due to residual acids in the
      yeast cake. If this is the case, add 2 t/sp Bicarb to a 50 litre
      wort to bring the pH into the correct range (about pH5.5).

      #7. Warm water and diluted wort will condition the yeast on uptake to
      the Temperature and ingredient mix (in other words the environment)
      that the yeast will find when it is pitched into the wort. This
      eliminates the chance of shock which can delay or even kill
      fermentation.

      #8. Covering the fermenter loosely with a towel during the first 2
      hours allows the yeast cap to form and still get access to a little
      air for growth. This combined with the large initial yeast pitch
      reduces the lag phase to as short as 20 minutes. A feed of air or
      oxygen is not required and indeed that route can potentially cause
      problems by introducing contaminants such as bacteria). There is
      enough healthy yeast in the initial pitch that further cell division
      is not necessary, unlike in other recipes which use minimal yeast and
      oxygen to grow up the yeast. It may however be necessary to use a
      wort chiller or wet towels/fans or frozen water bottles to keep the
      wort temperature down below 32 deg.C during the first 24 hours.
      Whether temperature control is necessary is largely dependent on the
      ambient temperature where you are. In the tropics it is mandatory.




      H.Jackson 2006


      Slainte!
      regards Harry
      http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/
    • Harry
      ... tablespoons ... ........You can get the same result by adding a good cup of molasses to your 15 lbs. white cane sugar. Raw sugar these days is not like
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 17, 2008
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        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
        <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Harry,
        >
        > I took your advice and reduced the plant food amount to 3
        tablespoons
        > to start. This wash began a bit slower then the first 3 batches,
        > using 4 tablespoons of the 24-8-16, but seems to be doing fine.
        >
        > Sorry, didnt respond sooner, but been kinda busy (dont you just love
        > Saturday nights with a full moon :):). Also posted the original
        > message with full contents (hope ya dont mind - was many posts ago,
        > so people know whats going on).
        >
        > Anyway, would like to clarify some of the reasons why Im using my
        > ingredients vs. what you suggested. These are from your "666" wash
        > posted, and my following comments:
        >
        > "YOUR INGREDIENTS" / -MY COMMENTS:
        >
        > 1. "12 kg Raw Sugar (has trace molasses, light brown)"
        > -Raw sugar is about 3 times the price of cane sugar up here and ive
        > cut the recipe in 1/2 to 25 or so liters. (using 15 lbs. cane for
        > higher abv - also the Rice Kripsies contain sugars).
        >

        ........You can get the same result by adding a good cup of molasses
        to your 15 lbs. white cane sugar. Raw sugar these days is not like
        the old days. Sugar refineries find it easier to bleach the lot into
        white sugar, then add back a measured amount of molasses to make the
        raw sugar for market. Sounds silly I know, but it's a fact.


        > 2. "280g in total of DYG (Dried Yeast Granules, Lowan Bakers yeast
        or
        > similar, NOT Turbo types)"
        > -Since Im shooting for a higher abv (16.5% or so), Im using EC-1118
        > trub from the last wash (approx. 1 gallon), instead of fresh bakers
        > yeast.


        ......Well that's fine, JB. But it's probably the reason why your
        mash didn't fire like mine does in 20 minutes. Fresh healthy prime
        yeast will always kick in quicker than 2nd or 3rd or subsequent
        generation adult yeasts. Has to do with mutations and viability, and
        in reused yeasts the issue of sexual reproducing vs asexual budding.
        Use your Maltese Falcons ref. to see about this, or there's a few
        other good online sources. One I recommend is Tony's
        http://homedistiller.org/ferment.htm
        Go down to the section on reusing yeast.


        > 3. "140g Boiled DYG (1/2 the total Dried Yeast Granules, see note
        #1)"
        > -same idea but using 3 cups of boiled trub from last fermentation
        for
        > nutrients.

        Yep. That'll work also. The only thing to watch out for there (if
        you're using trub several generations old) is the possible
        accumulation of yeast metabolism byproducts which new killed yeasts
        don't contain. You may finish up with flavours you didn't expect.
        You may also get something quite desirable. Only experimentation and
        KEEPING NOTES for repeatability will guide you.

        >
        > 4. "50 g Vegemite (1 heaped ta/sp, any similar edible yeast-based
        > extract, see note #2)"
        > -Since I live up North here, cannot find Vegemite, promite, marmite
        > or other yeast spreads. This is why I substituted Rice Krispies and
        > vitamin tablets for the reasons stated in Note 2.


        ...........You don't really need it if you're using boiled trub (as
        long as it's not too old, like 10 or 12 generations). Check out
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/message/24313
        for what's in commercial vegemite & why boiled yeast is just as good
        (or better).



        > 5. "40 g Magnesium Sulphate (1 heaped ta/sp Epsom Salts, see note
        #3)"
        > -Agree, do exact same.
        >
        > 6. "200 ml or 1 cup tomato paste (substitute tomato sauce, ketchup,
        > any similar, see note #4)
        > -I belive the Rice Krispies and vitamin tablets suppliment same
        > nutrients per note 4.


        ..............Yes, but is there enough protein in your mash for
        magnesium uptake by the yeast?


        >
        > 7. "20 g complete plant food fertilizer (3 t/sp, see note #5)"
        > -Using 3 TSB. now of the 24-8-16 for NPK per note #5.


        .........I use 3 teaspoons. It seems to be enough for the type of
        yeast I'm feeding. Your EC-1118, the killer strain may need more.



        >
        > 8. "50 litres water"
        > -Cut recipe to 22-25 liters (a bit more then 6 gallons).
        >
        > 9. "140 g reconstituted DYG for innoculation aka pitching (1/2 the
        > total, see above)"
        > -Why im using a gallon of EC-1118 Trub (maybe a bit excess).
        >
        > 10."Bicarbonate of Soda if required (see note #6)"
        > -Using additional sour mash from still to adjust pH level, or the
        > Bicarb if pH is too low.


        ......Nothing wrong with that. Commercials use sulphuric or
        hydrochloric acid, or backset. The important thing is to get the pH
        right by measurement.


        >
        > -I still recommend aerating for the first 5 - 6 hours though, since
        > not sure how much of the original yeast population survived from
        > previous wash (however, this does increase the lag time, but the
        > increased population will decrease overall fermentation time).



        ..........I think that's why I don't have this issue, because of the
        large charge of new pitching yeast I use. Your trub may not have
        many viable cells, but you can be sure that what you do have
        surviving will be hardy critters. Either way the end result seems to
        be ok.

        >
        > Please let me know if you see anything wrong (or anyone else reading
        > this).
        >
        > Thanks Harry.
        >
        > Vino es Veritas,
        > Jim.
        >


        You're welcome, Jim.

        Slainte!
        regards Harry
      • jamesonbeam1
        Thanks again Harry - digesting all your comments right now... Only problem I have - if I tried to use 280g of fresh EC-1118 for every batch of wash, with 5
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 17, 2008
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          Thanks again Harry - digesting all your comments right now...

          Only problem I have - if I tried to use 280g of fresh EC-1118 for
          every batch of wash, with 5 gram packets costing .85 cents each;

          Would have to re-finance this friggin house, just to support my
          addiction ROTF... (Thinking of switchin to nose candy (j/J).

          Vino es Veritas,
          Jim.

          And, BTW Harry, And to All....

          ERIN GO BRAUGH and HAPPY ST. PATTIES DAY !!!!!!!!!!!!

          To my friends, I lift a glass: "May ye troubles be as few and far
          betwix as ye Grandma's Teeth in the upcomming year."




          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...>
          wrote:

          > 2. "280g in total of DYG (Dried Yeast Granules, Lowan Bakers yeast
          > or similar, NOT Turbo types)"
          > -Since Im shooting for a higher abv (16.5% or so), Im using EC-1118
          trub from the last wash (approx. 1 gallon), instead of fresh bakers
          yeast.

          >
          > ......Well that's fine, JB. But it's probably the reason why your
          > mash didn't fire like mine does in 20 minutes. Fresh healthy prime
          > yeast will always kick in quicker than 2nd or 3rd or subsequent
          > generation adult yeasts. Has to do with mutations and viability,
          and in reused yeasts the issue of sexual reproducing vs asexual
          budding.
          > Use your Maltese Falcons ref. to see about this, or there's a few
          > other good online sources. One I recommend is Tony's
          > http://homedistiller.org/ferment.htm
          > Go down to the section on reusing yeast.

          _snip__
        • jamesonbeam1
          And to my enemies, I lift a glass: Here s to you and here s to me, and if by chance we disagree, Then screw off to you and here;s to Me.! ERIN GO BRAUGH and
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 17, 2008
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            And to my enemies, I lift a glass: "Here's to you and here's to me, and
            if by chance we disagree, Then screw off to you and here;s to Me.!"

            ERIN GO BRAUGH and HAPPY ST. PATTIES DAY !!!

            Vino es Veritas,
            Jim.

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
            <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
            > And, BTW Harry, And to All....
            >
            > ERIN GO BRAUGH and HAPPY ST. PATTIES DAY !!!!!!!!!!!!
            >
            > To my friends, I lift a glass: "May ye troubles be as few and far
            > betwix as ye Grandma's Teeth in the upcomming year."
          • burrows206
            Hi Jim, I use those little packets that you re on about and if you aren t in a hurry they will multiply and grow in your ferment if you stage feed your sugar.
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 17, 2008
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              Hi Jim,
              I use those little packets that you're on about and if you
              aren't in a hurry they will multiply and grow in your ferment if you
              stage feed your sugar. I think what Harry is on about is the fresh
              yeast that commercial bakers use. I see them in "E.leclerc" one of
              the main supermarkets chains here in France, they sell it like in
              small ¼ pound (or about 110grams) blocks about a 2.00 euros or
              approx. $2.00. (the French word "levure" is yeast in English).
              Your best bet is go to your local commercial bread maker
              factory/business or homemade pizza bar and talk nicely to the owner
              or manager. And they will cut a good size wedge of live active yeast
              off for you enough to last you some time. As to how it's how to
              store it I think Harry is your man in this respect his family is/was
              into the baker/bread making profession if memory serve me right.
              Hence I think his great, great, grand dad's interest in yeast related
              crafts i.e. distilling and making a good rum.
              From what Harry once said in a posting a good while back, was that
              when a good rising bread was made, a chunk of the dough was routinely
              held back to make another batch the next day and so on and the bakers
              reputation would flourish if it was a good batch. Now watch Harry
              slap my waist for misquoting him
              God I love this hobby you go out into the local community and meet
              such a diverse cross section of people in pursuit of a good brew
              Geoff

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
              <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks again Harry - digesting all your comments right now...
              >
              > Only problem I have - if I tried to use 280g of fresh EC-1118 for
              > every batch of wash, with 5 gram packets costing .85 cents each;
              >
              > Would have to re-finance this friggin house, just to support my
              > addiction ROTF... (Thinking of switchin to nose candy (j/J).
              >
              > Vino es Veritas,
              > Jim.
              >
              > And, BTW Harry, And to All....
              >
              > ERIN GO BRAUGH and HAPPY ST. PATTIES DAY !!!!!!!!!!!!
              >
              > To my friends, I lift a glass: "May ye troubles be as few and far
              > betwix as ye Grandma's Teeth in the upcomming year."
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@>
              > wrote:
              >
              > > 2. "280g in total of DYG (Dried Yeast Granules, Lowan Bakers
              yeast
              > > or similar, NOT Turbo types)"
              > > -Since Im shooting for a higher abv (16.5% or so), Im using EC-
              1118
              > trub from the last wash (approx. 1 gallon), instead of fresh bakers
              > yeast.
              >
              > >
              > > ......Well that's fine, JB. But it's probably the reason why
              your
              > > mash didn't fire like mine does in 20 minutes. Fresh healthy
              prime
              > > yeast will always kick in quicker than 2nd or 3rd or subsequent
              > > generation adult yeasts. Has to do with mutations and viability,
              > and in reused yeasts the issue of sexual reproducing vs asexual
              > budding.
              > > Use your Maltese Falcons ref. to see about this, or there's a few
              > > other good online sources. One I recommend is Tony's
              > > http://homedistiller.org/ferment.htm
              > > Go down to the section on reusing yeast.
              >
              > _snip__
              >
            • jamesonbeam1
              Hi Geoff, Thanks for the information. After reading yours and Harry s recommendations, Im going to start re-havesting the EC-1118 - but not in my
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 17, 2008
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                Hi Geoff,

                Thanks for the information. After reading yours and Harry's
                recommendations, Im going to start re-havesting the EC-1118 - but not
                in my fermentations.

                There's a way to regenerate new yeast using a method of growing it in
                seperate containers - one for fermenting and one for the "mother"
                culture in you refrigerator. I was re-reading Dr. MB Raines
                discussion on yeast propagation, and think im going to go with this
                method:

                Liquid Media. This is a common method of storage for homebrewers and
                has also been referred to as yeast ranching or parallel yeast
                culturing. The best media for this method is wort or wort-containing
                media. Yeast is inoculated into 10 - 20 ml of media and grown until
                it reaches the stationary phase of growth (approximately 3 days) then
                stored in the refrigerator as cold as possible (40 °F). That means
                don't keep it on the door. Stocks should be made in duplicate; one
                to use for brewing, the other as a stock. Some homebrewers prefer to
                build the 10 ml culture upto a larger volume and then dispense it
                into 12 oz. bottles. Storage in culture tubes or small jars also
                works fine. If stored properly, these cultures are stable for up to
                6 months and then must be recultured (preferably from the untouched
                master stock). There are reports that storage in 10% sucrose after
                growth in wort can increase the shelf-life of yeast to as long as 2
                years. In this case, it seems to be necessary to remove all residual
                nutrients or wort since direct addition of sucrose to the stationary
                yeast leads to continued fermentation even at 40 °F. Other bona-fide
                non-fermentable sugars such as lactose or glycerol may be more
                suitable but have yet to be tested for improving yeast's shelf-life.
                Yeast strains vary in their sensitivity to storage in liquid wort.
                From:
                http://maltosefalcons.com/tech/MB_Raines_Guide_to_Yeast_Culturing.php

                I think will work, rather then trying the algar methods mentioned.

                What do you think?

                Vino es Vertas, and Happy St. Patties Day.
                Jim.


                Hi Jim,
                I use those little packets that you're on about and if you
                aren't in a hurry they will multiply and grow in your ferment if you
                stage feed your sugar. I think what Harry is on about is the fresh
                yeast that commercial bakers use. I see them in "E.leclerc" one of
                the main supermarkets chains here in France, they sell it like in
                small ¼ pound (or about 110grams) blocks about a 2.00 euros or
                approx. $2.00. (the French word "levure" is yeast in English).
                Your best bet is go to your local commercial bread maker
                factory/business or homemade pizza bar and talk nicely to the owner
                or manager. And they will cut a good size wedge of live active yeast
                off for you enough to last you some time. As to how it's how to
                store it I think Harry is your man in this respect his family is/was
                into the baker/bread making profession if memory serve me right.
                Hence I think his great, great, grand dad's interest in yeast related
                crafts i.e. distilling and making a good rum.
                From what Harry once said in a posting a good while back, was that
                when a good rising bread was made, a chunk of the dough was routinely
                held back to make another batch the next day and so on and the bakers
                reputation would flourish if it was a good batch. Now watch Harry
                slap my waist for misquoting him
                God I love this hobby you go out into the local community and meet
                such a diverse cross section of people in pursuit of a good brew
                Geoff
              • jamesonbeam1
                Hey Geoff again, Being a bread maker (another side-hobby) myself, I know exactly what Harry is talking about. This is called the sour dough method and have
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 17, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hey Geoff again,

                  Being a bread maker (another side-hobby) myself, I know exactly what
                  Harry is talking about. This is called the "sour dough" method and
                  have used it many times. True sour dough though, is make from wild
                  yeast that has infected the dough by leaving it out - but this works as
                  well.

                  Closer to my heart, is the relationship of this process to our sour
                  mash Bourbon and Tennessee whiskey's - of which i run a great deal of -
                  and is also similar to rum making.

                  They all use the similar concept of re-processing infected mash and
                  sour mash (or dunder in rum making) / trub to re-generate a new mash.

                  Happy St. Patties' Day,
                  Jim.

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206"
                  <jeffrey.burrows@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Jim,
                  __snip__

                  > From what Harry once said in a posting a good while back, was that
                  > when a good rising bread was made, a chunk of the dough was routinely
                  > held back to make another batch the next day and so on and the bakers
                  > reputation would flourish if it was a good batch. Now watch Harry
                  > slap my waist for misquoting him
                  > God I love this hobby you go out into the local community and meet
                  > such a diverse cross section of people in pursuit of a good brew
                  > Geoff
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