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Heads, tails, backset and the kitchen sink

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  • weisst69
    First , I would like to especially thank Jim and Mason. I think you two especially go above and beyond in your advice and I, for one, really appreciate it.
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 6 11:01 AM
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      First , I would like to especially thank Jim and Mason. I think you
      two especially go above and beyond in your advice and I, for one,
      really appreciate it.

      Now, I have read about adding head, tails and backset (dunder for me)
      back to the spirit run. I've seen up to 40% for backset. What about
      heads and tails? I'm imagining it is a matter of preference, since I
      know you can just run an accumulation of heads and tails. Have you all
      found any combination in your runs?

      Finally makin' heads and tails of o' this!
      T-
    • rye_junkie
      ... Hello T man, Backset is for a new sour mash only. You would add up to 50% of your spent/cooked wash/backset/dunder to your new mash along with some of the
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 6 1:30 PM
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        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "weisst69" <toddweiss@...> wrote:
        >
        > First , I would like to especially thank Jim and Mason. I think you
        > two especially go above and beyond in your advice and I, for one,
        > really appreciate it.
        >
        > Now, I have read about adding head, tails and backset (dunder for me)
        > back to the spirit run. I've seen up to 40% for backset. What about
        > heads and tails? I'm imagining it is a matter of preference, since I
        > know you can just run an accumulation of heads and tails. Have you all
        > found any combination in your runs?
        >
        > Finally makin' heads and tails of o' this!
        > T-
        >
        Hello T man,
        Backset is for a new sour mash only. You would add up to 50% of your
        spent/cooked wash/backset/dunder to your new mash along with some of
        the old yeast. You do not add this to the spirit run. ( I think i
        understood your post correctly). I rerun heads and tails with the
        next first/mash run not the spirit run but that is just how I do it.
        I think this is how the whiskey makers do this also. I may be wrong
        in what i do on this. If I add tails to the second/Spirit run then I
        am usually making neutral etho.

        Mason
      • jamesonbeam1
        Hey T. Sorry, I just read the dunder part so let me repost this. I guess that means your making rum. For sour mash whiskey, i usually add some backset in
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 6 6:43 PM
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          Hey T.

          Sorry, I just read the "dunder" part so let me repost this.

          I guess that means your making rum. For sour mash whiskey, i usually
          add some backset in with the spirits run to dilute it and get the abv
          where i want it. See the great chart that Sherman and Harry made in
          Advanced Distillers at:
          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Distillers /message/ 41750

          I believe for rum, its the same concept - adding both the heads and
          tails back in along with enough dunder (backset) to get the final abv
          to where you want it.

          Let us know what your trying to shoot for and then might be able to
          help out a bit more.

          Vino es veritas,
          Jim.


          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "weisst69" <toddweiss@>
          wrote:



          --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "weisst69" <toddweiss@. ..>
          wrote:
          >
          > First , I would like to especially thank Jim and Mason. I think you
          > two especially go above and beyond in your advice and I, for one,
          > really appreciate it.
          >
          > Now, I have read about adding head, tails and backset (dunder for
          me)
          > back to the spirit run. I've seen up to 40% for backset. What about
          > heads and tails? I'm imagining it is a matter of preference, since
          I
          > know you can just run an accumulation of heads and tails. Have you
          all
          > found any combination in your runs?
          >
          > Finally makin' heads and tails of o' this!
          > T-
          >

          > Hello T man,
          > Backset is for a new sour mash only. You would add up to 50% of
          your
          > spent/cooked wash/backset/dunder to your new mash along with some of
          > the old yeast. You do not add this to the spirit run. ( I think i
          > understood your post correctly). I rerun heads and tails with the
          > next first/mash run not the spirit run but that is just how I do
          it.
          > I think this is how the whiskey makers do this also. I may be wrong
          > in what i do on this. If I add tails to the second/Spirit run then
          I
          > am usually making neutral etho.
          >
          > Mason
          >
        • chevisn7
          Hi All Question Please. Why would you want to add heads and tails. Something that has all the nasties in it and tastes terrible and is supposedly poison to
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 7 5:36 AM
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            Hi All
            Question Please. Why would you want to add heads and tails. Something
            that has all the nasties in it and tastes terrible and is supposedly
            poison to drink back to a batch of good stuff.
            I here every one talking about it. But it makes no sense. Is there an
            uncomplicated answer to this question.
            Chuck

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie" <rye_junkie@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "weisst69" <toddweiss@>
            wrote:
            > >
            > > First , I would like to especially thank Jim and Mason. I think
            you
            > > two especially go above and beyond in your advice and I, for one,
            > > really appreciate it.
            > >
            > > Now, I have read about adding head, tails and backset (dunder for
            me)
            > > back to the spirit run. I've seen up to 40% for backset. What
            about
            > > heads and tails? I'm imagining it is a matter of preference,
            since I
            > > know you can just run an accumulation of heads and tails. Have
            you all
            > > found any combination in your runs?
            > >
            > > Finally makin' heads and tails of o' this!
            > > T-
            > >
            > Hello T man,
            > Backset is for a new sour mash only. You would add up to 50% of
            your
            > spent/cooked wash/backset/dunder to your new mash along with some of
            > the old yeast. You do not add this to the spirit run. ( I think i
            > understood your post correctly). I rerun heads and tails with the
            > next first/mash run not the spirit run but that is just how I do
            it.
            > I think this is how the whiskey makers do this also. I may be wrong
            > in what i do on this. If I add tails to the second/Spirit run then
            I
            > am usually making neutral etho.
            >
            > Mason
            >
          • rye_junkie
            ... I will take a stab at this. Heads have plenty of alcohol and some wanted flavors in them and tails also have alot of usable etho in them as well. When
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 7 6:15 AM
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              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chevisn7" <chevisn7@...> wrote:
              >
              I will take a stab at this. Heads have plenty of alcohol and some
              wanted flavors in them and tails also have alot of usable etho in them
              as well. When you rerun these you extract more of the usable etho and
              flavors. Or you can just save up a few gallons of them and reflux them
              to death. I have not done it but have read that when you save up
              enough of and re run them with a spirit run it makes for some really
              nice drink.
              Jim,
              did I understand correctly that you put spent/cooked wash in with the
              the low wines for the spirit run? Please elaborate, Sounds interesting.

              Mason

              > Hi All
              > Question Please. Why would you want to add heads and tails. Something
              > that has all the nasties in it and tastes terrible and is supposedly
              > poison to drink back to a batch of good stuff.
              > I here every one talking about it. But it makes no sense. Is there an
              > uncomplicated answer to this question.
              > Chuck
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie" <rye_junkie@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "weisst69" <toddweiss@>
              > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > First , I would like to especially thank Jim and Mason. I think
              > you
              > > > two especially go above and beyond in your advice and I, for one,
              > > > really appreciate it.
              > > >
              > > > Now, I have read about adding head, tails and backset (dunder for
              > me)
              > > > back to the spirit run. I've seen up to 40% for backset. What
              > about
              > > > heads and tails? I'm imagining it is a matter of preference,
              > since I
              > > > know you can just run an accumulation of heads and tails. Have
              > you all
              > > > found any combination in your runs?
              > > >
              > > > Finally makin' heads and tails of o' this!
              > > > T-
              > > >
              > > Hello T man,
              > > Backset is for a new sour mash only. You would add up to 50% of
              > your
              > > spent/cooked wash/backset/dunder to your new mash along with some of
              > > the old yeast. You do not add this to the spirit run. ( I think i
              > > understood your post correctly). I rerun heads and tails with the
              > > next first/mash run not the spirit run but that is just how I do
              > it.
              > > I think this is how the whiskey makers do this also. I may be wrong
              > > in what i do on this. If I add tails to the second/Spirit run then
              > I
              > > am usually making neutral etho.
              > >
              > > Mason
              > >
              >
            • jamesonbeam1
              Hi Chuck, First off, the poison is methanol and acetone. This is only found in the first 100 - 200 mL of distallate, depending on boiler size (about 3.1% of
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 7 6:45 AM
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                Hi Chuck,

                First off, the poison is methanol and acetone. This is only found in
                the first 100 - 200 mL of distallate, depending on boiler size (about
                3.1% of total) and is called Foreshots. These should be thrown out
                or used for lighter fluid (or as Bill pointed out - can be used to
                remove oil stains from your driveway :):):).

                The heads (about 17.4% of total) contain the most conegers, which are
                flavors from the grain. These are saved for the next run. Using a
                pot still, these are also the highest abv of the total distillate.

                The middle run or "hearts" (about 57.1% of total) is the good stuff
                and the drinkable distillate from a spirits run.

                Tails (about 22.4%) contain fusel oils such as propanol, Butanol,
                Amyl alcohol and some Furfural (very important in rum making) and are
                also saved.

                When you make another stripping run and are ready for the spirits
                run, you add back these heads and tails and then make make your cuts
                again... In whiskey and rum making, some sour mash (for whiskey) or
                dunder (for rum) is also added back to get the final abv to where you
                want it and for additional flavors. Also, you can add back some of
                the heads to the final product to get the taste your after.

                Hope this explains some of it :).

                Vino es Veritas,
                Jim.




                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chevisn7" <chevisn7@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Hi All
                > Question Please. Why would you want to add heads and tails.
                Something
                > that has all the nasties in it and tastes terrible and is
                supposedly
                > poison to drink back to a batch of good stuff.
                > I here every one talking about it. But it makes no sense. Is there
                an
                > uncomplicated answer to this question.
                > Chuck
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie" <rye_junkie@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "weisst69" <toddweiss@>
                > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > First , I would like to especially thank Jim and Mason. I
                think
                > you
                > > > two especially go above and beyond in your advice and I, for
                one,
                > > > really appreciate it.
                > > >
                > > > Now, I have read about adding head, tails and backset (dunder
                for
                > me)
                > > > back to the spirit run. I've seen up to 40% for backset. What
                > about
                > > > heads and tails? I'm imagining it is a matter of preference,
                > since I
                > > > know you can just run an accumulation of heads and tails. Have
                > you all
                > > > found any combination in your runs?
                > > >
                > > > Finally makin' heads and tails of o' this!
                > > > T-
                > > >
                > > Hello T man,
                > > Backset is for a new sour mash only. You would add up to 50% of
                > your
                > > spent/cooked wash/backset/dunder to your new mash along with some
                of
                > > the old yeast. You do not add this to the spirit run. ( I think i
                > > understood your post correctly). I rerun heads and tails with the
                > > next first/mash run not the spirit run but that is just how I do
                > it.
                > > I think this is how the whiskey makers do this also. I may be
                wrong
                > > in what i do on this. If I add tails to the second/Spirit run
                then
                > I
                > > am usually making neutral etho.
                > >
                > > Mason
                > >
                >
              • chevisn7
                Thanks Jim And to think I have already thrown out about 750ml of heads and tossed all the tails down the drain. I will give your method a try after I save up a
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 7 6:47 AM
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                  Thanks Jim
                  And to think I have already thrown out about 750ml of heads and
                  tossed all the tails down the drain. I will give your method a try
                  after I save up a gallon or so and see what happends.
                  Chuck

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie" <rye_junkie@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chevisn7" <chevisn7@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > I will take a stab at this. Heads have plenty of alcohol and some
                  > wanted flavors in them and tails also have alot of usable etho in
                  them
                  > as well. When you rerun these you extract more of the usable etho
                  and
                  > flavors. Or you can just save up a few gallons of them and reflux
                  them
                  > to death. I have not done it but have read that when you save up
                  > enough of and re run them with a spirit run it makes for some really
                  > nice drink.
                  > Jim,
                  > did I understand correctly that you put spent/cooked wash in with
                  the
                  > the low wines for the spirit run? Please elaborate, Sounds
                  interesting.
                  >
                  > Mason
                  >
                  > > Hi All
                  > > Question Please. Why would you want to add heads and tails.
                  Something
                  > > that has all the nasties in it and tastes terrible and is
                  supposedly
                  > > poison to drink back to a batch of good stuff.
                  > > I here every one talking about it. But it makes no sense. Is
                  there an
                  > > uncomplicated answer to this question.
                  > > Chuck
                  > >
                  > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie" <rye_junkie@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "weisst69" <toddweiss@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > First , I would like to especially thank Jim and Mason. I
                  think
                  > > you
                  > > > > two especially go above and beyond in your advice and I, for
                  one,
                  > > > > really appreciate it.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Now, I have read about adding head, tails and backset (dunder
                  for
                  > > me)
                  > > > > back to the spirit run. I've seen up to 40% for backset.
                  What
                  > > about
                  > > > > heads and tails? I'm imagining it is a matter of preference,
                  > > since I
                  > > > > know you can just run an accumulation of heads and tails.
                  Have
                  > > you all
                  > > > > found any combination in your runs?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Finally makin' heads and tails of o' this!
                  > > > > T-
                  > > > >
                  > > > Hello T man,
                  > > > Backset is for a new sour mash only. You would add up to 50%
                  of
                  > > your
                  > > > spent/cooked wash/backset/dunder to your new mash along with
                  some of
                  > > > the old yeast. You do not add this to the spirit run. ( I
                  think i
                  > > > understood your post correctly). I rerun heads and tails with
                  the
                  > > > next first/mash run not the spirit run but that is just how I
                  do
                  > > it.
                  > > > I think this is how the whiskey makers do this also. I may be
                  wrong
                  > > > in what i do on this. If I add tails to the second/Spirit run
                  then
                  > > I
                  > > > am usually making neutral etho.
                  > > >
                  > > > Mason
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • jamesonbeam1
                  Hey Mason, Yup, Ive been adding some sour mash back in with the head and tails of my last run for additional flavors. This is normally done in rum making so i
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 7 7:33 AM
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                    Hey Mason,

                    Yup, Ive been adding some sour mash back in with the head and tails of
                    my last run for additional flavors. This is normally done in rum
                    making so i figured it would work in whiskey makin too. If i run out
                    of sour mash, ive even put some of the still fermenting mash back in.

                    If you look at the great chart that Sherman and Harry drew up in
                    Advanced Distillers:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/message/41750

                    you will see that if you take you 55% low wines and dilute them down to
                    about 30% with sour mash, you should endup with about a 70 - 75% final
                    product - just right for aging.

                    It does in fact add some more flavor to the final product.

                    Vino es Veritas,
                    Jim.

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rye_junkie" <rye_junkie@...>
                    wrote:
                    > I will take a stab at this. Heads have plenty of alcohol and some
                    > wanted flavors in them and tails also have alot of usable etho in them
                    > as well. When you rerun these you extract more of the usable etho and
                    > flavors. Or you can just save up a few gallons of them and reflux them
                    > to death. I have not done it but have read that when you save up
                    > enough of and re run them with a spirit run it makes for some really
                    > nice drink.
                    > Jim,
                    > did I understand correctly that you put spent/cooked wash in with the
                    > the low wines for the spirit run? Please elaborate, Sounds
                    interesting.
                    >
                    > Mason
                  • abbababbaccc
                    Jim, If I may be a bit more precise. The main component of heads is ethyl acetate, not acetone although they smell quite a bit alike. Methanol in large amounts
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 7 11:14 AM
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                      Jim,

                      If I may be a bit more precise. The main component of heads is ethyl
                      acetate, not acetone although they smell quite a bit alike. Methanol
                      in large amounts is indeed poisonous, although it's found in regular
                      beer, wine and even orange juice we consume on regular basis. The
                      question here is the amount and concentration derived from that.
                      Almost everything is lethal in high concentrations, drink some 6
                      liters of water and it will ruin your metabolism and cause death.

                      The amount of heads depends on your still and it's separation
                      capacity. It is quite impossible to give the amount of heads in
                      generic, although we can give guide lines for pot stills and things
                      like ARC where reflux is kept linear or constant throughout the run.

                      This from a theoretical point of view, hope it helps some. The amount
                      of most poisonous stuff (methanol) is in generic so small that
                      recycling the heads and tails does not really matter unless you do it
                      100+ more times. The excessive amount of heads is always left in the
                      boiler

                      For flavored drinks, as Jim said you get more intense flavor by
                      recycling the heads and tails.

                      Cheers, Riku

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                      <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Chuck,
                      >
                      > First off, the poison is methanol and acetone. This is only found in
                      > the first 100 - 200 mL of distallate, depending on boiler size (about
                      > 3.1% of total) and is called Foreshots. These should be thrown out
                      > or used for lighter fluid (or as Bill pointed out - can be used to
                      > remove oil stains from your driveway :):):).
                      >
                      > The heads (about 17.4% of total) contain the most conegers, which are
                      > flavors from the grain. These are saved for the next run. Using a
                      > pot still, these are also the highest abv of the total distillate.
                      >
                      > The middle run or "hearts" (about 57.1% of total) is the good stuff
                      > and the drinkable distillate from a spirits run.
                      >
                      > Tails (about 22.4%) contain fusel oils such as propanol, Butanol,
                      > Amyl alcohol and some Furfural (very important in rum making) and are
                      > also saved.
                      >
                      > When you make another stripping run and are ready for the spirits
                      > run, you add back these heads and tails and then make make your cuts
                      > again... In whiskey and rum making, some sour mash (for whiskey) or
                      > dunder (for rum) is also added back to get the final abv to where you
                      > want it and for additional flavors. Also, you can add back some of
                      > the heads to the final product to get the taste your after.
                      >
                      > Hope this explains some of it :).
                      >
                      > Vino es Veritas,
                      > Jim.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • abbababbaccc
                      Dagn, correction - the excessive amount of TAILS is left in the boiler, not heads. Cheers, Riku
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 7 11:29 AM
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                        Dagn, correction - the excessive amount of TAILS is left in the
                        boiler, not heads.

                        Cheers, Riku

                        > 100+ more times. The excessive amount of heads is always left in the
                        > boiler
                        >
                      • jamesonbeam1
                        Hi Riku, Yes, you are indeed correct, but as stated, any acetone is found in the foreshots along with the methanol, not in the heads. Per the boiling points:
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 7 11:35 AM
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                          Hi Riku,

                          Yes, you are indeed correct, but as stated, any acetone is found in
                          the foreshots along with the methanol, not in the heads. Per the
                          boiling points:

                          Acetone 56.5C (134F)
                          Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F)
                          Ethyl acetate 77.1C (171F)
                          Ethanol 78C (172F)
                          2-Propanol (rubbing alcohol) 82C (180F)
                          1-Propanol 97C (207F)
                          Water 100C (212F)
                          Butanol 116C (241F)
                          Amyl alcohol 137.8C (280F)
                          Furfural 161C (322F)

                          I would consider acetone (if there is any) and Methanol to be part of
                          the Foreshots, and the Ethyl acetate part of the Heads.

                          Sorry for the mis-speak.

                          Vino es Veritas,
                          Jim.


                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                          <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Jim,
                          >
                          > If I may be a bit more precise. The main component of heads is ethyl
                          > acetate, not acetone although they smell quite a bit alike. Methanol
                          > in large amounts is indeed poisonous, although it's found in regular
                          > beer, wine and even orange juice we consume on regular basis. The
                          > question here is the amount and concentration derived from that.
                          > Almost everything is lethal in high concentrations, drink some 6
                          > liters of water and it will ruin your metabolism and cause death.
                          >
                          > The amount of heads depends on your still and it's separation
                          > capacity. It is quite impossible to give the amount of heads in
                          > generic, although we can give guide lines for pot stills and things
                          > like ARC where reflux is kept linear or constant throughout the run.
                          >
                          > This from a theoretical point of view, hope it helps some. The
                          amount
                          > of most poisonous stuff (methanol) is in generic so small that
                          > recycling the heads and tails does not really matter unless you do
                          it
                          > 100+ more times. The excessive amount of heads is always left in the
                          > boiler
                          >
                          > For flavored drinks, as Jim said you get more intense flavor by
                          > recycling the heads and tails.
                          >
                          > Cheers, Riku
                          >
                          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                          > <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi Chuck,
                          > >
                          > > First off, the poison is methanol and acetone. This is only
                          found in
                          > > the first 100 - 200 mL of distallate, depending on boiler size
                          (about
                          > > 3.1% of total) and is called Foreshots. These should be thrown
                          out
                          > > or used for lighter fluid (or as Bill pointed out - can be used
                          to
                          > > remove oil stains from your driveway :):):).
                          > >
                          > > The heads (about 17.4% of total) contain the most conegers, which
                          are
                          > > flavors from the grain. These are saved for the next run. Using
                          a
                          > > pot still, these are also the highest abv of the total
                          distillate.
                          > >
                          > > The middle run or "hearts" (about 57.1% of total) is the good
                          stuff
                          > > and the drinkable distillate from a spirits run.
                          > >
                          > > Tails (about 22.4%) contain fusel oils such as propanol, Butanol,
                          > > Amyl alcohol and some Furfural (very important in rum making) and
                          are
                          > > also saved.
                          > >
                          > > When you make another stripping run and are ready for the spirits
                          > > run, you add back these heads and tails and then make make your
                          cuts
                          > > again... In whiskey and rum making, some sour mash (for whiskey)
                          or
                          > > dunder (for rum) is also added back to get the final abv to where
                          you
                          > > want it and for additional flavors. Also, you can add back some
                          of
                          > > the heads to the final product to get the taste your after.
                          > >
                          > > Hope this explains some of it :).
                          > >
                          > > Vino es Veritas,
                          > > Jim.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Sherman
                          In this case Riku, you are correct. Those temps you quote really have less bearing on the distillation behavior as does the the vapor pressure each on exhibits
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 7 12:25 PM
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                            In this case Riku, you are correct. Those temps you quote really have
                            less bearing on the distillation behavior as does the the vapor
                            pressure each on exhibits at the various temperatures of distillation.
                            Raoult's law for non-ideal mixtures specifies that each component will
                            contribute to the gas mixture coming from the boiling mixture through
                            out the complete distillation until the mixture is exhausted.
                            In plain words it says the the boiling point is a combination of all
                            things in the mixture base on their mole fractions. Through the
                            distillation batch that amount of each component gassing off will
                            depend on how much is in the mixture, not at what temperature it is
                            at. The equilibrium phase, the point at which the vapor pressure is
                            equal atmospheric pressure, is the boiling point and is controlled by
                            the amounts of things in the mixture. This was well represented by the
                            charts recently discussed. The temperature does not control which
                            things come out and which stay in. In the case of all the components
                            you listed, each will occur throughout the distillation, just in
                            different fractions. There are no clear delineations for any of the
                            components.
                            The methanol will be in all parts of the foreshots, heads hearts and
                            tails equal to the ratio at which it started out until there is non
                            left in the mix. The distribution of methanol to ethanol looks very
                            linear when samples from a gas chromatograph are plotted. Luckily, our
                            production has no more of all these things than is in the original
                            wash, weather it is beer, sugar wash, wine etc.

                            I know too technical for new distiller but it is a verifiable fact.

                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                            <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Riku,
                            >
                            > Yes, you are indeed correct, but as stated, any acetone is found in
                            > the foreshots along with the methanol, not in the heads. Per the
                            > boiling points:
                            >
                            > Acetone 56.5C (134F)
                            > Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F)
                            > Ethyl acetate 77.1C (171F)
                            > Ethanol 78C (172F)
                            > 2-Propanol (rubbing alcohol) 82C (180F)
                            > 1-Propanol 97C (207F)
                            > Water 100C (212F)
                            > Butanol 116C (241F)
                            > Amyl alcohol 137.8C (280F)
                            > Furfural 161C (322F)
                            >
                            > I would consider acetone (if there is any) and Methanol to be part of
                            > the Foreshots, and the Ethyl acetate part of the Heads.
                            >
                            > Sorry for the mis-speak.
                            >
                            > Vino es Veritas,
                            > Jim.
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                            > <abbababbaccc@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Jim,
                            > >
                            > > If I may be a bit more precise. The main component of heads is ethyl
                            > > acetate, not acetone although they smell quite a bit alike. Methanol
                            > > in large amounts is indeed poisonous, although it's found in regular
                            > > beer, wine and even orange juice we consume on regular basis. The
                            > > question here is the amount and concentration derived from that.
                            > > Almost everything is lethal in high concentrations, drink some 6
                            > > liters of water and it will ruin your metabolism and cause death.
                            > >
                            > > The amount of heads depends on your still and it's separation
                            > > capacity. It is quite impossible to give the amount of heads in
                            > > generic, although we can give guide lines for pot stills and things
                            > > like ARC where reflux is kept linear or constant throughout the run.
                            > >
                            > > This from a theoretical point of view, hope it helps some. The
                            > amount
                            > > of most poisonous stuff (methanol) is in generic so small that
                            > > recycling the heads and tails does not really matter unless you do
                            > it
                            > > 100+ more times. The excessive amount of heads is always left in the
                            > > boiler
                            > >
                            > > For flavored drinks, as Jim said you get more intense flavor by
                            > > recycling the heads and tails.
                            > >
                            > > Cheers, Riku
                            > >
                            > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                            > > <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hi Chuck,
                            > > >
                            > > > First off, the poison is methanol and acetone. This is only
                            > found in
                            > > > the first 100 - 200 mL of distallate, depending on boiler size
                            > (about
                            > > > 3.1% of total) and is called Foreshots. These should be thrown
                            > out
                            > > > or used for lighter fluid (or as Bill pointed out - can be used
                            > to
                            > > > remove oil stains from your driveway :):):).
                            > > >
                            > > > The heads (about 17.4% of total) contain the most conegers, which
                            > are
                            > > > flavors from the grain. These are saved for the next run. Using
                            > a
                            > > > pot still, these are also the highest abv of the total
                            > distillate.
                            > > >
                            > > > The middle run or "hearts" (about 57.1% of total) is the good
                            > stuff
                            > > > and the drinkable distillate from a spirits run.
                            > > >
                            > > > Tails (about 22.4%) contain fusel oils such as propanol, Butanol,
                            > > > Amyl alcohol and some Furfural (very important in rum making) and
                            > are
                            > > > also saved.
                            > > >
                            > > > When you make another stripping run and are ready for the spirits
                            > > > run, you add back these heads and tails and then make make your
                            > cuts
                            > > > again... In whiskey and rum making, some sour mash (for whiskey)
                            > or
                            > > > dunder (for rum) is also added back to get the final abv to where
                            > you
                            > > > want it and for additional flavors. Also, you can add back some
                            > of
                            > > > the heads to the final product to get the taste your after.
                            > > >
                            > > > Hope this explains some of it :).
                            > > >
                            > > > Vino es Veritas,
                            > > > Jim.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • jamesonbeam1
                            Hey Sherman, Great disertation, what skeers me is that im actually starting to understand that a solution of various alcohols, etc, will have higher boiling
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 7 1:09 PM
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                              Hey Sherman,

                              Great disertation, what skeers me is that im actually starting to
                              understand that a solution of various alcohols, etc, will have higher
                              boiling points then each of the individual ones :).

                              One question though - Does Raoult's law apply to both pot stills
                              (with only 1 theoretical plate) or reflux / fractional stills or all
                              types?

                              Vino es Veritas,
                              Jim.

                              (As Spock said "The needs of the many are greater then the needs of
                              the few or even the one")....





                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sherman" <pintoshine@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > In this case Riku, you are correct. Those temps you quote really
                              have
                              > less bearing on the distillation behavior as does the the vapor
                              > pressure each on exhibits at the various temperatures of
                              distillation.
                              > Raoult's law for non-ideal mixtures specifies that each component
                              will
                              > contribute to the gas mixture coming from the boiling mixture
                              through
                              > out the complete distillation until the mixture is exhausted.
                              > In plain words it says the the boiling point is a combination of all
                              > things in the mixture base on their mole fractions. Through the
                              > distillation batch that amount of each component gassing off will
                              > depend on how much is in the mixture, not at what temperature it is
                              > at. The equilibrium phase, the point at which the vapor pressure is
                              > equal atmospheric pressure, is the boiling point and is controlled
                              by
                              > the amounts of things in the mixture. This was well represented by
                              the
                              > charts recently discussed. The temperature does not control which
                              > things come out and which stay in. In the case of all the components
                              > you listed, each will occur throughout the distillation, just in
                              > different fractions. There are no clear delineations for any of the
                              > components.
                              > The methanol will be in all parts of the foreshots, heads hearts and
                              > tails equal to the ratio at which it started out until there is non
                              > left in the mix. The distribution of methanol to ethanol looks very
                              > linear when samples from a gas chromatograph are plotted. Luckily,
                              our
                              > production has no more of all these things than is in the original
                              > wash, weather it is beer, sugar wash, wine etc.
                              >
                              > I know too technical for new distiller but it is a verifiable fact.
                              >
                              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                              > <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi Riku,
                              > >
                              > > Yes, you are indeed correct, but as stated, any acetone is found
                              in
                              > > the foreshots along with the methanol, not in the heads. Per the
                              > > boiling points:
                              > >
                              > > Acetone 56.5C (134F)
                              > > Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F)
                              > > Ethyl acetate 77.1C (171F)
                              > > Ethanol 78C (172F)
                              > > 2-Propanol (rubbing alcohol) 82C (180F)
                              > > 1-Propanol 97C (207F)
                              > > Water 100C (212F)
                              > > Butanol 116C (241F)
                              > > Amyl alcohol 137.8C (280F)
                              > > Furfural 161C (322F)
                              > >
                              > > I would consider acetone (if there is any) and Methanol to be
                              part of
                              > > the Foreshots, and the Ethyl acetate part of the Heads.
                              > >
                              > > Sorry for the mis-speak.
                              > >
                              > > Vino es Veritas,
                              > > Jim.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                              > > <abbababbaccc@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Jim,
                              > > >
                              > > > If I may be a bit more precise. The main component of heads is
                              ethyl
                              > > > acetate, not acetone although they smell quite a bit alike.
                              Methanol
                              > > > in large amounts is indeed poisonous, although it's found in
                              regular
                              > > > beer, wine and even orange juice we consume on regular basis.
                              The
                              > > > question here is the amount and concentration derived from that.
                              > > > Almost everything is lethal in high concentrations, drink some 6
                              > > > liters of water and it will ruin your metabolism and cause
                              death.
                              > > >
                              > > > The amount of heads depends on your still and it's separation
                              > > > capacity. It is quite impossible to give the amount of heads in
                              > > > generic, although we can give guide lines for pot stills and
                              things
                              > > > like ARC where reflux is kept linear or constant throughout the
                              run.
                              > > >
                              > > > This from a theoretical point of view, hope it helps some. The
                              > > amount
                              > > > of most poisonous stuff (methanol) is in generic so small that
                              > > > recycling the heads and tails does not really matter unless you
                              do
                              > > it
                              > > > 100+ more times. The excessive amount of heads is always left
                              in the
                              > > > boiler
                              > > >
                              > > > For flavored drinks, as Jim said you get more intense flavor by
                              > > > recycling the heads and tails.
                              > > >
                              > > > Cheers, Riku
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                              > > > <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hi Chuck,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > First off, the poison is methanol and acetone. This is only
                              > > found in
                              > > > > the first 100 - 200 mL of distallate, depending on boiler
                              size
                              > > (about
                              > > > > 3.1% of total) and is called Foreshots. These should be
                              thrown
                              > > out
                              > > > > or used for lighter fluid (or as Bill pointed out - can be
                              used
                              > > to
                              > > > > remove oil stains from your driveway :):):).
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The heads (about 17.4% of total) contain the most conegers,
                              which
                              > > are
                              > > > > flavors from the grain. These are saved for the next run.
                              Using
                              > > a
                              > > > > pot still, these are also the highest abv of the total
                              > > distillate.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The middle run or "hearts" (about 57.1% of total) is the good
                              > > stuff
                              > > > > and the drinkable distillate from a spirits run.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Tails (about 22.4%) contain fusel oils such as propanol,
                              Butanol,
                              > > > > Amyl alcohol and some Furfural (very important in rum making)
                              and
                              > > are
                              > > > > also saved.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > When you make another stripping run and are ready for the
                              spirits
                              > > > > run, you add back these heads and tails and then make make
                              your
                              > > cuts
                              > > > > again... In whiskey and rum making, some sour mash (for
                              whiskey)
                              > > or
                              > > > > dunder (for rum) is also added back to get the final abv to
                              where
                              > > you
                              > > > > want it and for additional flavors. Also, you can add back
                              some
                              > > of
                              > > > > the heads to the final product to get the taste your after.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hope this explains some of it :).
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Vino es Veritas,
                              > > > > Jim.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • morganfield1
                              Hey Pint, and anyone else, Am I correct in thinking that individual components of a wash (Meth, ethol acetate, ect.) will tend to be more prevelant (I don t
                              Message 14 of 18 , Mar 7 1:39 PM
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                                Hey Pint, and anyone else,

                                Am I correct in thinking that individual components of a wash (Meth,
                                ethol acetate, ect.) will tend to be more prevelant (I don't know
                                quite how to word this) at the head of the still (reflux) when the
                                head temp is near their boiling points. In other words, givin that
                                methanol is present thru out the run, most comes off first. Propanol
                                is also present thru out the run, most comes off after the heart. So
                                head temps are only an INDICATION of what is at the top of still
                                ready to be condensed?

                                Also, as I am making whiskey, I don't want alot of reflux going on in
                                my column (LM), so I'm going to try marbles. Has anyone had any
                                experience they would like to pass on?

                                Tip one, Morgan



                                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sherman" <pintoshine@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > In this case Riku, you are correct. Those temps you quote really
                                have
                                > less bearing on the distillation behavior as does the the vapor
                                > pressure each on exhibits at the various temperatures of
                                distillation.
                                > Raoult's law for non-ideal mixtures specifies that each component
                                will
                                > contribute to the gas mixture coming from the boiling mixture
                                through
                                > out the complete distillation until the mixture is exhausted.
                                > In plain words it says the the boiling point is a combination of all
                                > things in the mixture base on their mole fractions. Through the
                                > distillation batch that amount of each component gassing off will
                                > depend on how much is in the mixture, not at what temperature it is
                                > at. The equilibrium phase, the point at which the vapor pressure is
                                > equal atmospheric pressure, is the boiling point and is controlled
                                by
                                > the amounts of things in the mixture. This was well represented by
                                the
                                > charts recently discussed. The temperature does not control which
                                > things come out and which stay in. In the case of all the components
                                > you listed, each will occur throughout the distillation, just in
                                > different fractions. There are no clear delineations for any of the
                                > components.
                                > The methanol will be in all parts of the foreshots, heads hearts and
                                > tails equal to the ratio at which it started out until there is non
                                > left in the mix. The distribution of methanol to ethanol looks very
                                > linear when samples from a gas chromatograph are plotted. Luckily,
                                our
                                > production has no more of all these things than is in the original
                                > wash, weather it is beer, sugar wash, wine etc.
                                >
                                > I know too technical for new distiller but it is a verifiable fact.
                                >
                                >
                              • Sherman
                                If you are running a lot of reflux on a true column that has the capability of high separation, which would run on the order of 60 feet tall to get enough
                                Message 15 of 18 , Mar 7 7:24 PM
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                                  If you are running a lot of reflux on a true column that has the
                                  capability of high separation, which would run on the order of 60 feet
                                  tall to get enough temperature gradient, it would be possible to
                                  separate the fractions. But it takes a column 20 feet with high
                                  concentrations of ethanol just to separate ethyl acetate from 95%
                                  ethanol. These fractions are very hard to isolate. Usually it takes
                                  specialized solvents. That is why no matter how clean a vodka or how
                                  many processes it goes through, there is always a distinct flavor
                                  profile associated with each. I used to consider myself a vodka expert
                                  but there have been so many new ones hit the market lately one can't
                                  possible keep up.
                                  Take the best column you have and try to get it to equilibriate at the
                                  temperature of methanol then see how much liquid you get and how long
                                  it takes it to lose equilibrium at that temp. I can't do it with my
                                  42"x 3.5" column because there is not enough methanol or any other
                                  fracton other than ethanol and water.

                                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                                  <jamesonbeam1@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hey Sherman,
                                  >
                                  > Great disertation, what skeers me is that im actually starting to
                                  > understand that a solution of various alcohols, etc, will have higher
                                  > boiling points then each of the individual ones :).
                                  >
                                  > One question though - Does Raoult's law apply to both pot stills
                                  > (with only 1 theoretical plate) or reflux / fractional stills or all
                                  > types?
                                  >
                                  > Vino es Veritas,
                                  > Jim.
                                  >
                                  > (As Spock said "The needs of the many are greater then the needs of
                                  > the few or even the one")....
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sherman" <pintoshine@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > In this case Riku, you are correct. Those temps you quote really
                                  > have
                                  > > less bearing on the distillation behavior as does the the vapor
                                  > > pressure each on exhibits at the various temperatures of
                                  > distillation.
                                  > > Raoult's law for non-ideal mixtures specifies that each component
                                  > will
                                  > > contribute to the gas mixture coming from the boiling mixture
                                  > through
                                  > > out the complete distillation until the mixture is exhausted.
                                  > > In plain words it says the the boiling point is a combination of all
                                  > > things in the mixture base on their mole fractions. Through the
                                  > > distillation batch that amount of each component gassing off will
                                  > > depend on how much is in the mixture, not at what temperature it is
                                  > > at. The equilibrium phase, the point at which the vapor pressure is
                                  > > equal atmospheric pressure, is the boiling point and is controlled
                                  > by
                                  > > the amounts of things in the mixture. This was well represented by
                                  > the
                                  > > charts recently discussed. The temperature does not control which
                                  > > things come out and which stay in. In the case of all the components
                                  > > you listed, each will occur throughout the distillation, just in
                                  > > different fractions. There are no clear delineations for any of the
                                  > > components.
                                  > > The methanol will be in all parts of the foreshots, heads hearts and
                                  > > tails equal to the ratio at which it started out until there is non
                                  > > left in the mix. The distribution of methanol to ethanol looks very
                                  > > linear when samples from a gas chromatograph are plotted. Luckily,
                                  > our
                                  > > production has no more of all these things than is in the original
                                  > > wash, weather it is beer, sugar wash, wine etc.
                                  > >
                                  > > I know too technical for new distiller but it is a verifiable fact.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                                  > > <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hi Riku,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yes, you are indeed correct, but as stated, any acetone is found
                                  > in
                                  > > > the foreshots along with the methanol, not in the heads. Per the
                                  > > > boiling points:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Acetone 56.5C (134F)
                                  > > > Methanol (wood alcohol) 64C (147F)
                                  > > > Ethyl acetate 77.1C (171F)
                                  > > > Ethanol 78C (172F)
                                  > > > 2-Propanol (rubbing alcohol) 82C (180F)
                                  > > > 1-Propanol 97C (207F)
                                  > > > Water 100C (212F)
                                  > > > Butanol 116C (241F)
                                  > > > Amyl alcohol 137.8C (280F)
                                  > > > Furfural 161C (322F)
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I would consider acetone (if there is any) and Methanol to be
                                  > part of
                                  > > > the Foreshots, and the Ethyl acetate part of the Heads.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Sorry for the mis-speak.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Vino es Veritas,
                                  > > > Jim.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                                  > > > <abbababbaccc@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Jim,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > If I may be a bit more precise. The main component of heads is
                                  > ethyl
                                  > > > > acetate, not acetone although they smell quite a bit alike.
                                  > Methanol
                                  > > > > in large amounts is indeed poisonous, although it's found in
                                  > regular
                                  > > > > beer, wine and even orange juice we consume on regular basis.
                                  > The
                                  > > > > question here is the amount and concentration derived from that.
                                  > > > > Almost everything is lethal in high concentrations, drink some 6
                                  > > > > liters of water and it will ruin your metabolism and cause
                                  > death.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > The amount of heads depends on your still and it's separation
                                  > > > > capacity. It is quite impossible to give the amount of heads in
                                  > > > > generic, although we can give guide lines for pot stills and
                                  > things
                                  > > > > like ARC where reflux is kept linear or constant throughout the
                                  > run.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > This from a theoretical point of view, hope it helps some. The
                                  > > > amount
                                  > > > > of most poisonous stuff (methanol) is in generic so small that
                                  > > > > recycling the heads and tails does not really matter unless you
                                  > do
                                  > > > it
                                  > > > > 100+ more times. The excessive amount of heads is always left
                                  > in the
                                  > > > > boiler
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > For flavored drinks, as Jim said you get more intense flavor by
                                  > > > > recycling the heads and tails.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Cheers, Riku
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "jamesonbeam1"
                                  > > > > <jamesonbeam1@> wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Hi Chuck,
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > First off, the poison is methanol and acetone. This is only
                                  > > > found in
                                  > > > > > the first 100 - 200 mL of distallate, depending on boiler
                                  > size
                                  > > > (about
                                  > > > > > 3.1% of total) and is called Foreshots. These should be
                                  > thrown
                                  > > > out
                                  > > > > > or used for lighter fluid (or as Bill pointed out - can be
                                  > used
                                  > > > to
                                  > > > > > remove oil stains from your driveway :):):).
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > The heads (about 17.4% of total) contain the most conegers,
                                  > which
                                  > > > are
                                  > > > > > flavors from the grain. These are saved for the next run.
                                  > Using
                                  > > > a
                                  > > > > > pot still, these are also the highest abv of the total
                                  > > > distillate.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > The middle run or "hearts" (about 57.1% of total) is the good
                                  > > > stuff
                                  > > > > > and the drinkable distillate from a spirits run.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Tails (about 22.4%) contain fusel oils such as propanol,
                                  > Butanol,
                                  > > > > > Amyl alcohol and some Furfural (very important in rum making)
                                  > and
                                  > > > are
                                  > > > > > also saved.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > When you make another stripping run and are ready for the
                                  > spirits
                                  > > > > > run, you add back these heads and tails and then make make
                                  > your
                                  > > > cuts
                                  > > > > > again... In whiskey and rum making, some sour mash (for
                                  > whiskey)
                                  > > > or
                                  > > > > > dunder (for rum) is also added back to get the final abv to
                                  > where
                                  > > > you
                                  > > > > > want it and for additional flavors. Also, you can add back
                                  > some
                                  > > > of
                                  > > > > > the heads to the final product to get the taste your after.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Hope this explains some of it :).
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Vino es Veritas,
                                  > > > > > Jim.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Sherman
                                  I ran one of those 2 http://www.moonshine-still.com/ type on the left of this page several years ago. I used marbles in it. Run correctly, which was not that
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Mar 7 7:47 PM
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                                    I ran one of those 2" http://www.moonshine-still.com/ type on the left
                                    of this page several years ago. I used marbles in it. Run correctly,
                                    which was not that hard, it made the cleanest vodka I can remember.
                                    For clean spirits marbles work really well. I don't think marbles
                                    would be good for making flavored spirits. A good old pot is the way
                                    to go.

                                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "morganfield1"
                                    <morganfield1@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hey Pint, and anyone else,
                                    >
                                    > Am I correct in thinking that individual components of a wash (Meth,
                                    > ethol acetate, ect.) will tend to be more prevelant (I don't know
                                    > quite how to word this) at the head of the still (reflux) when the
                                    > head temp is near their boiling points. In other words, givin that
                                    > methanol is present thru out the run, most comes off first. Propanol
                                    > is also present thru out the run, most comes off after the heart. So
                                    > head temps are only an INDICATION of what is at the top of still
                                    > ready to be condensed?
                                    >
                                    > Also, as I am making whiskey, I don't want alot of reflux going on in
                                    > my column (LM), so I'm going to try marbles. Has anyone had any
                                    > experience they would like to pass on?
                                    >
                                    > Tip one, Morgan
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sherman" <pintoshine@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > In this case Riku, you are correct. Those temps you quote really
                                    > have
                                    > > less bearing on the distillation behavior as does the the vapor
                                    > > pressure each on exhibits at the various temperatures of
                                    > distillation.
                                    > > Raoult's law for non-ideal mixtures specifies that each component
                                    > will
                                    > > contribute to the gas mixture coming from the boiling mixture
                                    > through
                                    > > out the complete distillation until the mixture is exhausted.
                                    > > In plain words it says the the boiling point is a combination of all
                                    > > things in the mixture base on their mole fractions. Through the
                                    > > distillation batch that amount of each component gassing off will
                                    > > depend on how much is in the mixture, not at what temperature it is
                                    > > at. The equilibrium phase, the point at which the vapor pressure is
                                    > > equal atmospheric pressure, is the boiling point and is controlled
                                    > by
                                    > > the amounts of things in the mixture. This was well represented by
                                    > the
                                    > > charts recently discussed. The temperature does not control which
                                    > > things come out and which stay in. In the case of all the components
                                    > > you listed, each will occur throughout the distillation, just in
                                    > > different fractions. There are no clear delineations for any of the
                                    > > components.
                                    > > The methanol will be in all parts of the foreshots, heads hearts and
                                    > > tails equal to the ratio at which it started out until there is non
                                    > > left in the mix. The distribution of methanol to ethanol looks very
                                    > > linear when samples from a gas chromatograph are plotted. Luckily,
                                    > our
                                    > > production has no more of all these things than is in the original
                                    > > wash, weather it is beer, sugar wash, wine etc.
                                    > >
                                    > > I know too technical for new distiller but it is a verifiable fact.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • abbababbaccc
                                    When I played with sugar mashes and air cooled high separation systems I once compressed all the heads components from a 25 liters sugar mash to 50ml. That was
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Mar 8 12:41 AM
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                                      When I played with sugar mashes and air cooled high separation systems
                                      I once compressed all the heads components from a 25 liters sugar mash
                                      to 50ml. That was some really disgusting stuff and took some 24+ hours
                                      to do at 300W. Even then there was considerable amount of ethanol in
                                      that mix. All those heads components can indeed be concentrated and
                                      removed, the question is how concentrated we want them and how long
                                      can it take.

                                      Cheers, Riku

                                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sherman" <pintoshine@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > If you are running a lot of reflux on a true column that has the
                                      > capability of high separation, which would run on the order of 60 feet
                                      > tall to get enough temperature gradient, it would be possible to
                                      > separate the fractions. But it takes a column 20 feet with high
                                      > concentrations of ethanol just to separate ethyl acetate from 95%
                                      > ethanol. These fractions are very hard to isolate. Usually it takes
                                      > specialized solvents. That is why no matter how clean a vodka or how
                                      > many processes it goes through, there is always a distinct flavor
                                      > profile associated with each. I used to consider myself a vodka expert
                                      > but there have been so many new ones hit the market lately one can't
                                      > possible keep up.
                                      > Take the best column you have and try to get it to equilibriate at the
                                      > temperature of methanol then see how much liquid you get and how long
                                      > it takes it to lose equilibrium at that temp. I can't do it with my
                                      > 42"x 3.5" column because there is not enough methanol or any other
                                      > fracton other than ethanol and water.
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • chefriverrat
                                      For my pot still i packed it with marbles it gives a verry nice pot stil but wont strip all f flavers if you dont want but will give clean flaverd spiret on
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Mar 8 6:49 AM
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                                        For my pot still i packed it with marbles it gives a verry nice pot
                                        stil but wont strip all f flavers if you dont want but will give
                                        clean flaverd spiret on second run
                                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sherman" <pintoshine@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I ran one of those 2" http://www.moonshine-still.com/ type on the
                                        left
                                        > of this page several years ago. I used marbles in it. Run correctly,
                                        > which was not that hard, it made the cleanest vodka I can remember.
                                        > For clean spirits marbles work really well. I don't think marbles
                                        > would be good for making flavored spirits. A good old pot is the way
                                        > to go.
                                        >
                                        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "morganfield1"
                                        > <morganfield1@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hey Pint, and anyone else,
                                        > >
                                        > > Am I correct in thinking that individual components of a wash
                                        (Meth,
                                        > > ethol acetate, ect.) will tend to be more prevelant (I don't know
                                        > > quite how to word this) at the head of the still (reflux) when
                                        the
                                        > > head temp is near their boiling points. In other words, givin
                                        that
                                        > > methanol is present thru out the run, most comes off first.
                                        Propanol
                                        > > is also present thru out the run, most comes off after the heart.
                                        So
                                        > > head temps are only an INDICATION of what is at the top of still
                                        > > ready to be condensed?
                                        > >
                                        > > Also, as I am making whiskey, I don't want alot of reflux going
                                        on in
                                        > > my column (LM), so I'm going to try marbles. Has anyone had any
                                        > > experience they would like to pass on?
                                        > >
                                        > > Tip one, Morgan
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Sherman" <pintoshine@>
                                        > > wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > In this case Riku, you are correct. Those temps you quote
                                        really
                                        > > have
                                        > > > less bearing on the distillation behavior as does the the vapor
                                        > > > pressure each on exhibits at the various temperatures of
                                        > > distillation.
                                        > > > Raoult's law for non-ideal mixtures specifies that each
                                        component
                                        > > will
                                        > > > contribute to the gas mixture coming from the boiling mixture
                                        > > through
                                        > > > out the complete distillation until the mixture is exhausted.
                                        > > > In plain words it says the the boiling point is a combination
                                        of all
                                        > > > things in the mixture base on their mole fractions. Through the
                                        > > > distillation batch that amount of each component gassing off
                                        will
                                        > > > depend on how much is in the mixture, not at what temperature
                                        it is
                                        > > > at. The equilibrium phase, the point at which the vapor
                                        pressure is
                                        > > > equal atmospheric pressure, is the boiling point and is
                                        controlled
                                        > > by
                                        > > > the amounts of things in the mixture. This was well represented
                                        by
                                        > > the
                                        > > > charts recently discussed. The temperature does not control
                                        which
                                        > > > things come out and which stay in. In the case of all the
                                        components
                                        > > > you listed, each will occur throughout the distillation, just in
                                        > > > different fractions. There are no clear delineations for any of
                                        the
                                        > > > components.
                                        > > > The methanol will be in all parts of the foreshots, heads
                                        hearts and
                                        > > > tails equal to the ratio at which it started out until there is
                                        non
                                        > > > left in the mix. The distribution of methanol to ethanol looks
                                        very
                                        > > > linear when samples from a gas chromatograph are plotted.
                                        Luckily,
                                        > > our
                                        > > > production has no more of all these things than is in the
                                        original
                                        > > > wash, weather it is beer, sugar wash, wine etc.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I know too technical for new distiller but it is a verifiable
                                        fact.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
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