Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Technical Observations: Expert Advice Neded

Expand Messages
  • Trid
    ... You hit it right on the head. You need to discard the idea that you re to control the boiler temperature. What vaporizes is not pure ethanol...ever.
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 3 4:25 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chevisn7" <chevisn7@...>
      > I have three thermometers, Two are glass industrial grade and one is
      > digital rated in .10 (one tenth of a degree increments) All read the
      > same head temperatures. 81C / 179 degrees as the constant to produce
      > condensate.
      >
      > Each batch has had a abv of around 16 to 17% alcohol.
      >
      > I am trying to follow what Morgan said in his reply. What I do not
      > understand is this.
      > If pure alcohol is said to vaporizes at 173 degrees. I would expect
      > to see alcohol vapor in the column when the mash reaches this
      > temperature. This is where I may be wrong and where part of my
      > problem lies.

      You hit it right on the head. You need to discard the idea that
      you're to control the boiler temperature. What vaporizes is not pure
      ethanol...ever. Because ethanol is 100% miscible with water, they
      both vaporize together. You can never get one without the water.

      Remember, water will evaporate at any temperature above freezing, it's
      just that the hotter you make it, the faster it evaporates. The same
      is true with ethanol. Because they're both present in the wash,
      they'll both be evaporating at a certain rate based on the
      temperature. Once you hit boiling, the temperature will not rise, but
      the rate of evaporation will continue to increase if you were to add
      more heat. What happens is that the mix of two liquids of differing
      boiling temperatures causes the actual boiling temperature to be
      somewhere between them...higher than the lower boiling liquid, but
      lower than the higher boiling liquid. This temperature is related to
      the ratio of the mix.

      > If the wash begins to boil at 180 degrees then I would expect
      > everything that vaporizes below this point to be mixing in the steam
      > that is going up the column. Again I may be wrong and missing a
      > point or two of the process.

      See where this theory breaks down? Even though it is boiling at 180,
      that which has a boiling temperature below as well as that which has a
      higher boiling temperature will be present in the rising vapor. As
      the ratio of those components change, the boiler temperature will
      rise...all by itself.

      > I understand that when the still is in reflux mode the condensed
      > liquid is cooler than the vapor coming up the column. This cooled
      > liquid cools the vapor rising up the column
      > causing the higher temp vapors to return to the pot to be boiled off
      > again. But if the column head temp remains at 81C / 179 degrees then
      > everything entering the condenser is still mixed and has no way of
      > being separated. Again I may be missing something here.

      Almost. The cool condensate does partially condense the higher
      boiling liquids out of the rising vapor, but it goes both ways. The
      vapor reheats the liquid coming down and releases the lower boiling
      liquids from the falling condensate. The packing in your column
      raises the surface area in which the vapor and liquid make contact
      which makes it more efficient in doing so.

      As such, the vapor rising to the top should be cooler than your boiler
      temperature. The measure of this is the head temperature. If it's
      higher than the alcohol/water azeotrope, then you're not getting
      complete separation (more vapor going up the column than the falling
      condensate can separate in the space of your column given the amount
      of surface area your packing provides). If it's less than your
      boiler temperature, that means your reflux is working too hard and
      you're condensing all of your ethanol back to the boiler and only the
      more volatile components are getting past (acetone and such).

      > Yes I was trying to control the head temperatures by varying my heat
      > to the Boiler. I did this because the head temp was above what I
      > read
      > it needed to be. I also did it because I read the temp would level
      > off at around 170 degrees and slowly rise every 15 minutes or so.
      > This did not happen. The temp stayed at 170 and would not go up.
      > When
      > the heat was slightly increased the head temp instantly went to
      > 81C / 179F. Again I may be doing something wrong or not
      > understanding the entire process.

      You're catching up. Actually, you're giving us clear enough
      indications to spot exactly where you can improve. Where you increase
      your boiler input (more heat) it instantly goes up to the saturation
      temperature of the alcohol/water azeotrope (plus or minus very
      little). This is a good thing. What you do at this point is to
      settle on a particular heat input and leave it there. Quick
      question...are you using a propane/gas or electric? If it's electric
      and you're using a traditional thermostatic switch to control
      temperature, this will have to be fixed before anything else will be
      of use. If not, nevermind...on to the next step.

      To maintain the head temperature (the measure of your product purity)
      you'll adjust your output valve instead of your heat input. Remember
      that your reflux cools your vapor on its way down to the boiler. If
      it's running too hot, adjust your valve to send more back to the
      boiler (this increases your reflux ratio). Conversely, if your head
      temperature is too cool or your takeoff rate is low, adjust your valve
      to take more product off and thus reduce your reflux ratio. Keep the
      heat input constant regardless of what the temperature of the boiler.

      If, for example, you can take off 1 liter per hour doing a
      zero-reflux, no packing stripping run, then a 0.5 liter per hour
      reflux run would indicate you're refluxing at 50% (or 1:1). Play with
      your rig in a couple different situations and record the results of
      each (takeoff rate, temperatures, no reflux, full heat, and so on) and
      see how they differ. Playing with it will really tune you in to the
      particulars of your rig (no two are exactly alike, so figures quoted
      are only estimates, anyway). Then work out how well it performs for a
      given heat input with no reflux, with 50% reflux, with 75% and so on.
      You'll get it dialed in before you know it.

      Trid
      -getting withdrawals because my rig is packed up for moving
    • morganfield1
      Hello again, Chuck, I also want to apoligize for mis-classifying your rig. That is not a CM, that is a valved reflux LM rig, and as such should give you very
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 3 5:07 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello again, Chuck,

        I also want to apoligize for mis-classifying your rig. That is not a
        CM, that is a valved reflux LM rig, and as such should give you very
        good results. If I had looked at the pictures you offered earlier, I
        could have avoided the mis-information I gave you.
        But, back to the point, History Channel may have "aluded" to the
        ability to extract alchohol from a mash by "holding" the temperature
        at 172 deg.'s, that is not how it works. I think that Harry will
        agree, this is one of the hardest things for beginners to get their
        head around, and many keyboards have been worn out trying to explain
        this. But, here 'goes. It's not rocket science (it's bio-chemical
        science!!)
        There are three kinds of basic elemental conditions (combinations of
        stuff); solutions, mixtures, and compounds. A solution is a
        combination of two or more things that once combined, will seperate
        out of each other if they are let to set for a time (such as oil and
        water). A mixture is a combination that once mixed, they will stay
        mixed unless a physical energy is exerted upon them. Sugar and water
        is such a combination. Water is the most common solvent, it will mix
        with just about anything (except oil). A compound is combination
        formed at the chemical level, which can only be seperated by chemical
        means, super collider, or a really big hammer. Scratch the really big
        hammer!
        The other most common solvent is our friend, ethanol. Mix etho and
        water together, you have a mixture. The physical energy applied to
        seperate them is distillation. By the way, an oil refinery is a big
        distillery, but that's another topic. Ethanol vaporizes at 172 deg.,
        water vaporizes at 212 deg. Now here's the important part, a mixture
        of etho and water will vaporize (boil) somewhere between the two
        temperatures depending on the percentage of one to the other. Over on
        the "distillers" group, Sherman has posted a graph showing the
        relationship between boiling temps and vapor temps and the
        corresponding temps and percentages of both. Fantastic job,by the
        way, Pint, very nice. OK, you did good, too, Harry. I would strongly
        suggest you wonder on over there and check it out.
        OK, now at this point, Harry would give you the facts and figures,
        but I'm going to let you do your own research (because I'm lazy).
        Let's say your wash started to boil at 180 degrees, the vapor is a
        mixture of methanol, ethanol, propanol and a few other things
        (yummy), but.... the stuff with the lower boiling temps will come off
        first, and that is what makes up MOST of what is in the vapor, and
        that is what collects at the column head. You have also noticed, no
        doubt, that the top of the column remains cool for awhile after the
        wash has started boiling. This is because the sides of the column (in
        a un-packed column) are still cool and condensing the vapor as it
        rises, and the liquid falls back down the column. It takes about 20
        min. for my column to heat up.
        OK, back to the point. As the run continues, the amount of etho in
        the wash slowly diminishes. As this happens, the temperature of the
        boiling wash will increase (because there is more and more water in
        the ratio). This is not to be feared, it is just the normal physical
        properties of the wash coming into play. It doesn't mean the
        distillate coming off is lower quality (remember I said "wash
        temperature). The head temperature is the one to watch. That's why I
        said "set your heat input and leave it for the duration of the run".
        If you have the ability, put the boots to her to get her up to temp,
        then back her down to around 1500 wts, let the column equalize (let
        the head temp reach a steady reading for 20 min or so, and there's
        alot of oppinion on that), adjust your drip rate for the purity
        you're looking for, sit back and enjoy the show.
        Wow, I'm starting to get "Harry fingers". That's enough for one
        night. You might want to go to the "homedistiller" site, check
        out "still operation", I think it's under the "distilling" menu, but
        I'm not sure. I hope this helped.

        Tip one, Moran
      • chevisn7
        CD Prevous post on the ABV No Packing no reflux: first run 80+% Second Run 85 to 90% Third Run 92% With 24 inches of Packing, no reflux First Run 85 to 90%
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 4 4:50 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          CD
          Prevous post on the ABV
          No Packing no reflux: first run 80+%
          Second Run 85 to 90%
          Third Run 92%

          With 24 inches of Packing, no reflux
          First Run 85 to 90%
          Second run 92%
          Third run 92%

          With Reflux 3 to 1
          First Run 90 to 92% abv

          Hope this helps
          Chuck

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "C D" <vette69@...> wrote:
          >
          > You never mentioned what ABV % you're getting and at what temps. That
          > could certainly help diagnose the problems. Oil-e-ness is too
          > subjective to quantify.
          >
          > I built a valved reflux with 2"x28" column filled with 1 liter of
          > rashig rings. I boiled 3 runs of some off-tasting grape wine. Once I
          > set the output valve and reflux valve correctly, I could no longer
          > taste any grape-e-ness once the ABV% reached 75 or above. Everything
          > collected below 75% from prior runs was run through again at almost
          > max reflux. I certainly got a clean 90% ABV product. I could have
          > gotten higher but didn't want to spend the time. 180 proof was good
          > enough.
          >
        • chevisn7
          Thanks Harry, Morgan, CD, Trid, hopefully I did not leave any one out. Your answers have been very helpful. I now have a much clearer understanding of how the
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 4 6:35 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks Harry, Morgan, CD, Trid, hopefully I did not leave any one out.
            Your answers have been very helpful. I now have a much clearer
            understanding of how the still works and how the ratio or percentage
            of alcohol to water effects the process. You call this a hobby. Once
            I get this mastered I am considering taking up Brain Surgery as my
            next hobby. But I do admit, the process is not so bad once you grasp
            the concept. Your help makes understanding the process a lot easier.
            Thanks again.

            I read the references you referred to, needless to say all of your
            answers are much more understandable

            Based on the information you provided it would seem everything is
            working properly and the temperatures I am recording are
            satisfactory.

            Now my efforts will be to find out where the off taste is coming
            from. I took the still apart again and cleaned the inside with
            vinegar and a stainless steel scrubber mounted to a drill. The inside
            shines like a new penny. I repeated the boil out for over an hour
            with vinegar and steam. I also boiled the copper scrubbers in
            vinegar and rinsed them real good. Hopefully one more possible
            problem eliminated. If I missed something in the cleaning process
            please let me know.

            I will run my last batch through again with the scrubbers installed
            using Reflux to see if the smell and taste are improved. Now that I
            have an understanding of the process I won't be so worried about the
            temps in the Boiler. Also have a new batch started, hopefully the
            results will be improved.

            I still have two questions haunting me.

            I now understand that the boiling point of the mash is relevant to
            the ratio of alcohol to water in the mix. On the first run my ratio
            was between 15 and 17% abv. On the second and third stripping runs
            the ratio was 50% abv. On the second and third run the wash did boil
            sooner at a lower temperature. If I remember on the first run it
            boiled at 190 degrees and on the second and third run it boiled at
            180 degrees. But the head temperature at the top of the vapor column
            remained the same, 81C / 179F on both runs. Is this figure correct.
            Again I may be using mechanics rather than chemistry. Chemistry
            wasn't my best subject. I would think it should have been lower on
            the second and third run. Again I was messing with the Boiler heat
            to try to lower the head temp. But 81C / 179 was where product
            started to condense.

            My second question. I am still having a little trouble understanding
            how the tails are being removed from the final product during the
            early part of the production run when the vaporization temp of the
            Boiler and the temperature at the head of the vapor column are higher
            than the vaporization temp of the unwanted product (The Tails). It
            would seem the unwanted product would still be suspended in the
            vapor. What keeps the Tails in the Boiler where they belong. You
            may have already answered this question and I just missed the point.
            I will read your answers again and do a little more research.
            Possibly just a case of mental block. The fog usually clears about
            2:oo in the morning a day or so down the road. But if I did miss
            something thanks in advance for helping out.
            Chuck
          • morganfield1
            Hi Chuck, Answeres (or feable attemps at answeres) interspersed. ... ratio ... boil ... column ... correct. ... The figure sounds about right. Remember, the
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 4 2:19 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Chuck,

              Answeres (or feable attemps at answeres) interspersed.

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chevisn7" <chevisn7@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I still have two questions haunting me.
              >
              > I now understand that the boiling point of the mash is relevant to
              > the ratio of alcohol to water in the mix. On the first run my
              ratio
              > was between 15 and 17% abv. On the second and third stripping runs
              > the ratio was 50% abv. On the second and third run the wash did
              boil
              > sooner at a lower temperature. If I remember on the first run it
              > boiled at 190 degrees and on the second and third run it boiled at
              > 180 degrees. But the head temperature at the top of the vapor
              column
              > remained the same, 81C / 179F on both runs. Is this figure
              correct.
              > Again I may be using mechanics rather than chemistry. Chemistry
              > wasn't my best subject. I would think it should have been lower on
              > the second and third run.

              The figure sounds about right. Remember, the boiler temperature is a
              function of the alchohol to water ratio, the head temperature is the
              temperature of the VAPOR at the top of your still and is an
              INDICATION of the type of alchohol there. So, let's say we start with
              a stripped run that begins to boil at 180 deg. The head temp is 174
              after equalization. As the alchohol is depleting, the temp of the
              boil begins to rise, but the alchohol vapor rising up the column is
              still ethanol, therefore the temp at the still head remains 174-178.
              Believe me, when tails start to come thru on a stripped run, that
              temp will shoot up like a rocket. That's the beauty of doing two runs
              for high proof spirits, the cuts are very clear. This only applies
              (this should draw some flak) to reflux runs. Running a pot column
              still, the temp slowly goes up thru out the run, and cuts are best
              made by taste, smell, and sight (you can see them on your
              fingernail). Most reflux stillers don't even run a thermometer on the
              boiler. The only reason I have one is it gives me an idea when the
              boil is about to start, so I'm not running cooling water needlessly.

              Again I was messing with the Boiler heat
              > to try to lower the head temp. But 81C / 179 was where product
              > started to condense.

              Once the column has equalized, don't mess with the heater. You can't
              control head temp by adjusting boiler heat input.
              >
              > My second question. I am still having a little trouble
              understanding
              > how the tails are being removed from the final product during the
              > early part of the production run when the vaporization temp of the
              > Boiler and the temperature at the head of the vapor column are
              higher
              > than the vaporization temp of the unwanted product (The Tails)

              A; Temperatures aren't written in stone, each still will behave with
              it's own temperatures. Where they start, and how far and fast they
              rise is the important issue.

              B; Removing tails from the lower boiling point fractions is a
              function of the packing material. That is why it is important to keep
              the heat constant and steady so the column remains equalized thru out
              the run. If you're looking for high proof, clean tasting spirit, a
              packed column is the only way to go. As the vapor, with all it's
              impurities, rises up the column thru the packing, it comes in contact
              with condensed liquid falling down the packing. Higher boiling point
              vapors are condensed by the falling liquid and return to the boiler
              (this is the short version of events, film at eleven!)while lower
              boiling point vapors remain in vapor form and continue up the column.

              (I hate writing these long disertations 'cause the more I write, the
              better chance I have of screwing up and looking like an idiot! I am
              no expert on this stuff, and I don't want to give anybody bad
              information, besides looking like an idiot.)

              Tip one, Morgan

              >
            • chevisn7
              Morgan No chance on looking or sounding like an idiot. I have that spot reserved. For a while anyway. Your explinations make a lot of sense and have given me a
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 4 2:43 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                Morgan
                No chance on looking or sounding like an idiot. I have that spot
                reserved. For a while anyway. Your explinations make a lot of sense
                and have given me a better understanding of what is happening so I
                can make the proper adjustments.

                At this point my deduction is the bad flavors were either comming
                from trash remaining in the still after the build or the yeast I was
                using crapped some nasties into the wash.

                The still has been re-cleaned to the point where is shines on the
                inside like a brand new penny and a new batch is brewing. I will let
                you know the outcome.

                The only question that remains is how do I break the habbit of
                sampling the brew as it comes out of the still. Disregard. I would
                listen to that answer about as well as a I keep New Years
                Resolutions. Jan 2nd they are out the door.
                Thanks
                Chuck





                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "morganfield1"
                <morganfield1@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Chuck,
                >
                > Answeres (or feable attemps at answeres) interspersed.
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chevisn7" <chevisn7@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > I still have two questions haunting me.
                > >
                > > I now understand that the boiling point of the mash is relevant
                to
                > > the ratio of alcohol to water in the mix. On the first run my
                > ratio
                > > was between 15 and 17% abv. On the second and third stripping
                runs
                > > the ratio was 50% abv. On the second and third run the wash did
                > boil
                > > sooner at a lower temperature. If I remember on the first run it
                > > boiled at 190 degrees and on the second and third run it boiled
                at
                > > 180 degrees. But the head temperature at the top of the vapor
                > column
                > > remained the same, 81C / 179F on both runs. Is this figure
                > correct.
                > > Again I may be using mechanics rather than chemistry. Chemistry
                > > wasn't my best subject. I would think it should have been lower
                on
                > > the second and third run.
                >
                > The figure sounds about right. Remember, the boiler temperature is
                a
                > function of the alchohol to water ratio, the head temperature is
                the
                > temperature of the VAPOR at the top of your still and is an
                > INDICATION of the type of alchohol there. So, let's say we start
                with
                > a stripped run that begins to boil at 180 deg. The head temp is 174
                > after equalization. As the alchohol is depleting, the temp of the
                > boil begins to rise, but the alchohol vapor rising up the column is
                > still ethanol, therefore the temp at the still head remains 174-
                178.
                > Believe me, when tails start to come thru on a stripped run, that
                > temp will shoot up like a rocket. That's the beauty of doing two
                runs
                > for high proof spirits, the cuts are very clear. This only applies
                > (this should draw some flak) to reflux runs. Running a pot column
                > still, the temp slowly goes up thru out the run, and cuts are best
                > made by taste, smell, and sight (you can see them on your
                > fingernail). Most reflux stillers don't even run a thermometer on
                the
                > boiler. The only reason I have one is it gives me an idea when the
                > boil is about to start, so I'm not running cooling water needlessly.
                >
                > Again I was messing with the Boiler heat
                > > to try to lower the head temp. But 81C / 179 was where product
                > > started to condense.
                >
                > Once the column has equalized, don't mess with the heater. You
                can't
                > control head temp by adjusting boiler heat input.
                > >
                > > My second question. I am still having a little trouble
                > understanding
                > > how the tails are being removed from the final product during the
                > > early part of the production run when the vaporization temp of
                the
                > > Boiler and the temperature at the head of the vapor column are
                > higher
                > > than the vaporization temp of the unwanted product (The Tails)
                >
                > A; Temperatures aren't written in stone, each still will behave
                with
                > it's own temperatures. Where they start, and how far and fast they
                > rise is the important issue.
                >
                > B; Removing tails from the lower boiling point fractions is a
                > function of the packing material. That is why it is important to
                keep
                > the heat constant and steady so the column remains equalized thru
                out
                > the run. If you're looking for high proof, clean tasting spirit, a
                > packed column is the only way to go. As the vapor, with all it's
                > impurities, rises up the column thru the packing, it comes in
                contact
                > with condensed liquid falling down the packing. Higher boiling
                point
                > vapors are condensed by the falling liquid and return to the boiler
                > (this is the short version of events, film at eleven!)while lower
                > boiling point vapors remain in vapor form and continue up the
                column.
                >
                > (I hate writing these long disertations 'cause the more I write,
                the
                > better chance I have of screwing up and looking like an idiot! I am
                > no expert on this stuff, and I don't want to give anybody bad
                > information, besides looking like an idiot.)
                >
                > Tip one, Morgan
                >
                > >
                >
              • C D
                Chuck My best guess would be that your still had crap in it causing oily taste even though you were running under reflux and getting 75% ABV. Even yeasty
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 4 3:18 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Chuck
                  My best guess would be that your still had crap in it causing oily
                  taste even though you were running under reflux and getting >75% ABV.
                  Even yeasty caused bad flavor should be distilled out at that high a
                  proof.
                • morganfield1
                  Wait, there s more?! I noticed that you mentioned your wash was between 15 & 17%, and you re using eleven eighteen. Great yeast, but you might try backing down
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 4 5:35 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Wait, there's more?!

                    I noticed that you mentioned your wash was between 15 & 17%, and
                    you're using eleven eighteen. Great yeast, but you might try backing
                    down the fermentables a bit. A 17% wash, partiquarly one done at a
                    temperature of 80 or 90 deg, will produce alot of nasties. Again, a
                    good column will seperate the good from the bad, but next wash, try
                    shooting for around 12% and see how that run turns out. Keep notes of
                    your runs, so you have something to compare to. It has helped me alot
                    over the years, and still does.

                    I never asked you, you say you can adjust the heat going to your
                    boiler, how is that accomplished?

                    Tip one, Morgan

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chevisn7" <chevisn7@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Morgan
                    > No chance on looking or sounding like an idiot. I have that spot
                    > reserved. For a while anyway. Your explinations make a lot of sense
                    > and have given me a better understanding of what is happening so I
                    > can make the proper adjustments.
                    >
                    > At this point my deduction is the bad flavors were either comming
                    > from trash remaining in the still after the build or the yeast I
                    was
                    > using crapped some nasties into the wash.
                    >
                    > The still has been re-cleaned to the point where is shines on the
                    > inside like a brand new penny and a new batch is brewing. I will
                    let
                    > you know the outcome.
                    >
                    > The only question that remains is how do I break the habbit of
                    > sampling the brew as it comes out of the still. Disregard. I would
                    > listen to that answer about as well as a I keep New Years
                    > Resolutions. Jan 2nd they are out the door.
                    > Thanks
                    > Chuck
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Tom Smith
                    Chuck, I don t know if I qualify as a newbie or not as I have been experimenting for about 4yrs. I too went through what your going through and I learned a lot
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 5 5:39 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Chuck,
                      I don't know if I qualify as a newbie or not as I have been
                      experimenting for about 4yrs. I too went through what your going
                      through and I learned a lot by trying everything. water, yeast,
                      temps etc. what I finally found was while although knowing your temps
                      and abv are usefull tools you can't make quality hooch by the
                      numbers. the thing that finally improved my stuff was learning to
                      make the cuts properly. an oldtimer told me that when making your
                      cuts to water down the distilllate to about 20% abv. I could'nt
                      believe how much easier I detected the heads (ethyl acetate) I think
                      they call it and tails. I found that by taking a middle fifth cut
                      appx. the stuff markedly improved. I also found that the best flavors
                      seem to me at least, are just before the tails turn bitter. so I
                      allways start using small containers when the middle run starts to
                      lose that real sweet ethanol taste. Previously I was trying to go by
                      the cuts on tony's site and alcohol percent in the parrot. but when
                      trying to make corn whiskey it always had a slightly bitter after
                      taste. I am presently working with a professor at a major university
                      and he insists that all of the cuts can be made with a real time
                      analysis by a gas chromatagraph. but I am yet to be convinced.

                      sorry for being so long winded.

                      would be interested in anything that any of the other member think of
                      this post.

                      Youngblood
                    • chevisn7
                      Hi Morgan and all of you that continue to help out with my dilemmas. All of you have been a tremendous help. Your inputs of information all add up to a greater
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 5 7:49 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Morgan and all of you that continue to help out with my dilemmas.
                        All of you have been a tremendous help. Your inputs of information
                        all add up to a greater understanding of the distillation process and
                        how to control what is going on.

                        Morgan you asked how I adjust my heat to the Boiler. Simply I just
                        turn down the flame. I have a good flame heat control that came with
                        my Turkey Fryer Burner. In this case I kept turning the flame up and
                        down every time I noticed any type of movement in my head
                        temperature. It head temp wanted to stabalize either at 70C where
                        nothing was procuded or it wanted to stabalize at 81C. If I raised
                        the heat just a little the head temp jumped to 90C. So I did what I
                        could to keep it at 81C

                        Since I did not know what I was doing, ( See I told you I had that
                        Idiot spot reserved) I felt if the temp went over 81C I would pick up
                        additional nasties in the brew. So I kept fiddling with the flame
                        every few minutes or so to keep the head temp at 81C during the
                        entire run on every run.

                        As I now understand it I am to run at high temp to get things warmed
                        up then turn the heat down to where the column temp stabilizes at 79
                        to 81C and let it run with no adjustments. When the alcohol
                        diminishes in the Boiler the heat will automatically start to rise.
                        Since I do not want to keep the tails at this time. When the temp
                        starts to rise it is time to make a cut and stop the process when the
                        taste is not what I am looking for. Simplicity at its best!

                        I am going to switch to a double element 2000 watt electric heat
                        source. Total 4000 watts. It is much cheaper here to use electricity
                        than gas. One direct switched element for heat up and one on a 2000
                        watt rheostat so I can control the amount of heat to the Boiler.
                        Also with the increased safety of not using a flame it makes it a win
                        win situation.

                        I will try the EC-1118 at 12% abv as you recommend to see if it makes
                        a difference in the taste. I can control my fermentation temperature
                        and I have been able to keep the temperature at 77 degrees throughout
                        the entire fermentation process. I understand the little yeasties
                        produce far less nasties at a controlled tempetature below 80
                        degrees.


                        Chuck

                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "morganfield1"
                        <morganfield1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Wait, there's more?!
                        >
                        > I noticed that you mentioned your wash was between 15 & 17%, and
                        > you're using eleven eighteen. Great yeast, but you might try
                        backing
                        > down the fermentables a bit. A 17% wash, partiquarly one done at a
                        > temperature of 80 or 90 deg, will produce alot of nasties. Again, a
                        > good column will seperate the good from the bad, but next wash, try
                        > shooting for around 12% and see how that run turns out. Keep notes
                        of
                        > your runs, so you have something to compare to. It has helped me
                        alot
                        > over the years, and still does.
                        >
                        > I never asked you, you say you can adjust the heat going to your
                        > boiler, how is that accomplished?
                        >
                        > Tip one, Morgan
                        >
                        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chevisn7" <chevisn7@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Morgan
                        > > No chance on looking or sounding like an idiot. I have that spot
                        > > reserved. For a while anyway. Your explinations make a lot of
                        sense
                        > > and have given me a better understanding of what is happening so
                        I
                        > > can make the proper adjustments.
                        > >
                        > > At this point my deduction is the bad flavors were either comming
                        > > from trash remaining in the still after the build or the yeast I
                        > was
                        > > using crapped some nasties into the wash.
                        > >
                        > > The still has been re-cleaned to the point where is shines on the
                        > > inside like a brand new penny and a new batch is brewing. I will
                        > let
                        > > you know the outcome.
                        > >
                        > > The only question that remains is how do I break the habbit of
                        > > sampling the brew as it comes out of the still. Disregard. I
                        would
                        > > listen to that answer about as well as a I keep New Years
                        > > Resolutions. Jan 2nd they are out the door.
                        > > Thanks
                        > > Chuck
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • morganfield1
                        Hi Chuck, Sounds like you re getting the idea. I can t help you much with the electric elements and rheostat, I just have my boiler sitting on top of a 1000
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 5 1:19 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Chuck,

                          Sounds like you're getting the idea. I can't help you much with the
                          electric elements and rheostat, I just have my boiler sitting on top
                          of a 1000 wt. hot plate. I can tell you that when you're dealing with
                          power controllers, what ever style they be, you are dealing with kilo-
                          watts, and that means heat, alot of it. And that heat has to go
                          somewhere, either to the boiler, or to the controlling unit. What I'm
                          trying to say is, most people attach a heat sink (of some kind) to
                          their controller to draw off the extra heat. HTH.

                          Tip one, Morgan

                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chevisn7" <chevisn7@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Morgan and all of you that continue to help out with my
                          dilemmas.
                          > All of you have been a tremendous help. Your inputs of information
                          > all add up to a greater understanding of the distillation process
                          and
                          > how to control what is going on.
                          >
                          >
                        • chevisn7
                          Hi Morgan No Worries Mate: I have a functional knowledge of electricity and electrical components. Same principle as your stove or hot plate burner. The only
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 6 6:33 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Morgan
                            No Worries Mate: I have a functional knowledge of electricity and
                            electrical components. Same principle as your stove or hot plate
                            burner. The only difference is you are placing the element in the
                            liquid like in an electric hot water heater.

                            No heat sink is needed and no temperature relay switch. The reostat
                            controls the amount of electricity supplied to the heating element.
                            This in turn controls the amount of heat the element puts out.

                            The lack of a tempeature over ride relay like hot water heaters and
                            most new products have today will gives very percise control of the
                            heat supplied to the Boiler.

                            I have a hot plate but its cycle on and off feature caused heat up
                            problems. And being an outside heat source much of the heat is
                            waisted to the air. Also the new hot plates I have found are not like
                            the like the hot plates of a few years back where you could set the
                            temp and they would remain on.
                            Chuck

                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "morganfield1"
                            <morganfield1@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Chuck,
                            >
                            > Sounds like you're getting the idea. I can't help you much with the
                            > electric elements and rheostat, I just have my boiler sitting on
                            top
                            > of a 1000 wt. hot plate. I can tell you that when you're dealing
                            with
                            > power controllers, what ever style they be, you are dealing with
                            kilo-
                            > watts, and that means heat, alot of it. And that heat has to go
                            > somewhere, either to the boiler, or to the controlling unit. What
                            I'm
                            > trying to say is, most people attach a heat sink (of some kind) to
                            > their controller to draw off the extra heat. HTH.
                            >
                            > Tip one, Morgan
                            >
                            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chevisn7" <chevisn7@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Morgan and all of you that continue to help out with my
                            > dilemmas.
                            > > All of you have been a tremendous help. Your inputs of
                            information
                            > > all add up to a greater understanding of the distillation process
                            > and
                            > > how to control what is going on.
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • morganfield1
                            Hi Chuck, Sounds like you re on your way then, good luck, have fun, and be safe. One of the most important things to remember about this hobby is, you can make
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 6 1:01 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Chuck,

                              Sounds like you're on your way then, good luck, have fun, and be safe.
                              One of the most important things to remember about this hobby is, you
                              can make it as simple or as complicated as you like, and with a little
                              practise, you'll get good hooch.

                              Tip one, Morgan

                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chevisn7" <chevisn7@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Morgan
                              > No Worries Mate: I have a functional knowledge of electricity and
                              > electrical components. Same principle as your stove or hot plate
                              > burner. The only difference is you are placing the element in the
                              > liquid like in an electric hot water heater.
                              >
                              >
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.