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Re: The wash is heating up

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  • burrows206
    Hi BILL1BURP, Your 78 F is 22 C. and is good and OK for fermenting wine. But turbo is different and acts to the extremes. The very act and speed of the
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 2, 2008
      Hi BILL1BURP,
      Your 78 F is 22 C. and is good and OK for fermenting wine. But
      turbo is different and acts to the extremes. The very act and speed
      of the conversion of the sugar turning to alcohol then turning to Co2
      will have quite a few wanted and unwanted side effects. A bit like
      when you rub your hands together in cold weather they warm up with
      the friction which increases the blood flow to that area and makes
      you warmer, that's a wanted side effect.
      The same thing is happening to your yeast and sugar doing all
      that converting, cavorting and reproducing. And that, as we all know
      creates heat. Anyway moving swiftly along, the ambient room
      temperature needs to be lowered. So move the lot into the cellar,
      garage or somewhere cooler than the nice convenient place you have it
      residing, this animal you are breeding is not wine.
      It'll still heat up in the cooler atmosphere but the outside of your
      fermenter should disperse the heat build up in the cooler air.
      Now that should work OK for 25litres/5gallons but the bigger the
      quantity the more heat you will have to loose exponentially. For
      example 10 gallons you need to loose 4 times plus as much heat.
      Let me try to give you a simple example how this heat thing can
      grow out of all control:-
      A paving slab 2ft. x 2ft. = 4sq. feet.
      You would logically think to get twice the area you would double up
      the paving slab side measurements to 4ft. x 4ft. = 16sq. feet. This
      is 4 times the area you will end up with
      Now we are dealing with heat and volume in three dimensions
      which is more than the power of two and way beyond my capabilities.
      But we have the people here on this forum, who do know how to
      calculate this lot, so step up guys?
      The upshot of all this is, keep your fermenting turbo washes in
      manageable batches that you can distil in a reasonable time span
      Geoff


      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Miller" <bill1burp@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > My heat in the house is 72 degrees. I started my wash this morning
      with
      > turbo 24, 14 pounds of sugar and 6 gallons of water. I have been
      > keeping an eye on the temp of my wash bucket and it is rising. It
      is
      > now up to 86 degrees.
      >
      > Is this reaction suppose to happen? How high should I let the temp
      go
      > before I get worried?
      >
      > The best for last
      > BILL1BURP
      >
    • jamesonbeam1
      This reaction is to be expected - especially with fast acting / attenuating yeasts like turbos (heat is one of the by-products of the sugar to alcohol / CO2
      Message 2 of 7 , Feb 2, 2008
        This reaction is to be expected - especially with fast acting /
        attenuating yeasts like turbos (heat is one of the by-products of the
        sugar to alcohol / CO2 converstion.

        If you look at the yeast chart at:
        http://www.lallemandwine.us/products/yeast_chart.php
        you will see that 84F (30C) is at the upper limits of most of the
        strains temp range. Turbos are engineered to withstand extremes in
        temp and alcohol levels, but keep an eye on it. If it keeps gettting
        warmer, you might want to get a gallon ziplock freezer bag filled with
        ice, put it in your fermenter and cool it down now and then.

        Vino es Veritas,
        Jim.



        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Miller" <bill1burp@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > My heat in the house is 72 degrees. I started my wash this morning
        with
        > turbo 24, 14 pounds of sugar and 6 gallons of water. I have been
        > keeping an eye on the temp of my wash bucket and it is rising. It is
        > now up to 86 degrees.
        >
        > Is this reaction suppose to happen? How high should I let the temp go
        > before I get worried?
        >
        > The best for last
        > BILL1BURP
        >
      • chevisn7
        I am also doing my first batch and was worried about the control of heat. I read an article about using a double insulated container where by the mash being
        Message 3 of 7 , Feb 4, 2008
          I am also doing my first batch and was worried about the control of
          heat. I read an article about using a double insulated container
          where by the mash being fermented is placed in a tub filled with
          water. This tub has a aquarium heater in it set to 75 degrees. This
          tub is set inside another tub again filled with water but in the
          second tub cool water is allowed to trickle in at a slow but steady
          rate and flow out of a hose placed near the top. The combination will
          in theory control both cold and hot temperatures. So far my mix has
          maintained a constant temperature of 75 degrees. Your opinion on this
          set up controlling the higher temps created by using a turbo 24 or 48
          yeast.
          Chuck
          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206"
          <jeffrey.burrows@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi BILL1BURP,
          > Your 78 F is 22 C. and is good and OK for fermenting wine.
          But
          > turbo is different and acts to the extremes. The very act and speed
          > of the conversion of the sugar turning to alcohol then turning to
          Co2
          > will have quite a few wanted and unwanted side effects. A bit like
          > when you rub your hands together in cold weather they warm up with
          > the friction which increases the blood flow to that area and makes
          > you warmer, that's a wanted side effect.
          > The same thing is happening to your yeast and sugar doing all
          > that converting, cavorting and reproducing. And that, as we all
          know
          > creates heat. Anyway moving swiftly along, the ambient room
          > temperature needs to be lowered. So move the lot into the cellar,
          > garage or somewhere cooler than the nice convenient place you have
          it
          > residing, this animal you are breeding is not wine.
          > It'll still heat up in the cooler atmosphere but the outside of
          your
          > fermenter should disperse the heat build up in the cooler air.
          > Now that should work OK for 25litres/5gallons but the bigger
          the
          > quantity the more heat you will have to loose exponentially. For
          > example 10 gallons you need to loose 4 times plus as much heat.
          > Let me try to give you a simple example how this heat thing
          can
          > grow out of all control:-
          > A paving slab 2ft. x 2ft. = 4sq. feet.
          > You would logically think to get twice the area you would double up
          > the paving slab side measurements to 4ft. x 4ft. = 16sq. feet. This
          > is 4 times the area you will end up with
          > Now we are dealing with heat and volume in three dimensions
          > which is more than the power of two and way beyond my
          capabilities.
          > But we have the people here on this forum, who do know how to
          > calculate this lot, so step up guys?
          > The upshot of all this is, keep your fermenting turbo washes
          in
          > manageable batches that you can distil in a reasonable time span
          > Geoff
          >
          >
          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Miller" <bill1burp@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > My heat in the house is 72 degrees. I started my wash this
          morning
          > with
          > > turbo 24, 14 pounds of sugar and 6 gallons of water. I have been
          > > keeping an eye on the temp of my wash bucket and it is rising. It
          > is
          > > now up to 86 degrees.
          > >
          > > Is this reaction suppose to happen? How high should I let the
          temp
          > go
          > > before I get worried?
          > >
          > > The best for last
          > > BILL1BURP
          > >
          >
        • burrows206
          Hi Chuck, It s a bit difficult to visualize the set up you are proposing. Your temperature has stabilized out at 75 degrees so the problem seems to have solved
          Message 4 of 7 , Feb 4, 2008
            Hi Chuck,
            It's a bit difficult to visualize the set up you are proposing.
            Your temperature has stabilized out at 75 degrees so the problem
            seems to have solved itself. The only other conditions that I can
            see the turbo heating up and being enough of a problem to the yeast
            and cause adverse side effects is, that you may be making a lot
            bigger batch than is normal for personal consumption, or you live in
            a hot climate and are at present in your cooler winter period and are
            worried about the summer heat.
            Either way you are dealing with a heat transfer problem. The ¼"
            copper coil condensers that just drop into the top of a reflux still
            column would cool your turbo but maybe too much. If this were the
            case, you would have to incorporate some kind of electric temperature
            control device for the cooling water in the coil or switching it on
            or off to maintain an ideal ferment temperature
            It's Starting to get complicated now and I don't do complicated
            if I can get away with it. Use the KISS principle and move it to a
            cooler place. Down under ground were the temperature is cooler and
            more stable
            geoff


            Hi Chuck,
            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chevisn7" <chevisn7@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > I am also doing my first batch and was worried about the control of
            > heat. I read an article about using a double insulated container
            > where by the mash being fermented is placed in a tub filled with
            > water. This tub has a aquarium heater in it set to 75 degrees. This
            > tub is set inside another tub again filled with water but in the
            > second tub cool water is allowed to trickle in at a slow but steady
            > rate and flow out of a hose placed near the top. The combination
            will
            > in theory control both cold and hot temperatures. So far my mix
            has
            > maintained a constant temperature of 75 degrees. Your opinion on
            this
            > set up controlling the higher temps created by using a turbo 24 or
            48
            > yeast.
            > Chuck
            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206"
            > <jeffrey.burrows@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi BILL1BURP,
            > > Your 78 F is 22 C. and is good and OK for fermenting wine.
            > But
            > > turbo is different and acts to the extremes. The very act and
            speed
            > > of the conversion of the sugar turning to alcohol then turning to
            > Co2
            > > will have quite a few wanted and unwanted side effects. A bit
            like
            > > when you rub your hands together in cold weather they warm up
            with
            > > the friction which increases the blood flow to that area and
            makes
            > > you warmer, that's a wanted side effect.
            > > The same thing is happening to your yeast and sugar doing
            all
            > > that converting, cavorting and reproducing. And that, as we all
            > know
            > > creates heat. Anyway moving swiftly along, the ambient room
            > > temperature needs to be lowered. So move the lot into the cellar,
            > > garage or somewhere cooler than the nice convenient place you
            have
            > it
            > > residing, this animal you are breeding is not wine.
            > > It'll still heat up in the cooler atmosphere but the outside of
            > your
            > > fermenter should disperse the heat build up in the cooler air.
            > > Now that should work OK for 25litres/5gallons but the bigger
            > the
            > > quantity the more heat you will have to loose exponentially. For
            > > example 10 gallons you need to loose 4 times plus as much heat.
            > > Let me try to give you a simple example how this heat thing
            > can
            > > grow out of all control:-
            > > A paving slab 2ft. x 2ft. = 4sq. feet.
            > > You would logically think to get twice the area you would double
            up
            > > the paving slab side measurements to 4ft. x 4ft. = 16sq. feet.
            This
            > > is 4 times the area you will end up with
            > > Now we are dealing with heat and volume in three dimensions
            > > which is more than the power of two and way beyond my
            > capabilities.
            > > But we have the people here on this forum, who do know how to
            > > calculate this lot, so step up guys?
            > > The upshot of all this is, keep your fermenting turbo washes
            > in
            > > manageable batches that you can distil in a reasonable time span
            > > Geoff
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Miller" <bill1burp@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > My heat in the house is 72 degrees. I started my wash this
            > morning
            > > with
            > > > turbo 24, 14 pounds of sugar and 6 gallons of water. I have
            been
            > > > keeping an eye on the temp of my wash bucket and it is rising.
            It
            > > is
            > > > now up to 86 degrees.
            > > >
            > > > Is this reaction suppose to happen? How high should I let the
            > temp
            > > go
            > > > before I get worried?
            > > >
            > > > The best for last
            > > > BILL1BURP
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • chevisn7
            Geoff;Thanks for the reply. My rig is basicially three buckets. One placed inside the other and each one a little larger than the other. The outer two are
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 5, 2008
              Geoff;Thanks for the reply. My rig is basicially three buckets. One
              placed inside the other and each one a little larger than the other.
              The outer two are filled with water. The inside bucket is the mash.
              The second bucket has a heater to heat the water surrounding the mash
              in case it gets cold. The third is a cooler. It has circulating cool
              water to cool the water in the second bucket in case it gets to warm
              from the heat of the mash. The heater in the second bucket controls
              the heat and temp of the mash bucket. So far it seems to work pretty
              good. The batch I am currently making is 6 gallons and the heat seems
              to be under control. I am one of the lucky ones here in Florida as I
              have a basement. Thats a story in itself. The temp in the basement is
              pretty steady around 75 degrees most of the year even when it is
              Toasty outside. Its in the winter where we have problems. The daily
              temps can change as much as 40 degrees. Right now it goes from the
              mid 40s at night to around 78 during the day. Ill give my rig a try
              over the next few months and if successful at controling the heat
              generated by different types of yeasts Ill let everyone know. Your
              suggestion on using the cooling coil out of my condenser has got me
              pondering a few ideas. But I still have to deal with the cold at
              night. Ill let you know if I come up with anything.
              Chuck
              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206"
              <jeffrey.burrows@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Chuck,
              > It's a bit difficult to visualize the set up you are
              proposing.
              > Your temperature has stabilized out at 75 degrees so the problem
              > seems to have solved itself. The only other conditions that I can
              > see the turbo heating up and being enough of a problem to the yeast
              > and cause adverse side effects is, that you may be making a lot
              > bigger batch than is normal for personal consumption, or you live
              in
              > a hot climate and are at present in your cooler winter period and
              are
              > worried about the summer heat.
              > Either way you are dealing with a heat transfer problem. The
              ¼"
              > copper coil condensers that just drop into the top of a reflux
              still
              > column would cool your turbo but maybe too much. If this were the
              > case, you would have to incorporate some kind of electric
              temperature
              > control device for the cooling water in the coil or switching it on
              > or off to maintain an ideal ferment temperature
              > It's Starting to get complicated now and I don't do
              complicated
              > if I can get away with it. Use the KISS principle and move it to a
              > cooler place. Down under ground were the temperature is cooler
              and
              > more stable
              > geoff
              >
              >
              > Hi Chuck,
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "chevisn7" <chevisn7@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > I am also doing my first batch and was worried about the control
              of
              > > heat. I read an article about using a double insulated container
              > > where by the mash being fermented is placed in a tub filled with
              > > water. This tub has a aquarium heater in it set to 75 degrees.
              This
              > > tub is set inside another tub again filled with water but in the
              > > second tub cool water is allowed to trickle in at a slow but
              steady
              > > rate and flow out of a hose placed near the top. The combination
              > will
              > > in theory control both cold and hot temperatures. So far my mix
              > has
              > > maintained a constant temperature of 75 degrees. Your opinion on
              > this
              > > set up controlling the higher temps created by using a turbo 24
              or
              > 48
              > > yeast.
              > > Chuck
              > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "burrows206"
              > > <jeffrey.burrows@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi BILL1BURP,
              > > > Your 78 F is 22 C. and is good and OK for fermenting
              wine.
              > > But
              > > > turbo is different and acts to the extremes. The very act and
              > speed
              > > > of the conversion of the sugar turning to alcohol then turning
              to
              > > Co2
              > > > will have quite a few wanted and unwanted side effects. A bit
              > like
              > > > when you rub your hands together in cold weather they warm up
              > with
              > > > the friction which increases the blood flow to that area and
              > makes
              > > > you warmer, that's a wanted side effect.
              > > > The same thing is happening to your yeast and sugar doing
              > all
              > > > that converting, cavorting and reproducing. And that, as we
              all
              > > know
              > > > creates heat. Anyway moving swiftly along, the ambient room
              > > > temperature needs to be lowered. So move the lot into the
              cellar,
              > > > garage or somewhere cooler than the nice convenient place you
              > have
              > > it
              > > > residing, this animal you are breeding is not wine.
              > > > It'll still heat up in the cooler atmosphere but the outside of
              > > your
              > > > fermenter should disperse the heat build up in the cooler air.
              > > > Now that should work OK for 25litres/5gallons but the
              bigger
              > > the
              > > > quantity the more heat you will have to loose exponentially.
              For
              > > > example 10 gallons you need to loose 4 times plus as much
              heat.
              > > > Let me try to give you a simple example how this heat
              thing
              > > can
              > > > grow out of all control:-
              > > > A paving slab 2ft. x 2ft. = 4sq. feet.
              > > > You would logically think to get twice the area you would
              double
              > up
              > > > the paving slab side measurements to 4ft. x 4ft. = 16sq. feet.
              > This
              > > > is 4 times the area you will end up with
              > > > Now we are dealing with heat and volume in three
              dimensions
              > > > which is more than the power of two and way beyond my
              > > capabilities.
              > > > But we have the people here on this forum, who do know how to
              > > > calculate this lot, so step up guys?
              > > > The upshot of all this is, keep your fermenting turbo
              washes
              > > in
              > > > manageable batches that you can distil in a reasonable time span
              > > > Geoff
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Miller"
              <bill1burp@>
              > > > wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > My heat in the house is 72 degrees. I started my wash this
              > > morning
              > > > with
              > > > > turbo 24, 14 pounds of sugar and 6 gallons of water. I have
              > been
              > > > > keeping an eye on the temp of my wash bucket and it is
              rising.
              > It
              > > > is
              > > > > now up to 86 degrees.
              > > > >
              > > > > Is this reaction suppose to happen? How high should I let the
              > > temp
              > > > go
              > > > > before I get worried?
              > > > >
              > > > > The best for last
              > > > > BILL1BURP
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
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