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Who is the spokesperson in the US

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  • rye_junkie
    I have read in a couple of books that there is a small movement in the US to make this hobby legal But nothing with a name attached to it. Is anyone here aware
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 8, 2007
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      I have read in a couple of books that there is a small movement in the
      US to make this hobby legal But nothing with a name attached to it.
      Is anyone here aware of such a group? Do they have a web sight? For
      whatever reason I have been bothered by this lately and thought I
      would ask. I am thinking it is probably hard to argue with the
      government to make something legal with out tipping your hand that you
      are participating in the illegal function.
      Maybe this has become sort of an Al Capone law. A, since we cant get
      you on this offense we will bust you on this lesser one just to get
      you off the street. As we have shown in a couple of other posts
      yesterday there are a lot of laws kept on the books that really have
      no place anymore. About a year ago, I was talking with a local
      detective here about antiquated laws and he pretty much confirmed this
      thought. He said that in his 15 year career he had been able to make
      life miserable for people he knew were dealing drugs or involved in
      robberies and such but could not get the proof he needed to make an
      arrest by enforcing laws that were stupid and outdated, But still on
      the books. Apparently the study and knowledge of these laws is a very
      important to some specialized teams and task forces.

      Mason
    • curiousswinger2003
      Being a limey, I m afraid I can t help you directly, although I can sympathise with your dilemma. In the UK, there s a growing band of hobbyists (mainly thanks
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 8, 2007
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        Being a limey, I'm afraid I can't help you directly, although I can
        sympathise with your dilemma.

        In the UK, there's a growing band of hobbyists (mainly thanks to the
        SmartStill product - it's how I started !). However, although it is
        illegal in the UK (a customs/revenue offence, rather than one for the
        police), it's not something that's heavily policed. As far as I am
        aware it's a 100GBP (c. $200)fine, plus paying the duty on your
        (estimated !!!) output. That said, I have never, ever heard of
        anybody being charged with home-distilling. And as far as I am aware,
        there's no real underground moonshine operations in the UK. If there
        are, they've not been caught.

        Speaking with my home-brew/distilling supplier last week, it appears
        that HMRC (Her Majesties Revenue and Customs) are aware there is a
        growing home-distilling market, and are unsure how best to "deal with
        it". They have a few options :

        1) Ignore. Nothing changes
        2) Legalise non-profit making distillation
        3) same as (2), but tax it
        4) Make it more illegal, with jail time, confiscation etc etc

        The biggest question, is how much money do our governments stand to
        loose ? If they can be convinced that even if distillation were
        legal, not many people would bother, they *might* go for it.

        Can't speak for US affairs, but I can tell you that if you compare
        the number of home-brew shops with the number of "hydroponic
        supplies" shops, then dope-growers outnumber home-brewers about 10:1.
        Which is a *good* statistic, as it supports the POV that home-
        distillers will not lose the treasury billions in lost tax.

        It's been too long since I was state-side ... at the moment a half-
        decent whisky (scotch) will set you back c. $25 for 70cl.

        Anyway, to get back on topic, I'm not aware of any UK groups who are
        pressing for distilling to be made legal. I don't think there's any
        fear about being caught, it's just that because people haven't been
        caught, there's no real downside to the status quo. In fact, that'll
        probably be the biggest reason to go with (1) above. In practice,
        small discreet distillation will be "tolerated", but remain illegal
        in order to be able to have some "control" over it if things look
        different in a few years.

        Sorry for replying to a US-centric question, but I hope putting all
        this here will help anyone else who signs up to this group.
      • Derek Hamlet
        From Canada - ditto what our Pommy friend says. If it ever became a hot topic with proposed changes to make hobby distilling legal you can bet the big dislling
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 8, 2007
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          From Canada - ditto what our Pommy friend says.
          If it ever became a hot topic with proposed changes to make hobby
          distilling legal you can bet the big dislling lobby would have lots
          to say. Just a sniff of the idea of competition would bring the fat
          cats of the distilling industry out in droves.
          On a historical note, when I was a boy back in the 40's, of the last
          century of the previous millenium, homebrewing and homewinemaking was illegal.
          At 08:22 AM 11/8/2007, you wrote:

          >Being a limey, I'm afraid I can't help you directly, although I can
          >sympathise with your dilemma.
          >
          >In the UK, there's a growing band of hobbyists (mainly thanks to the
          >SmartStill product - it's how I started !).

          Derek Hamlet
          "Cleverly disguised as responsible senior citizen"
        • scannerfan
          They might have something to say, but we can make our own beer, (and the Beer industry had something to say), and we can make our own wine, (and the wine
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 8, 2007
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            They might have something to say, but we can make our own beer, (and the
            Beer industry had something to say), and we can make our own wine, (and the
            wine industry had something to say) there is no difference ask to have it
            made legal just as the beer people did and just wine people did, ask and you
            shall receive don't whine about it do something about it.

            Sam
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Derek Hamlet" <derekhamlet@...>
            To: <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 4:24 PM
            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Who is the spokesperson in the US


            > From Canada - ditto what our Pommy friend says.
            > If it ever became a hot topic with proposed changes to make hobby
            > distilling legal you can bet the big dislling lobby would have lots
            > to say. Just a sniff of the idea of competition would bring the fat
            > cats of the distilling industry out in droves.
            > On a historical note, when I was a boy back in the 40's, of the last
            > century of the previous millenium, homebrewing and homewinemaking was
            > illegal.
            > At 08:22 AM 11/8/2007, you wrote:
            >
            >>Being a limey, I'm afraid I can't help you directly, although I can
            >>sympathise with your dilemma.
            >>
            >>In the UK, there's a growing band of hobbyists (mainly thanks to the
            >>SmartStill product - it's how I started !).
            >
            > Derek Hamlet
            > "Cleverly disguised as responsible senior citizen"
            >
            >
            >
            > New Distillers group archives are at http://archive.nnytech.net/
            > FAQ and other information available at http://homedistiller.org
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________________________________________________________
            > Before digital, there was mechanical. View and purchase fascinating
            > mechanical
            > antique pocket watches and vintage wrist watches. Visit Bogoff Antiques
            > today.
            > http://lavabit.com/apps/director?ad=3
            > ________________________________________________________________________________
          • Larry
            ... Actually, it was illegal in the USA until relatively recently (lot more recent than the 40 s, anyway). There was some sort of rollercoaster thing going on,
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 8, 2007
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              At 03:24 PM 11/08/2007, you wrote:
              On a historical note, when I was a boy back in the 40's, of the last
              century of the previous millenium, homebrewing and homewinemaking was illegal.

              Actually, it was illegal in the USA until relatively recently (lot more recent than the 40's, anyway).

              There was some sort of rollercoaster thing going on, and distilling for personal consumption, which was a federal misdemeanor, became legal, along with making beer and wine for personal use. 

              Then they flipped around and made distilling a federal felony, while leaving beer and wine alone.  Go Figger!

            • mstehelin
              I think that the rational for not making distilling legal is that there will be massive amounts of revenue lost, because everyone will make their own spirits.
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 9, 2007
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                I think that the rational for not making distilling legal is that
                there will be massive amounts of revenue lost, because everyone will
                make their own spirits. This is a red herring. The reality is that not
                everyone WANTS to distill. Most people's days are stretched for time
                already never mind farting around with tubes, heat controllers and
                mashes. It takes a special type who has the time, the intelligence,
                the curiosity and the drive to get into distilling. Most other people
                would rather buy a bottle and carry on with their lives.
                Cheers
                M.
                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "scannerfan" <scannerfan@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > They might have something to say, but we can make our own beer, (and
                the
                > Beer industry had something to say), and we can make our own wine,
                (and the
                > wine industry had something to say) there is no difference ask to
                have it
                > made legal just as the beer people did and just wine people did, ask
                and you
                > shall receive don't whine about it do something about it.
                >
                > Sam
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Derek Hamlet" <derekhamlet@...>
                > To: <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 4:24 PM
                > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Who is the spokesperson in the US
                >
                >
                > > From Canada - ditto what our Pommy friend says.
                > > If it ever became a hot topic with proposed changes to make hobby
                > > distilling legal you can bet the big dislling lobby would have lots
                > > to say. Just a sniff of the idea of competition would bring the fat
                > > cats of the distilling industry out in droves.
                > > On a historical note, when I was a boy back in the 40's, of the last
                > > century of the previous millenium, homebrewing and homewinemaking was
                > > illegal.
                > > At 08:22 AM 11/8/2007, you wrote:
                > >
                > >>Being a limey, I'm afraid I can't help you directly, although I can
                > >>sympathise with your dilemma.
                > >>
                > >>In the UK, there's a growing band of hobbyists (mainly thanks to the
                > >>SmartStill product - it's how I started !).
                > >
                > > Derek Hamlet
                > > "Cleverly disguised as responsible senior citizen"
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > New Distillers group archives are at http://archive.nnytech.net/
                > > FAQ and other information available at http://homedistiller.org
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                ________________________________________________________________________________
                > > Before digital, there was mechanical. View and purchase fascinating
                > > mechanical
                > > antique pocket watches and vintage wrist watches. Visit Bogoff
                Antiques
                > > today.
                > > http://lavabit.com/apps/director?ad=3
                > >
                ________________________________________________________________________________
                >
              • Harry
                ... will ... not ... The reality is...they don t want every Tom, Dick & Harry (who me?) :) learning to distil. Distilling is a separation & purification
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 9, 2007
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                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mstehelin" <mstehelin@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I think that the rational for not making distilling legal is that
                  > there will be massive amounts of revenue lost, because everyone
                  will
                  > make their own spirits. This is a red herring. The reality is that
                  not
                  > everyone WANTS to distill.



                  The reality is...they don't want every Tom, Dick & Harry (who
                  me?) :)
                  learning to distil.
                  Distilling is a separation & purification process, not a creation
                  process.
                  Most of the world's pharmaceuticals are made with this step
                  somewhere in the process.
                  As are any number of other things (biological weapons for instance).
                  In a Post-9-11 world, this becomes increasingly concerning.

                  Of course you still need to know what-all to do with it and what to
                  put in the process before you can run amok. Most of us will never
                  have access to such sensitive information. But there's always a
                  loose nut holding a wheel somewhere.

                  Having said all that, it's farcical to frown on or persecute public
                  knowledge of distilling, while every Secondary & Tertiary education
                  establishment teaches distilling in science classes. Ask your kids,
                  most of them could show you how to or tell you how to distil (if
                  they paid attention in school).


                  Slainte!
                  regards Harry
                • jhauser88@yahoo.com
                  Nicely put I can t agrrr more with u. Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T ... From: mstehelin Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 17:04:18
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 9, 2007
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                    Nicely put I can't agrrr more with u.
                    Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: "mstehelin" <mstehelin@...>

                    Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 17:04:18
                    To:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Who is the spokesperson in the US


                    I think that the rational for not making distilling legal is that
                    there will be massive amounts of revenue lost, because everyone will
                    make their own spirits. This is a red herring. The reality is that not
                    everyone WANTS to distill.
                  • sonum norbu
                    100% agreement M. blanik ... Most of the troubles of the world are caused by human beings . (Shakyamuni Buddha) SOARING, SAILING AND SKYDIVING web page
                    Message 9 of 16 , Nov 9, 2007
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                      100% agreement M.

                      blanik


                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: mstehelin <mstehelin@...>
                      > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Who is the spokesperson in the US
                      > Date: Fri, 09 Nov:04:18 -0000
                      >
                      >
                      > I think that the rational for not making distilling legal is that
                      > there will be massive amounts of revenue lost, because everyone will
                      > make their own spirits. This is a red herring. The reality is that not
                      > everyone WANTS to distill. Most people's days are stretched for time
                      > already never mind farting around with tubes, heat controllers and
                      > mashes. It takes a special type who has the time, the intelligence,
                      > the curiosity and the drive to get into distilling. Most other people
                      > would rather buy a bottle and carry on with their lives.
                      > Cheers
                      > M.
                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "scannerfan" <scannerfan@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > They might have something to say, but we can make our own beer, (and
                      > the
                      > > Beer industry had something to say), and we can make our own wine,
                      > (and the
                      > > wine industry had something to say) there is no difference ask to
                      > have it
                      > > made legal just as the beer people did and just wine people did, ask
                      > and you
                      > > shall receive don't whine about it do something about it.
                      > >
                      > > Sam
                      > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Hamlet" <derekhamlet@...>
                      > > To: <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 4:24 PM
                      > > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Who is the spokesperson in the US
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > From Canada - ditto what our Pommy friend says.
                      > > > If it ever became a hot topic with proposed changes to make hobby
                      > > > distilling legal you can bet the big dislling lobby would have lots
                      > > > to say. Just a sniff of the idea of competition would bring the fat
                      > > > cats of the distilling industry out in droves.
                      > > > On a historical note, when I was a boy back in the 40's, of the last
                      > > > century of the previous millenium, homebrewing and
                      > > homewinemaking was > illegal.
                      > > > At 08:22 AM 11/8/2007, you wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >>Being a limey, I'm afraid I can't help you directly, although I can
                      > > >>sympathise with your dilemma.
                      > > >>
                      > > >>In the UK, there's a growing band of hobbyists (mainly thanks to the
                      > > >>SmartStill product - it's how I started !).
                      > > >
                      > > > Derek Hamlet
                      > > > "Cleverly disguised as responsible senior citizen"
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > New Distillers group archives are at http://archive.nnytech.net/
                      > > > FAQ and other information available at http://homedistiller.org
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > ________________________________________________________________________________
                      > > > Before digital, there was mechanical. View and purchase
                      > > fascinating > mechanical
                      > > > antique pocket watches and vintage wrist watches. Visit Bogoff
                      > Antiques
                      > > > today.
                      > > > http://lavabit.com/apps/director?ad=3
                      > > >
                      > ________________________________________________________________________________
                      > >

                      >



                      "Most of the troubles of the world are caused by human beings". (Shakyamuni Buddha)

                      SOARING, SAILING AND SKYDIVING web page
                      http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/cloudbase/



                      --
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                      Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way:
                      Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera.com

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                    • sonum norbu
                      Hmmmm a good point, but shiners have been around for many years before the manipulation of the public by politicians for much longer than the WTC/pentagon
                      Message 10 of 16 , Nov 9, 2007
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                        Hmmmm a good point, but shiners have been around for many years before the manipulation of the public by politicians for much longer than the WTC/pentagon attacks. Taxation/excise must surely come into the equation somewhere.


                        blanik




                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Harry <gnikomson2000@...>
                        > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Who is the spokesperson in the US
                        > Date: Fri, 09 Nov:37:47 -0000
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mstehelin" <mstehelin@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I think that the rational for not making distilling legal is that
                        > > there will be massive amounts of revenue lost, because everyone
                        > will
                        > > make their own spirits. This is a red herring. The reality is that
                        > not
                        > > everyone WANTS to distill.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The reality is...they don't want every Tom, Dick & Harry (who
                        > me?) :)
                        > learning to distil.
                        > Distilling is a separation & purification process, not a creation
                        > process.
                        > Most of the world's pharmaceuticals are made with this step
                        > somewhere in the process.
                        > As are any number of other things (biological weapons for instance).
                        > In a Post-9-11 world, this becomes increasingly concerning.
                        >
                        > Of course you still need to know what-all to do with it and what to
                        > put in the process before you can run amok. Most of us will never
                        > have access to such sensitive information. But there's always a
                        > loose nut holding a wheel somewhere.
                        >
                        > Having said all that, it's farcical to frown on or persecute public
                        > knowledge of distilling, while every Secondary & Tertiary education
                        > establishment teaches distilling in science classes. Ask your kids,
                        > most of them could show you how to or tell you how to distil (if
                        > they paid attention in school).
                        >
                        >
                        > Slainte!
                        > regards Harry

                        >



                        "Most of the troubles of the world are caused by human beings". (Shakyamuni Buddha)

                        SOARING, SAILING AND SKYDIVING web page
                        http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/cloudbase/



                        --
                        _______________________________________________
                        Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way:
                        Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera.com

                        Powered by Outblaze
                      • Larry
                        ... Yeah, they ve been around for many years before the 911 attacks, but not for so many years before people wanting to tax them, in most places. Wherever
                        Message 11 of 16 , Nov 9, 2007
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                          At 05:00 PM 11/09/2007, you wrote:

                          >Hmmmm a good point, but shiners have been around for many years before the
                          >manipulation of the public by politicians for much longer than the
                          >WTC/pentagon attacks. Taxation/excise must surely come into the equation
                          >somewhere.

                          Yeah, they've been around for many years before the 911 attacks, but not
                          for so many years before people wanting to tax them, in most places.

                          Wherever whiskey production has ever begun, the tax man hasn't been far
                          behind, for hundreds of years.

                          And the easiest way to be sure you get ALL of your tax paid is to limit the
                          number of people required to pay it.

                          It's easier to get 100 million a year out of ten corporations paying 10 mil
                          each, than it is to get 100 million out of 1000 people paying one a hundred
                          thousand each each.

                          In every country, it's all about Taxes... and with Corporate Profits
                          standing behind them shouting encouragement.
                        • Mel Stull
                          But some will and if legal some would make poison and sell it ... From: jhauser88@yahoo.com Date: 11/09/07 18:58:39 To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com Subject:
                          Message 12 of 16 , Nov 9, 2007
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                            But some will and if legal some would make poison and sell it
                             
                             
                            -------Original Message-------
                             
                            Date: 11/09/07 18:58:39
                            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: Who is the spokesperson in the US
                             
                            Nicely put I can't agrrr more with u.
                            Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
                             
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: "mstehelin" <mstehelin@...>
                             
                            Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 17:04:18
                            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Who is the spokesperson in the US
                             
                             
                            I think that the rational for not making distilling legal is that
                              there will be massive amounts of revenue lost, because everyone will
                              make their own spirits. This is a red herring. The reality is that not
                              everyone WANTS to distill.
                             
                              New Distillers group archives are at http://archive.nnytech.net/
                              FAQ and other information available at http://homedistiller.org
                             
                             
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                          • Harry
                            ... before the manipulation of the public by politicians for much longer than the WTC/pentagon attacks. Taxation/excise must surely come into the equation
                            Message 13 of 16 , Nov 9, 2007
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                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "sonum norbu" <blanik@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Hmmmm a good point, but shiners have been around for many years
                              before the manipulation of the public by politicians for much longer
                              than the WTC/pentagon attacks. Taxation/excise must surely come
                              into the equation somewhere.
                              >
                              >
                              > blanik

                              There's no doubt that tax plays a part. But New Zealand has been
                              legal (distilling) for 10 years and they aren't suffering lost
                              revenue or breakdown of society. Quite the contrary.

                              It's all about CONTROL.
                              Taxation and penalties is just another control weapon. Al Capone
                              found that out when they couldn't get him any other way.

                              The old shiners didn't have the internet for rapid dissemination of
                              info. We do. The controlling authorities (Govt's, Law enforcement
                              etc.) really blew it. They ignored the rise of the personal
                              computer and internet communication as just another fad. They
                              followed the flawed statement by Tom Watson...

                              "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." – Thomas
                              Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943

                              Computers proved to be very hard to wiretap and still are (unlike
                              telephones).
                              Control was lost, and they've been trying ever since to regain it.

                              When authorities lose control, they get very antzy.

                              Slainte!
                              regards Harry
                            • Just Murray
                              bingo. my state makes hella taxes of booze (WA) they cant control production of cannabis so it s hard to tax, same thing i tghihnk. `KM I ve failed over and
                              Message 14 of 16 , Nov 9, 2007
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                                bingo.
                                my state makes hella taxes of booze (WA)
                                they cant control production of cannabis so it's hard to tax, same thing i tghihnk.
                                `KM

                                I've failed over and over and over again in my life and that is why I succeed.

                                         --- Michael Jordan



                                On Nov 9, 2007, at 4:25 PM, Harry wrote:

                                It's all about CONTROL.
                                Taxation and penalties is just another control weapon.

                              • sonum norbu
                                Aww yairrrs, it is all about control. Absolutely no doubt at all. blanik ... Most of the troubles of the world are caused by human beings . (Shakyamuni
                                Message 15 of 16 , Nov 9, 2007
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                                  Aww yairrrs, it is all about control. Absolutely no doubt at all.

                                  blanik


                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Harry <gnikomson2000@...>
                                  > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: Who is the spokesperson in the US
                                  > Date: Sat, 10 Nov:25:14 -0000
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "sonum norbu" <blanik@...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hmmmm a good point, but shiners have been around for many years
                                  > before the manipulation of the public by politicians for much longer
                                  > than the WTC/pentagon attacks. Taxation/excise must surely come
                                  > into the equation somewhere.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > blanik
                                  >
                                  > There's no doubt that tax plays a part. But New Zealand has been
                                  > legal (distilling) for 10 years and they aren't suffering lost
                                  > revenue or breakdown of society. Quite the contrary.
                                  >
                                  > It's all about CONTROL.
                                  > Taxation and penalties is just another control weapon. Al Capone
                                  > found that out when they couldn't get him any other way.
                                  >
                                  > The old shiners didn't have the internet for rapid dissemination of
                                  > info. We do. The controlling authorities (Govt's, Law enforcement
                                  > etc.) really blew it. They ignored the rise of the personal
                                  > computer and internet communication as just another fad. They
                                  > followed the flawed statement by Tom Watson...
                                  >
                                  > "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." – Thomas
                                  > Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943
                                  >
                                  > Computers proved to be very hard to wiretap and still are (unlike
                                  > telephones).
                                  > Control was lost, and they've been trying ever since to regain it.
                                  >
                                  > When authorities lose control, they get very antzy.
                                  >
                                  > Slainte!
                                  > regards Harry

                                  >



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                                • David
                                  The government revenue is only half the picture. In my state when some wineries wanted to start distilling and sell samples on sight it was the huge lobbying
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Nov 9, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    The government revenue is only half the picture. In my state when
                                    some wineries wanted to start distilling and sell samples on sight it
                                    was the huge lobbying effort from the established distributers that
                                    killed the bill. Although in a neighboring state they did not fight
                                    it and it and it passed and the distributers there have noticed
                                    nothing. The ones in our state have stated in public forums that they
                                    don't want to open up a small hole now for big potential losses later.

                                    http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=530111

                                    For a newspaper summary.

                                    David


                                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "sonum norbu" <blanik@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hmmmm a good point, but shiners have been around for many years
                                    > before the manipulation of the public by politicians for much
                                    longer
                                    > than the WTC/pentagon attacks. Taxation/excise must surely come
                                    > into the equation somewhere.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > blanik
                                    >
                                    > There's no doubt that tax plays a part. But New Zealand has been
                                    > legal (distilling) for 10 years and they aren't suffering lost
                                    > revenue or breakdown of society. Quite the contrary.
                                    >
                                    > It's all about CONTROL.
                                    > Taxation and penalties is just another control weapon. Al Capone
                                    > found that out when they couldn't get him any other way.
                                    >
                                    > The old shiners didn't have the internet for rapid dissemination of
                                    > info. We do. The controlling authorities (Govt's, Law enforcement
                                    > etc.) really blew it. They ignored the rise of the personal
                                    > computer and internet communication as just another fad. They
                                    > followed the flawed statement by Tom Watson...
                                    >
                                    > "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." –
                                    Thomas
                                    > Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943
                                    >
                                    > Computers proved to be very hard to wiretap and still are (unlike
                                    > telephones).
                                    > Control was lost, and they've been trying ever since to regain it.
                                    >
                                    > When authorities lose control, they get very antzy.
                                    >
                                    > Slainte!
                                    > regards Harry
                                    >
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