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Re: Home made turbo recipe - new to group

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  • Harry
    ... with ... ferment ... over. ... time ... don t ... taste ... so ... 1. Sugar: No commercial outfit uses refined white sugar as substrate. It doesn t fit
    Message 1 of 49 , Nov 1, 2007
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      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "David Dolata" <david@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > EVERY cost matters!
      > Opening a distillery is a catch 22, one cannot legally admit to
      > experimenting without going full blown with it. Production at some
      > level must start 60 days after getting the permit. The way I
      > understand it you cannot just get the permit and do R&D for years,
      > they want that tax money from sales. The only product to start
      with
      > is Vodka for obvious reasons if one wants imediate cash flow.
      >
      > Some of my tests are changing PH from 6.6 to 3.5 during the
      ferment
      > so right now I am starting out on the high side aiming for 6 or
      over.
      > Good bad or indifferent??
      >
      > The biggest cost is the white sugar. Second biggest expense is
      time
      > which equates to volume of must=overhead. Then energy, then labor.
      >
      > My test batches are 7 gal each. R&D will use 275 gal totes. I
      don't
      > know about produciton fermentation tanks but I know shallow is
      > supposed to be better.
      >
      > Using turbo yeasts would mean $200 per batch for the yeast and
      > nutrients which is too much for that portion. I'm sure I can do at
      > least as good with some effort. Besides turbo yeasts sure don't
      taste
      > good, enough said about the taste. I know with some effort I can
      > product a fast must with good distiling characteristics. ie: not
      so
      > many of the other alcohols, ets. making for a more economical
      > distillation.
      >
      > Thanks again for your input.
      > David


      1. Sugar:
      No commercial outfit uses refined white sugar as substrate. It
      doesn't fit the TTB or other world bodies' rules. If you make a
      product from white sugar, you can't legally call it "Vodka". It
      is "White Spirit". Even most of the white spirits have to be grain
      based by law, hence the industry name "GNS", meaning Grain Neutral
      Spirit.

      If you really 'must' use sugar as the substrate (assuming it passes
      approval of the authorities you're dealing with) then use "Raw
      Sugar". This sticky brown unrefined & unbleached product still
      contains a fair amount of molasses, thus it has most of the
      nutrients your yeast needs. All you need do is add boiled yeast
      sludge from a previous fermentation to provide lipids & other
      nutrients. That's efficient recycling at its best. It's also cost
      effective, as you aren't spending money on extra outside nutrients
      or on EPA requirements to sanitize your distillery effluent before
      putting it into the environment (you do know about that, don't you?).

      2. Yeast:
      Propagate your own from a culture for each fermentation. Very cheap
      to do and relatively easy. There's plenty of info out there on
      doing this - I recommend you start by reading the excellent online
      info by John Palmer "How To Brew". It deals with all aspects of
      making beer including all grain worts, yeast harvesting &
      propagation (Yeast Ranching). Much of what he's written is very
      relevant to the distilling industry.
      Homepage here - http://www.howtobrew.com/
      Yeast propagation & harvesting here -
      http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-8.html

      Other good sources: - My Library -
      http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Listings2.htm#Books%
      20Listings

      Internet - Yeast Propagation -
      www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/MB_Raines_Guide_to_Yeast_Culturing.php

      3. Bakers yeast:
      Using bakers yeast is a proven and acceptable method in distilling.
      Used correctly, it can produce very fast fermentations (48-72 hrs),
      thus reducing the chance of bacterial infections. It was used
      commercially for centuries to make some of the world's most famous
      Scotch Whisky. As a baker with 30+ year's experience in a previous
      profession, I've seen all sides of using bakers yeast. Many of the
      so-called specialty brewing & distilling yeast strains used
      commercially today were first discovered as mutations of bakers
      yeast (Saccharomycetes Cerevisiae). Interestingly enough, evolution
      has come full circle as it was wild yeasts used in brewing &
      winemaking that were subsequently harvested after brewing was
      complete to produce ancient breads & other baked products. Life's
      like that.

      Turbos:
      Wouldn't use 'em, unless I was desperate. But then I'm not that
      desperate. I have trialled one for a commercial outfit which was
      very good, but relatively expensive, and difficult to get on a
      regular basis. Plus it didn't really perform much different to what
      my home-ranched or bakers yeast does. Most of the flavour (or lack
      of) in distilled products comes from a combination of distilling
      technique and aging. Yeast doesn't provide much more than the raw
      ethanol to work with. Some specialty yeasts make particular
      flavours in worts, but much of it is lost again once it is distilled.


      Slainte!
      regards Harry
    • David
      Yes, you can substitute KOH, potassium hydroxide, (potash lye)(NOT regular sodium lye) which should be locally available as generic brand liquid drain cleaner.
      Message 49 of 49 , Dec 3, 2007
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        Yes, you can substitute KOH, potassium hydroxide, (potash lye)(NOT
        regular sodium lye) which should be locally available as generic
        brand liquid drain cleaner. Please be careful with this stuff. I
        don't know the exact proportions, (a teaspoon per 15L?? depending on
        strength) but it will be similar, probably less??? Check the
        ingredients, there should be no sodium hydroxide and it should be
        nearly clear. For experimenting only, use lab grade KOH if you are
        going to drink it. Remember to adjust the final Ph to about 6.0 with
        citric acid before pitching the yeast. [This is a VERY strong base
        and will soapify your skin on contact.] I have also used potassium
        vitamin supplements but not exclusively and the amount required is so
        great that it won't be inexpensive (they usually come in 99mg pills)
        for large batches. Yeast needs for K are on the order of 4500mg per
        15 liter, that's a lot and is equivalent of one cup normal molasses
        or 1/2 half cup blackstrap molasses. Molasses is loaded with K.

        I must warn you that the acid should be added to the sugar solution
        first and then the potassium. (especially if you already added the
        DAP first by mistake). You can make small adjustments either way when
        the PH is closer to 6PH. Kind of a catch 22 I know.

        I'm sure I will be chastised for suggesting drain cleaner. But it is
        a convenient economical source of K for testing purposes only cause
        we don't know what else may be in it.

        David

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, RAY HARRISON <rahar2005@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi David,
        >
        > I have downloaded your recipe and ready to give it a go. I have
        all the ingredients apart from the potassium carbonate-seems that no
        one seems to stock this locally.
        > Does it go by any other name (i,e. a commercial or generic name)
        > If I cant find it do you think I could subsitute something else?
        > If so what would you recommend?
        >
        > Cheers
        >
        > Ray H
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > David <david@...> wrote:
        > Thank you to everyone!
        >
        > If you followed this thread last month, here are the results. I
        have
        > posted my final recipe in the files section here...
        >
        > files
        > All Distillers Recipes
        > Reflux Still Recipes
        > Wash Recipes
        > Sugar wash's
        > david
        > turbo.txt
        >
        > I tried everything I could scrounge up on the web finding every
        last
        > amino acid and trace mineral and 'secrets' only to come full circle
        > to a very basic formula. I would very much like anyone with the
        > ability to try it and report back with their individual results. My
        > original goal was a clean good tasting wash that would produce the
        > least amount of byproducts possible for a neutral spirit wash, and
        to
        > do it at least as fast as commercial turbo's. IMHO I have achieved
        > these goals.
        >
        > Thanks again, David
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
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