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Re: USA legal situation

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  • rhodeseng
    My lawnmower prefers its fuel to be aged on oak. ... ethanol. ... more ... etc., ... situation ... it ... ha ... distillers ... all-
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 6, 2007
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      My lawnmower prefers its fuel to be aged on oak.






      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "rhodeseng" <rhodeseng@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > I don't ususlly add to the foray here.
      >
      > But in this case a little correction/clarification is needed.
      >
      > It is not illegal to posess a still in the US. It is illegal to
      > posess an unlicensed one.
      >
      > It is illegal to sell untaxed acohol.
      >
      > I have a permit for a fuel process that uses a still to make
      ethanol.
      >
      > If any of the product leaves the property which is permitted, it
      > must be denatured ( make undrinkable).
      >
      > its pretty simple to obtain one. requires a once a year report of
      > production.
      >
      > I have mine hanging on the wall with pride. I just wish it was
      more
      > professional looking.
      >
      > The permit is simply a authorized/signed copy of the application
      > that was filled out.
      >
      > cary
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, jkirby007@ wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > In a message dated 8/6/2007 2:24:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
      > > dannym354@ writes:
      > >
      > > I'm doing some research on bootlegging, moonshine, stills,
      etc.,
      > and
      > > have a question for those in the US or familiar with the
      situation
      > > here. Sorry if this has been covered on here, but I didn't see
      it
      > > addressed in the FAQ (at least not exactly the question I have
      > in mind).
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > any production at all and any kind of a still is very illegal in
      > the US,
      > > POSSESING A STILL IS A 10,000.00 FINE AND POSSIBLE taking your
      > home at the same
      > > tine , the likker is also the same if you get caught,
      > > There are no other laws you dont make likker in the US, ha ha
      ha
      > ha- there
      > > are stories in the papers here in alabama very often of
      distillers
      > and
      > > sellers being caught,
      > > being caught w a small amount of illicit likker here is just as
      > bad as
      > > being a bank robber,and is delt with just about as meanly.
      > > BUT ALAS I STILL MAKE A LIL EVERY NOW AND AGAIN.
      > > Antiquated laws like this make a lot of people out laws here.
      > needless to
      > > say it still happens,just dont get caught doing it .
      > > SO any possesing or making of a still is illegal in the us, and
      > also making
      > > any whisky is illegal.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the
      all-
      > new AOL at
      > > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
      > >
      >
    • jim o
      where and how do you register your still. where and how do you get the permit to make fuel? ... mind). ... US, ... the same ... there ... to ... making ... AOL
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 23, 2007
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        where and how do you register your still. where and how do you get the
        permit to make fuel?
        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, jkirby007@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > In a message dated 8/6/2007 2:24:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
        > dannym354@... writes:
        >
        > I'm doing some research on bootlegging, moonshine, stills, etc., and
        > have a question for those in the US or familiar with the situation
        > here. Sorry if this has been covered on here, but I didn't see it
        > addressed in the FAQ (at least not exactly the question I have in
        mind).
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > any production at all and any kind of a still is very illegal in the
        US,
        > POSSESING A STILL IS A 10,000.00 FINE AND POSSIBLE taking your home at
        the same
        > tine , the likker is also the same if you get caught,
        > There are no other laws you dont make likker in the US, ha ha ha ha-
        there
        > are stories in the papers here in alabama very often of distillers and
        > sellers being caught,
        > being caught w a small amount of illicit likker here is just as bad as
        > being a bank robber,and is delt with just about as meanly.
        > BUT ALAS I STILL MAKE A LIL EVERY NOW AND AGAIN.
        > Antiquated laws like this make a lot of people out laws here. needless
        to
        > say it still happens,just dont get caught doing it .
        > SO any possesing or making of a still is illegal in the us, and also
        making
        > any whisky is illegal.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new
        AOL at
        > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
        >
      • cls315@windstream.net
        I had always thought the selling of the liquor was illegal, not the personal consumption? Im a real newbie, so maybe Im just stupid.
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 23, 2007
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          I had always thought the "selling" of the liquor was illegal, not the personal consumption? Im a real newbie, so maybe Im just stupid.
          >
          > From: "jim o" <jmoneil1947@...>
          > Date: 2007/08/23 Thu AM 09:50:42 CDT
          > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: USA legal situation
          >
          > where and how do you register your still. where and how do you get the
          > permit to make fuel?
          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, jkirby007@... wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > In a message dated 8/6/2007 2:24:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
          > > dannym354@... writes:
          > >
          > > I'm doing some research on bootlegging, moonshine, stills, etc., and
          > > have a question for those in the US or familiar with the situation
          > > here. Sorry if this has been covered on here, but I didn't see it
          > > addressed in the FAQ (at least not exactly the question I have in
          > mind).
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > any production at all and any kind of a still is very illegal in the
          > US,
          > > POSSESING A STILL IS A 10,000.00 FINE AND POSSIBLE taking your home at
          > the same
          > > tine , the likker is also the same if you get caught,
          > > There are no other laws you dont make likker in the US, ha ha ha ha-
          > there
          > > are stories in the papers here in alabama very often of distillers and
          > > sellers being caught,
          > > being caught w a small amount of illicit likker here is just as bad as
          > > being a bank robber,and is delt with just about as meanly.
          > > BUT ALAS I STILL MAKE A LIL EVERY NOW AND AGAIN.
          > > Antiquated laws like this make a lot of people out laws here. needless
          > to
          > > say it still happens,just dont get caught doing it .
          > > SO any possesing or making of a still is illegal in the us, and also
          > making
          > > any whisky is illegal.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new
          > AOL at
          > > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • rye_junkie
          ... the personal consumption? Im a real newbie, so maybe Im just stupid. Not stupid but misinformed. Distilling Spirits for sale or personal use is still
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 23, 2007
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            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, <cls315@...> wrote:
            >
            > I had always thought the "selling" of the liquor was illegal, not
            the personal consumption? Im a real newbie, so maybe Im just stupid.


            Not stupid but misinformed. Distilling Spirits for sale or personal
            use is still Illegal in the US. And if you google "moonshine arrests"
            you will come up with some very recent examples. However all of what
            you find will be because of selling or the persons caught with shine
            were initially busted for drugs and the cops added that to it. There
            seems to be some interesting things going on in Virginia over the last
            few years. The Stills sold on the web are sold as water distillers or
            for essential oils but keep in mind that in the US those businesses
            are required to keep records of those sales. Overseas and canada are
            not. Even some of the ATF agents dont know. I asked an agent a few
            years ago about it and she told me you could make up to 50 gallons for
            personal consumption. A few weeks later she called and said she was
            wrong.
            Don't sell it, don't Flaunt it, Keep you mash under 10 gallon
            batches. That way you could at least argue to the judge that you were
            doing it as a hobby. I really dont think most care any more as long
            as your not being stupid. Chances are it will be legal here in the
            next few years but I wont hold my breath. There are still to many
            people that think it is of the Devil. And to many politicians sitting
            around drinking illicit shine while thinking about the tax money they
            would lose.
          • Larry
            ... It is legal to own a still in the USA, it s even legal to buy and sell them, and several sites do exactly that. Stills can be used to make distilled
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 23, 2007
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              At 09:50 AM 08/23/2007, you wrote:
              > In a message dated 8/6/2007 2:24:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
              > dannym354@... writes:
              >
              > I'm doing some research on bootlegging, moonshine, stills, etc., and
              > have a question for those in the US or familiar with the situation
              > here. Sorry if this has been covered on here, but I didn't see it
              > addressed in the FAQ (at least not exactly the question I have in mind).

              It is legal to own a still in the USA, it's even legal to buy and sell them, and several sites do exactly that.  Stills can be used to make distilled water, "essential oils", vinegar, and whatever.

              It's legal to a own gun in the USA, but in MOST cases, it's not legal to shoot someone with it... stills are the same way.   In MOST cases, it's not legal to distill alcohol with them, and never legal to distill alcohol for drinking purposes with them.

              Distilling drinking alcohol is a rollercoaster thing... all home alcohol production was illegal, a federal misdemeanor, then for a short while it was legal to make liquor, beer, and wine at home in small quantities for personal consumption.

              Then beer and wine were left alone, but home production of liquor in any quantity, for any purpose, not only went back to "illegal", but became a federal felony, instead of a misdemeanor. 

              THEN, (just fairly recently) it became legal to distill ethanol for fuel purposes, by obtaining a federal permit to do so.  Instead of maximum quantities allowed, there were minimum quantities required, as I recall.

              Getting the permit for a home operation is not very expensive, it's priced by how many tens of thousands of gallons per year you want to be allowed to make. 

              But there are some permit requirements other than money for getting it... not just a matter of filling out the form and paying the fee.

              You have to have your still located a specified distance from the nearest residential building, all alcohol must be denatured before it leaves your property, and there are several others which I don't remember.

              There are also local requirements that may need to be addressed.    I used to load my own rifle & pistol ammunition.  It was legal, under federal law, for me to have pretty much any quantity of smokeless powder that I cared to store.

              However, the city where I live had a limit of about 40 pounds, because it burns very fast and hot... they like for firefighters to have a chance of keeping your fire from visiting your next-door neighbor(s).  City ordinance also limits home storage of gasoline (and probably ethanol) for the same reason. 

              So things that have nothing to do with legality of actually distilling the alcohol can also get in the way of a legal Shadetree E85 Distilling Plant.

              The U.S. government will actually PAY you to distill fuel alcohol (again, under certain requirements), though.

              If you own your own business, and burn your E85 in company vehicles, OR if you sell it to others, you can get a break on income-tax, in addition to deducting all costs of purchasing equipment and supplies, as Business Expenses. 

              Someone also once told me that the U.S. Department of  Agriculture had something in their website about giving you a subsidy for distilling. I went to www.usda.com but didn't find anything, unless it was somewhere under "Grants", and curiosity didn't take me any farther.  Maybe yours will.

















              >
              >
              >
              >
              > any production at all and any kind of a still is very illegal in the
              US,
              > POSSESING A STILL IS A 10,000.00 FINE AND POSSIBLE taking your home at
              the same
              > tine , the likker is also the same if you get caught,
              > There are no other laws you dont make likker in the US, ha ha ha ha-
              there
              > are stories in the papers here in alabama very often of distillers and
              > sellers being caught,
              > being caught w a small amount of illicit likker here is just as bad as
              > being a bank robber,and is delt with just about as meanly.
              > BUT ALAS I STILL MAKE A LIL EVERY NOW AND AGAIN.
              > Antiquated laws like this make a lot of people out laws here. needless
              to
              > say it still happens,just dont get caught doing it .
              > SO any possesing or making of a still is illegal in the us, and also
              making
              > any whisky is illegal.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new
              AOL at
              > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
              >

            • Larry
              ... It was, for a short period of time, legal to distill for personal consumption only. Before that, and ESPECIALLY after, it was/is illegal to distill alcohol
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 23, 2007
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                At 11:38 AM 08/23/2007, you wrote:
                >I had always thought the "selling" of the liquor was illegal, not the
                >personal consumption? Im a real newbie, so maybe Im just stupid.

                It was, for a short period of time, legal to distill for personal
                consumption only.
                Before that, and ESPECIALLY after, it was/is illegal to distill alcohol for
                drinking purposes in any amount at all.

                Home distilling in any amount is a federal felony at present, except for
                Fuel Alcohol by permit.

                I'm not sure mere possession of moonshine is illegal, per se. It might be,
                but I don't think so.

                Even if not, possessing more of it than you could possibly drink yourself
                could probably be snowballed into an assumption that you have it for the
                purpose of selling it un-taxed (bootlegging), thus essentially getting you
                busted for merely possessing it, ANYWAY.

                As for enforcement in the USA, that isn't done too aggressively by the ATF
                in most cases, because trying to get a living out of making and selling
                moonshine is not a winning proposition.

                Most people who get into it to make a living Moonshining For Fun & Profit,
                don't do it too long before they quit so they can re-join the workforce and
                keep paying the bills.

                Major distilleries have gotten things so efficient that they can get a
                bottle of liquor into a liquor store very cheaply and still make a good
                profit.

                By the time you bought the ingredients, made the liquor, and bottled it for
                sale, the actual profit divided by the number of hours spent making it
                would have you making less than minimum wage.

                You could literally make better money ringing up beer & sodas at a
                convenience store.

                That isn't to say that moonshiners don't get arrested, and more often than
                you generally hear about.

                It's just that the ATF doesn't give a damn about you moonshining unless
                some local Law Enforcer hands you over to them, already packaged and ready
                to go, or unless you're selling enough to be dodging federal liquor taxes
                in very serious amounts.

                Keep in mind that any local cop can arrest you on a federal charge... your
                arrest doesn't have to originate with the feds.

                Most often, people get arrested when they flaunt it, and get turned-in.

                For instance, you might take note of how seldom you see people are using
                their real names in this forum, or even mentioning the cities they live in.
                What you write here isn't as big a risk as your own mouth and actions at
                home, though.

                Your biggest danger is that you'll become widely known among your friends
                as a moonshiner, then be turned in by one of them, OR by one of THEIR
                friends they may have discussed you with (and whom you've never even met).

                When people get arrested, and are offered legal benefits for information
                about crimes committed by other people, you'd be surprised what they might
                say about moonshiners they can finger.

                There other things too... if your still starts a fire that is big enough to
                make the fire department show up (or a helpful neighbor calls them), they
                are likely to report you, even if they arrive without a police escort.

                If relations with a next-door-neighbor aren't the best, and he sees or
                hears about what you're doing, that can also result in a tip to local police.

                Got a soon-to-be ex-girlfriend, or ex-wife? Things going south with a
                former friend? You don't necessarily have to hang out with people likely
                to get arrested for serious crimes to get yourself ratted-out...


                The whole thing against moonshining, has been $$$, for a couple hundred
                years in this country. At one time, some big moonshine state (Arkansas,
                Tennessee, Kentucky, or somesuch) even set up a way for people to
                anonymously pay liquor tax on moonshine!

                That way, if they got caught later, they could at least dodge charges of
                avoiding the state liquor tax, on top of the other charges they faced.
              • sonum norbu
                The selling of liquor is illegal. The government hates competition. It s also illegal to distill in most countries - I think New Zealand is an exception -
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 23, 2007
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                  The selling of liquor is illegal. The government hates competition. It's also illegal to distill in most countries - I think New Zealand is an exception - But id you keep your mouth shut and don't tell the world, you're probably safe. If you choose to sell it, well, that's your problem. I'm talking booze not fuel.

                  Blanikdog


                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: cls315@...
                  > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: USA legal situation
                  > Date: Thu, 23 Aug:38:14 -0500
                  >
                  >
                  > I had always thought the "selling" of the liquor was illegal, not
                  > the personal consumption? Im a real newbie, so maybe Im just
                  > stupid.
                  > >
                  > > From: "jim o" <jmoneil1947@...>
                  > > Date: 2007/08/23 Thu AM 09:50:42 CDT
                  > > To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: USA legal situation
                  > >
                  > > where and how do you register your still. where and how do you get the
                  > > permit to make fuel?
                  > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, jkirby007@... wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > In a message dated 8/6/2007 2:24:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
                  > > > dannym354@... writes:
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm doing some research on bootlegging, moonshine, stills, etc., and
                  > > > have a question for those in the US or familiar with the situation
                  > > > here. Sorry if this has been covered on here, but I didn't see it
                  > > > addressed in the FAQ (at least not exactly the question I have in
                  > > mind).
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > any production at all and any kind of a still is very illegal in the
                  > > US,
                  > > > POSSESING A STILL IS A 10,000.00 FINE AND POSSIBLE taking your home at
                  > > the same
                  > > > tine , the likker is also the same if you get caught,
                  > > > There are no other laws you dont make likker in the US, ha ha ha ha-
                  > > there
                  > > > are stories in the papers here in alabama very often of distillers and
                  > > > sellers being caught,
                  > > > being caught w a small amount of illicit likker here is just as bad as
                  > > > being a bank robber,and is delt with just about as meanly.
                  > > > BUT ALAS I STILL MAKE A LIL EVERY NOW AND AGAIN.
                  > > > Antiquated laws like this make a lot of people out laws here. needless
                  > > to
                  > > > say it still happens,just dont get caught doing it .
                  > > > SO any possesing or making of a still is illegal in the us, and also
                  > > making
                  > > > any whisky is illegal.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new
                  > > AOL at
                  > > > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >

                  >



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                • xylic75
                  ... hundred ... (Arkansas, ... charges of ... faced. ... That s in TN. And it more applies to marijuana than shine nowadays. OR meth as that seems to be the
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 24, 2007
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                    > The whole thing against moonshining, has been $$$, for a couple
                    hundred
                    > years in this country. At one time, some big moonshine state
                    (Arkansas,
                    > Tennessee, Kentucky, or somesuch) even set up a way for people to
                    > anonymously pay liquor tax on moonshine!
                    >
                    > That way, if they got caught later, they could at least dodge
                    charges of
                    > avoiding the state liquor tax, on top of the other charges they
                    faced.
                    >

                    That's in TN. And it more applies to marijuana than shine nowadays.
                    OR meth as that seems to be the new thing. Keeps the IRS from getting
                    involved. ;)

                    xyl
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