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Re: Reflux head design feedback request

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  • abbababbaccc
    There are some plastic brands that could be used for columns, but when you look at their price copper and stainless are indeed very cost effective
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 22 11:25 PM
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      There are some plastic brands that could be used for columns, but when
      you look at their price copper and stainless are indeed very cost
      effective alternatives. The only practical application for plastic is
      making a boiler out of a plastic bucket, but even for that
      PolyPropylene is the only commonly available plastic that can be
      employed safely.

      Cheers, Riku

      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Then you'll see that copper/stainless is very much 'cost effective',
      > when compared to the constant parts replacement and health issues
      > associated with PVC in ethanol processing (distilling) equipment.
      >
    • newstillhead
      I modified the name in the photo to Feedback_DO NOT USE PVC Other then the material PVC used is the design sound? Thanks ... when ... is ... effective ,
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 23 7:56 AM
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        I modified the name in the photo to "Feedback_DO NOT USE PVC"

        Other then the material "PVC" used is the design sound?

        Thanks

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
        <abbababbaccc@...> wrote:
        >
        > There are some plastic brands that could be used for columns, but
        when
        > you look at their price copper and stainless are indeed very cost
        > effective alternatives. The only practical application for plastic
        is
        > making a boiler out of a plastic bucket, but even for that
        > PolyPropylene is the only commonly available plastic that can be
        > employed safely.
        >
        > Cheers, Riku
        >
        > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Then you'll see that copper/stainless is very much 'cost
        effective',
        > > when compared to the constant parts replacement and health issues
        > > associated with PVC in ethanol processing (distilling) equipment.
        > >
        >
      • Harry
        ... Are you trying to run coolant tubes and reflux return back to the BOTTOM of your column? Slainte! regards Harry
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 23 4:13 PM
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          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "newstillhead"
          <newstillhead@...> wrote:
          >
          > I modified the name in the photo to "Feedback_DO NOT USE PVC"
          >
          > Other then the material "PVC" used is the design sound?
          >
          > Thanks



          Are you trying to run coolant tubes and reflux return back to the
          BOTTOM of your column?


          Slainte!
          regards Harry
        • duds2u
          It looks like he is returning them both to the top of the packing. My question is, as you are looking atwaht appears to be a valved reflux head why would you
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 23 6:17 PM
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            It looks like he is returning them both to the top of the packing.

            My question is, as you are looking atwaht appears to be a valved reflux
            head why would you want to add more reflux to the column by returning
            you condenser coolant water through the column?
            If you have the condenser coil the correct size you will be able to
            totally control the reflux with the output and reflux return valves
            without disturbing your carefully created equilibrium in the column.
            Cheers
            Mal T.
            >
            >
            > Are you trying to run coolant tubes and reflux return back to the
            > BOTTOM of your column?
            >
            >
            > Slainte!
            > regards Harry
            >
          • newstillhead
            The intent was to run a coolant line below the reflux to off set the heat exchange normally seen when using a metal pipe. BTW I have read a lot and understand
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 23 8:32 PM
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              The intent was to run a coolant line below the reflux to off set the
              heat exchange normally seen when using a metal pipe.

              BTW I have read a lot and understand the error of the material but I
              have contacted a PVC production plan (My brother in law works at one)
              just for information to see what information the Chem. Eng at the
              plant would say the chemical reaction would be for high temp alcohol
              vapor coming in contact with schedule 40 PVC rated as Good at 73* F.


              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "newstillhead"
              > <newstillhead@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I modified the name in the photo to "Feedback_DO NOT USE PVC"
              > >
              > > Other then the material "PVC" used is the design sound?
              > >
              > > Thanks
              >
              >
              >
              > Are you trying to run coolant tubes and reflux return back to the
              > BOTTOM of your column?
              >
              >
              > Slainte!
              > regards Harry
              >
            • Harry
              ...
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 23 10:22 PM
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                --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "newstillhead" <newstillhead@ ...> wrote:
                >
                > The intent was to run a coolant line below the reflux to off set the
                > heat exchange normally seen when using a metal pipe.

                 


                ........But that's the whole point of reflux; to provide a vehicle for heat exchange with the rising vapours.  Sub-cooling your reflux will just allow it to dump through to the boiler, killing your 2-way column action.  Don't forget the returning hot liquid (the reflux) is equally important to rising vapours in a fractioning column.


                >
                >  BTW I have read a lot and understand the error of the material but I
                > have contacted a PVC production plan (My brother in law works at one)
                > just for information to see what information the Chem. Eng at the
                > plant would say the chemical reaction would be for high temp alcohol
                > vapor coming in contact with schedule 40 PVC rated as Good at 73* F.

                 

                .......73°F is a long way short of 172°F (BP of azeotrope ethanol).

                 


                > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Are you trying to run coolant tubes and reflux return back to the
                > > BOTTOM of your column?

                 

                ........The reason for this query was I saw your reference in your drawing to a column measurement of 3" x 36" ABOVE the reflux return and proposed coolant thru-tube.  So we'll let that one go.

                As for it being an otherwise sound design, I think not.  It could do with a few basic alterations.
                #1  You are using rubber tubing to return hot reflux, thus leaching contaminants back into your still.

                #2  Said rubber tubing presents a potential fire hazard in the likely event of a tubing failure.  That's why metal tubing is used for handling hot ethanol.

                #3  You have made no provision for preventing vapours from travelling through the reflux tube and into your product, bypassing the condenser.  It should have a vapour trap.

                #4  The coolant flow for your condenser should be reversed.  Unless high pressure is maintained, your downward flow direction can leave the condenser starving for coolant, thus it doesn't liquefy all the vapours (hugely inefficient) and these escaping vapours will create problems both in your reflux line and your product lineout.

                #5  You could simplify the entire reflux/product removal system with a simple design change that will allow you to regulate your reflux:product ratio to whatever you want.

                See suggested changes in the album here...

                http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/photos/browse/97a9

                Just a few ideas.

                HTH

                Slainte!
                regards Harry

              • joe giffen
                Hi Harry, You have the patience of a saint. Why do people persist in this rubber/plastic thing?. Do they not take the bother to read?. As I have said before,
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 23 10:38 PM
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                  Hi Harry,
                  You have the patience of a saint. Why do people persist in this rubber/plastic thing?. Do they not take the bother to read?. As I have said before, there are costs in any hobby and should be borne and then get on with the fun bit. More money is wasted faffing around with materials that are totally unsuitable when copper or stainless steel will give a lifetime service.I was prompted to write this after reading  73f.
                  Regards
                  Joe
                  Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:

                  --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "newstillhead" <newstillhead@ ...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The intent was to run a coolant line below the reflux to off set the
                  > heat exchange normally seen when using a metal pipe.
                   

                  ........But that's the whole point of reflux; to provide a vehicle for heat exchange with the rising vapours.  Sub-cooling your reflux will just allow it to dump through to the boiler, killing your 2-way column action.  Don't forget the returning hot liquid (the reflux) is equally important to rising vapours in a fractioning column.

                  >
                  >  BTW I have read a lot and understand the error of the material but I
                  > have contacted a PVC production plan (My brother in law works at one)
                  > just for information to see what information the Chem. Eng at the
                  > plant would say the chemical reaction would be for high temp alcohol
                  > vapor coming in contact with schedule 40 PVC rated as Good at 73* F.
                   
                  .......73°F is a long way short of 172°F (BP of azeotrope ethanol).
                   

                  > --- In new_distillers@ yahoogroups. com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Are you trying to run coolant tubes and reflux return back to the
                  > > BOTTOM of your column?
                   
                  ........The reason for this query was I saw your reference in your drawing to a column measurement of 3" x 36" ABOVE the reflux return and proposed coolant thru-tube.  So we'll let that one go.
                  As for it being an otherwise sound design, I think not.  It could do with a few basic alterations.
                  #1  You are using rubber tubing to return hot reflux, thus leaching contaminants back into your still.

                  #2  Said rubber tubing presents a potential fire hazard in the likely event of a tubing failure.  That's why metal tubing is used for handling hot ethanol.

                  #3  You have made no provision for preventing vapours from travelling through the reflux tube and into your product, bypassing the condenser.  It should have a vapour trap.

                  #4  The coolant flow for your condenser should be reversed.  Unless high pressure is maintained, your downward flow direction can leave the condenser starving for coolant, thus it doesn't liquefy all the vapours (hugely inefficient) and these escaping vapours will create problems both in your reflux line and your product lineout.

                  #5  You could simplify the entire reflux/product removal system with a simple design change that will allow you to regulate your reflux:product ratio to whatever you want.
                  See suggested changes below...
                  Original
                  http://f9g.yahoofs.com/groups/g_hr_468252/97a9/__hr_/450b.jpg?grgEcpGBHwA68AXP
                  ============ ========= ========= ==
                  Suggested Mods
                  http://f9g.yahoofs.com/groups/g_hr_468252/97a9/__hr_/7b08.jpg?gr40bpGBqovaLrH0
                   
                  Just a few ideas.
                  HTH
                  Slainte!
                  regards Harry



                  Regards
                  Joe


                  Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Try it now.

                • polaris041
                  I think its time the world class still was retired from such a prominent position on the web. When there are designs like Bokakobs mini still, that are so
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 23 10:47 PM
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                    I think its time the "world class" still was retired from such a
                    prominent position on the web.

                    When there are designs like Bokakobs mini still, that are so simple
                    and effective.

                    http://homedistiller.org/designs.htm

                    Other thing with Boks still is it can be converted to VM so simply
                    when one wants too.

                    Just my thoughts
                    Pol

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, joe giffen <joegiffen@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Harry,
                    > You have the patience of a saint. Why do people persist in this
                    rubber/plastic thing?. Do they not take the bother to read?. As I
                    have said before, there are costs in any hobby and should be borne
                    and then get on with the fun bit. More money is wasted faffing around
                    with materials that are totally unsuitable when copper or stainless
                    steel will give a lifetime service.I was prompted to write this after
                    reading 73f.
                    > Regards
                    > Joe
                    > Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "newstillhead"
                    <newstillhead@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The intent was to run a coolant line below the reflux to off set
                    the
                    > > heat exchange normally seen when using a metal pipe.
                    >
                    >
                    > ........But that's the whole point of reflux; to provide a vehicle
                    for heat exchange with the rising vapours. Sub-cooling your reflux
                    will just allow it to dump through to the boiler, killing your 2-way
                    column action. Don't forget the returning hot liquid (the reflux) is
                    equally important to rising vapours in a fractioning column.
                    >
                    > >
                    > > BTW I have read a lot and understand the error of the material
                    but I
                    > > have contacted a PVC production plan (My brother in law works at
                    one)
                    > > just for information to see what information the Chem. Eng at the
                    > > plant would say the chemical reaction would be for high temp
                    alcohol
                    > > vapor coming in contact with schedule 40 PVC rated as Good at 73*
                    F.
                    >
                    > .......73°F is a long way short of 172°F (BP of azeotrope
                    ethanol).
                    >
                    >
                    > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Are you trying to run coolant tubes and reflux return back to
                    the
                    > > > BOTTOM of your column?
                    >
                    > ........The reason for this query was I saw your reference in
                    your drawing to a column measurement of 3" x 36" ABOVE the reflux
                    return and proposed coolant thru-tube. So we'll let that one go.
                    > As for it being an otherwise sound design, I think not. It could
                    do with a few basic alterations.
                    > #1 You are using rubber tubing to return hot reflux, thus leaching
                    contaminants back into your still.
                    >
                    > #2 Said rubber tubing presents a potential fire hazard in the
                    likely event of a tubing failure. That's why metal tubing is used
                    for handling hot ethanol.
                    >
                    > #3 You have made no provision for preventing vapours from
                    travelling through the reflux tube and into your product, bypassing
                    the condenser. It should have a vapour trap.
                    >
                    > #4 The coolant flow for your condenser should be reversed. Unless
                    high pressure is maintained, your downward flow direction can leave
                    the condenser starving for coolant, thus it doesn't liquefy all the
                    vapours (hugely inefficient) and these escaping vapours will create
                    problems both in your reflux line and your product lineout.
                    >
                    > #5 You could simplify the entire reflux/product removal system
                    with a simple design change that will allow you to regulate your
                    reflux:product ratio to whatever you want.
                    > See suggested changes below...
                    > Original
                    >
                    > ================================
                    > Suggested Mods
                    >
                    > Just a few ideas.
                    > HTH
                    > Slainte!
                    > regards Harry
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Regards
                    > Joe
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit
                    now.
                    >
                  • newstillhead
                    Well thanks for the candid feedback. I think its time to kill this beast as the design has been trashed for a simple 2 x 18 stack to a 1 1/2 x 5 arm then a
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 24 2:16 PM
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                      Well thanks for the candid feedback. I think its time to kill this
                      beast as the design has been trashed for a simple 2" x 18" stack to a
                      1 1/2" x 5' arm then a 20' 3/4inch coil in a 55 Galon drum, all made
                      of copper sitting on a SS keg.

                      That should work correct?

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "polaris041" <polaris@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > I think its time the "world class" still was retired from such a
                      > prominent position on the web.
                      >
                      > When there are designs like Bokakobs mini still, that are so simple
                      > and effective.
                      >
                      > http://homedistiller.org/designs.htm
                      >
                      > Other thing with Boks still is it can be converted to VM so simply
                      > when one wants too.
                      >
                      > Just my thoughts
                      > Pol
                      >
                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, joe giffen <joegiffen@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Harry,
                      > > You have the patience of a saint. Why do people persist in this
                      > rubber/plastic thing?. Do they not take the bother to read?. As I
                      > have said before, there are costs in any hobby and should be borne
                      > and then get on with the fun bit. More money is wasted faffing
                      around
                      > with materials that are totally unsuitable when copper or stainless
                      > steel will give a lifetime service.I was prompted to write this
                      after
                      > reading 73f.
                      > > Regards
                      > > Joe
                      > > Harry <gnikomson2000@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "newstillhead"
                      > <newstillhead@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > The intent was to run a coolant line below the reflux to off
                      set
                      > the
                      > > > heat exchange normally seen when using a metal pipe.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ........But that's the whole point of reflux; to provide a
                      vehicle
                      > for heat exchange with the rising vapours. Sub-cooling your reflux
                      > will just allow it to dump through to the boiler, killing your 2-
                      way
                      > column action. Don't forget the returning hot liquid (the reflux)
                      is
                      > equally important to rising vapours in a fractioning column.
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > BTW I have read a lot and understand the error of the material
                      > but I
                      > > > have contacted a PVC production plan (My brother in law works
                      at
                      > one)
                      > > > just for information to see what information the Chem. Eng at
                      the
                      > > > plant would say the chemical reaction would be for high temp
                      > alcohol
                      > > > vapor coming in contact with schedule 40 PVC rated as Good at
                      73*
                      > F.
                      > >
                      > > .......73°F is a long way short of 172°F (BP of azeotrope
                      > ethanol).
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@>
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Are you trying to run coolant tubes and reflux return back to
                      > the
                      > > > > BOTTOM of your column?
                      > >
                      > > ........The reason for this query was I saw your reference in
                      > your drawing to a column measurement of 3" x 36" ABOVE the reflux
                      > return and proposed coolant thru-tube. So we'll let that one go.
                      > > As for it being an otherwise sound design, I think not. It
                      could
                      > do with a few basic alterations.
                      > > #1 You are using rubber tubing to return hot reflux, thus
                      leaching
                      > contaminants back into your still.
                      > >
                      > > #2 Said rubber tubing presents a potential fire hazard in the
                      > likely event of a tubing failure. That's why metal tubing is used
                      > for handling hot ethanol.
                      > >
                      > > #3 You have made no provision for preventing vapours from
                      > travelling through the reflux tube and into your product, bypassing
                      > the condenser. It should have a vapour trap.
                      > >
                      > > #4 The coolant flow for your condenser should be reversed.
                      Unless
                      > high pressure is maintained, your downward flow direction can leave
                      > the condenser starving for coolant, thus it doesn't liquefy all the
                      > vapours (hugely inefficient) and these escaping vapours will create
                      > problems both in your reflux line and your product lineout.
                      > >
                      > > #5 You could simplify the entire reflux/product removal system
                      > with a simple design change that will allow you to regulate your
                      > reflux:product ratio to whatever you want.
                      > > See suggested changes below...
                      > > Original
                      > >
                      > > ================================
                      > > Suggested Mods
                      > >
                      > > Just a few ideas.
                      > > HTH
                      > > Slainte!
                      > > regards Harry
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Regards
                      > > Joe
                      > >
                      > > ---------------------------------
                      > > Yahoo! Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows.
                      Tryit
                      > now.
                      > >
                      >
                    • Harry
                      ... a ... made ... As a potstill, yes. Slainte! regards Harry
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 24 3:17 PM
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                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "newstillhead"
                        <newstillhead@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Well thanks for the candid feedback. I think its time to kill this
                        > beast as the design has been trashed for a simple 2" x 18" stack to
                        a
                        > 1 1/2" x 5' arm then a 20' 3/4inch coil in a 55 Galon drum, all
                        made
                        > of copper sitting on a SS keg.
                        >
                        > That should work correct?



                        As a potstill, yes.

                        Slainte!
                        regards Harry
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