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Re: Plastic jacketed condensers

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  • Trid
    ... The simple answer is yes. I can use it as both. ... Yes again :) But wait, there s more... The 45 elbow allows it to connect to the 2 tee at the top
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 5 7:09 AM
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      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "dearknarl" <dearknarl@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hey Trid,
      >
      > Do you use it as a reflux condenser, or as a pot still/product
      > condenser?

      The simple answer is "yes." I can use it as both.

      > In which case, is that what the 45 degree elbow is for?
      > and what is the 2" nipple for? If it was a reflux condenser, it would
      > just slot right on top of a 2" column instead of a coil right?

      Yes again :) But wait, there's more...
      The 45 elbow allows it to connect to the 2" tee at the top of my pot
      still column. The tee sits sideways so the openings are
      top/bottom/side. The top is capped for my thermometer port, the side
      is effectively my lyne arm (only about 2" long) and the bottom fits
      into my column. The 45 at the end of my condenser slides on to the
      "lyne arm" and gravity holds it in place. Saran Wrap and other cling
      films are designed to withstand >=212F so I'm ok with using it to keep
      drips from happening at that joint. The 2" nipple at the other end is
      where I slide my reducing fitting on which ends in a 1/2" union which
      allows me to put any arrangement of elbows and tubing sections to
      reach my collection vessel...it's all modular so I can experiment with
      different physical configurations.

      However, as a reflux condenser, the nipple does exactly as you
      deduced...it fits into the top of the column. It's multi-functional :)

      I will try to get around to the photos I previously threatened to post
      earlier...hopefully tonight.

      > I was thinking of doing very similar, but using 21 6mm (~1/4") OD
      > tubes instead of 14 larger ones like you. Does anyone know if I'd
      > get
      > any flooding at about 1.3kW if it was vertically mounted as a reflux
      > condenser?

      I'd almost put money on the fact that it wouldn't get flooded at only
      1.3 kw. If you know the ID, figure the total area inside the tubes
      and compare that to that of other sized pipes...1/2", 3/4" etc.
      Remember also that with flooding you're considering the condensed
      liquid clogging things up. There's also the consideration of
      incomplete condensation...where you'd have vapor exiting your
      condenser. I would pretty much guarantee that with 21 tubes, if your
      length is 12" or greater you have no risk of that as long as coolant
      is flowing through the jacket.

      Trid
      -must remember to take photos
    • Harry
      ... , Trid wrote: I would pretty much guarantee that with 21 tubes, if your ... I ll vouch for
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 5 9:32 AM
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        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Trid" <triddlywinks@...> wrote:
         I would pretty much guarantee that with 21 tubes, if your
        > length is 12" or greater you have no risk of that as long as coolant
        > is flowing through the jacket.
        >
        > Trid

         

        I'll vouch for that.  I use a crossflow (multi-tube) condenser as a reflux total condenser on top of the column.  It's got 19 tubes @ 6mm x 140mm ( 1/4" x 5 1/2" ) and it can handle 2000w with ease, at a 6 litre/minute water flow.

        The same configuration with the water & vapour reversed as in gatling gun style (which is what you're referring to) would handle similar but slightly less power input, due to laminar non-turbulent vapour flow in the tubes as opposed to rightangle impinging (it's an efficiency thing, way too complicated to easily explain).

        Double the overall length to 12" as Trid suggests and it would potentially handle about 3 to 3.5kW, depending on water flow rate.  The harder the power push, the more margin for inefficiencies you have to design in.  Suffice to say, 21 tubes @ 6mm x 300mm ( 1/4" x 12" ) in a gatling gun or multi-tube liebig configuration will condense just about anything you can produce from a 2" or even 3" column.

        This is the type of final product condenser used in modern eau-de-vie stills such as Christian Carl & Holstein.  The black arrow indicates the final condenser below...

         


        Slainte!
        regards Harry

      • dearknarl
        Thanks Trid and Harry, I already figured that the condensing power was plenty with that many pipes, and the summated cross sectional area is equivalent to at
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 5 3:07 PM
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          Thanks Trid and Harry,

          I already figured that the condensing power was plenty with that many
          pipes, and the summated cross sectional area is equivalent to at least
          a 20mm ID pipe which wouldn't flood, but I was actually concerned
          about the surface tention of the liquid causing flooding or
          spluttering becasue of the smaller diameter pipes. What is the typical
          tube size that people use for shotgun/gattling gun condensers?

          Cheers,
          knarl.

          On 7/6/07, Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> , "Trid" <triddlywinks@...>
          > wrote:
          > I would pretty much guarantee that with 21 tubes, if your
          > > length is 12" or greater you have no risk of that as long as coolant
          > > is flowing through the jacket.
          > >
          > > Trid
          >
          >
          >
          > I'll vouch for that. I use a crossflow (multi-tube) condenser as a
          > reflux total condenser on top of the column. It's got 19 tubes @ 6mm x
          > 140mm ( 1/4" x 5 1/2" ) and it can handle 2000w with ease, at a 6
          > litre/minute water flow.
          >
          > The same configuration with the water & vapour reversed as in gatling
          > gun style (which is what you're referring to) would handle similar but
          > slightly less power input, due to laminar non-turbulent vapour flow in
          > the tubes as opposed to rightangle impinging (it's an efficiency thing,
          > way too complicated to easily explain).
          >
          > Double the overall length to 12" as Trid suggests and it would
          > potentially handle about 3 to 3.5kW, depending on water flow rate. The
          > harder the power push, the more margin for inefficiencies you have to
          > design in. Suffice to say, 21 tubes @ 6mm x 300mm ( 1/4" x 12" ) in a
          > gatling gun or multi-tube liebig configuration will condense just about
          > anything you can produce from a 2" or even 3" column.
          >
          > This is the type of final product condenser used in modern eau-de-vie
          > stills such as Christian Carl & Holstein. The black arrow indicates the
          > final condenser below...
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Slainte!
          > regards Harry
          >
          >
        • Harry
          ... , dearknarl ... Well I don t know what the typical size is that people use, but I can tell you the
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 5 9:33 PM
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            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, dearknarl <dearknarl@...> wrote:

            >
            > Thanks Trid and Harry,
            >
            > I already figured that the condensing power was plenty with that many
            > pipes, and the summated cross sectional area is equivalent to at least
            > a 20mm ID pipe which wouldn't flood, but I was actually concerned
            > about the surface tention of the liquid causing flooding or
            > spluttering becasue of the smaller diameter pipes. What is the typical
            > tube size that people use for shotgun/gattling gun condensers?
            >
            > Cheers,
            > knarl.

             

            Well I don't know what the typical size is that people use, but I can tell you the correct size...6mm OD tube.

            Reasons?  6mm tube is actually 6.35mm OD and 4.53mm ID with a 0.91mm wall thickness.  This 4.53mm inner diameter is the perfect size for liquid droplets to form and travel.  If you go much larger in bore size, you risk getting 'blow-by' of uncondensed vapours because the cooling effect reduces rapidly once you get past 2mm from the condensing surface ( the tube wall ).  Thus a 4.53mm bore is right for bigger (relatively) liquid droplets and almost perfect to eradicate blow-by. 

            There won't be (or shouldn't be) any vapour pressure forcing the liquid out of the tubes because as you have already discovered, the combined area of 21 tubes is quite large.

            Area of a circle is Pi times radius squared ( ð r² ).

            3.1416 x (½ x 4.53)² = 16 sq.mm

            By 21 tubes = 16 x 21 = 336 sq.mm

            That's about equal to a single 22mm OD tube with a 0.91 wall.

            Because the condenser is in a vertical or 45° downward configuration, gravity should take care of any surface tension of the liquid in the tube bores.  If in doubt, test it with a cup of water poured in the top end vapour side.  You'll see it readily runs through.

            Slainte!
            regards Harry

          • dearknarl
            Harry, The more I think about it, the less I think the tubes would get flooded. Even at 80ml per min condensate, that s less than 4ml per min for each tube,
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 5 11:08 PM
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              Harry,

              The more I think about it, the less I think the tubes would get
              flooded. Even at 80ml per min condensate, that's less than 4ml per min
              for each tube, and at a guess that's one or two drips per second,
              which would only be a trickle on the inside of the tubes - nothing
              that's going to stop rising vapor.

              Cheers,
              knarl.

              On 7/6/07, Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> , dearknarl <dearknarl@...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Thanks Trid and Harry,
              > >
              > > I already figured that the condensing power was plenty with that many
              > > pipes, and the summated cross sectional area is equivalent to at least
              > > a 20mm ID pipe which wouldn't flood, but I was actually concerned
              > > about the surface tention of the liquid causing flooding or
              > > spluttering becasue of the smaller diameter pipes. What is the typical
              > > tube size that people use for shotgun/gattling gun condensers?
              > >
              > > Cheers,
              > > knarl.
              >
              >
              >
              > Well I don't know what the typical size is that people use, but I can
              > tell you the correct size...6mm OD tube.
              >
              > Reasons? 6mm tube is actually 6.35mm OD and 4.53mm ID with a 0.91mm
              > wall thickness. This 4.53mm inner diameter is the perfect size for
              > liquid droplets to form and travel. If you go much larger in bore size,
              > you risk getting 'blow-by' of uncondensed vapours because the cooling
              > effect reduces rapidly once you get past 2mm from the condensing surface
              > ( the tube wall ). Thus a 4.53mm bore is right for bigger (relatively)
              > liquid droplets and almost perfect to eradicate blow-by.
              >
              > There won't be (or shouldn't be) any vapour pressure forcing the liquid
              > out of the tubes because as you have already discovered, the combined
              > area of 21 tubes is quite large.
              >
              > Area of a circle is Pi times radius squared ( ð r² ).
              >
              > 3.1416 x (½ x 4.53)² = 16 sq.mm
              >
              > By 21 tubes = 16 x 21 = 336 sq.mm
              >
              > That's about equal to a single 22mm OD tube with a 0.91 wall.
              >
              > Because the condenser is in a vertical or 45° downward configuration,
              > gravity should take care of any surface tension of the liquid in the
              > tube bores. If in doubt, test it with a cup of water poured in the top
              > end vapour side. You'll see it readily runs through.
              >
              > Slainte!
              > regards Harry
              >
              >
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