Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

a new toy for a new member...

Expand Messages
  • scmorgan2001
    Hi there, I know this would have been asked before hand, so pls accept my apologies in advance. I have been reading thru online materials and could not seem to
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 26, 2007
      Hi there,

      I know this would have been asked before hand, so pls accept my
      apologies in advance.

      I have been reading thru online materials and could not seem to get a
      clear picture to my questions.

      First, I am experienced brewer and making wash and fermenting it out
      is not an issue, i import beer yeast from and already have some
      distillers yeast on the radar.

      From brewing I am used to a narrow zone of saccrification between
      60-72 for carbohydrate conversion. Reading thru the notes online I was
      wondering what temp the ethanol starts to go to vapour and make its
      way up the tube. This seemed vague on the info online, so I am
      wodering if it is a case of letting the wash come up in temp and
      collecting what comes along until all the wash is evaporated.

      Also, my neighbour bought in our new toy of a reflux still approx 25mm
      stainless (its 316 - grrr) pipe approx 1m high. The notes online
      refered to packing but I could not gain a clearer picture of how much
      to add in and what height up the pipe to start and finish at.

      MAny thanks for the pending assistance,

      Scotty
    • Harry
      ... get a ... out ... was ... 25mm ... much ... Hi Scotty, Firstly, ethanol temps. The picture is not clear for a good reason...The point at which the wash
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 26, 2007
        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "scmorgan2001" <scotty@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi there,
        >
        > I know this would have been asked before hand, so pls accept my
        > apologies in advance.
        >
        > I have been reading thru online materials and could not seem to
        get a
        > clear picture to my questions.
        >
        > First, I am experienced brewer and making wash and fermenting it
        out
        > is not an issue, i import beer yeast from and already have some
        > distillers yeast on the radar.
        >
        > From brewing I am used to a narrow zone of saccrification between
        > 60-72 for carbohydrate conversion. Reading thru the notes online I
        was
        > wondering what temp the ethanol starts to go to vapour and make its
        > way up the tube. This seemed vague on the info online, so I am
        > wodering if it is a case of letting the wash come up in temp and
        > collecting what comes along until all the wash is evaporated.
        >
        > Also, my neighbour bought in our new toy of a reflux still approx
        25mm
        > stainless (its 316 - grrr) pipe approx 1m high. The notes online
        > refered to packing but I could not gain a clearer picture of how
        much
        > to add in and what height up the pipe to start and finish at.
        >
        > MAny thanks for the pending assistance,
        >
        > Scotty
        >


        Hi Scotty,

        Firstly, ethanol temps.

        The picture is not clear for a good reason...The point at which the
        wash begins to boil depends on the ratio of ethanol : water in the
        wash, and vapour pressure. The less ethanol you have in the boiler,
        the higher will be the temp at which it boils.

        From this it should be obvious that the BP of the boiler charge will
        gradually rise over the timespan of the distillation, as you remove
        the more volatile substance (ethanol).

        Scientifically, it is put thus...
        The boiling point of a liquid is that temperature at which the
        vapour pressure of the liquid is equal to the pressure of its
        surroundings. In our case those surroundings are atmospheric
        pressure, because we run stills open to atmosphere for safety
        reasons (no big BOOOM!).

        That takes care of the temps at the boiler end.
        Now, the situation at the top of the reflux column is somewhat
        different. If you're distilling correctly in a reflux setup, you'll
        get a graduation of temps along the length of the column. This will
        be hottest at bottom (least ethanol in mix), to coolest at the top
        (most ethanol in mix).

        Regardles of what's happening at the boiler end, the temp will
        remain fairly constant at the column top while you are removing
        product. It will begin to change (rise) when most of the ethanol is
        removed, and the water : etoh ratio begins to change. That's the
        start of tails.


        BP's (at sea level):

        100% ETOH = 78.3°C
        Azeotrope (95.6% ETOH)= 78.15°C
        Water = 100°C

        Azeotropes are wierd. This one boils at LESS that the pure
        substance (contrary to intuition).

        Mixtures of etoh & water will boil at some point in between the
        extremes, depend on ratio of substances in the mix.

        Forget about the 100% stuff. It's not possible to achieve with
        fractional distillation. The best we can do is Azeotrope ie 95.6%
        etoh & 4.4% water.

        So, anything that vaporizes and recondenses when the column-top
        (head) temp is lower than 78.15°C is rubbish. Burn it in your
        lawnmower.

        If you're the studious type, read this...
        http://tinyurl.com/yu6gro



        Secondly, that column.

        25mm tube is too small for effective packing & separation of
        substances, unless it is run VERRRY GENTLY (read not much heat
        input, about 300 watts). It will suffer from too high a vapour
        speed (death to good separation), and too slow a product recovery
        rate. It is in fact as you put it, a toy.

        A 50mm tube of the same height will give you approx. 3 times the
        column volume, much more suitable in terms of vapour speed, and
        packing, and separation efficiency, and product recovery rate.

        There's lots of info on Tony's site...
        http://homedistiller.org
        or just use the frame on the homepage of this group.


        HTH
        Slainte!
        regards Harry
        Moderator
      • Scott Morgan
        Ooops I made an error; Secondly, that column. 25mm tube is too small for effective packing & separation of substances, unless it is run VERRRY GENTLY (read not
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 1, 2007
          Ooops I made an error;

          Secondly, that column.

          25mm tube is too small for effective packing & separation of
          substances, unless it is run VERRRY GENTLY (read not much heat
          input, about 300 watts). It will suffer from too high a vapour
          speed (death to good separation), and too slow a product recovery
          rate. It is in fact as you put it, a toy.

          A 50mm tube of the same height will give you approx. 3 times the
          column volume, much more suitable in terms of vapor speed, and
          packing, and separation efficiency, and product recovery rate.

          *** the tube we have is 2" or 50mm. So I had a look at Tony's page and
          got lost still. Looking
          at your notes above 2" with approx 1 meter should be fine.

          Looking at Tony's calculation page, packing height is listed at 600mm
          and i need to run 1200w of power.

          Is that 60Omm of total packed space or is the packing to positioned from
          the bottom of apparatus when fitted on the still .... sorry
          i am unsure here.

          The info is vague on the density of packing, is it a suck it and see
          principal with SS Wool?? Also, the table shows 1200w of power but down
          below on the page it shows a diameter of power maximum of 3200w. I do
          like lots of power - which is best.

          I was actually going to use a 3 ring gas burner I use for brewing rather
          than a Heat Stick, nasty things they are especially on tripping my power.

          Sorry brewing is about absolutes and small windows of opportunity...

          Scotty
        • Harry
          ... and ... 600mm ... positioned from ... .............Why unsure? 600mm of packing is minimum. Use more if you wish. I certainly hope you don t mean to try
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 1, 2007
            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Scott Morgan <scotty@...>
            wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Ooops I made an error;
            >
            > *** the tube we have is 2" or 50mm. So I had a look at Tony's page
            and
            > got lost still. Looking
            > at your notes above 2" with approx 1 meter should be fine.


            .............Yes

            >
            > Looking at Tony's calculation page, packing height is listed at
            600mm
            > and i need to run 1200w of power.
            >
            > Is that 60Omm of total packed space or is the packing to
            positioned from
            > the bottom of apparatus when fitted on the still .... sorry
            > i am unsure here.
            >

            .............Why unsure? 600mm of packing is minimum. Use more if
            you wish. I certainly hope you don't mean to try positioning it
            600mm from the the bottom. Where's the logic in that? Commonsense
            is your best asset when still-building.



            > The info is vague on the density of packing, is it a suck it and
            see
            > principal with SS Wool??


            .............If it's packed correctly, you can blow through the tube
            with just a very little of resistance. If resistance is high,
            you've packed too tight. If none at all, it's too loose. Also,
            you'll get far better results if the packing is copper mesh (pure
            copper, not coated plastic). Read about it and what it does for
            quality product.


            Also, the table shows 1200w of power but down
            > below on the page it shows a diameter of power maximum of 3200w. I
            do
            > like lots of power - which is best.

            ...........Use whatever power you like to bring it to the boil, then
            cut it back to 1200w. All that does is reduce the boilup time. But
            for your rig specs, 1200w is the desired power input once
            distillation proper begins (at boil). More than that, your product
            will suffer (taste like crap). Again, read about this.

            >
            > I was actually going to use a 3 ring gas burner I use for brewing
            rather
            > than a Heat Stick, nasty things they are especially on tripping my
            power.
            >
            > Sorry brewing is about absolutes and small windows of
            opportunity...
            >


            .........Distilling has more latitude. Distilling is about
            commonsense and attention to detail.


            > Scotty
            >


            Slainte!
            regards Harry
          • gff_stwrt
            ... Hi, Scotty, hi folks, Scotty, the information at the bottom of your message was perhaps more than you meant to broadcast, given the nature of our hobby! By
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 1, 2007
              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Scott Morgan <scotty@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >Big, big snip
              >
              >
              > Scotty
              >
              Hi, Scotty, hi folks,

              Scotty, the information at the bottom of your message was perhaps
              more than you meant to broadcast, given the nature of our hobby!

              By the way, I live not all that far to the west of you.

              Regards,

              The Baker
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.