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Re: Pot still- high %-age product?

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  • rocky_creek1
    A hydrometer is only accurate at 20C (60F) you must measure it at that temp or use a chart to correct for it. Warm alcohol will measure high. Cold alcohol will
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 6, 2006
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      A hydrometer is only accurate at 20C (60F) you must measure it at that
      temp or use a chart to correct for it. Warm alcohol will measure high.
      Cold alcohol will measure low.
    • Link D'Antoni
      You meant to say 68F ... :-) Link ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 6, 2006
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        You meant to say '68F'... :-)

        Link

        --- rocky_creek1 <rocky_creek@...> wrote:

        > A hydrometer is only accurate at 20C (60F) you must
        > measure it at that
        > temp or use a chart to correct for it. Warm alcohol
        > will measure high.
        > Cold alcohol will measure low.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


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      • dcrawford@clarityconnect.com
        ... Most are calibrated at 60F, or about 16C. DC
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 6, 2006
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          On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 06:25:54 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

          >You meant to say '68F'... :-)
          >

          Most are calibrated at 60F, or about 16C.

          DC
        • Link D'Antoni
          Let s see... 3.5 gal = 13,265 ml x 10% (Alc) = 1, 326 ml of 200 proof (100%) alcohol IN the wash. If you are able to claim 90% of that yields 1,193 ml of 200
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 6, 2006
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            Let's see...
            3.5 gal = 13,265 ml x 10% (Alc) = 1, 326 ml of 200
            proof (100%) alcohol IN the wash.
            If you are able to claim 90% of that yields 1,193 ml
            of 200 proof. You stated that your avg collection is
            44%. This means that you probably collected approx
            2720 ml total.
            Next observation is for 6 hrs run = approx 8
            ml/minute. That's a little slow for a stripping run.
            I have two alembics pots, one 24" tower (run pot)
            with leibig condenser. They all run differently. It
            took a few runs of each to fine tune.

            I always calculate the total alcohol volume in a wash
            to keep track of where i am in the process. I
            calculate every cut how much alcohol I've pulled off
            so far, how much is still in the wash to pull, etc.

            Link

            --- "marquee.moon" <marquee.moon@...> wrote:

            > I have recently distilled for the first time using a
            > pot still, and
            > I'm confused by the %ABV I am getting -to high?
            >
            > The still is: 3.5 gallon SS stockpot, 28mm x 450mm
            > Cu column, de-
            > leaded brass elbow leading to 28mm x 500mm Cu
            > liebigs condenser;
            > column & pot insulated. The condenser sits at around
            > 30 degrees below
            > horizontal. The heat is via a small gas ring, fully
            > open for heat up,
            > turned right down to almost no flame for
            > distillation
            > My wash was 10% sugar base. I was collecting `low
            > wines'. The
            > objective was to get a feel for how the still works
            > before I run
            > anything decent through it.
            >
            > I took careful measurements using a thermometer at
            > the head of the
            > column and hydrometer on the product.
            > I recorded that my first half litre came over
            > between 80-85
            > centigrade, and had an alcohol concentration of 70%.
            > I finished my
            > run at 95centigrade, at which point the discharge
            > was 19% ABV. In the
            > collection vessel, the cumulative percentage at the
            > end of the run
            > was 44%. The entire distillation took 6 hours.
            >
            > Using Tony Acklands Pot still calculations, my
            > observations don't
            > stack up. According to his "pot still purity"
            > calculator, a 10% wash
            > comes over at 49% at 93c and drops to 2% at 99.9c,
            > with the final
            > product yielding 23 %
            > I've played around with the different parameters,
            > and the only way I
            > can approach my results using his model is to
            > increase the initial
            > wash strength to around 22%. I definitely didn't
            > make a high ABV
            > wash.
            >
            > I have considered the possibility that my alcohol
            > hydrometer is
            > reading inaccurately, but the temperatures roughly
            > match up with the %
            > ABV (70% at 85 centigrade)
            > The other thing I've considered is that my 10% wash
            > boils at 93
            > centigrade in the pot, then between the pot and the
            > condenser there's
            > about 1.5 effective plates, resulting in a small
            > amount of increased
            > purity, with a corresponding alteration in head
            > temperature.
            >
            > So what's happening? , and how can I take this
            > forward into my
            > understanding of the still for future runs?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


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          • Link D'Antoni
            Alcohol is corrected to 68F (20c) as refered in Harry s site. See Articles Alcoholometer Correction Table by Geoff Redman
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 6, 2006
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              Alcohol is corrected to 68F (20c) as refered in
              Harry's site. See 'Articles' Alcoholometer Correction
              Table by Geoff Redman
              http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Listings2.htm#Books%20Listings
              And ASTM standards.

              Link

              --- dcrawford@... wrote:

              > On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 06:25:54 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:
              >
              > >You meant to say '68F'... :-)
              > >
              >
              > Most are calibrated at 60F, or about 16C.
              >
              > DC
              >
              >


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            • dcrawford@clarityconnect.com
              ... The statement was: A hydrometer is only accurate at 20C (60F) you must measure it at that temp or use a chart to correct for it. Warm alcohol will
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 6, 2006
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                On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 07:21:08 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

                >Alcohol is corrected to 68F (20c) as refered in
                >Harry's site. See 'Articles' Alcoholometer Correction
                >Table by Geoff Redman
                >http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Listings2.htm#Books%20Listings
                > And ASTM standards.
                >
                >Link

                The statement was:
                <<snip>>
                A hydrometer is only accurate at 20C (60F) you must measure it at that
                temp or use a chart to correct for it. Warm alcohol will measure high.
                Cold alcohol will measure low.
                <<snip>>

                As I understand it, a hydrometer is only accurate at the temperature
                at which it was calibrated, and not all are calibrated at 20C(68F).
                Used at another temperature, you have to correct your readings, thus
                the need for a correction table. And then you should 'normalize' your
                readings to 20C(68F) for consistancy.

                Comment welcome, Harry. :-)

                DC
              • Link D'Antoni
                DC, The alcohol (proof) hydrometer is, indeed, calibrated at 68 F( 20C). Reading at another temps are not inaccurate, just considered an observed reading at
                Message 7 of 14 , Oct 6, 2006
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                  DC,

                  The alcohol (proof) hydrometer is, indeed, calibrated
                  at 68 F( 20C). Reading at another temps are not
                  inaccurate, just considered an 'observed' reading at
                  observed temp which needs to be converted to 'as if'
                  it were 68F.
                  Specific Gravity is corrected to 60F (20c) for net
                  reading.

                  Link


                  --- dcrawford@... wrote:

                  > On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 07:21:08 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:
                  >
                  > >Alcohol is corrected to 68F (20c) as refered in
                  > >Harry's site. See 'Articles' Alcoholometer
                  > Correction
                  > >Table by Geoff Redman
                  >
                  >http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Listings2.htm#Books%20Listings
                  > > And ASTM standards.
                  > >
                  > >Link
                  >
                  > The statement was:
                  > <<snip>>
                  > A hydrometer is only accurate at 20C (60F) you must
                  > measure it at that
                  > temp or use a chart to correct for it. Warm alcohol
                  > will measure high.
                  > Cold alcohol will measure low.
                  > <<snip>>
                  >
                  > As I understand it, a hydrometer is only accurate at
                  > the temperature
                  > at which it was calibrated, and not all are
                  > calibrated at 20C(68F).
                  > Used at another temperature, you have to correct
                  > your readings, thus
                  > the need for a correction table. And then you should
                  > 'normalize' your
                  > readings to 20C(68F) for consistancy.
                  >
                  > Comment welcome, Harry. :-)
                  >
                  > DC
                  >
                  >


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                • Link D'Antoni
                  Oops.. my faw-paw 60F = 15.6C Link ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                  Message 8 of 14 , Oct 6, 2006
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                    Oops.. my faw-paw

                    60F = 15.6C

                    Link


                    --- Link D'Antoni <link2d@...> wrote:

                    > DC,
                    >
                    > The alcohol (proof) hydrometer is, indeed,
                    > calibrated
                    > at 68 F( 20C). Reading at another temps are not
                    > inaccurate, just considered an 'observed' reading at
                    > observed temp which needs to be converted to 'as if'
                    > it were 68F.
                    > Specific Gravity is corrected to 60F (20c) for net
                    > reading.
                    >
                    > Link
                    >
                    >
                    > --- dcrawford@... wrote:
                    >
                    > > On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 07:21:08 -0700 (PDT), you
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > >Alcohol is corrected to 68F (20c) as refered in
                    > > >Harry's site. See 'Articles' Alcoholometer
                    > > Correction
                    > > >Table by Geoff Redman
                    > >
                    >
                    >http://distillers.tastylime.net/library/Listings2.htm#Books%20Listings
                    > > > And ASTM standards.
                    > > >
                    > > >Link
                    > >
                    > > The statement was:
                    > > <<snip>>
                    > > A hydrometer is only accurate at 20C (60F) you
                    > must
                    > > measure it at that
                    > > temp or use a chart to correct for it. Warm
                    > alcohol
                    > > will measure high.
                    > > Cold alcohol will measure low.
                    > > <<snip>>
                    > >
                    > > As I understand it, a hydrometer is only accurate
                    > at
                    > > the temperature
                    > > at which it was calibrated, and not all are
                    > > calibrated at 20C(68F).
                    > > Used at another temperature, you have to correct
                    > > your readings, thus
                    > > the need for a correction table. And then you
                    > should
                    > > 'normalize' your
                    > > readings to 20C(68F) for consistancy.
                    > >
                    > > Comment welcome, Harry. :-)
                    > >
                    > > DC
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                    > protection around
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                    >


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                  • Harry
                    ... Link, I m afraid DC is correct. Not all alcoholometers are calibrated at the same base temperature. In fact the one I use is calibrated at 15 degC. The
                    Message 9 of 14 , Oct 6, 2006
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                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Link D'Antoni <link2d@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > DC,
                      >
                      > The alcohol (proof) hydrometer is, indeed, calibrated
                      > at 68 F( 20C). Reading at another temps are not
                      > inaccurate, just considered an 'observed' reading at
                      > observed temp which needs to be converted to 'as if'
                      > it were 68F.
                      > Specific Gravity is corrected to 60F (20c) for net
                      > reading.
                      >
                      > Link



                      Link,
                      I'm afraid DC is correct. Not all alcoholometers are calibrated at
                      the same base temperature. In fact the one I use is calibrated at
                      15 degC.

                      The charts on my site by Geoff were formulated for a alcoholometer
                      calibrated at 20 degC. I put them up , not for accuracy or use with
                      all alcoholometers, but rather to show HOW a set of charts is
                      formulated and derived.

                      In the first page of that article, Geoff shows how he arrived at a
                      mathematical formula to produce charts. He chose a 20 degC
                      alcoholometer as the test instrument to prove his findings, having
                      compared them to published charts. Anyone can use the same
                      formula/methods and a spreadsheet to make charts for an instrument
                      that's got a different baseline. This could be very handy for
                      someone who has lost/misplaced the chart that came with their
                      instrument, as indeed we've had several queries about in posts over
                      the years.

                      Hope this clears it up.


                      Slainte!
                      regards Harry
                    • Larry
                      ... The point that seems to be getting missed is that 60F does NOT convert to 20C. If you have 60F, it converts to 15.5C 20C converts to 68F, not 60F.
                      Message 10 of 14 , Oct 6, 2006
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                        At 11:53 AM 10/06/2006, you wrote:

                        >Specific Gravity is corrected to 60F (20c) for net reading.


                        The point that seems to be getting missed is that 60F does NOT convert to 20C.

                        If you have 60F, it converts to 15.5C

                        20C converts to 68F, not 60F.
                      • Link D'Antoni
                        Harry and DC I stand corrected! All of the alcoholometer that i have encountered have been calibrated to 68 F (20c). The ASTM Standards that I ve subscribed to
                        Message 11 of 14 , Oct 6, 2006
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                          Harry and DC I stand corrected!

                          All of the alcoholometer that i have encountered have
                          been calibrated to 68 F (20c). The ASTM Standards that
                          I've subscribed to have indicated the same. I made an
                          assumption that all were calibrated to 68F.

                          Please accept my appology DC. I do not want to
                          mislead.

                          Thanks for the clarification Harry.

                          Link



                          --- Harry <gnikomson2000@...> wrote:

                          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Link D'Antoni
                          > <link2d@...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > DC,
                          > >
                          > > The alcohol (proof) hydrometer is, indeed,
                          > calibrated
                          > > at 68 F( 20C). Reading at another temps are not
                          > > inaccurate, just considered an 'observed' reading
                          > at
                          > > observed temp which needs to be converted to 'as
                          > if'
                          > > it were 68F.
                          > > Specific Gravity is corrected to 60F (20c) for
                          > net
                          > > reading.
                          > >
                          > > Link
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Link,
                          > I'm afraid DC is correct. Not all alcoholometers
                          > are calibrated at
                          > the same base temperature. In fact the one I use is
                          > calibrated at
                          > 15 degC.
                          >
                          > The charts on my site by Geoff were formulated for a
                          > alcoholometer
                          > calibrated at 20 degC. I put them up , not for
                          > accuracy or use with
                          > all alcoholometers, but rather to show HOW a set of
                          > charts is
                          > formulated and derived.
                          >
                          > In the first page of that article, Geoff shows how
                          > he arrived at a
                          > mathematical formula to produce charts. He chose a
                          > 20 degC
                          > alcoholometer as the test instrument to prove his
                          > findings, having
                          > compared them to published charts. Anyone can use
                          > the same
                          > formula/methods and a spreadsheet to make charts for
                          > an instrument
                          > that's got a different baseline. This could be very
                          > handy for
                          > someone who has lost/misplaced the chart that came
                          > with their
                          > instrument, as indeed we've had several queries
                          > about in posts over
                          > the years.
                          >
                          > Hope this clears it up.
                          >
                          >
                          > Slainte!
                          > regards Harry
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


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                        • marquee.moon
                          Thanks for your responses. I forgot about the temperature adjustment- I ll remember that in future. I distil outside in northern England, and collect direct
                          Message 12 of 14 , Oct 9, 2006
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                            Thanks for your responses.

                            I forgot about the temperature adjustment- I'll remember that in
                            future. I distil outside in northern England, and collect direct into
                            my hydrometer jar. At the speed I was collecting and with the outdoor
                            temperatures we have (today its 10 centigrade), by the time I have
                            collected 150ml, the spirit is quite cool anyhow. Certainly, the final
                            reading of 44% was taken on cool spirit.
                            But for the sake of a temperature reading and adjustment, I should make
                            sure.

                            I like the idea of keeping track of the theoretical volume I should
                            have collected- thanks for that hint.

                            I appreciate that my speed was a little slow- I'm still learning and
                            I'd rather take it easy, get to know my still and get things right.
                            However, next time I should be able to increase the heat slightly.

                            Thanks for all your help.
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