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Re: [new_distillers] Re: A zillion more questions!

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  • Sam Thomas
    Yeah, I read that. I was going to post my magic process of controlling boiler temperature, but I don t think these noobs are ready for that knowledge quite
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 25, 2006
      Yeah, I read that. I was going to post my magic process of controlling boiler temperature, but I don't think these noobs are ready for that knowledge quite yet.



      Lindsay Williams <lindsay.nz@...> wrote: One for you, Sam!!!

      Read the first para from the previous post very carefully.

      Indeed, you are missing something very basic. (To let you in on the
      joke, we had to beat Sam around a bit (actually, quite a lot!!) to get
      him away from the differential boiling "theory" of distillation! At
      the serious risk of repetition, believe us when we say a liquid, even
      one with several alcohols in it, will only ever have ONE boiling
      point. If you heat it below this point, how will you get vapour coming
      off it? It must boil to give off vapour in any appreciable quantities.

      Go to www.homedistiller.org/theory and read Mike Nixon's treatise on
      distillation theory.

      Cheers,
      Lindsay.

      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Eyre" <meyre@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > >To my knowledge, Bob the Borg is the only one here who has
      > >successfully controled boiler temp. (Sorry, Sam, couldn't resist).
      > >Actually, the temp of the wash is determined by the alchohol content
      > >of the wash. The higher the alchohol content, the lower the boiling
      > >point. As the more and more of the alchohol evaporates, the temp of
      > >the wash goes up. Adding more heat, however, does not raise the
      > >temp, but does increase the boiling rate. Each still has it's own
      > >level of performance/verses vapor rate.
      >


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    • morganfield1
      ... about ... point and ... Don t feel lonely, boiling point of the wash seems to be the most difficult aspect of this hobby for newcomers to get their head
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 26, 2006
        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Eyre" <meyre@...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        >>
        > Hmmm...Ok, I'm a little mystified by that. I was thinking
        about
        > an electric heater element hooked to a controller with a high
        point and
        > a low point setting.

        Don't feel lonely, boiling point of the wash seems to be the most
        difficult aspect of this hobby for newcomers to get their head
        around.

        then what would happen
        > if you put a huge direct fire or element into service and just
        flashed
        > the thing right up to 212+ degrees?
        Wouldn't' you get evap of everything
        > in the pot, including what you wanted to distill as well as the
        stuff
        > you *didn't* want to distill?

        That's exactly what would happen, and that's what some do, put
        3ooowatts to her all the way thru and let the reflux column do the
        seperation (which happens anyway).

        Doesn't' it make more sense to slowly ramp
        > temp up, collecting only that which you want to collect in the
        lower
        > evaporation realm before you get to distilling just water at neat
        > boiling temps?

        That's what most beginners assume, that if you raise the temp of the
        wash up to 176f, only the etoh will evaporate, and the water will
        stay behind. The problem with this is, the alchohol and water form a
        MIXTURE, not a solution. Now, this mixture is a special case, in
        that it is not a chemical bond, so chemical means are not neccesary
        to break up the mixture. All that is needed is heat, and a physical
        space (packing column) for this seperation to occur. Now, let's go
        back a bit. Water boils at 212f, it takes x amount of heat to boil x
        amount of water in x amount of time. Once the water reaches 212,
        what happens when we apply more heat, does the temp go up? No. Does
        the vapor rate go up, yes. Ethanol boils at 172f (I'm not sure of
        this exact temp, but it doesn't matter for this dicussion). Bring it
        up to bp, it boils. Add more heat, the temp stays the same, but it
        boils more vigorously (vapor rate). Mix etoh and water together, you
        get a liquid (wash) with a bp somewhere (depending on the etoh%)
        somewhere between 172 and 212. If you try to hold temporature of the
        wash at 172, it will never boil, and no vapor will be produced. This
        is where the "Reflux column" does it's magic. Read "reflux theory"
        in the "homedistiller" site for more on this.
        >
        > As an aside, I do temp steps in beer all the time and temp is
        > fairly easy to control with a burner and a watchful eye.. why do
        you say
        > that's only one fellow has successfully controlled the boiler
        temp? Am I
        > missing something basic here? Seriously! :-)

        The alchohol % controls the bp. When we mash grains, we're not
        bringing the mash up to a boil!
        >
        >
        >
        > Roger on the 6 row for the increased enzymes and such. But
        wow,
        > 80% corn??? I had no idea you could convert that much starch with
        such a
        > small percent of barley. I'd love to find some more info on Whisky
        > washes and grain bills for this stuff.. I've never worked with corn
        > before, so it's sorta news to me.
        >
        There is much info on this in the "Flavorings" section of
        homedistiller.
        >
        >>
        > Is this a common thing for home distillers, esp. those that
        are
        > looking at making whiskey type products? You said the A.C. takes
        out
        > "all flavor"... err. That seems like a bad thing, especially since
        I
        > went through all the trouble to make a wash from all grain with
        the corn
        > and barley and stuff, and now I'm going to remove the flavor from
        it?
        > Doesn't seem to make sense... with a whiskey, aren't we looking
        for the
        > flavor and character of the grains to still be in there, as
        opposed to a
        > vodka or something run through a reflux still that has no flavor
        really
        > left in it?
        >
        Remember when I said,"complex questions, more than one answere",
        nowhere does this apply more than here. There is "filtering" and
        there is "aging". Again, "Flavoring" section of, well, you know
        where. Yes, if your making a whole grain wash (beer, at this point)
        to make a flavored spirit, you don't want to "filter" the hooch (
        called "White Dog"). Whiskey gets some of it's flavor from the very
        cogeners and esters that get filtered out of vodka.
        >
        >
        > I thought I mentioned that. :-) I read homedistiller
        from "cover
        > to cover" and am now looking for more! That other site you
        mentioned is
        > a good help as well. That's what I was after! Thanks!
        >
        Yes, I know you mentioned that, It's just that alot of the questions
        you ask are covered in there.

        > >All! Charred American Oak. Maple will work, but has a different
        > >taste, I use maple.
        >
        > Do you char your own, or buy it somewhere? I'm interested in
        > doing everything myself that I can. Got any ideas on the
        > best/easiest/most effective way to do that? Links, maybe?
        >

        I believe you have to char your own so you know what you are
        getting, especially charcoal. You don't want to age your hooch on
        charcoal made from, let's say, hickory, or red oak, as these have
        bitter tannons at the carmeral layer. I make my charcoal on the
        propane grill (outside, deffinetly). There's a difference between
        charcoal, and "charring". Again, "Flavoring".
        I will have to ask Harry to help me out again here. There is a
        website for "The Malting Advocate" that has three wonderful articles
        on the use of charcoal and copper, but since my old computer bit it,
        I lost my bookmarks, though you could probably ask "uncle google".
        > > HTH
        Tip one, Morgan
        >
      • morganfield1
        Sam, Keeper of the Magic Knowledge, Protector of the Holy of Holies. I always thought it was Frodo! ... controlling boiler temperature, but I don t think these
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 26, 2006
          Sam, Keeper of the Magic Knowledge, Protector of the Holy of Holies.
          I always thought it was Frodo!

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Sam Thomas <bob_the_borg@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Yeah, I read that. I was going to post my magic process of
          controlling boiler temperature, but I don't think these noobs are
          ready for that knowledge quite yet.
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Gregory Bloom
          Oh, c mon - ain t nothing magic about it. You just have to use a still that is closed to the atmosphere so you can regulate the pressure. Higher pressure =
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 26, 2006
            Oh, c'mon - ain't nothing magic about it. You just have to use a still that is closed to the atmosphere so you can regulate the pressure. Higher pressure = higher temperature. Or you can do vacuum distillation and get higher than 95% EtOH at a much lower boiler temp.


            Sam Thomas <bob_the_borg@...> wrote:

            Yeah, I read that. I was going to post my magic process of controlling boiler temperature, but I don't think these noobs are ready for that knowledge quite yet.



            Lindsay Williams <lindsay.nz@...> wrote: One for you, Sam!!!

            Read the first para from the previous post very carefully.

            Indeed, you are missing something very basic. (To let you in on the
            joke, we had to beat Sam around a bit (actually, quite a lot!!) to get
            him away from the differential boiling "theory" of distillation! At
            the serious risk of repetition, believe us when we say a liquid, even
            one with several alcohols in it, will only ever have ONE boiling
            point. If you heat it below this point, how will you get vapour coming
            off it? It must boil to give off vapour in any appreciable quantities.

            Go to www.homedistiller.org/theory and read Mike Nixon's treatise on
            distillation theory.

            Cheers,
            Lindsay.

            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Eyre" <meyre@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > >To my knowledge, Bob the Borg is the only one here who has
            > >successfully controled boiler temp. (Sorry, Sam, couldn't resist).
            > >Actually, the temp of the wash is determined by the alchohol content
            > >of the wash. The higher the alchohol content, the lower the boiling
            > >point. As the more and more of the alchohol evaporates, the temp of
            > >the wash goes up. Adding more heat, however, does not raise the
            > >temp, but does increase the boiling rate. Each still has it's own
            > >level of performance/verses vapor rate.
            >


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            FAQ and other information available at http://homedistiller.org





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          • Gregory Bloom
            Actually, you can distill quite effectively at temperatures lower than boiling point. Each component of the solution has a vapor pressure, even below boiling.
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 26, 2006
              Actually, you can distill quite effectively at temperatures lower than boiling point. Each component of the solution has a vapor pressure, even below boiling. The "Amazing Still" works by heating the wash to increase the vapor pressure of the more volatile components without actually taking the wash up to boiling. Of course, the "Amazing Still" takes perhaps a full day to do a run, but it does work.

              I once did an experiment where I enclosed an aquarium aerator in a tupperware container and ran a sealed cycle of CO2 through the wash and through a condensing jug in my freezer. It was slow, but it did work. (I was hoping that by removing the alcohol as it formed in the wash, I might keep the yeast continuously fermenting by adding sugar every once in a while. By continuously cycling the CO2, I maintained anaerobic fermentation. Bottom line - It worked, kinda, but was too slow and not worth the trouble).


              Lindsay Williams <lindsay.nz@...> wrote:

              One for you, Sam!!!

              Read the first para from the previous post very carefully.

              Indeed, you are missing something very basic. (To let you in on the
              joke, we had to beat Sam around a bit (actually, quite a lot!!) to get
              him away from the differential boiling "theory" of distillation! At
              the serious risk of repetition, believe us when we say a liquid, even
              one with several alcohols in it, will only ever have ONE boiling
              point. If you heat it below this point, how will you get vapour coming
              off it? It must boil to give off vapour in any appreciable quantities.

              Go to www.homedistiller.org/theory and read Mike Nixon's treatise on
              distillation theory.

              Cheers,
              Lindsay.

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Eyre" <meyre@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > >To my knowledge, Bob the Borg is the only one here who has
              > >successfully controled boiler temp. (Sorry, Sam, couldn't resist).
              > >Actually, the temp of the wash is determined by the alchohol content
              > >of the wash. The higher the alchohol content, the lower the boiling
              > >point. As the more and more of the alchohol evaporates, the temp of
              > >the wash goes up. Adding more heat, however, does not raise the
              > >temp, but does increase the boiling rate. Each still has it's own
              > >level of performance/verses vapor rate.
              >
              > Hmmm...Ok, I'm a little mystified by that. I was thinking about
              > an electric heater element hooked to a controller with a high point and
              > a low point setting. I was going to set the low poit for 175 and the
              > high to 180 or thereabout and run it till the thing didn't run anymore,
              > and then jack the temp up a bit more to go to the next stage. If you're
              > saying the evap occurs whenever it occurs because the evap is lower for
              > a higher alcohol content (which I totally get!), then what would happen
              > if you put a huge direct fire or element into service and just flashed
              > the thing right up to 212+ degrees? Wouldn't' you get evap of everything
              > in the pot, including what you wanted to distill as well as the stuff
              > you *didn't* want to distill? Doesn't' it make more sense to slowly ramp
              > temp up, collecting only that which you want to collect in the lower
              > evaporation realm before you get to distilling just water at neat
              > boiling temps?
              >
              > As an aside, I do temp steps in beer all the time and temp is
              > fairly easy to control with a burner and a watchful eye.. why do you say
              > that's only one fellow has successfully controlled the boiler temp? Am I
              > missing something basic here? Seriously! :-)
              >






              New Distillers group archives are at http://archive.nnytech.net/
              FAQ and other information available at http://homedistiller.org





              SPONSORED LINKS
              Food and drink Home distilling Culture Culture club Organizational culture Distillers

              ---------------------------------
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              Visit your group "new_distillers" on the web.

              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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            • sonum norbu
              ;)) ... From: morganfield1 To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [new_distillers] Re: A zillion more questions! Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 15:15:09 -0000
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 26, 2006
                ;))

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "morganfield1"
                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [new_distillers] Re: A zillion more questions!
                Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 15:15:09 -0000

                Sam, Keeper of the Magic Knowledge, Protector of the Holy of Holies.
                I always thought it was Frodo!

                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Sam Thomas <bob_the_borg@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Yeah, I read that. I was going to post my magic process of
                controlling boiler temperature, but I don't think these noobs are
                ready for that knowledge quite yet.
                >
                >
                >
                >





                New Distillers group archives are at http://archive.nnytech.net/
                FAQ and other information available at http://homedistiller.org





                SPONSORED LINKS
                Food and drink Home distilling Culture
                Culture club Organizational culture Distillers

                ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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                * Visit your group "new_distillers" on the web.

                * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                new_distillers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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              • Lindsay Williams
                Indeed, but perhaps you overlooked my appreciable quantities. I thought we were talking about reflux stilling which really doesn t work that well with room
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 1, 2006
                  Indeed, but perhaps you overlooked my "appreciable" quantities. I
                  thought we were talking about reflux stilling which really doesn't
                  work that well with room temp evaporation rates.

                  Cheers,
                  Lindsay.

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Gregory Bloom <gjbloom@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Actually, you can distill quite effectively at temperatures lower
                  than boiling point. Each component of the solution has a vapor
                  pressure, even below boiling. The "Amazing Still" works by heating
                  the wash to increase the vapor pressure of the more volatile
                  components without actually taking the wash up to boiling. Of course,
                  the "Amazing Still" takes perhaps a full day to do a run, but it does
                  work.
                  >
                  > I once did an experiment where I enclosed an aquarium aerator in a
                  tupperware container and ran a sealed cycle of CO2 through the wash
                  and through a condensing jug in my freezer. It was slow, but it did
                  work. (I was hoping that by removing the alcohol as it formed in the
                  wash, I might keep the yeast continuously fermenting by adding sugar
                  every once in a while. By continuously cycling the CO2, I maintained
                  anaerobic fermentation. Bottom line - It worked, kinda, but was too
                  slow and not worth the trouble).
                  >
                  >
                  > Lindsay Williams <lindsay.nz@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > One for you, Sam!!!
                  >
                  > Read the first para from the previous post very carefully.
                  >
                  > Indeed, you are missing something very basic. (To let you in on the
                  > joke, we had to beat Sam around a bit (actually, quite a lot!!) to get
                  > him away from the differential boiling "theory" of distillation! At
                  > the serious risk of repetition, believe us when we say a liquid, even
                  > one with several alcohols in it, will only ever have ONE boiling
                  > point. If you heat it below this point, how will you get vapour coming
                  > off it? It must boil to give off vapour in any appreciable quantities.
                  >
                  > Go to www.homedistiller.org/theory and read Mike Nixon's treatise on
                  > distillation theory.
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  > Lindsay.
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Eyre" <meyre@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >To my knowledge, Bob the Borg is the only one here who has
                  > > >successfully controled boiler temp. (Sorry, Sam, couldn't resist).
                  > > >Actually, the temp of the wash is determined by the alchohol
                  content
                  > > >of the wash. The higher the alchohol content, the lower the boiling
                  > > >point. As the more and more of the alchohol evaporates, the temp of
                  > > >the wash goes up. Adding more heat, however, does not raise the
                  > > >temp, but does increase the boiling rate. Each still has it's own
                  > > >level of performance/verses vapor rate.
                  > >
                  > > Hmmm...Ok, I'm a little mystified by that. I was thinking about
                  > > an electric heater element hooked to a controller with a high
                  point and
                  > > a low point setting. I was going to set the low poit for 175 and the
                  > > high to 180 or thereabout and run it till the thing didn't run
                  anymore,
                  > > and then jack the temp up a bit more to go to the next stage. If
                  you're
                  > > saying the evap occurs whenever it occurs because the evap is
                  lower for
                  > > a higher alcohol content (which I totally get!), then what would
                  happen
                  > > if you put a huge direct fire or element into service and just
                  flashed
                  > > the thing right up to 212+ degrees? Wouldn't' you get evap of
                  everything
                  > > in the pot, including what you wanted to distill as well as the stuff
                  > > you *didn't* want to distill? Doesn't' it make more sense to
                  slowly ramp
                  > > temp up, collecting only that which you want to collect in the lower
                  > > evaporation realm before you get to distilling just water at neat
                  > > boiling temps?
                  > >
                  > > As an aside, I do temp steps in beer all the time and temp is
                  > > fairly easy to control with a burner and a watchful eye.. why do
                  you say
                  > > that's only one fellow has successfully controlled the boiler
                  temp? Am I
                  > > missing something basic here? Seriously! :-)
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > New Distillers group archives are at http://archive.nnytech.net/
                  > FAQ and other information available at http://homedistiller.org
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > SPONSORED LINKS
                  > Food and drink
                  Home distilling
                  Culture
                  Culture club
                  Organizational culture
                  Distillers

                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  >
                  >
                  > Visit your group "new_distillers" on the web.
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > new_distillers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >
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