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New still, first run

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  • Mark
    Hi Everyone, Ive recently built a still stillmaker I think. You can see the pics in the photo section under AW , the only difference is that I decided to
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 24, 2005
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      Hi Everyone,

      Ive recently built a still 'stillmaker' I think. You can see the
      pics in the photo section under 'AW', the only difference is that
      I decided to get the 2400watt urn instead of the 3000watt model so
      I didnt have to install a 15amp power point.

      Ive tested it with water and the max temp at the top of the column
      would not get above 97c, is it critical to be able to get to 100c?
      I also fixed a leak. The water that was distilled was clear with
      little or no strange smells or flavours.

      So here is what I did...
      I started the mash with 50 litres of water, 15kg of white sugar
      and 2 packs of turbo24. I had trouble keeping the temp down it stayed
      at about 28-30 degrees celsius and took about 3 days to stop
      fermenting with a finished alc of about 10%, how can I increase the
      alc %? I thought next time I might go with turbo48 or alcotech8, any
      suggestions?

      Then today I dumped 30 litres into my 40 litre urn and fired it up.
      The top of the column sat at 22c for about half an hour then rocketed
      to 76.5c in about 2 minutes so I fired up the cooling flow to the
      condenser, I used a plastic bin with a water pump and 2 bags of ice,
      The water in the bin got so hot I could hardly put my hand in.

      The distillate flowed quite quickly, a stream rather than
      drips. The temp was stable for maybe 2 hours then slowly climbed to
      90ish over another hour. I understand that if the distillate comes
      out too fast the purity will be lower, is this true and if so how
      could I reduce the flow?

      I captured the distillate into 15 containers to try and smell the
      changes abit like a spectrum. The first 3 containers approx. 300ml
      total smelt like metholated spirits so was heads and put aside,
      the last 3 containers smelt alot like the mash so was tails and also
      put aside approx. 500-750ml. I ended up with about 5 litres of
      product. I tested it with the trusty alcometer and its about 85%.
      Do you have any suggestions on how this might be increased to 90%
      or over?

      I put the heads and tails back into the fermenter with the left over
      15 litres of mash and will put that through tomorrow to try and
      squeeze the last of the ethenol out.

      All in all I think it went well and I now have a new hobby.

      I will be soaking some carbon in the product for maybe a week before
      making some berry liquer, coffee liquer and perhaps some butterscotch
      snapps using smashed butterscotch lollies.

      So what do you all think about my first run? Any comments and
      suggestions will help me get closer to perfection.

      Thanks in advance
      Mark
      AlexandrianWitch
    • Dean Thomas
      Hi Mark, Congrats sounds like a pretty successful first run and a nice looking still the only thing I don t like about it is the cooling pipes running through
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 24, 2005
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        Hi Mark,

        Congrats sounds like a pretty successful first run and a nice looking
        still the only thing I don't like about it is the cooling pipes running
        through the column they only serve to disrupt the column equilibrium. I
        personally would replace them with a reflux condenser at the top of the
        column but that's just me it will work fine without one.
        Other answers interspersed.
        Mark wrote:

        >Hi Everyone,
        >
        >Ive recently built a still 'stillmaker' I think. You can see the
        >pics in the photo section under 'AW', the only difference is that
        >I decided to get the 2400watt urn instead of the 3000watt model so
        >I didnt have to install a 15amp power point.
        >
        >
        2400w Good move now if you had a power controller to reduce the heat
        even further after initial heat up you would reduce the vapour rate
        which would increase the percentage achievable. Mine is 1800w and I
        still use a power controller. Also this would reduce the amount of
        cooling/hour required to condense the product.

        >Ive tested it with water and the max temp at the top of the column
        >would not get above 97c, is it critical to be able to get to 100c?
        >I also fixed a leak. The water that was distilled was clear with
        >little or no strange smells or flavours.
        >
        >
        No if you were at sea level with pure water you would get 100c as you
        climb above sea level the boiling point reduces and as you add
        impurities the boiling point rises so near enough is good enough.

        >So here is what I did...
        >I started the mash with 50 litres of water, 15kg of white sugar
        >and 2 packs of turbo24. I had trouble keeping the temp down it stayed
        >at about 28-30 degrees celsius and took about 3 days to stop
        >fermenting with a finished alc of about 10%, how can I increase the
        >alc %? I thought next time I might go with turbo48 or alcotech8, any
        >suggestions?
        >
        >
        10% isn't bad I have used both of the suggested 48 hour turbo's with
        good results just follow the instructions on the packets and use your
        hydrometer.

        >Then today I dumped 30 litres into my 40 litre urn and fired it up.
        >The top of the column sat at 22c for about half an hour then rocketed
        >to 76.5c in about 2 minutes so I fired up the cooling flow to the
        >condenser, I used a plastic bin with a water pump and 2 bags of ice,
        >The water in the bin got so hot I could hardly put my hand in.
        >
        >
        sounds like you may need a bigger water reservoir but try reducing the
        power first. I use the laundry tub and still have to change the water
        several times through a run.

        >The distillate flowed quite quickly, a stream rather than
        >drips. The temp was stable for maybe 2 hours then slowly climbed to
        >90ish over another hour. I understand that if the distillate comes
        >out too fast the purity will be lower, is this true and if so how
        >could I reduce the flow?
        >
        >
        Because you don't appear to have a reflux condenser the only way to
        reduce the output is to reduce the power input

        >I captured the distillate into 15 containers to try and smell the
        >changes abit like a spectrum. The first 3 containers approx. 300ml
        >total smelt like metholated spirits so was heads and put aside,
        >
        >
        I usually throw out the first 30-50ml just for good measure then collect
        heads to recycle but you we are only talking sugar washes and there is
        meant to be little to no methanol anyway.

        >the last 3 containers smelt alot like the mash so was tails and also
        >put aside approx. 500-750ml. I ended up with about 5 litres of
        >product. I tested it with the trusty alcometer and its about 85%.
        >Do you have any suggestions on how this might be increased to 90%
        >or over?
        >
        >
        see above

        >I put the heads and tails back into the fermenter with the left over
        >15 litres of mash and will put that through tomorrow to try and
        >squeeze the last of the ethenol out.
        >
        >All in all I think it went well and I now have a new hobby.
        >
        >I will be soaking some carbon in the product for maybe a week before
        >making some berry liquer, coffee liquer and perhaps some butterscotch
        >snapps using smashed butterscotch lollies.
        >
        >
        The longer you can leave the carbon soaking the better I usually try to
        leave it soaking till I'm ready to consume it then mix up a batch
        remember to shake occasionally loosening the lid after temporarily to
        breath.

        >So what do you all think about my first run? Any comments and
        >suggestions will help me get closer to perfection.
        >
        >
        Not bad, not bad at all. It will work fine just the way it is even with
        the cooling tubes through the column, and by decreasing your heat input
        via a power controller you will easily top the 90% mark. But having said
        that the real proof and the most satisfaction is in what your close
        friends and family think.

        >Thanks in advance
        >Mark
        >AlexandrianWitch
        >
        >
        >
        >
        Dean.
      • Harry
        ... looking ... running ... equilibrium. I ... of the ... Mark, I agree with Dean. Check out the why s & wherefore s of this at Tony s site. Read Mike
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 24, 2005
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          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, Dean Thomas <deanlil@p...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Hi Mark,
          >
          > Congrats sounds like a pretty successful first run and a nice
          looking
          > still the only thing I don't like about it is the cooling pipes
          running
          > through the column they only serve to disrupt the column
          equilibrium. I
          > personally would replace them with a reflux condenser at the top
          of the
          > column but that's just me it will work fine without one.
          > Other answers interspersed.



          Mark, I agree with Dean. Check out the why's & wherefore's of this
          at Tony's site. Read Mike Nixon's explanation...
          http://homedistiller.org//refluxdesign.htm

          Slainte!
          regards Harry
        • Mark
          Hi Guys, Thanks for the replies. Ive removed the lower condenser pipe from the column and arranged the cooling so it goes throught the top of the column to the
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 30, 2005
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            Hi Guys,

            Thanks for the replies.

            Ive removed the lower condenser pipe from the column and arranged
            the cooling so it goes throught the top of the column to the base of
            the condenser, up the condenser and out, the packing is up to the
            level of the top condenser tube.

            I now have about 110mm between the condenser pipe going through the
            column and the vapor outlet going through the condenser, is this
            enough space for a reflux condenser and is it ok to be below the
            vapor outlet? I have the room to extend the column 300mm or more
            above the vapor tube if this would be better, what do you think?

            As for controlling the heat, the urn Ive got has a thermostat
            control knob but its a 'switch on, switch off' type arrangement
            rather than a constant heat and Im not sure how good this is.

            Now to the drunkenness :)
            On friday night my good buddy and myself sat down and cracked a
            750ml bottle of my moonshine, 80%. We tried it with coke and
            orange juice using about 30-40ml per glass giving us the equivalent
            of double or triple shots. It was full on, we havent been that pissed
            since college, and supprisingly clear, giggly and energetic. We
            finished the 750ml bottle that night and were still shitfaced at
            2pm saturday. Normally Id show some constraint but I wanted to
            see how devestation this can be, and I wasnt disapointed. I think
            there is 4-6 drunken episodes inside one of those bottles and I
            still have about 10 left, yeah baby YEAH!! :). I did feel quite
            shitty after due to the alchohol poisoning and dehydration but
            none of the nasty gritty sort of feeling that would come from
            that level of drunkenness precured from commecial sources.

            Given the ease of making the still, the obscene quantities of high
            quality alcohol and the short time to make Im wondering why I
            didnt do all this sooner, like 10 or 15 years ago. I dont anticipate
            ever buying booze again, and as much as I love my wild turkey and
            coke, at $16 a four pack at 8% Id be a fool not to spend that money
            on yeast and sugar. But I now also see why its illegal, like I said
            the quantities are obscene.

            Kind Regards
            Mark
          • Dean Thomas
            Hi Mark, Home made is the best isn t it :) Just by removing that bottom tube and adding extra packing you should get an improvement. You ll need the best part
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 30, 2005
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              Hi Mark,

              Home made is the best isn't it :) Just by removing that bottom tube and
              adding extra packing you should get an improvement. You'll need the best
              part of 300mm for a coiled reflux condenser.
              An on off thermostat isn't good enough for this application you will get
              surge boiling.
              In my opinion you would be best to replace the thermostat with a variac
              or sutronics controller and then see how you go with the current set up,
              it will come in handy any way and with careful control you should crack
              the nineties.
              A reflux coil gives you the ability to stabilise the column before
              collecting and increases the reflux during a run for that extra few
              percent. It all depends on how high you wish to go and more to the point
              how long your willing to wait for a run to finish squeezing out that
              extra bit of alcohol.

              May the force be with you,
              Dean.



              Mark wrote:

              >Hi Guys,
              >
              >Thanks for the replies.
              >
              >Ive removed the lower condenser pipe from the column and arranged
              >the cooling so it goes throught the top of the column to the base of
              >the condenser, up the condenser and out, the packing is up to the
              >level of the top condenser tube.
              >
              >I now have about 110mm between the condenser pipe going through the
              >column and the vapor outlet going through the condenser, is this
              >enough space for a reflux condenser and is it ok to be below the
              >vapor outlet? I have the room to extend the column 300mm or more
              >above the vapor tube if this would be better, what do you think?
              >
              >As for controlling the heat, the urn Ive got has a thermostat
              >control knob but its a 'switch on, switch off' type arrangement
              >rather than a constant heat and Im not sure how good this is.
              >
              >Now to the drunkenness :)
              >On friday night my good buddy and myself sat down and cracked a
              >750ml bottle of my moonshine, 80%. We tried it with coke and
              >orange juice using about 30-40ml per glass giving us the equivalent
              >of double or triple shots. It was full on, we havent been that pissed
              >since college, and supprisingly clear, giggly and energetic. We
              >finished the 750ml bottle that night and were still shitfaced at
              >2pm saturday. Normally Id show some constraint but I wanted to
              >see how devestation this can be, and I wasnt disapointed. I think
              >there is 4-6 drunken episodes inside one of those bottles and I
              >still have about 10 left, yeah baby YEAH!! :). I did feel quite
              >shitty after due to the alchohol poisoning and dehydration but
              >none of the nasty gritty sort of feeling that would come from
              >that level of drunkenness precured from commecial sources.
              >
              >Given the ease of making the still, the obscene quantities of high
              >quality alcohol and the short time to make Im wondering why I
              >didnt do all this sooner, like 10 or 15 years ago. I dont anticipate
              >ever buying booze again, and as much as I love my wild turkey and
              >coke, at $16 a four pack at 8% Id be a fool not to spend that money
              >on yeast and sugar. But I now also see why its illegal, like I said
              >the quantities are obscene.
              >
              >Kind Regards
              >Mark
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > New Distillers group archives are at http://archive.nnytech.net/
              > FAQ and other information available at http://homedistiller.org
              >
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Harry
              Replies interspersed... ... of ... .........You can put a few coils there, either internal OR external, or BOTH (tricky to fabricate, but do-able). This will
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 30, 2005
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                Replies interspersed...


                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mark"
                <alexandrianwitch@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Guys,
                >
                > Thanks for the replies.
                >
                > Ive removed the lower condenser pipe from the column and arranged
                > the cooling so it goes throught the top of the column to the base
                of
                > the condenser, up the condenser and out, the packing is up to the
                > level of the top condenser tube.
                >
                > I now have about 110mm between the condenser pipe going through the
                > column and the vapor outlet going through the condenser, is this
                > enough space for a reflux condenser and is it ok to be below the
                > vapor outlet? I have the room to extend the column 300mm or more
                > above the vapor tube if this would be better, what do you think?



                .........You can put a few coils there, either internal OR external,
                or BOTH (tricky to fabricate, but do-able). This will allow you to
                manage the amount of vapour getting through to the takeoff point,
                and return reflux to the column packing. What you will have is a VM
                (Vapour Management) still. They work fine once you get the hang of
                adjusting the water flow. Putting a condenser ABOVE the takeoff
                point without any other mods will achieve the same thing, i.e. a VM
                type still. In both cases there is always the possibility of the
                reflux condensate 'channelling' (running down the column walls)
                instead of into the packing. Some say this reduces efficiency and
                the purpose of refluxing. Others say it's not that critical as the
                descending liquid meets rising vapours that are hotter and gets
                stripped (revapourization) of the ethanol. Whatever, the only way
                the ethanol can leave the system is UP.

                Now if you want to make a true LM still (Liquid Management), then
                put a larger coil on top of the column. Then put 2 inclined plates
                in the column in your 110mm space. Put a takeoff tube and needle
                valve regulator into the bottom plate. Do away altogether with the
                large liebig product condenser. The reflux condensate will run off
                the top plate into the pocket formed by the bottom plate. This will
                overflow back to the center of the packing (put a spill lip in the
                top edge of the plate to achieve this). Everything is regulated by
                the needle valve. Take more product, you get less reflux, and vise-
                versa. Close the valve you get total reflux, handy for
                equilibrating the column at startup. Look at Bokakob's (Alex) mini-
                still in the files section.




                >
                > As for controlling the heat, the urn Ive got has a thermostat
                > control knob but its a 'switch on, switch off' type arrangement
                > rather than a constant heat and Im not sure how good this is.




                ........NOT good. You'll get surge boiling which destroys the
                reflux/distilling action. Buy or build a zero-switching
                controller. Sutronics, or Benja's Helios SSR (in files), Burst
                Fire Schematic_2.doc (in Distillers Group files).



                >
                > Now to the drunkenness :)
                > On friday night my good buddy and myself sat down and cracked a
                > 750ml bottle of my moonshine, 80%.


                ..........Bloody Hell!! That strength will embalm ya!



                We tried it with coke and
                > orange juice using about 30-40ml per glass giving us the equivalent
                > of double or triple shots. It was full on, we havent been that
                pissed
                > since college, and supprisingly clear, giggly and energetic. We
                > finished the 750ml bottle that night and were still shitfaced at
                > 2pm saturday. Normally Id show some constraint but I wanted to
                > see how devestation this can be, and I wasnt disapointed. I think
                > there is 4-6 drunken episodes inside one of those bottles and I
                > still have about 10 left, yeah baby YEAH!! :). I did feel quite
                > shitty after due to the alchohol poisoning and dehydration but
                > none of the nasty gritty sort of feeling that would come from
                > that level of drunkenness precured from commecial sources.
                >
                > Given the ease of making the still, the obscene quantities of high
                > quality alcohol and the short time to make Im wondering why I
                > didnt do all this sooner, like 10 or 15 years ago.


                ................Well if you HAD done it then and been drinking it at
                80%, I'm betting we wouldn't be reading this post! ;-)
                Consider cutting your bottling strength to a sane level like 40 to
                46% abv. Good enough for the commercial boys & less chance of
                killing yourself (or someone else), who may be used to 4 or 5
                drinks/hr. At 80%, it'd be too easy to OD. Remember, it only take
                ONE person to die and the authorities put on the jackboots. As a
                hobby distiller, you have a moral obligation to do NOTHING that will
                set the hobby scene back to the bad old days. Au contrère, you
                should be doing EVERYTHING to show the legislators that we are a
                responsible bunch who deserve to be LEGIT.



                I dont anticipate
                > ever buying booze again, and as much as I love my wild turkey and
                > coke, at $16 a four pack at 8% Id be a fool not to spend that money
                > on yeast and sugar. But I now also see why its illegal, like I said
                > the quantities are obscene.
                >
                > Kind Regards
                > Mark
                >

                ................With time & practice, you could make your own wild
                turkey. Even if the cost eventually turns out to be similar,
                there's the satisfaction of knowing you DID IT! That's the ultimate
                goal of every hobby distiller, even if they don't yet realise it.
                ;-)


                Slainte!
                regards Harry
              • Lindsay Williams
                Errrm, surely, Mark s system will remain a CM (cooling management) still? A VM system has physical control of vapour via a valve. Sure, varying the water in a
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 30, 2005
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                  Errrm, surely, Mark's system will remain a CM (cooling management)
                  still? A VM system has physical control of vapour via a valve. Sure,
                  varying the water in a CM system controls the vapour flow but only
                  indirectly.

                  Cheers,
                  Lindsay

                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Replies interspersed...
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mark"
                  > <alexandrianwitch@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Guys,
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for the replies.
                  > >
                  > > Ive removed the lower condenser pipe from the column and arranged
                  > > the cooling so it goes throught the top of the column to the base
                  > of
                  > > the condenser, up the condenser and out, the packing is up to the
                  > > level of the top condenser tube.
                  > >
                  > > I now have about 110mm between the condenser pipe going through the
                  > > column and the vapor outlet going through the condenser, is this
                  > > enough space for a reflux condenser and is it ok to be below the
                  > > vapor outlet? I have the room to extend the column 300mm or more
                  > > above the vapor tube if this would be better, what do you think?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > .........You can put a few coils there, either internal OR external,
                  > or BOTH (tricky to fabricate, but do-able). This will allow you to
                  > manage the amount of vapour getting through to the takeoff point,
                  > and return reflux to the column packing. What you will have is a VM
                  > (Vapour Management) still. They work fine once you get the hang of
                  > adjusting the water flow. Putting a condenser ABOVE the takeoff
                  > point without any other mods will achieve the same thing, i.e. a VM
                  > type still. In both cases there is always the possibility of the
                  > reflux condensate 'channelling' (running down the column walls)
                  > instead of into the packing. Some say this reduces efficiency and
                  > the purpose of refluxing. Others say it's not that critical as the
                  > descending liquid meets rising vapours that are hotter and gets
                  > stripped (revapourization) of the ethanol. Whatever, the only way
                  > the ethanol can leave the system is UP.
                  >
                  > Now if you want to make a true LM still (Liquid Management), then
                  > put a larger coil on top of the column. Then put 2 inclined plates
                  > in the column in your 110mm space. Put a takeoff tube and needle
                  > valve regulator into the bottom plate. Do away altogether with the
                  > large liebig product condenser. The reflux condensate will run off
                  > the top plate into the pocket formed by the bottom plate. This will
                  > overflow back to the center of the packing (put a spill lip in the
                  > top edge of the plate to achieve this). Everything is regulated by
                  > the needle valve. Take more product, you get less reflux, and vise-
                  > versa. Close the valve you get total reflux, handy for
                  > equilibrating the column at startup. Look at Bokakob's (Alex) mini-
                  > still in the files section.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > As for controlling the heat, the urn Ive got has a thermostat
                  > > control knob but its a 'switch on, switch off' type arrangement
                  > > rather than a constant heat and Im not sure how good this is.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ........NOT good. You'll get surge boiling which destroys the
                  > reflux/distilling action. Buy or build a zero-switching
                  > controller. Sutronics, or Benja's Helios SSR (in files), Burst
                  > Fire Schematic_2.doc (in Distillers Group files).
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Now to the drunkenness :)
                  > > On friday night my good buddy and myself sat down and cracked a
                  > > 750ml bottle of my moonshine, 80%.
                  >
                  >
                  > ..........Bloody Hell!! That strength will embalm ya!
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > We tried it with coke and
                  > > orange juice using about 30-40ml per glass giving us the equivalent
                  > > of double or triple shots. It was full on, we havent been that
                  > pissed
                  > > since college, and supprisingly clear, giggly and energetic. We
                  > > finished the 750ml bottle that night and were still shitfaced at
                  > > 2pm saturday. Normally Id show some constraint but I wanted to
                  > > see how devestation this can be, and I wasnt disapointed. I think
                  > > there is 4-6 drunken episodes inside one of those bottles and I
                  > > still have about 10 left, yeah baby YEAH!! :). I did feel quite
                  > > shitty after due to the alchohol poisoning and dehydration but
                  > > none of the nasty gritty sort of feeling that would come from
                  > > that level of drunkenness precured from commecial sources.
                  > >
                  > > Given the ease of making the still, the obscene quantities of high
                  > > quality alcohol and the short time to make Im wondering why I
                  > > didnt do all this sooner, like 10 or 15 years ago.
                  >
                  >
                  > ................Well if you HAD done it then and been drinking it at
                  > 80%, I'm betting we wouldn't be reading this post! ;-)
                  > Consider cutting your bottling strength to a sane level like 40 to
                  > 46% abv. Good enough for the commercial boys & less chance of
                  > killing yourself (or someone else), who may be used to 4 or 5
                  > drinks/hr. At 80%, it'd be too easy to OD. Remember, it only take
                  > ONE person to die and the authorities put on the jackboots. As a
                  > hobby distiller, you have a moral obligation to do NOTHING that will
                  > set the hobby scene back to the bad old days. Au contrère, you
                  > should be doing EVERYTHING to show the legislators that we are a
                  > responsible bunch who deserve to be LEGIT.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I dont anticipate
                  > > ever buying booze again, and as much as I love my wild turkey and
                  > > coke, at $16 a four pack at 8% Id be a fool not to spend that money
                  > > on yeast and sugar. But I now also see why its illegal, like I said
                  > > the quantities are obscene.
                  > >
                  > > Kind Regards
                  > > Mark
                  > >
                  >
                  > ................With time & practice, you could make your own wild
                  > turkey. Even if the cost eventually turns out to be similar,
                  > there's the satisfaction of knowing you DID IT! That's the ultimate
                  > goal of every hobby distiller, even if they don't yet realise it.
                  > ;-)
                  >
                  >
                  > Slainte!
                  > regards Harry
                  >
                • Harry
                  ... Strictly speak, you re probably right Lindsay. I have never distinguished between VM & CM. To me, there s only ONE thing to manage in a still, and that
                  Message 8 of 18 , Oct 31, 2005
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                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Lindsay Williams" <linw@x...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Errrm, surely, Mark's system will remain a CM (cooling management)
                    > still? A VM system has physical control of vapour via a valve. Sure,
                    > varying the water in a CM system controls the vapour flow but only
                    > indirectly.
                    >
                    > Cheers,
                    > Lindsay



                    Strictly speak, you're probably right Lindsay. I have never
                    distinguished between VM & CM. To me, there's only ONE thing to
                    manage in a still, and that is the ethanol. You can do that either in
                    its vapour form, or its liquid form. How you achieve that management
                    is up to you, either by valves, coolant control, heat control, or a
                    combination of some or all of these. Others will no doubt disagree,
                    but it's just my opinion, and it works for me. :-)


                    Slainte!
                    regards Harry
                  • Lindsay Williams
                    You have a point in reducing the management systems to two. I guess your defns are another level of abstraction deeper than the usual three. Cheers, Lindsay.
                    Message 9 of 18 , Oct 31, 2005
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                      You have a point in reducing the management systems to two. I guess
                      your defns are another level of abstraction deeper than the usual three.

                      Cheers,
                      Lindsay.


                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Harry" <gnikomson2000@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Lindsay Williams" <linw@x>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Errrm, surely, Mark's system will remain a CM (cooling management)
                      > > still? A VM system has physical control of vapour via a valve. Sure,
                      > > varying the water in a CM system controls the vapour flow but only
                      > > indirectly.
                      > >
                      > > Cheers,
                      > > Lindsay
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Strictly speak, you're probably right Lindsay. I have never
                      > distinguished between VM & CM. To me, there's only ONE thing to
                      > manage in a still, and that is the ethanol. You can do that either in
                      > its vapour form, or its liquid form. How you achieve that management
                      > is up to you, either by valves, coolant control, heat control, or a
                      > combination of some or all of these. Others will no doubt disagree,
                      > but it's just my opinion, and it works for me. :-)
                      >
                      >
                      > Slainte!
                      > regards Harry
                      >
                    • Harry
                      ... three. ... Heh, comes from years of designing relational databases. You know, 1 many, many many, 1 1 (unique). The less entities you have, the
                      Message 10 of 18 , Oct 31, 2005
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                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Lindsay Williams" <linw@x...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > You have a point in reducing the management systems to two. I guess
                        > your defns are another level of abstraction deeper than the usual
                        three.
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > Lindsay.



                        Heh, comes from years of designing relational databases.
                        You know, 1 <-> many, many <-> many, 1 <-> 1 (unique). The less
                        entities you have, the easier it is to create the tables and joins.


                        Slainte!
                        regards Harry
                      • _{*L*}_
                        Congratulations on joining the distillers guild! This is very true. I believe that home distillation process produces far cleaner alcohol compared to most of
                        Message 11 of 18 , Oct 31, 2005
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                          Congratulations on joining the distillers guild! This is very true. I believe that home distillation process produces far cleaner alcohol compared to most of affordable commercial products. The proof is obvious the next morning when you don’t have nagging vomiting feeling and headaches. The only immediate side effect is slight dehydration and the urge to drink some liquids.

                          Not counting liver damage this is the lesser evil…

                          By the way 80% abv is far from a "clean and pure" product. You should strive for 95% refluxed "double distillation" process. Then you will see the difference.

                          Mark <alexandrianwitch@...>




                          _{*L*}_
                          http://briefcase.yahoo.com/bokakob


























                          ---------------------------------
                          Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • morganfield1
                          Hi Guys, On VM s that have a large valve to control vapor entering the final condensor, is there anoghther way out for excess vapor to escape the column (i.e.
                          Message 12 of 18 , Nov 1, 2005
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                            Hi Guys,
                            On VM's that have a large valve to control vapor entering the final
                            condensor, is there anoghther way out for excess vapor to escape the
                            column (i.e. out the top, through a reflux cond.), just curious?
                            Morgan


                            >
                            > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Lindsay Williams" <linw@x>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Errrm, surely, Mark's system will remain a CM (cooling management)
                            > > still? A VM system has physical control of vapour via a valve.
                            Sure,
                            > > varying the water in a CM system controls the vapour flow but only
                            > > indirectly.
                            > >
                            > > Cheers,
                            > > Lindsay
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Strictly speak, you're probably right Lindsay. I have never
                            > distinguished between VM & CM. To me, there's only ONE thing to
                            > manage in a still, and that is the ethanol. You can do that either
                            in
                            > its vapour form, or its liquid form. How you achieve that
                            management
                            > is up to you, either by valves, coolant control, heat control, or a
                            > combination of some or all of these. Others will no doubt
                            disagree,
                            > but it's just my opinion, and it works for me. :-)
                            >
                            >
                            > Slainte!
                            > regards Harry
                            >
                          • Lindsay Williams
                            It doesn t escape. It goes up to the reflux condenser and returns as liquid to the column. Can t let any escape!! Cheers, Lindsay.
                            Message 13 of 18 , Nov 1, 2005
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                              It doesn't escape. It goes up to the reflux condenser and returns as
                              liquid to the column. Can't let any escape!!

                              Cheers,
                              Lindsay.

                              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "morganfield1"
                              <morganfield1@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Guys,
                              > On VM's that have a large valve to control vapor entering the final
                              > condensor, is there anoghther way out for excess vapor to escape the
                              > column (i.e. out the top, through a reflux cond.), just curious?
                              > Morgan
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              > > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Lindsay Williams" <linw@x>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Errrm, surely, Mark's system will remain a CM (cooling management)
                              > > > still? A VM system has physical control of vapour via a valve.
                              > Sure,
                              > > > varying the water in a CM system controls the vapour flow but only
                              > > > indirectly.
                              > > >
                              > > > Cheers,
                              > > > Lindsay
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Strictly speak, you're probably right Lindsay. I have never
                              > > distinguished between VM & CM. To me, there's only ONE thing to
                              > > manage in a still, and that is the ethanol. You can do that either
                              > in
                              > > its vapour form, or its liquid form. How you achieve that
                              > management
                              > > is up to you, either by valves, coolant control, heat control, or a
                              > > combination of some or all of these. Others will no doubt
                              > disagree,
                              > > but it's just my opinion, and it works for me. :-)
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Slainte!
                              > > regards Harry
                              > >
                              >
                            • morganfield1
                              Thanks, Lindsay, I guess I didn t pose my question correctly. I realize none escapes , but you did answere my question. There is a reflux condenser at the
                              Message 14 of 18 , Nov 2, 2005
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                                Thanks, Lindsay, I guess I didn't pose my question correctly. I realize
                                none "escapes", but you did answere my question. There is a reflux
                                condenser at the top, then, above the take-off, and I would assume that
                                condenser is open to air. My original concern was if the top of the
                                column were closed of (as in a pot still), and the valve were left
                                closed inadvertantly during boil up, well, you know.
                                Ok, now I'm wondering why any of the vapor goes through the lyne arm
                                (take-off) and not all of it, being hot, doesn't rise up into the
                                reflux cond. and consequently return down the column as liquid. I will
                                have to consult the files. Thank you, again.
                                Tip one, Morgan


                                > It doesn't escape. It goes up to the reflux condenser and returns as
                                > liquid to the column. Can't let any escape!!
                                >
                                > Cheers,
                                > Lindsay.
                                >
                                >
                              • Lindsay Williams
                                You re right, the column is open at the top. The vapour is more dense than air so will venture down the side exit and flow down. This effect is why a VM
                                Message 15 of 18 , Nov 2, 2005
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                                  You're right, the column is open at the top.

                                  The vapour is more dense than air so will venture down the side exit
                                  and flow down. This effect is why a VM system's output falls off as
                                  the percentage weakens. At around 34% (from memory) the vapour is the
                                  same density as air so doesn't tend to flow down the exit. Auto tails
                                  cutoff! (in theory). The proportion that flows out the exit is in
                                  relation to the relative sizes of the vertical and horizontal
                                  openings. The openings on my still are approx the same size (20mm) so
                                  reflux can only be controlled between 100-50%. At the 50% state, half
                                  goes up and half goes to the product condenser. With valve closed,
                                  100% goes up and gets refluxed.

                                  Cheers,
                                  Lindsay.

                                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "morganfield1"
                                  <morganfield1@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Thanks, Lindsay, I guess I didn't pose my question correctly. I realize
                                  > none "escapes", but you did answere my question. There is a reflux
                                  > condenser at the top, then, above the take-off, and I would assume that
                                  > condenser is open to air. My original concern was if the top of the
                                  > column were closed of (as in a pot still), and the valve were left
                                  > closed inadvertantly during boil up, well, you know.
                                  > Ok, now I'm wondering why any of the vapor goes through the lyne arm
                                  > (take-off) and not all of it, being hot, doesn't rise up into the
                                  > reflux cond. and consequently return down the column as liquid. I will
                                  > have to consult the files. Thank you, again.
                                  > Tip one, Morgan
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > It doesn't escape. It goes up to the reflux condenser and returns as
                                  > > liquid to the column. Can't let any escape!!
                                  > >
                                  > > Cheers,
                                  > > Lindsay.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • morganfield1
                                  Thanks again, Lindsay, Very interesting, right now I have a column pot still. I m thinking of converting it to a CM or RM, If these become to touchy to
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Nov 3, 2005
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                                    Thanks again, Lindsay,
                                    Very interesting, right now I have a column pot still. I'm thinking
                                    of converting it to a CM or RM, If these become to touchy to control,
                                    I may go VM.
                                    Tip one, Morgan

                                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Lindsay Williams" <linw@x...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > You're right, the column is open at the top.
                                    >
                                    > The vapour is more dense than air so will venture down the side exit
                                    > and flow down. This effect is why a VM system's output falls off as
                                    > the percentage weakens. At around 34% (from memory) the vapour is
                                    the
                                    > same density as air so doesn't tend to flow down the exit. Auto
                                    tails
                                    > cutoff! (in theory). The proportion that flows out the exit is in
                                    > relation to the relative sizes of the vertical and horizontal
                                    > openings. The openings on my still are approx the same size (20mm)
                                    so
                                    > reflux can only be controlled between 100-50%. At the 50% state,
                                    half
                                    > goes up and half goes to the product condenser. With valve closed,
                                    > 100% goes up and gets refluxed.
                                    >
                                    > Cheers,
                                    > Lindsay.
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • abbababbaccc
                                    RM is best used for neutral alcohol. If that s what you are after I recommend you go to ARC straight away. Similar principle as with RM but you don t need to
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Nov 5, 2005
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                                      RM is best used for neutral alcohol. If that's what you are after I
                                      recommend you go to ARC straight away. Similar principle as with RM
                                      but you don't need to fiddle with valves as it's fully automatic.

                                      - Riku


                                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "morganfield1"
                                      <morganfield1@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Thanks again, Lindsay,
                                      > Very interesting, right now I have a column pot still. I'm thinking
                                      > of converting it to a CM or RM, If these become to touchy to
                                      control,
                                      > I may go VM.
                                      > Tip one, Morgan
                                      >
                                      > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Lindsay Williams" <linw@x>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > You're right, the column is open at the top.
                                      > >
                                      > > The vapour is more dense than air so will venture down the side
                                      exit
                                      > > and flow down. This effect is why a VM system's output falls off
                                      as
                                      > > the percentage weakens. At around 34% (from memory) the vapour is
                                      > the
                                      > > same density as air so doesn't tend to flow down the exit. Auto
                                      > tails
                                      > > cutoff! (in theory). The proportion that flows out the exit is in
                                      > > relation to the relative sizes of the vertical and horizontal
                                      > > openings. The openings on my still are approx the same size
                                      (20mm)
                                      > so
                                      > > reflux can only be controlled between 100-50%. At the 50% state,
                                      > half
                                      > > goes up and half goes to the product condenser. With valve closed,
                                      > > 100% goes up and gets refluxed.
                                      > >
                                      > > Cheers,
                                      > > Lindsay.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • morganfield1
                                      Actually, I make whiskeys, rum, and other flavored drinks. What I d like to achieve is about a solid 80% on the first run, and save me the time waiting for a
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Nov 5, 2005
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                                        Actually, I make whiskeys, rum, and other flavored drinks. What I'd
                                        like to achieve is about a solid 80% on the first run, and save me the
                                        time waiting for a second boil up. I found myself a nice piece of 1/8th
                                        inch (about 4mm) copper tubing and wound up a nice little (about 4 in.)
                                        reflux coil to hang in my column, thru the top cap. I don't plan to
                                        have the top open, as I don't believe the coil is big enough to totally
                                        condense the vapors. The column is open to air thru the lyne arm. Any
                                        recomendations would be aprieciated. Thanks,
                                        Tip one, Morgan

                                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "abbababbaccc"
                                        <abbababbaccc@y...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > RM is best used for neutral alcohol. If that's what you are after I
                                        > recommend you go to ARC straight away. Similar principle as with RM
                                        > but you don't need to fiddle with valves as it's fully automatic.
                                        >
                                        > - Riku
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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