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Re: OK, in the middle of my first sugar wash

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  • Harry
    ... Right. The ammonia smell is coming from the nutrients you put in. It s DiAmmonium Phosphate, or DAP. It supplies nitrogen for the yeast to do it s thing.
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 30 5:51 PM
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      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "supasnappahead"
      <supasnappahead@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Done according to your instructions, deposited into the wash, and it
      > seems to be percolating along happily. Still smells strongly of
      > ammonia, but I guess that's not a problem, right?


      Right. The ammonia smell is coming from the nutrients you put in.
      It's DiAmmonium Phosphate, or DAP. It supplies nitrogen for the yeast
      to do it's thing. Nitrogen depletion = stuck ferment. Good sources
      for nitrogen are amino acids & ammoniacs (DAP). Just don't put in
      more than the recommended dosage, or you'll have excess left in your
      wash. This can cause other problems later like formation of ethyl
      carbamate, which is carcinogenic. Always stick to the instructions
      when using commercial nutrients.


      Slainte!
      regards Harry
    • Mark
      The ammonia smell is coming from the nutrients you put in. ... yeast ... IMHO, a little DAP goes a long long way - even with white sugar bills. I suspect this
      Message 2 of 10 , May 1, 2005
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        The ammonia smell is coming from the nutrients you put in.
        > It's DiAmmonium Phosphate, or DAP. It supplies nitrogen for the
        yeast
        > to do it's thing. Nitrogen depletion = stuck ferment. Good sources
        > for nitrogen are amino acids & ammoniacs (DAP). Just don't put in
        > more than the recommended dosage, or you'll have excess left in your
        > wash. This can cause other problems later like formation of ethyl
        > carbamate, which is carcinogenic. Always stick to the instructions
        > when using commercial nutrients.
        >
        >
        > Slainte!
        > regards Harry

        IMHO, a little DAP goes a long long way - even with white sugar
        bills. I suspect this wash already has too much.

        Harry, would you suggest that this wash be acidified to 5.5 or so
        PRIOR to first distillation? My bet is he'll see a blue river if he
        don't.


        Basics I've learned the I suggest to all beginners:
        1. If it's city water, boil every drop you use in the wash.
        2. Sugar is hard to fully dissolve. "dumping" don't work. It needs
        heat and/or mechanical agitation.
        3. Always make a yeast starter (as in Harry's reply)
        4. Use a minimum of 2 5gm packets per 5 gallon batch
        5. Pitch the yeast into the starter only when the starter is below 70F
        6. Pitch the starter into the wash only when the wash is below 70F
      • supasnappahead
        ... I know I probably put in too much DAP. I had to fake it a little on the recipe because there were a few things I couldn t get my hands on. For example,
        Message 3 of 10 , May 1, 2005
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          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <highabv@y...> wrote:
          > The ammonia smell is coming from the nutrients you put in.
          > > It's DiAmmonium Phosphate, or DAP. It supplies nitrogen for the
          > yeast
          > > to do it's thing. Nitrogen depletion = stuck ferment. Good sources
          > > for nitrogen are amino acids & ammoniacs (DAP). Just don't put in
          > > more than the recommended dosage, or you'll have excess left in your
          > > wash. This can cause other problems later like formation of ethyl
          > > carbamate, which is carcinogenic. Always stick to the instructions
          > > when using commercial nutrients.
          > >
          > >
          > > Slainte!
          > > regards Harry
          >
          > IMHO, a little DAP goes a long long way - even with white sugar
          > bills. I suspect this wash already has too much.
          >
          > Harry, would you suggest that this wash be acidified to 5.5 or so
          > PRIOR to first distillation? My bet is he'll see a blue river if he
          > don't.
          >
          >
          > Basics I've learned the I suggest to all beginners:
          > 1. If it's city water, boil every drop you use in the wash.
          > 2. Sugar is hard to fully dissolve. "dumping" don't work. It needs
          > heat and/or mechanical agitation.
          > 3. Always make a yeast starter (as in Harry's reply)
          > 4. Use a minimum of 2 5gm packets per 5 gallon batch
          > 5. Pitch the yeast into the starter only when the starter is below 70F
          > 6. Pitch the starter into the wash only when the wash is below 70F

          I know I probably put in too much DAP. I had to fake it a little on
          the recipe because there were a few things I couldn't get my hands on.
          For example, for the DAP, I had straight DAP plus something called
          Superfood. I don't know what the concentration of DAP is in the
          Superfood so... I don't know exactly how much there is in there.

          I did dissolve the first 5# in hot water and then poured that
          suspension over the other 5# in the primary fermenter. It was about
          20 quarts of hot water... I think that did the trick... I didn't boil
          all the city water, though, just about half of it.

          The fermenter's going like crazy today so I'm sure the yeast are
          feasting on all the sugar and nutrients and everything. The airlock
          is bubbling about once per second today, plus or minus.

          Is there a way to distill out any carcinogens that could be in my wash
          or am I stuck with drinking bad booze? Also, I think I'm going to try
          to write up a recipe for a sugar wash that uses my locally available
          ingredients.

          I keep hearing about turbo yeast. Does that increase the yield
          significantly? What's the story with turbo yeast?
        • Mark
          snipity snip snip (I lose yield every time I get lazy and don t boil my city water.) Is there a way to distill out any carcinogens that could be in my wash or
          Message 4 of 10 , May 1, 2005
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            snipity snip snip

            (I lose yield every time I get lazy and don't boil my city water.)

            Is there a way to distill out any carcinogens that could be in my
            wash or am I stuck with drinking bad booze?

            (I might have been totally wrong with my "blue river" comment. Just
            don't add any baking soda to the ferment prior to 1st distillation.
            Try a slow distill (a lot of reflux), maybe 100ml/hr. Every hour
            draw 10 drops into a clean shot glass, mix with 15 drops of water,
            and taste / smell test. Keep the good, pitch the bad.)

            Also, I think I'm going to try to write up a recipe for a sugar wash
            that uses my locally available ingredients.

            (Bokabob already did that. Check in the "Files" section. I have
            never failed to make a good batch using this recipe.)

            I keep hearing about turbo yeast. Does that increase the yield
            significantly? What's the story with turbo yeast?

            (They work very well. I think there are 2 major brands of this type
            of yeast, sold through a number of online stores. Do a web search
            on "turbo yeast", contact the vendors, and make a choice. I think
            I've tried every type and brand of turbo yeast - all work as
            advertised. They cost more than supermarket bread yeast, but they
            also contain nutrients and such for pure sugar washes.)
          • Harry
            ... on ... on. ... about ... boil ... airlock ... wash ... try ... available ... Turbo yeast is commercially bred strains dehydrated & mixed with the right
            Message 5 of 10 , May 1, 2005
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              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "supasnappahead"
              <supasnappahead@y...> wrote:

              >
              > I know I probably put in too much DAP. I had to fake it a little
              on
              > the recipe because there were a few things I couldn't get my hands
              on.
              > For example, for the DAP, I had straight DAP plus something called
              > Superfood. I don't know what the concentration of DAP is in the
              > Superfood so... I don't know exactly how much there is in there.
              >
              > I did dissolve the first 5# in hot water and then poured that
              > suspension over the other 5# in the primary fermenter. It was
              about
              > 20 quarts of hot water... I think that did the trick... I didn't
              boil
              > all the city water, though, just about half of it.
              >
              > The fermenter's going like crazy today so I'm sure the yeast are
              > feasting on all the sugar and nutrients and everything. The
              airlock
              > is bubbling about once per second today, plus or minus.
              >
              > Is there a way to distill out any carcinogens that could be in my
              wash
              > or am I stuck with drinking bad booze? Also, I think I'm going to
              try
              > to write up a recipe for a sugar wash that uses my locally
              available
              > ingredients.
              >
              > I keep hearing about turbo yeast. Does that increase the yield
              > significantly? What's the story with turbo yeast?


              Turbo yeast is commercially bred strains dehydrated & mixed with the
              right dose of nutrients, complete in 1 packet. Usually fairly
              consistent and a no-brainer for beginners.

              re the carcinogens: There's a few things you need to understand...

              1) Wort (the ferment) is a concoction containing yeast, nutrients,
              sugars, alcohols & many other substances. When fermented (now a
              wash), for all intents & purposes it is a low-to-medium strength
              wine. Even straight sugar washes are wines, as are grain and fruit
              washes.

              2) ALL fermented beverages will contain SOME ethyl carbamate
              because Urea reacts spontaneously with the alcohol to form EC,
              usually at the end of the ferment.

              3) Urea is formed from Arginine. Arginine, the main amino acid in
              grape juice and many nutrient mixes, is taken up by yeast as a
              nutrient. Arginine can also be synthesized from other amino acids
              (nutrients) by yeasts and Lactic Acid Bacteria.

              4) The chemical reaction between urea and alcohol is exponentially
              accelerated at elevated temperatures.

              Urea (nitrogen source, fertilizer) has been banned as a nutrient
              source, even though it works fine. There's too much risk of excess
              feeding, thus producing excess EC. DAP (nitrogen source,
              fertilizer) in excess can produce similar results.

              There is some good news. Urea is not volatile (won't distill over)
              and EC itself possesses a poor volatility. However, EC may still be
              found in wine distillates. It can be formed AFTER distillation via
              the reaction of a volatile precursor, isocyanate, and alcohol both
              at ambient and elevated temperatures.

              Producers of fruit wine distillates have to be aware of another
              precursor for ethyl carbamate, in the form of cyanides. Stone-
              fruits, especially such as cherries, apricots or plums, contain
              sugar-bound cyanides in their seeds, which can be released during
              fermentation. Removal of stones prior to fermentation, and a
              secondary distillation are essential to avoid high concentrations of
              volatile EC precursors in this type of spirit.


              Slainte!
              regards Harry
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