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How much left in Column...

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  • mickm2au
    Hi All We ve just built a VP still as per The Complete Distiller book and have just done the first test run (after a run thru with plain water) I loaded up
    Message 1 of 22 , Feb 27, 2005
      Hi All

      We've just built a VP still as per The Complete Distiller book and
      have just done the first test run (after a run thru with plain water)
      I loaded up with 4 litres of water and 800ml of 77% spirit produced
      by my old short Euro Still column. I calculated that we should end
      up with about 640 ml if we got 95% out of it, as the heads and most
      of the tails had already been removed. We ended up with about 400 ml
      of >95% before the temp started to rise quickly and the product
      slowed down. We only have about 500 watts on the boiler at this
      stage. The column is 1 mtr X 50 mm with Amphora copper packing.

      What happened to the other 240 ml of spirit ? I would have thought
      that it all would have been pushed up the column by the higher temp
      stuff and not much would have stuck to the packing.

      Any thoughts ??

      Mickm
    • mickm2au
      ... water) ... produced ... most ... ml ... temp ... Ooops...VP should read VC
      Message 2 of 22 , Feb 27, 2005
        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mickm2au" <mmorris2@b...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Hi All
        >
        > We've just built a VP still as per The Complete Distiller book and
        > have just done the first test run (after a run thru with plain
        water)
        > I loaded up with 4 litres of water and 800ml of 77% spirit
        produced
        > by my old short Euro Still column. I calculated that we should end
        > up with about 640 ml if we got 95% out of it, as the heads and
        most
        > of the tails had already been removed. We ended up with about 400
        ml
        > of >95% before the temp started to rise quickly and the product
        > slowed down. We only have about 500 watts on the boiler at this
        > stage. The column is 1 mtr X 50 mm with Amphora copper packing.
        >
        > What happened to the other 240 ml of spirit ? I would have thought
        > that it all would have been pushed up the column by the higher
        temp
        > stuff and not much would have stuck to the packing.
        >
        > Any thoughts ??
        >
        > Mickm

        Ooops...VP should read VC
      • Mike Nixon
        mickm2au wrote: Subject: [new_distillers] How much left in Column... Hi All We ve just built a VP still as per The Complete Distiller book and have just done
        Message 3 of 22 , Feb 27, 2005
          mickm2au wrote:
          Subject: [new_distillers] How much left in Column...

          Hi All

          We've just built a VP still as per The Complete Distiller book and
          have just done the first test run (after a run thru with plain water)
          I loaded up with 4 litres of water and 800ml of 77% spirit produced
          by my old short Euro Still column. I calculated that we should end
          up with about 640 ml if we got 95% out of it, as the heads and most
          of the tails had already been removed. We ended up with about 400 ml
          of >95% before the temp started to rise quickly and the product
          slowed down. We only have about 500 watts on the boiler at this
          stage. The column is 1 mtr X 50 mm with Amphora copper packing.

          What happened to the other 240 ml of spirit ? I would have thought
          that it all would have been pushed up the column by the higher temp
          stuff and not much would have stuck to the packing.
          ========================
          Hi Mick,

          Your VM still is working just fine. Nothing should come out of it when
          using just water of course, for steam is only 0.6 times as dense as air, so
          just goes straight up to the top condenser and then back down again. Pure
          ethanol vapor has a density of 1.6 times that of air, so will try and take
          the downward path via the side valve. However, by the time the vapor
          reaches 43% ethanol the density of the ethanol/steam mix has fallen to the
          same as that of air (ie. 1.0 times as dense), so the output of the still
          will "dry up". Under usual circumstances this is fine, for with a standard
          wash the tails become evident at around this point and you want the still to
          stop producing. In your case, instead of the usual brew of compounds that
          make up the tails (with a bit of ethanol), you had just 77% spirit mixed
          with water when the density dropped to this point, so that "missing" ethanol
          stayed in the boiler. You can recover than in your next run if you strip
          what was left in the boiler and add it to the next batch you process.

          All the best,
          Mike N
        • mickm2au
          ... water) ... ml ... when ... as air, so ... again. Pure ... and take ... vapor ... fallen to the ... still ... standard ... the still to ... compounds that
          Message 4 of 22 , Feb 27, 2005
            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Nixon" <mike@s...>
            wrote:
            > mickm2au wrote:
            > Subject: [new_distillers] How much left in Column...
            >
            > Hi All
            >
            > We've just built a VP still as per The Complete Distiller book and
            > have just done the first test run (after a run thru with plain
            water)
            > I loaded up with 4 litres of water and 800ml of 77% spirit produced
            > by my old short Euro Still column. I calculated that we should end
            > up with about 640 ml if we got 95% out of it, as the heads and most
            > of the tails had already been removed. We ended up with about 400
            ml
            > of >95% before the temp started to rise quickly and the product
            > slowed down. We only have about 500 watts on the boiler at this
            > stage. The column is 1 mtr X 50 mm with Amphora copper packing.
            >
            > What happened to the other 240 ml of spirit ? I would have thought
            > that it all would have been pushed up the column by the higher temp
            > stuff and not much would have stuck to the packing.
            > ========================
            > Hi Mick,
            >
            > Your VM still is working just fine. Nothing should come out of it
            when
            > using just water of course, for steam is only 0.6 times as dense
            as air, so
            > just goes straight up to the top condenser and then back down
            again. Pure
            > ethanol vapor has a density of 1.6 times that of air, so will try
            and take
            > the downward path via the side valve. However, by the time the
            vapor
            > reaches 43% ethanol the density of the ethanol/steam mix has
            fallen to the
            > same as that of air (ie. 1.0 times as dense), so the output of the
            still
            > will "dry up". Under usual circumstances this is fine, for with a
            standard
            > wash the tails become evident at around this point and you want
            the still to
            > stop producing. In your case, instead of the usual brew of
            compounds that
            > make up the tails (with a bit of ethanol), you had just 77%
            spirit mixed
            > with water when the density dropped to this point, so
            that "missing" ethanol
            > stayed in the boiler. You can recover than in your next run if
            you strip
            > what was left in the boiler and add it to the next batch you
            process.
            >
            > All the best,
            > Mike N


            Thanks Mike...I knew that once the vapor dropped to 43% the product
            would dry up, but I thought it would happen with a sharper knee with
            not that much ethanol left in the brew. So I guess what you're
            saying is the drop in ethanol content of the vapor leaving the
            boiler is more linear and the separation from the water occurs
            mainly at the T junction, but can only occur if the vapor
            concentration is >43%.
            With a normal sugar wash brew does the 43% vapor comprise of mainly
            other compounds so as less ethanol is left in the boiler? wheras in
            my brew it contained only ethanol.

            I think I get it now..

            Mickm
          • Mike Nixon
            mickm2au wrote: Subject: [new_distillers] Re: How much left in Column... (Mike wrote)Your VM still is working just fine. (snip) Thanks Mike...I knew that once
            Message 5 of 22 , Feb 27, 2005
              mickm2au wrote:
              Subject: [new_distillers] Re: How much left in Column...

              (Mike wrote)Your VM still is working just fine. (snip)

              Thanks Mike...I knew that once the vapor dropped to 43% the product
              would dry up, but I thought it would happen with a sharper knee with
              not that much ethanol left in the brew. So I guess what you're
              saying is the drop in ethanol content of the vapor leaving the
              boiler is more linear and the separation from the water occurs
              mainly at the T junction, but can only occur if the vapor
              concentration is >43%.
              With a normal sugar wash brew does the 43% vapor comprise of mainly
              other compounds so as less ethanol is left in the boiler? wheras in
              my brew it contained only ethanol.
              ===============
              Hi Mick,

              You are withdrawing ethanol from the still in a linear manner, so it follows
              that the % mix of the vapour decreases in the same way. However, there is
              NO separation from the water at the T junction! All the separation occurs
              inside the still and what you are withdrawing is what happens to be present
              at the top of the still, all the way from 95-96% down to 43%. At the power
              you are (correctly) running at, the drop should be quite sudden, but the
              "slowness" you experienced would be expected if you already had a fairly
              pure mix of ethanol/water in the boiler. With an ordinary sugar wash
              (stripped of course) you are quite right. The tails contain a witches' brew
              of compounds that all have a higher boiling point than ethanol, but
              separation on boiling being what it is (see Raoult's Law) you will always
              have quite a bit of ethanol mixed in with the tails. That is why it pays to
              save the tails and chuck them into your next stripping run ... so you can
              recover that "masked" ethanol.

              With 96% on your trial run, it sounds as though you are doing things exactly
              right :-))

              All the best,
              Mike N
            • mickm2au
              ... it follows ... there is ... separation occurs ... be present ... the power ... but the ... fairly ... wash ... witches brew ... but ... always ... it pays
              Message 6 of 22 , Feb 27, 2005
                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Nixon" <mike@s...>
                wrote:
                > Hi Mick,
                >
                > You are withdrawing ethanol from the still in a linear manner, so
                it follows
                > that the % mix of the vapour decreases in the same way. However,
                there is
                > NO separation from the water at the T junction! All the
                separation occurs
                > inside the still and what you are withdrawing is what happens to
                be present
                > at the top of the still, all the way from 95-96% down to 43%. At
                the power
                > you are (correctly) running at, the drop should be quite sudden,
                but the
                > "slowness" you experienced would be expected if you already had a
                fairly
                > pure mix of ethanol/water in the boiler. With an ordinary sugar
                wash
                > (stripped of course) you are quite right. The tails contain a
                witches' brew
                > of compounds that all have a higher boiling point than ethanol,
                but
                > separation on boiling being what it is (see Raoult's Law) you will
                always
                > have quite a bit of ethanol mixed in with the tails. That is why
                it pays to
                > save the tails and chuck them into your next stripping run ... so
                you can
                > recover that "masked" ethanol.
                >
                > With 96% on your trial run, it sounds as though you are doing
                things exactly
                > right :-))
                >
                > All the best,
                > Mike N

                Thanks again Mike...we'll put down another sugar wash and try it.
                I'll post some photos when we've tidied up a couple of bits. We've
                just installed a shotgun reflux condenser as we're using a small
                pump and evaporative cooling and had trouble pushing water through
                the original coil we made. But with the new condenser the evap
                cooling works terrific, only need about 20-30 litres of water
                circulating.

                Mickm
              • abbababbaccc
                Hi Mike, Would you mind explaining what all factors are involved in this drying up before tails? When I had my VM system I was able to make whiskey with it,
                Message 7 of 22 , Feb 28, 2005
                  Hi Mike,

                  Would you mind explaining what all factors are involved in
                  this "drying up" before tails? When I had my VM system I was able to
                  make whiskey with it, ie. quite a lot of tails were coming out. In my
                  case I had 64mm (2.5") column filled with amphora mesh and ~1500W was
                  reaching the condenser (~14"/s vaporspeed). So basically I'm asking
                  what's the difference in my setup, why did the tails bleed in? I
                  don't have VM system right now, so I might build another one (maybe
                  aircooled) if you can promise me automated shutdown before tails :)
                  (you can never have too many stills, now can you?).

                  Greetz, Riku


                  Mike wrote:

                  > the downward path via the side valve. However, by the time the
                  vapor
                  > reaches 43% ethanol the density of the ethanol/steam mix has fallen
                  to the
                  > same as that of air (ie. 1.0 times as dense), so the output of the
                  still
                  > will "dry up". Under usual circumstances this is fine, for with a
                  standard
                  > wash the tails become evident at around this point and you want the
                  still to
                  > stop producing. In your case, instead of the usual brew of
                • Mike Nixon
                  abbababbaccc wrote: Subject: [new_distillers] Re: How much left in Column... Hi Mike, Would you mind explaining what all factors are involved in this drying
                  Message 8 of 22 , Feb 28, 2005
                    abbababbaccc wrote:
                    Subject: [new_distillers] Re: How much left in Column...

                    Hi Mike,

                    Would you mind explaining what all factors are involved in
                    this "drying up" before tails? When I had my VM system I was able to
                    make whiskey with it, ie. quite a lot of tails were coming out. In my
                    case I had 64mm (2.5") column filled with amphora mesh and ~1500W was
                    reaching the condenser (~14"/s vaporspeed). So basically I'm asking
                    what's the difference in my setup, why did the tails bleed in? I
                    don't have VM system right now, so I might build another one (maybe
                    aircooled) if you can promise me automated shutdown before tails :)
                    (you can never have too many stills, now can you?).
                    ================
                    Hi Riku,

                    It's all to do with density of the vapor. If denser than the air
                    surrounding the still then it will tend to fall, and if less dense then it
                    will tend to rise. However, and it's a BIG however, that is affected by
                    vapor speed and geometry. If you blast dense vapor past an opening in the
                    side of the column, don't expect it to suddenly swerve round and go in the
                    opposite direction. The vapor speed in the mesh is a darn sight greater
                    than 14"/sec, no matter what your calculations are for an empty tube (and
                    they are correct!). Vapor emerging from the packing doesn't suddenly drop
                    down in speed to a sedate crawl, but erupts from the top of the packing in
                    jets. If you want to "persuade" some of that vapor to choose between an
                    upward or a downward path then you have to try and simulate static
                    conditions. You'll never achieve that of course, unless you provide a large
                    bulge with baffles in it right after the top of the packing, but you can go
                    a long way towards it by deliberately introducing vortices that swirl the
                    vapor around. That way, you stand a fifty-fifty chance that some of the
                    vapor will enter the side path and decide that "down" is a more restful
                    existence.

                    With what you had, I'm not surprised that tails got into the act. Remember,
                    the vapor is being pushed forcibly up the column ... it's not gently
                    drifting up. So the more power, the more grunt. If making whiskey, where
                    you want some of the tails to get up there, then that is good. However,
                    it's a bit of a balancing act with a VM setup, so if I were making whiskey
                    and wanted a quiet life, then I would go for LM every time ... and leave the
                    packing out. You don't have to worry about length of column then either, so
                    it's all on the plus side. Trying to make a cut based on percentage of
                    tails using a VM still is darned tricky. It can be done if you are cunning
                    enough, but unless you want to go into advanced vapor control theory and
                    very careful design then I don't recommend it. Both LM and VM have their
                    strengths and weaknesses. To keep life simple, I would go for either method
                    for vodka production, but LM for flavored spirits.

                    Trust that was confusing enough :-))

                    All the best,
                    Mike N
                  • abbababbaccc
                    Not confusing enough I m afraid :) So what vaporspeed would you recommend? Is 7-9 /s (empty column) good value for this application? Any clever design
                    Message 9 of 22 , Feb 28, 2005
                      Not confusing enough I'm afraid :) So what vaporspeed would you
                      recommend? Is 7-9"/s (empty column) good value for this application?
                      Any clever design suggestions to slow down the vaporspeed?

                      Greet, Riku

                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Nixon" <mike@s...>
                      wrote:
                      > abbababbaccc wrote:
                      > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: How much left in Column...
                      >
                      > Hi Mike,
                      >
                      > Would you mind explaining what all factors are involved in
                      > this "drying up" before tails? When I had my VM system I was able
                      to
                      > make whiskey with it, ie. quite a lot of tails were coming out. In
                      my
                      > case I had 64mm (2.5") column filled with amphora mesh and ~1500W
                      was
                      > reaching the condenser (~14"/s vaporspeed). So basically I'm asking
                      > what's the difference in my setup, why did the tails bleed in? I
                      > don't have VM system right now, so I might build another one (maybe
                      > aircooled) if you can promise me automated shutdown before tails :)
                      > (you can never have too many stills, now can you?).
                      > ================
                      > Hi Riku,
                      >
                      > It's all to do with density of the vapor. If denser than the air
                      > surrounding the still then it will tend to fall, and if less dense
                      then it
                      > will tend to rise. However, and it's a BIG however, that is
                      affected by
                      > vapor speed and geometry. If you blast dense vapor past an
                      opening in the
                      > side of the column, don't expect it to suddenly swerve round and
                      go in the
                      > opposite direction. The vapor speed in the mesh is a darn sight
                      greater
                      > than 14"/sec, no matter what your calculations are for an empty
                      tube (and
                      > they are correct!). Vapor emerging from the packing doesn't
                      suddenly drop
                      > down in speed to a sedate crawl, but erupts from the top of the
                      packing in
                      > jets. If you want to "persuade" some of that vapor to choose
                      between an
                      > upward or a downward path then you have to try and simulate static
                      > conditions. You'll never achieve that of course, unless you
                      provide a large
                      > bulge with baffles in it right after the top of the packing, but
                      you can go
                      > a long way towards it by deliberately introducing vortices that
                      swirl the
                      > vapor around. That way, you stand a fifty-fifty chance that some
                      of the
                      > vapor will enter the side path and decide that "down" is a more
                      restful
                      > existence.
                      >
                      > With what you had, I'm not surprised that tails got into the act.
                      Remember,
                      > the vapor is being pushed forcibly up the column ... it's not
                      gently
                      > drifting up. So the more power, the more grunt. If making
                      whiskey, where
                      > you want some of the tails to get up there, then that is good.
                      However,
                      > it's a bit of a balancing act with a VM setup, so if I were making
                      whiskey
                      > and wanted a quiet life, then I would go for LM every time ... and
                      leave the
                      > packing out. You don't have to worry about length of column then
                      either, so
                      > it's all on the plus side. Trying to make a cut based on
                      percentage of
                      > tails using a VM still is darned tricky. It can be done if you
                      are cunning
                      > enough, but unless you want to go into advanced vapor control
                      theory and
                      > very careful design then I don't recommend it. Both LM and VM
                      have their
                      > strengths and weaknesses. To keep life simple, I would go for
                      either method
                      > for vodka production, but LM for flavored spirits.
                      >
                      > Trust that was confusing enough :-))
                      >
                      > All the best,
                      > Mike N
                    • abbababbaccc
                      I forget to ask, Mike what do you think of a product condenser going ddown at 45 degrees angle for VM? Greetz, Riku ... Riku, ... then it ... affected by ...
                      Message 10 of 22 , Feb 28, 2005
                        I forget to ask, Mike what do you think of a product condenser going
                        ddown at 45 degrees angle for VM?

                        Greetz, Riku

                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Nixon" <mike@s...> > Hi
                        Riku,
                        >
                        > It's all to do with density of the vapor. If denser than the air
                        > surrounding the still then it will tend to fall, and if less dense
                        then it
                        > will tend to rise. However, and it's a BIG however, that is
                        affected by
                        > vapor speed and geometry. If you blast dense vapor past an
                        opening in the
                        > side of the column, don't expect it to suddenly swerve round and
                        go in the
                        > opposite direction. The vapor speed in the mesh is a darn sight
                        greater
                        > than 14"/sec, no matter what your calculations are for an empty
                        tube (and
                        > they are correct!). Vapor emerging from the packing doesn't
                        suddenly drop
                        > down in speed to a sedate crawl, but erupts from the top of the
                        packing in
                        > jets. If you want to "persuade" some of that vapor to choose
                        between an
                        > upward or a downward path then you have to try and simulate static
                        > conditions. You'll never achieve that of course, unless you
                        provide a large
                        > bulge with baffles in it right after the top of the packing, but
                        you can go
                        > a long way towards it by deliberately introducing vortices that
                        swirl the
                        > vapor around. That way, you stand a fifty-fifty chance that some
                        of the
                        > vapor will enter the side path and decide that "down" is a more
                        restful
                        > existence.
                        >
                        > With what you had, I'm not surprised that tails got into the act.
                        Remember,
                        > the vapor is being pushed forcibly up the column ... it's not
                        gently
                        > drifting up. So the more power, the more grunt. If making
                        whiskey, where
                        > you want some of the tails to get up there, then that is good.
                        However,
                        > it's a bit of a balancing act with a VM setup, so if I were making
                        whiskey
                        > and wanted a quiet life, then I would go for LM every time ... and
                        leave the
                        > packing out. You don't have to worry about length of column then
                        either, so
                        > it's all on the plus side. Trying to make a cut based on
                        percentage of
                        > tails using a VM still is darned tricky. It can be done if you
                        are cunning
                        > enough, but unless you want to go into advanced vapor control
                        theory and
                        > very careful design then I don't recommend it. Both LM and VM
                        have their
                        > strengths and weaknesses. To keep life simple, I would go for
                        either method
                        > for vodka production, but LM for flavored spirits.
                        >
                        > Trust that was confusing enough :-))
                        >
                        > All the best,
                        > Mike N
                      • Cary Rhodes
                        it was tolled off by the spirit gods. ... water) ... ml
                        Message 11 of 22 , Feb 28, 2005
                          it was tolled off by the spirit gods.





                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mickm2au" <mmorris2@b...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi All
                          >
                          > We've just built a VP still as per The Complete Distiller book and
                          > have just done the first test run (after a run thru with plain
                          water)
                          > I loaded up with 4 litres of water and 800ml of 77% spirit produced
                          > by my old short Euro Still column. I calculated that we should end
                          > up with about 640 ml if we got 95% out of it, as the heads and most
                          > of the tails had already been removed. We ended up with about 400
                          ml
                          > of >95% before the temp started to rise quickly and the product
                          > slowed down. We only have about 500 watts on the boiler at this
                          > stage. The column is 1 mtr X 50 mm with Amphora copper packing.
                          >
                          > What happened to the other 240 ml of spirit ? I would have thought
                          > that it all would have been pushed up the column by the higher temp
                          > stuff and not much would have stuck to the packing.
                          >
                          > Any thoughts ??
                          >
                          > Mickm
                        • Mike Nixon
                          abbababbaccc wrote: Subject: [new_distillers] Re: How much left in Column... Not confusing enough I m afraid :) So what vaporspeed would you recommend? Is
                          Message 12 of 22 , Feb 28, 2005
                            abbababbaccc wrote:
                            Subject: [new_distillers] Re: How much left in Column...

                            Not confusing enough I'm afraid :) So what vaporspeed would you
                            recommend? Is 7-9"/s (empty column) good value for this application?
                            Any clever design suggestions to slow down the vaporspeed?

                            Greet, Riku
                            =================
                            Damn! I'll have to try harder! :-))
                            In your case, with a "standard" column, 700-800W should do the trick.
                            Clever suggestions? From a thick old pensioner like me?? You've got to be
                            joking!!!
                            Anyway, I gave you the clue ... turbulence. Try to get around all that that
                            kinetic energy going upwards and make it work for you instead of against
                            you..

                            All the best,
                            Mike N
                          • Mike Nixon
                            abbababbaccc wrote: Subject: [new_distillers] Re: How much left in Column... I forget to ask, Mike what do you think of a product condenser going ddown at 45
                            Message 13 of 22 , Feb 28, 2005
                              abbababbaccc wrote:
                              Subject: [new_distillers] Re: How much left in Column...

                              I forget to ask, Mike what do you think of a product condenser going
                              ddown at 45 degrees angle for VM?
                              ===============
                              Hi Riku,

                              What do you think of a fireplace chimney going up at a 45 deg. angle?
                              Same principle ... it works, but needs to be longer.

                              All the best,
                              Mike N
                            • abbababbaccc
                              ... going ... angle? ... OK, I have two 1 meter pieces of 22mm convector pipe (each able to cool ~400W). I was thinking 1.6 meter column of 42mm pipe, 1
                              Message 14 of 22 , Feb 28, 2005
                                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Nixon" <mike@s...> wrote:
                                > abbababbaccc wrote:
                                > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: How much left in Column...
                                >
                                > I forget to ask, Mike what do you think of a product condenser
                                going
                                > ddown at 45 degrees angle for VM?
                                > ===============
                                > Hi Riku,
                                >
                                > What do you think of a fireplace chimney going up at a 45 deg.
                                angle?
                                > Same principle ... it works, but needs to be longer.
                                >
                                > All the best,
                                > Mike N

                                OK, I have two 1 meter pieces of 22mm convector pipe (each able to
                                cool ~400W). I was thinking 1.6 meter column of 42mm pipe, 1
                                convector close to vertical position as reflux condenser and another
                                at ~45 degrees downslope as a product condenser. Ambient cooling
                                would make that "fire & forget" type of a system and I have an idea
                                how to build that as a modular addition to my current ARC/VM/LM test
                                head. I guess I'll have to do some more testing with the ARC first
                                though (running low on vodka due to this damn flue and I promised to
                                test MrSvetsare's heads removal system).

                                Greetz, Riku
                              • mickm2au
                                ... But....we said our prayers and payed our dues !! ... and ... produced ... end ... most ... 400 ... thought ... temp
                                Message 15 of 22 , Feb 28, 2005
                                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Cary Rhodes"
                                  <rhodeseng@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > it was tolled off by the spirit gods.
                                  >

                                  But....we said our prayers and payed our dues !!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "mickm2au" <mmorris2@b...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi All
                                  > >
                                  > > We've just built a VP still as per The Complete Distiller book
                                  and
                                  > > have just done the first test run (after a run thru with plain
                                  > water)
                                  > > I loaded up with 4 litres of water and 800ml of 77% spirit
                                  produced
                                  > > by my old short Euro Still column. I calculated that we should
                                  end
                                  > > up with about 640 ml if we got 95% out of it, as the heads and
                                  most
                                  > > of the tails had already been removed. We ended up with about
                                  400
                                  > ml
                                  > > of >95% before the temp started to rise quickly and the product
                                  > > slowed down. We only have about 500 watts on the boiler at this
                                  > > stage. The column is 1 mtr X 50 mm with Amphora copper packing.
                                  > >
                                  > > What happened to the other 240 ml of spirit ? I would have
                                  thought
                                  > > that it all would have been pushed up the column by the higher
                                  temp
                                  > > stuff and not much would have stuck to the packing.
                                  > >
                                  > > Any thoughts ??
                                  > >
                                  > > Mickm
                                • Glenn
                                  Ah - that explains it; thought you were talking about the type of still Dick Cheney uses. Ooops...VP should read VC New Distillers group archives are at
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 1, 2005
                                    Ah - that explains it; thought you were talking about the type of still Dick Cheney uses.

                                    Ooops...VP should read VC





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                                  • Henry Stamp
                                    can you explain what LM and VM mean to this noobie? :) ... -- --henry
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 1, 2005
                                      can you explain what LM and VM mean to this noobie? :)


                                      Mike Nixon wrote:

                                      >Both LM and VM have their
                                      >strengths and weaknesses. To keep life simple, I would go for either method
                                      >for vodka production, but LM for flavored spirits.
                                      >
                                      >Trust that was confusing enough :-))
                                      >
                                      >All the best,
                                      >Mike N
                                      >
                                      >


                                      --
                                      --henry
                                    • Mike Nixon
                                      Henry Stamp wrote: Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: How much left in Column... can you explain what LM and VM mean to this noobie? :) =============== Hi
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Mar 1, 2005
                                        Henry Stamp wrote:
                                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Re: How much left in Column...

                                        can you explain what LM and VM mean to this noobie? :)
                                        ===============
                                        Hi Henry,
                                        LM = Liquid Management
                                        VM = Vapor Management
                                        With LM you manage the reflux ratio by controlling how much of the liquid
                                        condensed by the top condenser is diverted from returning to the column by
                                        withdrawing it as product, and with VM you manage the reflux ratio by
                                        withdrawing some of the vapor from the column before it reaches the top
                                        condenser, then condensing that as product.

                                        You will no doubt also see CM mentioned occasionally. This stands for
                                        Cooling Management, and means different things to different folks. With
                                        some it means putting cooling coils through the middle of the column in an
                                        attempt to control what happens inside. This is to be avoided at all costs,
                                        for it only serves to upset the separation process going on inside the
                                        packing, so making the still far less efficient. I would rename what they
                                        try to do as "Cooling Meddling"! With others (who do know what they are
                                        doing) it means managing the flow of cooling water through the top condenser
                                        in order to control how much vapor gets past it, and hence the reflux ratio.
                                        The vapor that makes it past that top condenser is collected and liquified
                                        in a side condenser as the product, just like you do with VM. This is
                                        sometimes quite a good technique to use, and has been around for a long
                                        time. However, it does not have the feature that VM offers of automatically
                                        stopping production towards the end of the main run, when the amount of
                                        ethanol in the vapor starts to reduce and the tails start to rise in the
                                        column. Nevertheless, that can be useful when making flavored spirits, for
                                        then you do want to be able to select parts of the heads and the tails.

                                        Hope all that makes sense :-))

                                        All the best,
                                        Mike N
                                      • Henry Stamp
                                        yes, it really helped clear up some stuff. im not sure i ll build a reflux column any time soon, but its still fascinating to learn about :) ... -- --henry
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Mar 1, 2005
                                          yes, it really helped clear up some stuff. im not sure i'll build a
                                          reflux column any time soon, but its still fascinating to learn about :)


                                          Mike Nixon wrote:

                                          >Hope all that makes sense :-))
                                          >
                                          >All the best,
                                          >Mike N
                                          >
                                          >


                                          --
                                          --henry
                                        • abbababbaccc
                                          Sorry to interrupt Mike, but CM has automated shutdown if adjusted properly. Assuming constant cooling when the boiling point of vapor increases the cooling
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Mar 1, 2005
                                            Sorry to interrupt Mike, but CM has automated shutdown if adjusted
                                            properly. Assuming constant cooling when the boiling point of vapor
                                            increases the cooling efficiency increases and output ceases. This of
                                            course requires that the output is pretty slow to start with. Best
                                            suited for air cooling, low wattage and power controller.

                                            Greetz, Riku

                                            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Nixon" <mike@s...> wrote:
                                            > time. However, it does not have the feature that VM offers of
                                            automatically
                                            > stopping production towards the end of the main run, when the
                                            amount of
                                            > ethanol in the vapor starts to reduce and the tails start to rise
                                            in the
                                            > column. Nevertheless, that can be useful when making flavored
                                            spirits, for
                                            > then you do want to be able to select parts of the heads and the
                                            tails.
                                            >
                                            > Hope all that makes sense :-))
                                            >
                                            > All the best,
                                            > Mike N
                                          • Mike Nixon
                                            abbababbaccc wrote: Subject: [new_distillers] Re: How much left in Column... Sorry to interrupt Mike, but CM has automated shutdown if adjusted properly.
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Mar 1, 2005
                                              abbababbaccc wrote:
                                              Subject: [new_distillers] Re: How much left in Column...

                                              Sorry to interrupt Mike, but CM has automated shutdown if adjusted
                                              properly. Assuming constant cooling when the boiling point of vapor
                                              increases the cooling efficiency increases and output ceases. This of
                                              course requires that the output is pretty slow to start with. Best
                                              suited for air cooling, low wattage and power controller.
                                              ================
                                              Tarue Riku ... but I was trying to be as general as possible. As you say,
                                              with careful "tweaking" then it can be made to shut down after the main run
                                              ... but it's quite a tricky balance to achieve and, as you say, you have to
                                              be running at a snail's pace.

                                              All the best,
                                              Mike N
                                            • abbababbaccc
                                              ... of ... you say, ... main run ... have to ... Indeed so, for quality you need to take your time (unfortunately). You can, as a matter of fact, achieve
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Mar 1, 2005
                                                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Nixon" <mike@s...> wrote:
                                                > abbababbaccc wrote:
                                                > Subject: [new_distillers] Re: How much left in Column...
                                                >
                                                > Sorry to interrupt Mike, but CM has automated shutdown if adjusted
                                                > properly. Assuming constant cooling when the boiling point of vapor
                                                > increases the cooling efficiency increases and output ceases. This
                                                of
                                                > course requires that the output is pretty slow to start with. Best
                                                > suited for air cooling, low wattage and power controller.
                                                > ================
                                                > Tarue Riku ... but I was trying to be as general as possible. As
                                                you say,
                                                > with careful "tweaking" then it can be made to shut down after the
                                                main run
                                                > ... but it's quite a tricky balance to achieve and, as you say, you
                                                have to
                                                > be running at a snail's pace.
                                                >
                                                > All the best,
                                                > Mike N

                                                Indeed so, for quality you need to take your time (unfortunately).
                                                You can, as a matter of fact, achieve shutdown inbetween heads and
                                                main run as well, but for that you'd better have 3-4 days to process
                                                25 liters mash (spirall still with column as an example). Still
                                                strugling to find a perfect balance of time versus quality versus
                                                trouble. Making whiskey on the other hand ... :)

                                                Greetz, Riku
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