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RE: [new_distillers] Re: Oak Boxes

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  • Toni Smith
    Yeah this is another very good point...but the aging of the timber used is also still very important Toni Smith ICQ 166838134 MSN
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 1 5:37 PM
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      Yeah this is another very good point...but the aging of the timber used
      is also still very important

      Toni Smith
      ICQ 166838134
      MSN tonimarie29@...

      The Engineer in me says this is one of the reasons why the barrels
      are shaped the way they are...........the other being to facilitate
      moving them (by rolling). You idea sounded good to me at the time as
      well, Tar. Boxes are easier that barrels to stack and easier to make.

      If you look at the way a barrel is constructed, you'll notice it's
      already pre-loaded (pre-warped) and held in that sprung condition
      with the hoops. The staves are curved and beveled to force a tight
      fit over a curving contour in two direction (up / down and
      circumferentially). The hoops force this tight fit, and there isn't
      a straght piece in the whole bunch! Everything is force-wedged
      together with nowhere to warp to.

      Regards,
      BS

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    • grayson_stewart66
      I m an engineer also and was surprised to find the number of wooden pipes used in the early years. A few are seen at this link
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 1 6:12 PM
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        I'm an engineer also and was surprised to find the number of wooden
        pipes used in the early years. A few are seen at this link
        http://www.sewerhistory.org/grfx/components/pipe-wood2.htm

        Most are round and vary rarely was there ever a wooden conduit
        formed in a "square". In a round structure the greatest stresses
        are usually on the inner most face - the primary area we want a good
        seal.

        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Toni Smith" <tonimarie@i...>
        wrote:
        > Yeah this is another very good point...but the aging of the timber
        used
        > is also still very important
        >
        > Toni Smith
        > ICQ 166838134
        > MSN tonimarie29@h...
        >
        > The Engineer in me says this is one of the reasons why the barrels
        > are shaped the way they are...........the other being to
        facilitate
        > moving them (by rolling). You idea sounded good to me at the time
        as
        > well, Tar. Boxes are easier that barrels to stack and easier to
        make.
        >
        > If you look at the way a barrel is constructed, you'll notice it's
        > already pre-loaded (pre-warped) and held in that sprung condition
        > with the hoops. The staves are curved and beveled to force a
        tight
        > fit over a curving contour in two direction (up / down and
        > circumferentially). The hoops force this tight fit, and there
        isn't
        > a straght piece in the whole bunch! Everything is force-wedged
        > together with nowhere to warp to.
        >
        > Regards,
        > BS
        >
        > ---
        > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
        > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
        > Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 30/01/2004
      • Brain Solenoid
        Wood Pipes...........must ve been real tastey water in the summer! Well...I ll bet their immune systems were stronger back then. Seattle had an extensive wood
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 1 6:48 PM
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          Wood Pipes...........must've been real tastey water in the summer!
          Well...I'll bet their immune systems were stronger back then.

          Seattle had an extensive wood pipe network as well and had some real
          issues with them during their big fire in June of 1889. The pipes
          and the low tides allowed downtown Seattle to go up in flames since
          many of the hydrant lines had decayed and there wasn't enough water
          pressure to overcome the leaks. I'm told it became a real
          controversy after the fire.

          I'm always amazed at just how many things were made of wood before
          the aluminum and steel industry became more affordable. Up until the
          1940's, there were still breweries in the U.S. that were using wood
          kegs in which to deliver beer. These kegs weren't chared, but must
          have still imparted some kind of flavor to the beer, which was also
          probably better because they didn't brew as much with those
          abominations: corn and rice.

          You get a lot of benefits from circular structure. One, there are no
          corners, so there are no stress concentration regions of the pipe.
          Second, because it is round, it sees all load, uniformaly over its
          cross section, for the least amount of material.
          However, I have gone to sushi bars and drank saki out of one of those
          square "box-cups". Great times, when I can remember them!

          Great to see there are others "of the trade" on-line!
          PS - I would have thought the greatest load would be at the extreme
          outer surface, where it not only takes the maximum bending loads (
          Stress = [M*C]/I ) but also the burst pressure ( Stress = F/A ). If
          a rigid pipe bend while pressurized it will rupture at the tensile
          extreme surface. Right?

          Regards, and don't take any wooden nickels!
          BS


          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "grayson_stewart66"
          <grayson_stewart66@y...> wrote:
          > I'm an engineer also and was surprised to find the number of wooden
          > pipes used in the early years. A few are seen at this link
          > http://www.sewerhistory.org/grfx/components/pipe-wood2.htm
          >
          > Most are round and vary rarely was there ever a wooden conduit
          > formed in a "square". In a round structure the greatest stresses
          > are usually on the inner most face - the primary area we want a
          good
          > seal.
        • Tarvus
          ... before ... have ... this ... high ... Yes Toni, It was well aged wood. The place I bought it from specialized in rare woods and all were kiln dried and
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 1 8:04 PM
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            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Toni Smith" <tonimarie@i...>
            wrote:
            > Ok a quick question....had the timber been aged for 1 to 2 years
            before
            > crafting (2 years is preferable)....if not then of course you would
            have
            > ended up with warping due to the timber still being green...I know
            this
            > well as my dad runs a sawmill and was an A+ student in woodwork at
            high
            > school
            >
            > Toni Smith
            > ICQ 166838134
            > MSN tonimarie29@h...

            Yes Toni,

            It was well aged wood. The place I bought it from specialized in
            rare woods and all were kiln dried and aged. This particular piece
            was also selected from a considerable number of pieces for its grain
            configuration and lack of warping in the warehouse.

            The moisture from the water would probably have a greater effect on
            warping the more aged the wood was since the aged wood would be
            drier. I was surprised to see how much the heat caused warping too.

            The basic point remains. Booze boxes don't work as well as barrels
            do. In fact, they don't work at all. I wish I could report
            otherwise.

            Tar
          • grayson_stewart66
            ... summer! Always glad to see a fellow engineer. :-) Actually some stayed in service for a really long time believe it or not. ... no ... pipe. ... extreme
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 1 9:37 PM
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              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Brain Solenoid"
              <brain_solenoid@y...> wrote:
              > Wood Pipes...........must've been real tastey water in the
              summer!

              Always glad to see a fellow engineer. :-)
              Actually some stayed in service for a really long time believe it
              or not.


              > You get a lot of benefits from circular structure. One, there are
              no
              > corners, so there are no stress concentration regions of the
              pipe.
              > Second, because it is round, it sees all load, uniformaly over its
              > cross section, for the least amount of material.
              > PS - I would have thought the greatest load would be at the
              extreme
              > outer surface, where it not only takes the maximum bending loads (
              > Stress = [M*C]/I ) but also the burst pressure ( Stress = F/A ).
              If
              > a rigid pipe bend while pressurized it will rupture at the tensile
              > extreme surface. Right?

              The outer surface would see the greatest stresses with internal
              pressure or true bending stresses. However, barrels aren't designed
              for internal stresses noted by the flat ends...and perhaps they are
              tapered to help prevent "true" bending streses (from trial and error
              I assume).

              When seasoning a barrel, the barrel is both filled with water
              and submereged so it will swell against the steel retaining hoops.
              After filling with spirits, the wetted inner surface will remain
              swelled an hopefully water (spirit) tight while the outer surface
              will dry.

              The few unused barrels I've seen have loose or floating steel
              hoops that are driven tight against the greater diamter wood staves
              before conditioning to create the constriction.

              I would love to have a wooden barrel filled with my own
              creation, but my product never lasts long enough to warrant the
              expense. :-)



              >
              > Regards, and don't take any wooden nickels!
              > BS
              >
              >
              > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "grayson_stewart66"
              > <grayson_stewart66@y...> wrote:
              > > I'm an engineer also and was surprised to find the number of
              wooden
              > > pipes used in the early years. A few are seen at this link
              > > http://www.sewerhistory.org/grfx/components/pipe-wood2.htm
              > >
              > > Most are round and vary rarely was there ever a wooden conduit
              > > formed in a "square". In a round structure the greatest
              stresses
              > > are usually on the inner most face - the primary area we want a
              > good
              > > seal.
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