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RE: [new_distillers] Re: Oak Boxes

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  • Toni Smith
    Ok a quick question....had the timber been aged for 1 to 2 years before crafting (2 years is preferable)....if not then of course you would have ended up with
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
      Ok a quick question....had the timber been aged for 1 to 2 years before
      crafting (2 years is preferable)....if not then of course you would have
      ended up with warping due to the timber still being green...I know this
      well as my dad runs a sawmill and was an A+ student in woodwork at high
      school

      Toni Smith
      ICQ 166838134
      MSN tonimarie29@...

      I recently experimented with oak boxes and must report that Leigh is
      absolutely correct!
      I charred the inside of them with a torch and my problems began. The
      heat and drying from the charring warped the boards slightly. I was,
      with considerable difficulty, able to fit them together nonetheless,
      strap them tightly in 3 directions with the rachetable straps, and I
      soaked the boxes inside and out for 2 weeks to swell the wood and
      seal the joints.

      The boxes warped even more after soaking and leaked like a sieve! I
      now have a triple lifetime supply of charred scrap white oak! I will
      cut them into pieces and use the charred chips and chunks to oak
      spirits stored in other type containers.

      The concept was great, but the execution was a miserable failure.
      Live and learn!

      Tar
      ps - anybody wanna buy some white oak???

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    • Toni Smith
      Yeah this is another very good point...but the aging of the timber used is also still very important Toni Smith ICQ 166838134 MSN
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
        Yeah this is another very good point...but the aging of the timber used
        is also still very important

        Toni Smith
        ICQ 166838134
        MSN tonimarie29@...

        The Engineer in me says this is one of the reasons why the barrels
        are shaped the way they are...........the other being to facilitate
        moving them (by rolling). You idea sounded good to me at the time as
        well, Tar. Boxes are easier that barrels to stack and easier to make.

        If you look at the way a barrel is constructed, you'll notice it's
        already pre-loaded (pre-warped) and held in that sprung condition
        with the hoops. The staves are curved and beveled to force a tight
        fit over a curving contour in two direction (up / down and
        circumferentially). The hoops force this tight fit, and there isn't
        a straght piece in the whole bunch! Everything is force-wedged
        together with nowhere to warp to.

        Regards,
        BS

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      • grayson_stewart66
        I m an engineer also and was surprised to find the number of wooden pipes used in the early years. A few are seen at this link
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
          I'm an engineer also and was surprised to find the number of wooden
          pipes used in the early years. A few are seen at this link
          http://www.sewerhistory.org/grfx/components/pipe-wood2.htm

          Most are round and vary rarely was there ever a wooden conduit
          formed in a "square". In a round structure the greatest stresses
          are usually on the inner most face - the primary area we want a good
          seal.

          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Toni Smith" <tonimarie@i...>
          wrote:
          > Yeah this is another very good point...but the aging of the timber
          used
          > is also still very important
          >
          > Toni Smith
          > ICQ 166838134
          > MSN tonimarie29@h...
          >
          > The Engineer in me says this is one of the reasons why the barrels
          > are shaped the way they are...........the other being to
          facilitate
          > moving them (by rolling). You idea sounded good to me at the time
          as
          > well, Tar. Boxes are easier that barrels to stack and easier to
          make.
          >
          > If you look at the way a barrel is constructed, you'll notice it's
          > already pre-loaded (pre-warped) and held in that sprung condition
          > with the hoops. The staves are curved and beveled to force a
          tight
          > fit over a curving contour in two direction (up / down and
          > circumferentially). The hoops force this tight fit, and there
          isn't
          > a straght piece in the whole bunch! Everything is force-wedged
          > together with nowhere to warp to.
          >
          > Regards,
          > BS
          >
          > ---
          > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
          > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
          > Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 30/01/2004
        • Brain Solenoid
          Wood Pipes...........must ve been real tastey water in the summer! Well...I ll bet their immune systems were stronger back then. Seattle had an extensive wood
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
            Wood Pipes...........must've been real tastey water in the summer!
            Well...I'll bet their immune systems were stronger back then.

            Seattle had an extensive wood pipe network as well and had some real
            issues with them during their big fire in June of 1889. The pipes
            and the low tides allowed downtown Seattle to go up in flames since
            many of the hydrant lines had decayed and there wasn't enough water
            pressure to overcome the leaks. I'm told it became a real
            controversy after the fire.

            I'm always amazed at just how many things were made of wood before
            the aluminum and steel industry became more affordable. Up until the
            1940's, there were still breweries in the U.S. that were using wood
            kegs in which to deliver beer. These kegs weren't chared, but must
            have still imparted some kind of flavor to the beer, which was also
            probably better because they didn't brew as much with those
            abominations: corn and rice.

            You get a lot of benefits from circular structure. One, there are no
            corners, so there are no stress concentration regions of the pipe.
            Second, because it is round, it sees all load, uniformaly over its
            cross section, for the least amount of material.
            However, I have gone to sushi bars and drank saki out of one of those
            square "box-cups". Great times, when I can remember them!

            Great to see there are others "of the trade" on-line!
            PS - I would have thought the greatest load would be at the extreme
            outer surface, where it not only takes the maximum bending loads (
            Stress = [M*C]/I ) but also the burst pressure ( Stress = F/A ). If
            a rigid pipe bend while pressurized it will rupture at the tensile
            extreme surface. Right?

            Regards, and don't take any wooden nickels!
            BS


            --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "grayson_stewart66"
            <grayson_stewart66@y...> wrote:
            > I'm an engineer also and was surprised to find the number of wooden
            > pipes used in the early years. A few are seen at this link
            > http://www.sewerhistory.org/grfx/components/pipe-wood2.htm
            >
            > Most are round and vary rarely was there ever a wooden conduit
            > formed in a "square". In a round structure the greatest stresses
            > are usually on the inner most face - the primary area we want a
            good
            > seal.
          • Tarvus
            ... before ... have ... this ... high ... Yes Toni, It was well aged wood. The place I bought it from specialized in rare woods and all were kiln dried and
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Toni Smith" <tonimarie@i...>
              wrote:
              > Ok a quick question....had the timber been aged for 1 to 2 years
              before
              > crafting (2 years is preferable)....if not then of course you would
              have
              > ended up with warping due to the timber still being green...I know
              this
              > well as my dad runs a sawmill and was an A+ student in woodwork at
              high
              > school
              >
              > Toni Smith
              > ICQ 166838134
              > MSN tonimarie29@h...

              Yes Toni,

              It was well aged wood. The place I bought it from specialized in
              rare woods and all were kiln dried and aged. This particular piece
              was also selected from a considerable number of pieces for its grain
              configuration and lack of warping in the warehouse.

              The moisture from the water would probably have a greater effect on
              warping the more aged the wood was since the aged wood would be
              drier. I was surprised to see how much the heat caused warping too.

              The basic point remains. Booze boxes don't work as well as barrels
              do. In fact, they don't work at all. I wish I could report
              otherwise.

              Tar
            • grayson_stewart66
              ... summer! Always glad to see a fellow engineer. :-) Actually some stayed in service for a really long time believe it or not. ... no ... pipe. ... extreme
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Brain Solenoid"
                <brain_solenoid@y...> wrote:
                > Wood Pipes...........must've been real tastey water in the
                summer!

                Always glad to see a fellow engineer. :-)
                Actually some stayed in service for a really long time believe it
                or not.


                > You get a lot of benefits from circular structure. One, there are
                no
                > corners, so there are no stress concentration regions of the
                pipe.
                > Second, because it is round, it sees all load, uniformaly over its
                > cross section, for the least amount of material.
                > PS - I would have thought the greatest load would be at the
                extreme
                > outer surface, where it not only takes the maximum bending loads (
                > Stress = [M*C]/I ) but also the burst pressure ( Stress = F/A ).
                If
                > a rigid pipe bend while pressurized it will rupture at the tensile
                > extreme surface. Right?

                The outer surface would see the greatest stresses with internal
                pressure or true bending stresses. However, barrels aren't designed
                for internal stresses noted by the flat ends...and perhaps they are
                tapered to help prevent "true" bending streses (from trial and error
                I assume).

                When seasoning a barrel, the barrel is both filled with water
                and submereged so it will swell against the steel retaining hoops.
                After filling with spirits, the wetted inner surface will remain
                swelled an hopefully water (spirit) tight while the outer surface
                will dry.

                The few unused barrels I've seen have loose or floating steel
                hoops that are driven tight against the greater diamter wood staves
                before conditioning to create the constriction.

                I would love to have a wooden barrel filled with my own
                creation, but my product never lasts long enough to warrant the
                expense. :-)



                >
                > Regards, and don't take any wooden nickels!
                > BS
                >
                >
                > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "grayson_stewart66"
                > <grayson_stewart66@y...> wrote:
                > > I'm an engineer also and was surprised to find the number of
                wooden
                > > pipes used in the early years. A few are seen at this link
                > > http://www.sewerhistory.org/grfx/components/pipe-wood2.htm
                > >
                > > Most are round and vary rarely was there ever a wooden conduit
                > > formed in a "square". In a round structure the greatest
                stresses
                > > are usually on the inner most face - the primary area we want a
                > good
                > > seal.
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