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Re: [new_distillers] Re: Oak Boxes

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  • Rana Pipiens
    Tarvus, when this subject come up in the group I relayed the ide to a winemakers group and received a reply of NO way from a member that had experienced the
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
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      Tarvus, when this subject come up in the group I relayed the ide to a winemakers group and received a reply of "NO way" from a member that had experienced the same frustrating thing. Rana

      Tarvus <tarvus@...> wrote:--- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Murphy-Marsh, Leigh"
      <Leigh.Murphy-Marsh@w...> wrote:
      > True boxes have advantages but barrels expose more surface area to
      the
      > liquid for the same amount of timber.
      > It should work but not being a carpenter there must be difficulties
      in
      > keeping it sealed when the timber expands.

      I recently experimented with oak boxes and must report that Leigh is
      absolutely correct!

      I spend $90 on a beautiful 1" X 12" 12 foot long white oak plank. My
      neighbor is a cabinet maker and for the price of a couple of quarts
      convinced him to build me two cubes sized to hold approximately 5
      gallons each. He crafted some very precise tongue in groove joints
      and the cubical boxes fit together like a chinese jigsaw puzzle with
      no nails, screws or glue. They were designed to be held together by
      nylon web strapping tightened with rachets.

      I charred the inside of them with a torch and my problems began. The
      heat and drying from the charring warped the boards slightly. I was,
      with considerable difficulty, able to fit them together nonetheless,
      strap them tightly in 3 directions with the rachetable straps, and I
      soaked the boxes inside and out for 2 weeks to swell the wood and
      seal the joints.

      The boxes warped even more after soaking and leaked like a sieve! I
      now have a triple lifetime supply of charred scrap white oak! I will
      cut them into pieces and use the charred chips and chunks to oak
      spirits stored in other type containers.

      The concept was great, but the execution was a miserable failure.
      Live and learn!

      Tar
      ps - anybody wanna buy some white oak???



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    • Brain Solenoid
      The Engineer in me says this is one of the reasons why the barrels are shaped the way they are...........the other being to facilitate moving them (by
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
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        The Engineer in me says this is one of the reasons why the barrels
        are shaped the way they are...........the other being to facilitate
        moving them (by rolling). You idea sounded good to me at the time as
        well, Tar. Boxes are easier that barrels to stack and easier to make.

        If you look at the way a barrel is constructed, you'll notice it's
        already pre-loaded (pre-warped) and held in that sprung condition
        with the hoops. The staves are curved and beveled to force a tight
        fit over a curving contour in two direction (up / down and
        circumferentially). The hoops force this tight fit, and there isn't
        a straght piece in the whole bunch! Everything is force-wedged
        together with nowhere to warp to.

        Regards,
        BS


        > I charred the inside of them with a torch and my problems began.
        The
        > heat and drying from the charring warped the boards slightly. I
        was,
        > with considerable difficulty, able to fit them together
        nonetheless,
        > strap them tightly in 3 directions with the rachetable straps, and
        I
        > soaked the boxes inside and out for 2 weeks to swell the wood and
        > seal the joints.
        >
        > The boxes warped even more after soaking and leaked like a sieve!
        I
        > now have a triple lifetime supply of charred scrap white oak! I
        will
        > cut them into pieces and use the charred chips and chunks to oak
        > spirits stored in other type containers.
        >
        > The concept was great, but the execution was a miserable failure.
        > Live and learn!
        >
        > Tar
        > ps - anybody wanna buy some white oak???
      • Toni Smith
        Ok a quick question....had the timber been aged for 1 to 2 years before crafting (2 years is preferable)....if not then of course you would have ended up with
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
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          Ok a quick question....had the timber been aged for 1 to 2 years before
          crafting (2 years is preferable)....if not then of course you would have
          ended up with warping due to the timber still being green...I know this
          well as my dad runs a sawmill and was an A+ student in woodwork at high
          school

          Toni Smith
          ICQ 166838134
          MSN tonimarie29@...

          I recently experimented with oak boxes and must report that Leigh is
          absolutely correct!
          I charred the inside of them with a torch and my problems began. The
          heat and drying from the charring warped the boards slightly. I was,
          with considerable difficulty, able to fit them together nonetheless,
          strap them tightly in 3 directions with the rachetable straps, and I
          soaked the boxes inside and out for 2 weeks to swell the wood and
          seal the joints.

          The boxes warped even more after soaking and leaked like a sieve! I
          now have a triple lifetime supply of charred scrap white oak! I will
          cut them into pieces and use the charred chips and chunks to oak
          spirits stored in other type containers.

          The concept was great, but the execution was a miserable failure.
          Live and learn!

          Tar
          ps - anybody wanna buy some white oak???

          ---
          Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
          Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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        • Toni Smith
          Yeah this is another very good point...but the aging of the timber used is also still very important Toni Smith ICQ 166838134 MSN
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
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            Yeah this is another very good point...but the aging of the timber used
            is also still very important

            Toni Smith
            ICQ 166838134
            MSN tonimarie29@...

            The Engineer in me says this is one of the reasons why the barrels
            are shaped the way they are...........the other being to facilitate
            moving them (by rolling). You idea sounded good to me at the time as
            well, Tar. Boxes are easier that barrels to stack and easier to make.

            If you look at the way a barrel is constructed, you'll notice it's
            already pre-loaded (pre-warped) and held in that sprung condition
            with the hoops. The staves are curved and beveled to force a tight
            fit over a curving contour in two direction (up / down and
            circumferentially). The hoops force this tight fit, and there isn't
            a straght piece in the whole bunch! Everything is force-wedged
            together with nowhere to warp to.

            Regards,
            BS

            ---
            Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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          • grayson_stewart66
            I m an engineer also and was surprised to find the number of wooden pipes used in the early years. A few are seen at this link
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
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              I'm an engineer also and was surprised to find the number of wooden
              pipes used in the early years. A few are seen at this link
              http://www.sewerhistory.org/grfx/components/pipe-wood2.htm

              Most are round and vary rarely was there ever a wooden conduit
              formed in a "square". In a round structure the greatest stresses
              are usually on the inner most face - the primary area we want a good
              seal.

              --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Toni Smith" <tonimarie@i...>
              wrote:
              > Yeah this is another very good point...but the aging of the timber
              used
              > is also still very important
              >
              > Toni Smith
              > ICQ 166838134
              > MSN tonimarie29@h...
              >
              > The Engineer in me says this is one of the reasons why the barrels
              > are shaped the way they are...........the other being to
              facilitate
              > moving them (by rolling). You idea sounded good to me at the time
              as
              > well, Tar. Boxes are easier that barrels to stack and easier to
              make.
              >
              > If you look at the way a barrel is constructed, you'll notice it's
              > already pre-loaded (pre-warped) and held in that sprung condition
              > with the hoops. The staves are curved and beveled to force a
              tight
              > fit over a curving contour in two direction (up / down and
              > circumferentially). The hoops force this tight fit, and there
              isn't
              > a straght piece in the whole bunch! Everything is force-wedged
              > together with nowhere to warp to.
              >
              > Regards,
              > BS
              >
              > ---
              > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
              > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
              > Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 30/01/2004
            • Brain Solenoid
              Wood Pipes...........must ve been real tastey water in the summer! Well...I ll bet their immune systems were stronger back then. Seattle had an extensive wood
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
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                Wood Pipes...........must've been real tastey water in the summer!
                Well...I'll bet their immune systems were stronger back then.

                Seattle had an extensive wood pipe network as well and had some real
                issues with them during their big fire in June of 1889. The pipes
                and the low tides allowed downtown Seattle to go up in flames since
                many of the hydrant lines had decayed and there wasn't enough water
                pressure to overcome the leaks. I'm told it became a real
                controversy after the fire.

                I'm always amazed at just how many things were made of wood before
                the aluminum and steel industry became more affordable. Up until the
                1940's, there were still breweries in the U.S. that were using wood
                kegs in which to deliver beer. These kegs weren't chared, but must
                have still imparted some kind of flavor to the beer, which was also
                probably better because they didn't brew as much with those
                abominations: corn and rice.

                You get a lot of benefits from circular structure. One, there are no
                corners, so there are no stress concentration regions of the pipe.
                Second, because it is round, it sees all load, uniformaly over its
                cross section, for the least amount of material.
                However, I have gone to sushi bars and drank saki out of one of those
                square "box-cups". Great times, when I can remember them!

                Great to see there are others "of the trade" on-line!
                PS - I would have thought the greatest load would be at the extreme
                outer surface, where it not only takes the maximum bending loads (
                Stress = [M*C]/I ) but also the burst pressure ( Stress = F/A ). If
                a rigid pipe bend while pressurized it will rupture at the tensile
                extreme surface. Right?

                Regards, and don't take any wooden nickels!
                BS


                --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "grayson_stewart66"
                <grayson_stewart66@y...> wrote:
                > I'm an engineer also and was surprised to find the number of wooden
                > pipes used in the early years. A few are seen at this link
                > http://www.sewerhistory.org/grfx/components/pipe-wood2.htm
                >
                > Most are round and vary rarely was there ever a wooden conduit
                > formed in a "square". In a round structure the greatest stresses
                > are usually on the inner most face - the primary area we want a
                good
                > seal.
              • Tarvus
                ... before ... have ... this ... high ... Yes Toni, It was well aged wood. The place I bought it from specialized in rare woods and all were kiln dried and
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
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                  --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Toni Smith" <tonimarie@i...>
                  wrote:
                  > Ok a quick question....had the timber been aged for 1 to 2 years
                  before
                  > crafting (2 years is preferable)....if not then of course you would
                  have
                  > ended up with warping due to the timber still being green...I know
                  this
                  > well as my dad runs a sawmill and was an A+ student in woodwork at
                  high
                  > school
                  >
                  > Toni Smith
                  > ICQ 166838134
                  > MSN tonimarie29@h...

                  Yes Toni,

                  It was well aged wood. The place I bought it from specialized in
                  rare woods and all were kiln dried and aged. This particular piece
                  was also selected from a considerable number of pieces for its grain
                  configuration and lack of warping in the warehouse.

                  The moisture from the water would probably have a greater effect on
                  warping the more aged the wood was since the aged wood would be
                  drier. I was surprised to see how much the heat caused warping too.

                  The basic point remains. Booze boxes don't work as well as barrels
                  do. In fact, they don't work at all. I wish I could report
                  otherwise.

                  Tar
                • grayson_stewart66
                  ... summer! Always glad to see a fellow engineer. :-) Actually some stayed in service for a really long time believe it or not. ... no ... pipe. ... extreme
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
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                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Brain Solenoid"
                    <brain_solenoid@y...> wrote:
                    > Wood Pipes...........must've been real tastey water in the
                    summer!

                    Always glad to see a fellow engineer. :-)
                    Actually some stayed in service for a really long time believe it
                    or not.


                    > You get a lot of benefits from circular structure. One, there are
                    no
                    > corners, so there are no stress concentration regions of the
                    pipe.
                    > Second, because it is round, it sees all load, uniformaly over its
                    > cross section, for the least amount of material.
                    > PS - I would have thought the greatest load would be at the
                    extreme
                    > outer surface, where it not only takes the maximum bending loads (
                    > Stress = [M*C]/I ) but also the burst pressure ( Stress = F/A ).
                    If
                    > a rigid pipe bend while pressurized it will rupture at the tensile
                    > extreme surface. Right?

                    The outer surface would see the greatest stresses with internal
                    pressure or true bending stresses. However, barrels aren't designed
                    for internal stresses noted by the flat ends...and perhaps they are
                    tapered to help prevent "true" bending streses (from trial and error
                    I assume).

                    When seasoning a barrel, the barrel is both filled with water
                    and submereged so it will swell against the steel retaining hoops.
                    After filling with spirits, the wetted inner surface will remain
                    swelled an hopefully water (spirit) tight while the outer surface
                    will dry.

                    The few unused barrels I've seen have loose or floating steel
                    hoops that are driven tight against the greater diamter wood staves
                    before conditioning to create the constriction.

                    I would love to have a wooden barrel filled with my own
                    creation, but my product never lasts long enough to warrant the
                    expense. :-)



                    >
                    > Regards, and don't take any wooden nickels!
                    > BS
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "grayson_stewart66"
                    > <grayson_stewart66@y...> wrote:
                    > > I'm an engineer also and was surprised to find the number of
                    wooden
                    > > pipes used in the early years. A few are seen at this link
                    > > http://www.sewerhistory.org/grfx/components/pipe-wood2.htm
                    > >
                    > > Most are round and vary rarely was there ever a wooden conduit
                    > > formed in a "square". In a round structure the greatest
                    stresses
                    > > are usually on the inner most face - the primary area we want a
                    > good
                    > > seal.
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