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Oak Boxes

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  • ranah2o
    Just for someone who might be interested; while reading posts in amead group, someone inquired about the availability of small oak casks and someone else
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 11, 2004
      Just for someone who might be interested; while reading posts in
      amead group, someone inquired about the availability of small oak
      casks and someone else replied suggesting that. sinc mead or wine
      does'nt know the difference beteeen a box or cask and since it is
      easier to build a box than a cask, that a box might suit the need. I
      think that they even said that someone was making the boxes
      commercially. it was mentioned also that the boxes would be easier to
      stack. Rana
    • Murphy-Marsh, Leigh
      True boxes have advantages but barrels expose more surface area to the liquid for the same amount of timber. It should work but not being a carpenter there
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 11, 2004
        True boxes have advantages but barrels expose more surface area to the
        liquid for the same amount of timber.
        It should work but not being a carpenter there must be difficulties in
        keeping it sealed when the timber expands.
        Cheers,
        Leigh.

        Message: 11
        Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 01:56:49 -0000
        From: "ranah2o" <ranah2o@...>
        Subject: Oak Boxes

        Just for someone who might be interested; while reading posts in
        amead group, someone inquired about the availability of small oak
        casks and someone else replied suggesting that. sinc mead or wine
        does'nt know the difference beteeen a box or cask and since it is
        easier to build a box than a cask, that a box might suit the need. I
        think that they even said that someone was making the boxes
        commercially. it was mentioned also that the boxes would be easier to
        stack. Rana
      • Tarvus
        ... the ... in ... I recently experimented with oak boxes and must report that Leigh is absolutely correct! I spend $90 on a beautiful 1 X 12 12 foot long
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Murphy-Marsh, Leigh"
          <Leigh.Murphy-Marsh@w...> wrote:
          > True boxes have advantages but barrels expose more surface area to
          the
          > liquid for the same amount of timber.
          > It should work but not being a carpenter there must be difficulties
          in
          > keeping it sealed when the timber expands.

          I recently experimented with oak boxes and must report that Leigh is
          absolutely correct!

          I spend $90 on a beautiful 1" X 12" 12 foot long white oak plank. My
          neighbor is a cabinet maker and for the price of a couple of quarts
          convinced him to build me two cubes sized to hold approximately 5
          gallons each. He crafted some very precise tongue in groove joints
          and the cubical boxes fit together like a chinese jigsaw puzzle with
          no nails, screws or glue. They were designed to be held together by
          nylon web strapping tightened with rachets.

          I charred the inside of them with a torch and my problems began. The
          heat and drying from the charring warped the boards slightly. I was,
          with considerable difficulty, able to fit them together nonetheless,
          strap them tightly in 3 directions with the rachetable straps, and I
          soaked the boxes inside and out for 2 weeks to swell the wood and
          seal the joints.

          The boxes warped even more after soaking and leaked like a sieve! I
          now have a triple lifetime supply of charred scrap white oak! I will
          cut them into pieces and use the charred chips and chunks to oak
          spirits stored in other type containers.

          The concept was great, but the execution was a miserable failure.
          Live and learn!

          Tar
          ps - anybody wanna buy some white oak???
        • Rana Pipiens
          Tarvus, when this subject come up in the group I relayed the ide to a winemakers group and received a reply of NO way from a member that had experienced the
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
            Tarvus, when this subject come up in the group I relayed the ide to a winemakers group and received a reply of "NO way" from a member that had experienced the same frustrating thing. Rana

            Tarvus <tarvus@...> wrote:--- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Murphy-Marsh, Leigh"
            <Leigh.Murphy-Marsh@w...> wrote:
            > True boxes have advantages but barrels expose more surface area to
            the
            > liquid for the same amount of timber.
            > It should work but not being a carpenter there must be difficulties
            in
            > keeping it sealed when the timber expands.

            I recently experimented with oak boxes and must report that Leigh is
            absolutely correct!

            I spend $90 on a beautiful 1" X 12" 12 foot long white oak plank. My
            neighbor is a cabinet maker and for the price of a couple of quarts
            convinced him to build me two cubes sized to hold approximately 5
            gallons each. He crafted some very precise tongue in groove joints
            and the cubical boxes fit together like a chinese jigsaw puzzle with
            no nails, screws or glue. They were designed to be held together by
            nylon web strapping tightened with rachets.

            I charred the inside of them with a torch and my problems began. The
            heat and drying from the charring warped the boards slightly. I was,
            with considerable difficulty, able to fit them together nonetheless,
            strap them tightly in 3 directions with the rachetable straps, and I
            soaked the boxes inside and out for 2 weeks to swell the wood and
            seal the joints.

            The boxes warped even more after soaking and leaked like a sieve! I
            now have a triple lifetime supply of charred scrap white oak! I will
            cut them into pieces and use the charred chips and chunks to oak
            spirits stored in other type containers.

            The concept was great, but the execution was a miserable failure.
            Live and learn!

            Tar
            ps - anybody wanna buy some white oak???



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          • Brain Solenoid
            The Engineer in me says this is one of the reasons why the barrels are shaped the way they are...........the other being to facilitate moving them (by
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
              The Engineer in me says this is one of the reasons why the barrels
              are shaped the way they are...........the other being to facilitate
              moving them (by rolling). You idea sounded good to me at the time as
              well, Tar. Boxes are easier that barrels to stack and easier to make.

              If you look at the way a barrel is constructed, you'll notice it's
              already pre-loaded (pre-warped) and held in that sprung condition
              with the hoops. The staves are curved and beveled to force a tight
              fit over a curving contour in two direction (up / down and
              circumferentially). The hoops force this tight fit, and there isn't
              a straght piece in the whole bunch! Everything is force-wedged
              together with nowhere to warp to.

              Regards,
              BS


              > I charred the inside of them with a torch and my problems began.
              The
              > heat and drying from the charring warped the boards slightly. I
              was,
              > with considerable difficulty, able to fit them together
              nonetheless,
              > strap them tightly in 3 directions with the rachetable straps, and
              I
              > soaked the boxes inside and out for 2 weeks to swell the wood and
              > seal the joints.
              >
              > The boxes warped even more after soaking and leaked like a sieve!
              I
              > now have a triple lifetime supply of charred scrap white oak! I
              will
              > cut them into pieces and use the charred chips and chunks to oak
              > spirits stored in other type containers.
              >
              > The concept was great, but the execution was a miserable failure.
              > Live and learn!
              >
              > Tar
              > ps - anybody wanna buy some white oak???
            • Toni Smith
              Ok a quick question....had the timber been aged for 1 to 2 years before crafting (2 years is preferable)....if not then of course you would have ended up with
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
                Ok a quick question....had the timber been aged for 1 to 2 years before
                crafting (2 years is preferable)....if not then of course you would have
                ended up with warping due to the timber still being green...I know this
                well as my dad runs a sawmill and was an A+ student in woodwork at high
                school

                Toni Smith
                ICQ 166838134
                MSN tonimarie29@...

                I recently experimented with oak boxes and must report that Leigh is
                absolutely correct!
                I charred the inside of them with a torch and my problems began. The
                heat and drying from the charring warped the boards slightly. I was,
                with considerable difficulty, able to fit them together nonetheless,
                strap them tightly in 3 directions with the rachetable straps, and I
                soaked the boxes inside and out for 2 weeks to swell the wood and
                seal the joints.

                The boxes warped even more after soaking and leaked like a sieve! I
                now have a triple lifetime supply of charred scrap white oak! I will
                cut them into pieces and use the charred chips and chunks to oak
                spirits stored in other type containers.

                The concept was great, but the execution was a miserable failure.
                Live and learn!

                Tar
                ps - anybody wanna buy some white oak???

                ---
                Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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              • Toni Smith
                Yeah this is another very good point...but the aging of the timber used is also still very important Toni Smith ICQ 166838134 MSN
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
                  Yeah this is another very good point...but the aging of the timber used
                  is also still very important

                  Toni Smith
                  ICQ 166838134
                  MSN tonimarie29@...

                  The Engineer in me says this is one of the reasons why the barrels
                  are shaped the way they are...........the other being to facilitate
                  moving them (by rolling). You idea sounded good to me at the time as
                  well, Tar. Boxes are easier that barrels to stack and easier to make.

                  If you look at the way a barrel is constructed, you'll notice it's
                  already pre-loaded (pre-warped) and held in that sprung condition
                  with the hoops. The staves are curved and beveled to force a tight
                  fit over a curving contour in two direction (up / down and
                  circumferentially). The hoops force this tight fit, and there isn't
                  a straght piece in the whole bunch! Everything is force-wedged
                  together with nowhere to warp to.

                  Regards,
                  BS

                  ---
                  Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                  Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                  Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 30/01/2004
                • grayson_stewart66
                  I m an engineer also and was surprised to find the number of wooden pipes used in the early years. A few are seen at this link
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
                    I'm an engineer also and was surprised to find the number of wooden
                    pipes used in the early years. A few are seen at this link
                    http://www.sewerhistory.org/grfx/components/pipe-wood2.htm

                    Most are round and vary rarely was there ever a wooden conduit
                    formed in a "square". In a round structure the greatest stresses
                    are usually on the inner most face - the primary area we want a good
                    seal.

                    --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Toni Smith" <tonimarie@i...>
                    wrote:
                    > Yeah this is another very good point...but the aging of the timber
                    used
                    > is also still very important
                    >
                    > Toni Smith
                    > ICQ 166838134
                    > MSN tonimarie29@h...
                    >
                    > The Engineer in me says this is one of the reasons why the barrels
                    > are shaped the way they are...........the other being to
                    facilitate
                    > moving them (by rolling). You idea sounded good to me at the time
                    as
                    > well, Tar. Boxes are easier that barrels to stack and easier to
                    make.
                    >
                    > If you look at the way a barrel is constructed, you'll notice it's
                    > already pre-loaded (pre-warped) and held in that sprung condition
                    > with the hoops. The staves are curved and beveled to force a
                    tight
                    > fit over a curving contour in two direction (up / down and
                    > circumferentially). The hoops force this tight fit, and there
                    isn't
                    > a straght piece in the whole bunch! Everything is force-wedged
                    > together with nowhere to warp to.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > BS
                    >
                    > ---
                    > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                    > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                    > Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 30/01/2004
                  • Brain Solenoid
                    Wood Pipes...........must ve been real tastey water in the summer! Well...I ll bet their immune systems were stronger back then. Seattle had an extensive wood
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
                      Wood Pipes...........must've been real tastey water in the summer!
                      Well...I'll bet their immune systems were stronger back then.

                      Seattle had an extensive wood pipe network as well and had some real
                      issues with them during their big fire in June of 1889. The pipes
                      and the low tides allowed downtown Seattle to go up in flames since
                      many of the hydrant lines had decayed and there wasn't enough water
                      pressure to overcome the leaks. I'm told it became a real
                      controversy after the fire.

                      I'm always amazed at just how many things were made of wood before
                      the aluminum and steel industry became more affordable. Up until the
                      1940's, there were still breweries in the U.S. that were using wood
                      kegs in which to deliver beer. These kegs weren't chared, but must
                      have still imparted some kind of flavor to the beer, which was also
                      probably better because they didn't brew as much with those
                      abominations: corn and rice.

                      You get a lot of benefits from circular structure. One, there are no
                      corners, so there are no stress concentration regions of the pipe.
                      Second, because it is round, it sees all load, uniformaly over its
                      cross section, for the least amount of material.
                      However, I have gone to sushi bars and drank saki out of one of those
                      square "box-cups". Great times, when I can remember them!

                      Great to see there are others "of the trade" on-line!
                      PS - I would have thought the greatest load would be at the extreme
                      outer surface, where it not only takes the maximum bending loads (
                      Stress = [M*C]/I ) but also the burst pressure ( Stress = F/A ). If
                      a rigid pipe bend while pressurized it will rupture at the tensile
                      extreme surface. Right?

                      Regards, and don't take any wooden nickels!
                      BS


                      --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "grayson_stewart66"
                      <grayson_stewart66@y...> wrote:
                      > I'm an engineer also and was surprised to find the number of wooden
                      > pipes used in the early years. A few are seen at this link
                      > http://www.sewerhistory.org/grfx/components/pipe-wood2.htm
                      >
                      > Most are round and vary rarely was there ever a wooden conduit
                      > formed in a "square". In a round structure the greatest stresses
                      > are usually on the inner most face - the primary area we want a
                      good
                      > seal.
                    • Tarvus
                      ... before ... have ... this ... high ... Yes Toni, It was well aged wood. The place I bought it from specialized in rare woods and all were kiln dried and
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
                        --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Toni Smith" <tonimarie@i...>
                        wrote:
                        > Ok a quick question....had the timber been aged for 1 to 2 years
                        before
                        > crafting (2 years is preferable)....if not then of course you would
                        have
                        > ended up with warping due to the timber still being green...I know
                        this
                        > well as my dad runs a sawmill and was an A+ student in woodwork at
                        high
                        > school
                        >
                        > Toni Smith
                        > ICQ 166838134
                        > MSN tonimarie29@h...

                        Yes Toni,

                        It was well aged wood. The place I bought it from specialized in
                        rare woods and all were kiln dried and aged. This particular piece
                        was also selected from a considerable number of pieces for its grain
                        configuration and lack of warping in the warehouse.

                        The moisture from the water would probably have a greater effect on
                        warping the more aged the wood was since the aged wood would be
                        drier. I was surprised to see how much the heat caused warping too.

                        The basic point remains. Booze boxes don't work as well as barrels
                        do. In fact, they don't work at all. I wish I could report
                        otherwise.

                        Tar
                      • grayson_stewart66
                        ... summer! Always glad to see a fellow engineer. :-) Actually some stayed in service for a really long time believe it or not. ... no ... pipe. ... extreme
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 1, 2004
                          --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "Brain Solenoid"
                          <brain_solenoid@y...> wrote:
                          > Wood Pipes...........must've been real tastey water in the
                          summer!

                          Always glad to see a fellow engineer. :-)
                          Actually some stayed in service for a really long time believe it
                          or not.


                          > You get a lot of benefits from circular structure. One, there are
                          no
                          > corners, so there are no stress concentration regions of the
                          pipe.
                          > Second, because it is round, it sees all load, uniformaly over its
                          > cross section, for the least amount of material.
                          > PS - I would have thought the greatest load would be at the
                          extreme
                          > outer surface, where it not only takes the maximum bending loads (
                          > Stress = [M*C]/I ) but also the burst pressure ( Stress = F/A ).
                          If
                          > a rigid pipe bend while pressurized it will rupture at the tensile
                          > extreme surface. Right?

                          The outer surface would see the greatest stresses with internal
                          pressure or true bending stresses. However, barrels aren't designed
                          for internal stresses noted by the flat ends...and perhaps they are
                          tapered to help prevent "true" bending streses (from trial and error
                          I assume).

                          When seasoning a barrel, the barrel is both filled with water
                          and submereged so it will swell against the steel retaining hoops.
                          After filling with spirits, the wetted inner surface will remain
                          swelled an hopefully water (spirit) tight while the outer surface
                          will dry.

                          The few unused barrels I've seen have loose or floating steel
                          hoops that are driven tight against the greater diamter wood staves
                          before conditioning to create the constriction.

                          I would love to have a wooden barrel filled with my own
                          creation, but my product never lasts long enough to warrant the
                          expense. :-)



                          >
                          > Regards, and don't take any wooden nickels!
                          > BS
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In new_distillers@yahoogroups.com, "grayson_stewart66"
                          > <grayson_stewart66@y...> wrote:
                          > > I'm an engineer also and was surprised to find the number of
                          wooden
                          > > pipes used in the early years. A few are seen at this link
                          > > http://www.sewerhistory.org/grfx/components/pipe-wood2.htm
                          > >
                          > > Most are round and vary rarely was there ever a wooden conduit
                          > > formed in a "square". In a round structure the greatest
                          stresses
                          > > are usually on the inner most face - the primary area we want a
                          > good
                          > > seal.
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