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Bio-Fuel

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  • last2blast
    I know this is a little off subject, but I just read that the Senate here in the US is proposing a $0.12 increase in federal fuel tax over the next 2 years.
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 18, 2014
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      I know this is a little off subject, but I just read that the Senate here in the US is proposing a $0.12 increase in federal fuel tax over the next 2 years.  It might be a good time for us Hobby Distillers to also consider making our own bio-fuel.  All we have to do is to save our Methanol, Heads, and Tails to be used as bio-fuel.  We could save a lot of money burning bio fuel in a furnace rather than taxed heating oil.

      Robert
    • Douglas French
      That sounds like a really cool idea .  Can it be mixed in small percentages with diesel for a steam generator or gasoline for a car or truck? thanks,  
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 18, 2014
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        That sounds like a really cool idea . 
        Can it be mixed in small percentages with diesel for a steam generator or gasoline for a car or truck?
        thanks,
         
        Douglas French
        Caballeros, Inc./ Scorpion Mezcal sa de cv
        Oaxaca, Mexico
        Tel: 52-951-516-0654
        Destileria: 951-511-5701
        Cel: 951 508 1030
        www.scorpionmezcal.com
        www.oaxacanstuff.com
        Enviar factura o comprobante de pago a: scorpionfactura@...


        From: "last2blast@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 2:42 PM
        Subject: [new_distillers] Bio-Fuel

         
        I know this is a little off subject, but I just read that the Senate here in the US is proposing a $0.12 increase in federal fuel tax over the next 2 years.  It might be a good time for us Hobby Distillers to also consider making our own bio-fuel.  All we have to do is to save our Methanol, Heads, and Tails to be used as bio-fuel.  We could save a lot of money burning bio fuel in a furnace rather than taxed heating oil.

        Robert


      • Ric Cunningham
        to get a license for making bio fuel you have to pay the taxes just like any other fuel source. no getting around paying the tax man. On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 18, 2014
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          to get a license for making bio fuel you have to pay the taxes just like any other fuel source. no getting around paying the tax man.


          On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 3:42 PM, last2blast@... [new_distillers] <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
           

          I know this is a little off subject, but I just read that the Senate here in the US is proposing a $0.12 increase in federal fuel tax over the next 2 years.  It might be a good time for us Hobby Distillers to also consider making our own bio-fuel.  All we have to do is to save our Methanol, Heads, and Tails to be used as bio-fuel.  We could save a lot of money burning bio fuel in a furnace rather than taxed heating oil.

          Robert




          --
          US Navy - 100% on watch
        • Douglas French
          Would this biofuel work in small % to mix with our gas for our cars? =r with diesel for a steam generator? I am not in the USA. We have different tax
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 18, 2014
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            Would this biofuel work in small % to mix with our gas for our cars? =r with diesel for a steam generator? I am not in the USA. We have different tax requirements. But we do have taxes that we comply with.



            From: "Ric Cunningham wilypig@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
            To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 2:58 PM
            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Bio-Fuel

             
            to get a license for making bio fuel you have to pay the taxes just like any other fuel source. no getting around paying the tax man.


            On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 3:42 PM, last2blast@... [new_distillers] <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
             
            I know this is a little off subject, but I just read that the Senate here in the US is proposing a $0.12 increase in federal fuel tax over the next 2 years.  It might be a good time for us Hobby Distillers to also consider making our own bio-fuel.  All we have to do is to save our Methanol, Heads, and Tails to be used as bio-fuel.  We could save a lot of money burning bio fuel in a furnace rather than taxed heating oil.

            Robert



            --
            US Navy - 100% on watch


          • Alli Bugger
            I don t know that alcohol distilling is economically feasible on a small scale but I do it for 2 reasons. 1) I want to do my small part for the environment
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 18, 2014
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              I don't know that alcohol distilling is economically feasible on a small scale but I do it for 2 reasons. 1) I want to do my small part for the environment and 2) my still is registered as an AFP so the TTB cannot say I have an unregistered still.   

              Tom
              Hobby Distillers Association


              On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 3:58 PM, "Ric Cunningham wilypig@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




              to get a license for making bio fuel you have to pay the taxes just like any other fuel source. no getting around paying the tax man.


              On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 3:42 PM, last2blast@... [new_distillers] <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
               
              I know this is a little off subject, but I just read that the Senate here in the US is proposing a $0.12 increase in federal fuel tax over the next 2 years.  It might be a good time for us Hobby Distillers to also consider making our own bio-fuel.  All we have to do is to save our Methanol, Heads, and Tails to be used as bio-fuel.  We could save a lot of money burning bio fuel in a furnace rather than taxed heating oil.

              Robert



              --
              US Navy - 100% on watch




            • Paul
              Methanol, ethanol etc will not mix with oil fuels such as diesel. Sure, throw it in your gasoline tank. But if you seriously want to make bio-diesel, you re
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 18, 2014
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                Methanol, ethanol etc will not mix with oil fuels such as diesel. Sure, throw it in your gasoline tank. But if you seriously want to make bio-diesel, you're going to have to come up with a much better idea than trying to make it using foreshots, heads and tails. At this stage and what is being suggested is simply fantasy.

                Paul


                On Thursday, 19 June 2014 9:12 AM, "Douglas French scorpionmezcal@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                 
                Would this biofuel work in small % to mix with our gas for our cars? =r with diesel for a steam generator? I am not in the USA. We have different tax requirements. But we do have taxes that we comply with.



                From: "Ric Cunningham wilypig@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 2:58 PM
                Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Bio-Fuel

                 
                to get a license for making bio fuel you have to pay the taxes just like any other fuel source. no getting around paying the tax man.


                On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 3:42 PM, last2blast@... [new_distillers] <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                 
                I know this is a little off subject, but I just read that the Senate here in the US is proposing a $0.12 increase in federal fuel tax over the next 2 years.  It might be a good time for us Hobby Distillers to also consider making our own bio-fuel.  All we have to do is to save our Methanol, Heads, and Tails to be used as bio-fuel.  We could save a lot of money burning bio fuel in a furnace rather than taxed heating oil.

                Robert



                --
                US Navy - 100% on watch




              • Bob Glicksman
                Water and gasoline (or other oils) do not mix. Generally speaking, even azeotropic ethanol (96%) out of the still will not mix in small quantities with large
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 18, 2014
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                  Water and gasoline (or other oils) do not mix.  Generally speaking, even azeotropic ethanol (96%) out of the still will not mix in small quantities with large percentages of gasoline.  Rather, the ethanol/water will separate out into its own phase with the gasoline floating on top.  In order to get your ethanol to mix with gasoline, you have to further dehydrate it.  E10 (10% ethanol, 90% gasoline) requires less than 1% water (< 1/2% water in cold weather) in order to keep the ethanol and gasoline in a single phase.  Simple distillation cannot go above the azeotrope, so you need some other method to remove the remaining water (e.g. zeolites).  You also have to denature your ethanol if you take it offsite as a fuel (mixing in some gasoline does the trick as far as the feds are concerned).  

                  If you want to run high % ethanol fuel, the water becomes less of a problem, but you will likely experience some problems with the engine (or the engine diagnostics, at any rate) unless you have an FFV or perform some sort of engine conversion.  The topic of running your non-FFV on ethanol fuel is covered in my paper at:  http://www.liquidsunenergy.com/learning/ppt/ice.pdf.  Note that I know of only one conversion kit that is EPA certified in the US, and it is expensive and certified only for two powertrains.  So even if you get a TTB permit to make your own ethanol fuel, there could be legal problems in running a non-FFV on a high ethanol blend on public streets, particularly if your state has smog check requirements (which will catch that you are doing this -- with or without a conversion kit).

                  As a prior poster mentioned, making your own ethanol does not absolve you of paying fuel taxes.  It is also generally much more expensive to make your own ethanol than to buy E85 at the pump, even with all of the markups included.  You don't even have a chance of price competing with the huge industrial fuel ethanol suppliers unless you have a source of free feedstock.  The huge industrial guys buy corn for feedstock but make the price of the corn back (sometimes more) by selling the DDGS animal feed byproduct of making ethanol on a large scale.  The home brewer is unlikely to have a buyer for the DDGS residue from your distillation process.

                  Bob



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Douglas French scorpionmezcal@... [new_distillers] <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                  To: new_distillers <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wed, Jun 18, 2014 2:12 pm
                  Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Bio-Fuel

                   
                  Would this biofuel work in small % to mix with our gas for our cars? =r with diesel for a steam generator? I am not in the USA. We have different tax requirements. But we do have taxes that we comply with.



                  From: "Ric Cunningham wilypig@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                  To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 2:58 PM
                  Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Bio-Fuel

                   
                  to get a license for making bio fuel you have to pay the taxes just like any other fuel source. no getting around paying the tax man.


                  On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 3:42 PM, last2blast@... [new_distillers] <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                   
                  I know this is a little off subject, but I just read that the Senate here in the US is proposing a $0.12 increase in federal fuel tax over the next 2 years.  It might be a good time for us Hobby Distillers to also consider making our own bio-fuel.  All we have to do is to save our Methanol, Heads, and Tails to be used as bio-fuel.  We could save a lot of money burning bio fuel in a furnace rather than taxed heating oil.

                  Robert



                  --
                  US Navy - 100% on watch


                • Derek Hamlet
                  ... I m pretty sure the size of the still to produce any viable volume of fuel for an individual would have to be pretty big. Then consider the cost of
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 18, 2014
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                    At 02:56 PM 6/18/2014, you wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >Methanol, ethanol etc will not mix with oil fuels such as diesel.
                    >Sure, throw it in your gasoline tank. But if you seriously want to
                    >make bio-diesel, you're going to have to come up with a much better
                    >idea than trying to make it using foreshots, heads and tails. At
                    >this stage and what is being suggested is simply fantasy.

                    I'm pretty sure the size of the still to produce any viable volume of
                    fuel for an individual would have to be pretty big. Then consider
                    the cost of running the still (i.e. fermentable stuff, power etc.)
                    I cannot for the life of me figure out how to make it economically viable.

                    Making drinking spirits is economically viable because of the retail
                    costs of the stuff in stores, but fuel; that's a tough one. Without
                    all you good citizens of the USA paying taxes to fund the handouts by
                    government to the agrobusiness guys growing corn for ethanol, I
                    suspect that business wouldn't be viable either. Talk about a boondoggle.


                    Derek



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                  • RLB
                    Agreed that it will not work well in gasoline or diesel engine, but my thought was to burn methanol, some ethanol,  rubbing alcohol, and Butanol in a furnace
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 18, 2014
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                      Agreed that it will not work well in gasoline or diesel engine, but my thought was to burn methanol, some ethanol,  rubbing alcohol, and Butanol in a furnace combustion chamber, or using it in a small turbine engine to power an electric generator.  Just an idea of how to use these by products rather then dumping down the drain and damaging our environment.

                      Robert




                      From: "Paul sudokuhater-b@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                      To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 5:56 PM
                      Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Bio-Fuel

                       

                    • Douglas
                      Thank you Sent from my iPhone
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 18, 2014
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                        Thank you

                        Sent from my iPhone

                        On Jun 18, 2014, at 4:56 PM, "Paul sudokuhater-b@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                         

                        Methanol, ethanol etc will not mix with oil fuels such as diesel. Sure, throw it in your gasoline tank. But if you seriously want to make bio-diesel, you're going to have to come up with a much better idea than trying to make it using foreshots, heads and tails. At this stage and what is being suggested is simply fantasy.

                        Paul


                        On Thursday, 19 June 2014 9:12 AM, "Douglas French scorpionmezcal@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                         
                        Would this biofuel work in small % to mix with our gas for our cars? =r with diesel for a steam generator? I am not in the USA. We have different tax requirements. But we do have taxes that we comply with.



                        From: "Ric Cunningham wilypig@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                        To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 2:58 PM
                        Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Bio-Fuel

                         
                        to get a license for making bio fuel you have to pay the taxes just like any other fuel source. no getting around paying the tax man.


                        On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 3:42 PM, last2blast@... [new_distillers] <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                         
                        I know this is a little off subject, but I just read that the Senate here in the US is proposing a $0.12 increase in federal fuel tax over the next 2 years.  It might be a good time for us Hobby Distillers to also consider making our own bio-fuel.  All we have to do is to save our Methanol, Heads, and Tails to be used as bio-fuel.  We could save a lot of money burning bio fuel in a furnace rather than taxed heating oil.

                        Robert



                        --
                        US Navy - 100% on watch




                      • Alli Bugger
                        My permit says I can make up to 5000 gallons of alcohol fuel per year.  I am required to pay not taxes.  The only requirement is to complete a form at the
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jun 19, 2014
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                          My permit says I can make up to 5000 gallons of alcohol fuel per year.  I am required to pay not taxes.  The only requirement is to complete a form at the beginning of each year that says how many gallons of fuel were produced during the previous year and when. 


                          On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 8:47 PM, "Douglas scorpionmezcal@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




                          Thank you

                          Sent from my iPhone

                          On Jun 18, 2014, at 4:56 PM, "Paul sudokuhater-b@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                           
                          Methanol, ethanol etc will not mix with oil fuels such as diesel. Sure, throw it in your gasoline tank. But if you seriously want to make bio-diesel, you're going to have to come up with a much better idea than trying to make it using foreshots, heads and tails. At this stage and what is being suggested is simply fantasy.

                          Paul


                          On Thursday, 19 June 2014 9:12 AM, "Douglas French scorpionmezcal@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                           
                          Would this biofuel work in small % to mix with our gas for our cars? =r with diesel for a steam generator? I am not in the USA. We have different tax requirements. But we do have taxes that we comply with.


                          From: "Ric Cunningham wilypig@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                          To: new_distillers@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 2:58 PM
                          Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Bio-Fuel

                           
                          to get a license for making bio fuel you have to pay the taxes just like any other fuel source. no getting around paying the tax man.


                          On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 3:42 PM, last2blast@... [new_distillers] <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                           
                          I know this is a little off subject, but I just read that the Senate here in the US is proposing a $0.12 increase in federal fuel tax over the next 2 years.  It might be a good time for us Hobby Distillers to also consider making our own bio-fuel.  All we have to do is to save our Methanol, Heads, and Tails to be used as bio-fuel.  We could save a lot of money burning bio fuel in a furnace rather than taxed heating oil.

                          Robert



                          --
                          US Navy - 100% on watch








                        • RLB
                          Thank you for that info because it will become handy to know when I apply for my permit. Robert ________________________________ From: Alli Bugger
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jun 19, 2014
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                            Thank you for that info because it will become handy to know when I apply for my permit.

                            Robert


                            From: "Alli Bugger allibugger@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                            To: "new_distillers@yahoogroups.com" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 11:30 AM
                            Subject: Re: [new_distillers] Bio-Fuel

                             
                            My permit says I can make up to 5000 gallons of alcohol fuel per year.  I am required to pay not taxes.  The only requirement is to complete a form at the beginning of each year that says how many gallons of fuel were produced during the previous year and when. 


                            On Wednesday, June 18, 2014 8:47 PM, "Douglas scorpionmezcal@... [new_distillers]" <new_distillers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                             











                            .



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