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RE: [netlogo-users] modelling human behaviour

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  • Steiner, James
    This is a fun topic. Replies so far interpret appropriate to mean scientifically valid or capable of producing meaningful results. How about interpreting
    Message 1 of 16 , May 1, 2003
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      This is a fun topic.

      Replies so far interpret "appropriate" to mean "scientifically valid" or
      "capable of producing meaningful results."

      How about interpreting "appropriate" to mean "ethical," or "moral," or
      "socially responsible?"

      In other words: Is using agent based modeling to model human behavior an
      insult to the complexity of the human condition? Does equating humans to
      mindless, computer-controlled robots -- and the human mind to a set of
      deterministic equations -- diminish the value of human life?

      And for the sake of completeness: Is the use of agent-based modeling to
      model human behavior offensive to God? By making a mockery of His work, and
      by showing such arrogance as to presume the ability to unravel and
      understand His creation, are we not inviting His Wrath?

      (I have a feeling that questions like that get asked of every kind of
      scientific exploration, from anatomy to zoology.)

      Have fun,

      ~~James
    • Van Parunak
      Fear no thunderbolts. King Solomon wrote 3000 years ago, It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. The
      Message 2 of 16 , May 1, 2003
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        Fear no thunderbolts. King Solomon wrote 3000 years ago, "It is the glory
        of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a
        matter." The zeal for scientific investigation that drove the industrial
        revolution was motivated in large part by the faith of the investigators
        that it was worthwhile searching for pattern in the universe because God
        had put it there, and that seeking to understand it was a way of coming to
        know him and appreciate his work.



        At 10:43 AM 5/1/2003 -0400, you wrote:
        >...
        >
        >And for the sake of completeness: Is the use of agent-based modeling to
        >model human behavior offensive to God? By making a mockery of His work, and
        >by showing such arrogance as to presume the ability to unravel and
        >understand His creation, are we not inviting His Wrath?
        >...


        ----------
        Dr. H. Van Dyke Parunak, Chief Scientist, Altarum Institute
        van.parunak@... www.erim.org/~vparunak
        v: +1 734 302 4684 f: +1 734 302 4991
        Altarum
        3520 Green Court, Suite 300
        Ann Arbor, MI 48105-1570
      • Christopher Newman
        James-- As a philosopher, I agree with you about the hubris involved in modelling human behavior. HOWEVER, as a political scientist and historian, I gota
        Message 3 of 16 , May 1, 2003
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          James--
          As a philosopher, I agree with you about the hubris involved in
          "modelling" human behavior. HOWEVER, as a political scientist and historian,
          I gota tell you that our policy makers home in on a single causal factor and
          then make decisions that affect all of us based upon a belief in that single
          factor. I've already alluded to Lott's "More Guns, Less Crime" approach,
          this morning I had a panel in my 8am class analyzing Bush's approach to
          welfare reform (which seems to be marriage will solve all ills) and we can
          also think of GW's approach to revitalizing the economy (cut taxes on
          dividends.) I think the real value of modelling wearing my latter two hats
          is to set up models that give the single cause theorists everything they
          want in an artificial society and letting hings play out, usually to show
          the unintended consequences of the simplistic policy. Models would thus
          reaffirm the complexity and unpredictability of th huma condition in the
          face of those who begin entences with "If the government would just..."
          whether they be on the left or the right.
          Chris Newman


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Steiner, James
          To: 'netlogo-users@yahoogroups.com'
          Sent: 5/1/03 9:43 AM
          Subject: RE: [netlogo-users] modelling human behaviour

          This is a fun topic.

          Replies so far interpret "appropriate" to mean "scientifically valid" or
          "capable of producing meaningful results."

          How about interpreting "appropriate" to mean "ethical," or "moral," or
          "socially responsible?"

          In other words: Is using agent based modeling to model human behavior an
          insult to the complexity of the human condition? Does equating humans to
          mindless, computer-controlled robots -- and the human mind to a set of
          deterministic equations -- diminish the value of human life?

          And for the sake of completeness: Is the use of agent-based modeling to
          model human behavior offensive to God? By making a mockery of His work,
          and
          by showing such arrogance as to presume the ability to unravel and
          understand His creation, are we not inviting His Wrath?

          (I have a feeling that questions like that get asked of every kind of
          scientific exploration, from anatomy to zoology.)

          Have fun,

          ~~James


          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          netlogo-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Frances Coleman
          Are there archives of these postings? Frances Coleman
          Message 4 of 16 , May 1, 2003
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            Are there archives of these postings?
            Frances Coleman

            On Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 11:09 AM, Christopher Newman wrote:

            > James--
            > As a philosopher, I agree with you about the hubris involved in
            > "modelling" human behavior. HOWEVER, as a political scientist and
            > historian,
            > I gota tell you that our policy makers home in on a single causal
            > factor and
            > then make decisions that affect all of us based upon a belief in that
            > single
            > factor. I've already alluded to Lott's "More Guns, Less Crime"
            > approach,
            > this morning I had a panel in my 8am class analyzing Bush's approach to
            > welfare reform (which seems to be marriage will solve all ills) and we
            > can
            > also think of GW's approach to revitalizing the economy (cut taxes on
            > dividends.) I think the real value of modelling wearing my latter two
            > hats
            > is to set up models that give the single cause theorists everything
            > they
            > want in an artificial society and letting hings play out, usually to
            > show
            > the unintended consequences of the simplistic policy. Models would thus
            > reaffirm the complexity and unpredictability of th huma condition in
            > the
            > face of those who begin entences with "If the government would just..."
            > whether they be on the left or the right.
            > Chris Newman
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Steiner, James
            > To: 'netlogo-users@yahoogroups.com'
            > Sent: 5/1/03 9:43 AM
            > Subject: RE: [netlogo-users] modelling human behaviour
            >
            > This is a fun topic.
            >
            > Replies so far interpret "appropriate" to mean "scientifically valid"
            > or
            > "capable of producing meaningful results."
            >
            > How about interpreting "appropriate" to mean "ethical," or "moral," or
            > "socially responsible?"
            >
            > In other words: Is using agent based modeling to model human behavior
            > an
            > insult to the complexity of the human condition? Does equating humans
            > to
            > mindless, computer-controlled robots -- and the human mind to a set of
            > deterministic equations -- diminish the value of human life?
            >
            > And for the sake of completeness: Is the use of agent-based modeling to
            > model human behavior offensive to God? By making a mockery of His work,
            > and
            > by showing such arrogance as to presume the ability to unravel and
            > understand His creation, are we not inviting His Wrath?
            >
            > (I have a feeling that questions like that get asked of every kind of
            > scientific exploration, from anatomy to zoology.)
            >
            > Have fun,
            >
            > ~~James
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > netlogo-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > ---------------------~-->
            > Get A Free Psychic Reading!
            > Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
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            > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
            > ~->
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > netlogo-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • Dale Reed
            ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/netlogo-users/messages
            Message 5 of 16 , May 1, 2003
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              > Are there archives of these postings?

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/netlogo-users/messages
            • Michael Gizzi
              GO to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/netlogo-users/ and you can view all 537 messages since Seth started the group in January of 2002. You can also search all
              Message 6 of 16 , May 1, 2003
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                GO to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/netlogo-users/ and you can view all 537
                messages since Seth started the group in January of 2002.

                You can also search all of the messages.

                I am hoping to eventually cull out many of the programming tips that have
                appeared and put them into my NetLogo Learning Lab site. Its on the list of
                things to do anyway :)

                Mike

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Frances Coleman [mailto:fcoleman@...]
                > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 5:15 PM
                > To: netlogo-users@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Are there archives of these postings?
                > Frances Coleman
                >
                > On Thursday, May 1, 2003, at 11:09 AM, Christopher Newman wrote:
                >
                > > James--
                > > As a philosopher, I agree with you about the hubris involved in
                > > "modelling" human behavior. HOWEVER, as a political scientist and
                > > historian,
                > > I gota tell you that our policy makers home in on a single causal
                > > factor and
                > > then make decisions that affect all of us based upon a belief in that
                > > single
                > > factor. I've already alluded to Lott's "More Guns, Less Crime"
                > > approach,
                > > this morning I had a panel in my 8am class analyzing Bush's approach to
                > > welfare reform (which seems to be marriage will solve all ills) and we
                > > can
                > > also think of GW's approach to revitalizing the economy (cut taxes on
                > > dividends.) I think the real value of modelling wearing my latter two
                > > hats
                > > is to set up models that give the single cause theorists everything
                > > they
                > > want in an artificial society and letting hings play out, usually to
                > > show
                > > the unintended consequences of the simplistic policy. Models would thus
                > > reaffirm the complexity and unpredictability of th huma condition in
                > > the
                > > face of those who begin entences with "If the government would just..."
                > > whether they be on the left or the right.
                > > Chris Newman
                > >
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: Steiner, James
                > > To: 'netlogo-users@yahoogroups.com'
                > > Sent: 5/1/03 9:43 AM
                > > Subject: RE: [netlogo-users] modelling human behaviour
                > >
                > > This is a fun topic.
                > >
                > > Replies so far interpret "appropriate" to mean "scientifically valid"
                > > or
                > > "capable of producing meaningful results."
                > >
                > > How about interpreting "appropriate" to mean "ethical," or "moral," or
                > > "socially responsible?"
                > >
                > > In other words: Is using agent based modeling to model human behavior
                > > an
                > > insult to the complexity of the human condition? Does equating humans
                > > to
                > > mindless, computer-controlled robots -- and the human mind to a set of
                > > deterministic equations -- diminish the value of human life?
                > >
                > > And for the sake of completeness: Is the use of agent-based modeling to
                > > model human behavior offensive to God? By making a mockery of His work,
                > > and
                > > by showing such arrogance as to presume the ability to unravel and
                > > understand His creation, are we not inviting His Wrath?
                > >
                > > (I have a feeling that questions like that get asked of every kind of
                > > scientific exploration, from anatomy to zoology.)
                > >
                > > Have fun,
                > >
                > > ~~James
                > >
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > netlogo-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > > ---------------------~-->
                > > Get A Free Psychic Reading!
                > > Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions.
                > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/cjB9SD/od7FAA/uetFAA/C1XolB/TM
                > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                > > ~->
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > netlogo-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > netlogo-users-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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