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Re: Change the order/Got another

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  • David L. Ford
    I ve been continuing my chronological reading and found the war years (and post-war years) readings need to be updated. Unfortunately it s Monday after the
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 1, 2003
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      I've been continuing my chronological reading and found the war
      years (and post-war years) readings need to be updated.

      Unfortunately it's Monday after the Gorgegiving weekend and my
      brain isn't up to snuff....or, better, is made of snuff...

      But I think that the 'threesome' books that are mixed in with
      the Zeck trilogy need to be moved.

      My bantams (along with the horrendous typeset editing) does list
      copyright dates for each of the novellas that place them between
      each Zeck book.

      Plots in the threesomes also have references with ordering
      implications....specifically Help Wanted, Male.....and....umm
      the novella about the exploding cigar......

      Anyway, I forgot my notes so forgive me if I got the wrong ones
      from memory...but the threesome listed after The Second Confession
      should come before....that's all I can remember in my current state
      and I'll check my notes when I get home from work....sorry....
    • Lovin' Babe!
      ... Indeed. Right you are. In fact, over on the Wolfe List, when we were discussing Too Many Women, I posted the notes below concerning the chronology
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
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        "David L. Ford" wrote:
        >
        > I've been continuing my chronological reading and found the war
        > years (and post-war years) readings need to be updated.
        >
        > Unfortunately it's Monday after the Gorgegiving weekend and my
        > brain isn't up to snuff....or, better, is made of snuff...
        >
        > But I think that the 'threesome' books that are mixed in with
        > the Zeck trilogy need to be moved.

        Indeed. Right you are. In fact, over on the Wolfe List,
        when we were discussing Too Many Women, I posted the notes
        below concerning the chronology problem. One thing I didn't
        mention in that forum is how this chronology refutes the
        notion that Stout ceased to write during the war years and
        concentrated solely on the work of the writer's board. It
        was the book publication that ceased, not the writing or the
        magazine publication.

        A NOTE ON CHRONOLOGY

        This list discusses books in the order that they were
        published in book form and, for the most part, this does
        roughly follow the sequence of writing. That
        correspondence breaks down, however, in the postwar
        publications. For the purposes of watching Stout's
        development of characters and themes, it is important to
        keep in mind that several of the shorter works, which
        became more of a staple of Stout's output, though published
        in magazines during the years immediately following the
        war, did not appear in book form immediately. At the same
        time, novels ceased to appear in serialized magazine
        format. The delay in publishing the novellas in book form
        continues for obvious reasons throughout the rest of the
        corpus, creating little speed bumps along the way, but
        nowhere is it more pronounced that in the period between
        1941 and 1950, between Black Orchids and In the Best
        Families. The sequence of writing in this period is
        important not only in the transition between the "early"
        and "older" Archie, but also in the transformation of
        women's roles in the corpus:

        Title......................Set.In.........Magazine....Book
        Black Orchids..............Mar 1941.......Aug 1941....1942
        CITMD......................Aug 1941.......Apr 1942....1942
        Not Quite Dead Enough......Mar 1942.......Dec 1942....1944
        Booby Trap.................Aug 1943.......Aug 1944....1944
        Help Wanted, Male..........May 1944.......Aug 1945....1949
        Instead of Evidence........Oct 1945.......May 1946....1949
        Bullet for One.............Oct 1945.......Jul.1948....1950
        The Silent Speaker.........Mar-Apr 1946...NA..........1946
        Before I Die...............Oct 1946.......Apr 1947....1949
        Too Many Women.............Mar-Apr 1947...NA..........1947
        Man Alive..................Jun 1947.......Dec 1947....1950
        And Be A Villain...........Mar-Apr 1948...NA..........1948
        Omit Flowers...............Jul.1948.......Nov 1948....1950
        Door to Death..............Dec 1948.......Jun 1949....1950
        The Second Confession......Jun 1949.......NA..........1949
        The Gun With Wings.........Dec 1949.......Dec 1949....1950
        Disguise for Murder........Mar 1950.......Aug 1950....1950
        In the Best Families.......Apr-Sep 1950...NA..........1950

        --
        Lovin' Babe! aka Jessie
        O! Give Wolfe a home, so he won't have to roam...
        Just Say Pfui! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pfight/

        Bain's Mystery Books
        http://bainsmysterybooks.vstorefiction.com/
      • Allan Hinman
        David, I am also in the midst of rereading the corpus in chronological order and you are correct that the Trouble in Triplicate novellas need to be moved. All
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 2, 2003
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          David, I am also in the midst of rereading the corpus
          in chronological order and you are correct that the
          Trouble in Triplicate novellas need to be moved. All
          3 of them were actually written before any of the Zeck
          novels as follows:
          Before I Die was first in American Magazine in 1945,
          Help Wanted, Male appears in American Magazine in
          1946,
          Instead of Evidence also in American Magazine in 1947.
          They were first collected together in one volume by
          the Viking Press in February 1949 thus seeming to be
          written between And Be A Villain first published by
          Viking Press in September 1948 and The Second
          Confession first published by Viking Press in
          September 1949. The final Zeck novel In The Best
          Families was first published by Viking Press in
          September 1950.

          Just a final note to let everyone who contributes to
          this group that I have thoroughly enjoyed all of the
          correspondence since first signing on 3-31-2002.




          --- "David L. Ford" <david.ford@...> wrote:
          > I've been continuing my chronological reading and
          > found the war
          > years (and post-war years) readings need to be
          > updated.
          >
          > Unfortunately it's Monday after the Gorgegiving
          > weekend and my
          > brain isn't up to snuff....or, better, is made of
          > snuff...
          >
          > But I think that the 'threesome' books that are
          > mixed in with
          > the Zeck trilogy need to be moved.
          >
          > My bantams (along with the horrendous typeset
          > editing) does list
          > copyright dates for each of the novellas that place
          > them between
          > each Zeck book.
          >
          > Plots in the threesomes also have references with
          > ordering
          > implications....specifically Help Wanted,
          > Male.....and....umm
          > the novella about the exploding cigar......
          >
          > Anyway, I forgot my notes so forgive me if I got the
          > wrong ones
          > from memory...but the threesome listed after The
          > Second Confession
          > should come before....that's all I can remember in
          > my current state
          > and I'll check my notes when I get home from
          > work....sorry....
          >
          >


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        • paige_everhart
          ... Just a couple quibbles. Gun with Wings is set in Aug. 1949 (page one of the story says it s Aug. 14). Although Baring-Gould dates Bullet for One to 1945,
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 3, 2003
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            --- In nerowolfe@yahoogroups.com, "Lovin' Babe!" <entwold@a...> wrote:
            > Title......................Set.In.........Magazine....Book
            > Bullet for One.............Oct 1945.......Jul.1948....1950
            > The Gun With Wings.........Dec 1949.......Dec 1949....1950

            Just a couple quibbles. Gun with Wings is set in Aug. 1949 (page one
            of the story says it's Aug. 14).

            Although Baring-Gould dates Bullet for One to 1945, there's nothing
            concrete to base that on (such as "it was Tuesday, Oct. 16"), and
            some indication that it's later. Archie does say he's known Lily 7
            years, which would make it 1945 (Some Buried Caesar is set in 1938),
            but in the magazine version of Not Quite Dead Enough he inaccurately
            dates the length of his acquaintance with Lily too. Dan Augustine's
            chronology sets it in 1947, which seems more likely to me.

            The story was written in Nov. 1947 and published in July 1948. If
            it's 1945 it's happening very close to Instead of Evidence, which is
            definitely set in Oct. 1945 (and written that fall). Inst./Evid. is
            full of war references (especially the fact that Archie's only been
            out of the army for a week). In Bullet, although victim and suspects
            are industrial designers there is no reference to wartime industry,
            rationing, etc., and I am inclined to date it therefore to 1947, as
            most of Stout's stories are set about the time he wrote them.
          • entwold@att.net
            ... Well, I ll be. I won t say what I ll be, but I assure you that I will be it to the utmost. (I also think I know what Rumsfield knows, which worries me no
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 3, 2003
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              > Just a couple quibbles. Gun with Wings is set in Aug. 1949 (page one
              > of the story says it's Aug. 14).

              Well, I'll be. I won't say what I'll be, but I assure you that I will be it
              to the utmost. (I also think I know what Rumsfield knows, which worries me
              no end.)

              In any event, you are right, my listing of Gun with Wings contains a typo --
              it is definitely set in August. Mea culpa.

              As to the BfO question, I'm tempted to bow to your argument for 1947,
              especially since Dan Augustine is in your corner. I suspect my dating to '45
              came from the reference to the length of time he'd known Lily, which is
              probably not a good thing to do. Archie's references to length of
              acquaintance do work fairly well in the pre-War stories, but start to break
              down during and after as Stout was still struggling with whether or not to
              keep aging Archie. Later, of course, you can't trust any reference to how
              long Archie did anything or knew anyone and eventually Stout abandons any
              reference to specific numbers of years. Still, I'm not near my books right
              now and feel the need to make one last check before I bow to superior
              scholarship.

              I will say that I did just reread these stories in the order that I posted
              and didn't notice any bump in the read caused by dating BfO in 1945. At
              least nothing so glaring as reading HWM by the book publication date.

              --
              Lovin' Babe! aka Jessie
              O! Give Wolfe a home, so he won't have to roam
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pfight/
            • David L. Ford
              Very nice analyses all around. I ve got my chronological list, but it s by book and not story....I didn t catch any hiccups that would cause me to place a
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 4, 2003
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                Very nice analyses all around. I've got my chronological list, but it's by book and not story....I didn't catch any
                hiccups that would cause me to place a novel between novellas that were published (in a book) as a triple.

                Here's my resulting list - and, naturally, I didn't bring the list that had the copyright dates:

                Not Quite Dead Enough
                Troule in Triplicate - These get us through the war years with 'Instead of Evidence' having Archie's recent discharge.
                The Silent Speaker
                Too Many Women
                And Be A Villian
                Three Doors to Death
                The Second Confession
                Curtains for Three
                In the Best Families

                As soon as I finish Curtains for Three, I should be back on track - but have already decided to be guided by the copyright dates as
                well as the publishing dates.....
              • entwold@att.net
                ... book ... There is the ease issue when trying to do a chronological read. I ve been trying to do an strict, by-the-year-written read and it has involved
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 4, 2003
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                  > Very nice analyses all around. I've got my chronological list, but it's by
                  book
                  > and not story....I didn't catch any
                  > hiccups that would cause me to place a novel between novellas that were
                  > published (in a book) as a triple.
                  >
                  > Here's my resulting list

                  There is the "ease issue" when trying to do a chronological read. I've been
                  trying to do an strict, by-the-year-written read and it has involved a lot of
                  juggling of books in and out of the back pack. So, unless, like me, you're
                  neurotically attempting to reconstruct a sequence of events in the
                  development of character or writer, your list works very nicely.

                  In favor of the strict order method, I do want to put forth this bit of
                  trivia: At the beginning of Man Alive, Archie is feeling all warm and cuddly
                  toward Wolfe because Wolfe has just bought a new Cadillac sedan. If you read
                  the stories in strict order, you would read this immediately after Too Many
                  Women in which Wolfe and Archie have their "coolness" over the dual arguments
                  of noiseless typewriter and new car. If you remember, in TMW Wolfe caves as
                  a reward to Archie and withdraws his demand for a noiseless typewriter. At
                  the end of the novel, however, the argument over the new car (Wolfe doesn't
                  want to buy one until the next year) is still pending. TMW ends in April, MA
                  begins in June. So, it only took Archie two months to win the second
                  argument as well, and therefore, Archie's tolerant indulgence of Wolfe's
                  insults at the top of Man Alive is doubly understandable. I never would have
                  noticed this if I wasn't doing a strict chronological reading.

                  --
                  Lovin' Babe! aka Jessie
                  O! Give Wolfe a home, so he won't have to roam
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pfight/
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