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Reminder: November Book Discussion

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  • Lady Shelley
    The November Book Discussion is . . . Some Buried Caesar!!!!! Always a fan favorite. Discussion will start on November 10 (that s a Sunday). As always we have
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 1, 2002
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      The November Book Discussion is . . .

      Some Buried Caesar!!!!! Always a fan favorite.

      Discussion will start on November 10 (that's a Sunday).

      As always we have 2 and 1/2 rules in the discussions:

      1. Please put SBC in the subject line so folks who do not want to
      participate or be spoiled can avoid the threads.

      2. Play nice

      1/2. No spitting on the carpet.

      Lady Shelley
      ~~~~~~~~~
      It's what you do and not what you say
    • Miranda Beverly-Gill
      I was wondering where you have the book discussions. I d like to get involved in the one for November. Thanks. Lady Shelley
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 6, 2002
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        I was wondering where you have the book discussions. I'd like to get involved in the one for November. Thanks.

         Lady Shelley <ladyshelley@...> wrote:

        The November Book Discussion is . . .

        Some Buried Caesar!!!!!  Always a fan favorite.

        Discussion will start on November 10 (that's a Sunday).

        As always we have 2 and 1/2 rules in the discussions:

        1.  Please put SBC in the subject line so folks who do not want to
        participate or be spoiled can avoid the threads.

        2.  Play nice

        1/2.  No spitting on the carpet.

        Lady Shelley
        ~~~~~~~~~
        It's what you do and not what you say


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      • TOM BARRY
        One of my all-time favorites. I still LOL at some of the dialogue. Will try to participate if I have time.
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 6, 2002
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          One of my all-time favorites. I still LOL at some of
          the dialogue. Will try to participate if I have time.
          --- Miranda Beverly-Gill <mbeverlygill@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > I was wondering where you have the book discussions.
          > I'd like to get involved in the one for November.
          > Thanks.
          > Lady Shelley <ladyshelley@...> wrote:The
          > November Book Discussion is . . .
          >
          > Some Buried Caesar!!!!! Always a fan favorite.
          >
          > Discussion will start on November 10 (that's a
          > Sunday).
          >
          > As always we have 2 and 1/2 rules in the
          > discussions:
          >
          > 1. Please put SBC in the subject line so folks who
          > do not want to
          > participate or be spoiled can avoid the threads.
          >
          > 2. Play nice
          >
          > 1/2. No spitting on the carpet.
          >
          > Lady Shelley
          > ~~~~~~~~~
          > It's what you do and not what you say
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > nerowolfe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
          > Terms of Service.
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
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          > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
        • Lady Shelley
          Miranda asked: I was wondering where you have the book discussions. I d like to get involved in the one for November. Thanks. Discussions are held onlist!
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 6, 2002
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            Miranda asked:
            I was wondering where you have the book discussions. I'd like to get
            involved in the one for November. Thanks.

            Discussions are held onlist! Very simple, very easy. Discussion starts
            Nov 10, and any and all topics are welcome, just be sure to put SBC in
            your suject header so folks who want to avoid the discussion can.

            Lady Shelley
            Official Keeper of Blair's faith in his fellow man, and his ability to
            be an excellent teacher
            ~~~~~~~~~
            It's what you do and not what you say
          • Bob Byrd
            when you say onlist do you mean just posting messages to this newsgroup? For some reason I thought they took place during the Sunday chats. I missed the
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 6, 2002
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              Miranda asked:
              I was wondering where you have the book discussions. I'd like to get
              involved in the one for November. Thanks.

              Discussions are held onlist!  Very simple, very easy.  Discussion starts
              Nov 10, and any and all topics are welcome, just be sure to put SBC in
              your suject header so folks who want to avoid the discussion can.

              Lady Shelley
              Official Keeper of Blair's faith in his fellow man, and his ability to
              be an excellent teacher
              ~~~~~~~~~
              It's what you do and not what you say


              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              nerowolfe-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            • Lady Shelley
              ... newsgroup? For some reason I thought they took ... would like to make the next one. ... Well they can be in the chats as well, but I meant on list so
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 6, 2002
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                >when you say "onlist" do you mean just posting messages to this
                newsgroup? For some reason I thought they took
                >place during the Sunday chats. I missed the last book discussion but
                would like to make the next one.
                >

                Well they can be in the chats as well, but I meant on list so everyone
                has a chance to ring in with an opinion.


                Lady Shelley
                Official Keeper of Blair's faith in his fellow man, and his ability to
                be an excellent teacher
                ~~~~~~~~~
                It's what you do and not what you say
              • David McClelland
                The regular chats, held Saturday and Sunday at 2 pm Eastern are generally freeform unless a topic is posted. For Sunday s chat, and to serve as an appetizer
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 8, 2002
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                  The regular chats, held Saturday and Sunday at 2 pm Eastern are
                  generally freeform unless a topic is posted.

                  For Sunday's chat, and to serve as an appetizer for the more in-depth
                  November discussion, I suggest we kick Caesar around a little.

                  Points to ponder for Sunday-

                  Caesar seems to be on everyone's short list of favorites. What makes
                  it such a standout?

                  Do you view the murderer with any sense of compassion? Are your
                  sympathies to any degree reversed with regard to the murderer and
                  the first victim?

                  Consider La Rowan - not just the introduction of a colorful character
                  to aid in comic relief and as a romantic interest; her thread runs
                  throughout, even to playing a pivotal role in the backstory.
                  Could 'Caesar' have been done without her?
                • oneandonlypeephole
                  No, I don t think SBC could have been done successfully without Lily, even though some Wolfe fans don t care for the early Lily in this book and NQDE. Her
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 10, 2002
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                    No, I don't think SBC could have been done successfully without Lily,
                    even though some Wolfe fans don't care for the early "Lily" in this
                    book and NQDE. Her chief purposes in SBC are to bring out Archie's
                    character and to give him something to do while Wolfe does the
                    investigating; the legman's role would be very minimal in SBC and I
                    think that without Lily SBC, which many people find confusing in any
                    case, would be a bore. (I'm one of the fans who *does* like the early
                    Lily, BTW.)

                    Via Lily we learn, for example, that Archie likes to be in control in
                    a relationship. My husband suggests that it provides a contrast with
                    Archie's situation with Wolfe -- not that Archie is under Wolfe's
                    thumb, because he is not, but because since he both works for him and
                    resides in his home, he does have to live mostly by Wolfe's rules.

                    (P.S. Flum, I cross-posted this on the A&E Board. On the chance,
                    however remote, that A&E is reconsidering NW and has some little
                    assistant monitoring board activity as an indicator of interest, I
                    don't like to see that board go dormant; there's also the fact that
                    Michael Jaffe mentioned in "Scarlet Street" that he
                    considered A&E the only possible cable network for NW.)

                    --- In nerowolfe@y..., "David McClelland" <d.w.mc@m...> wrote:

                    >
                    > Consider La Rowan - not just the introduction of a colorful
                    character to aid in comic relief and as a romantic interest; her
                    thread runs throughout, even to playing a pivotal role in the
                    backstory. Could 'Caesar' have been done without her?
                  • scooter5203249
                    ... character ... Some Lily Quotes - Chapter 6 - I don t suppose I ll marry. Because marriage is really nothing but an economic arrangement, and I m lucky
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 10, 2002
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                      --- In nerowolfe@y..., "David McClelland" <d.w.mc@m...> wrote:


                      > Consider La Rowan - not just the introduction of a colorful
                      character
                      > to aid in comic relief and as a romantic interest;


                      Some Lily Quotes -

                      Chapter 6 - "I don't suppose I'll marry. Because marriage is really
                      nothing but an economic arrangement, and I'm lucky because I don't
                      have to let the economic part enter into it."

                      When I first read SBC this remark struck me as being an unusual
                      attitude for a women in the 1930's. I would think that women in that
                      era, even rich women, would want a husband, if only for a "trophy."
                      I also liked Lily from the start. She's independent, honest, and
                      admirable.

                      Chapter 6 - [Lily is said to be "unhealthy"] "Because I'm frank and
                      simple. Because I never offer anything I don't give, and I never
                      give anything and then expect to get paid for it."

                      This is Lily from the beginning to the end of the corpus."


                      Scooter
                    • Lori
                      I ve always liked the character of Lily Rowan, very strong and independent. She s perfect for Archie. She doesn t expect marriage and Archie s job makes
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 10, 2002
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                        I've always liked the character of Lily Rowan, very strong and
                        independent. She's perfect for Archie. She doesn't expect marriage
                        and Archie's job makes marriage impossible, so the reader can see
                        that aspect of Archie without having to worry about the complications
                        of a marriage. But her pursuit and jealous behavior in NQDE is odd,
                        very out of character for her, though I like to story.

                        Lori

                        --- In nerowolfe@y..., scooter5203249 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                        > --- In nerowolfe@y..., "David McClelland" <d.w.mc@m...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > > Consider La Rowan - not just the introduction of a colorful
                        > character
                        > > to aid in comic relief and as a romantic interest;
                        >
                        >
                        > Some Lily Quotes -
                        >
                        > Chapter 6 - "I don't suppose I'll marry. Because marriage is
                        really
                        > nothing but an economic arrangement, and I'm lucky because I don't
                        > have to let the economic part enter into it."
                        >
                        > When I first read SBC this remark struck me as being an unusual
                        > attitude for a women in the 1930's. I would think that women in
                        that
                        > era, even rich women, would want a husband, if only for
                        a "trophy."
                        > I also liked Lily from the start. She's independent, honest, and
                        > admirable.
                        >
                        > Chapter 6 - [Lily is said to be "unhealthy"] "Because I'm frank and
                        > simple. Because I never offer anything I don't give, and I never
                        > give anything and then expect to get paid for it."
                        >
                        > This is Lily from the beginning to the end of the corpus."
                        >
                        >
                        > Scooter
                      • Kathy
                        ... depth ... makes ... character ... I was unable to join the chat on Sunday, so I don t know if this last point was discussed at all. I have to say that I
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 11, 2002
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                          --- In nerowolfe@y..., "David McClelland" <d.w.mc@m...> wrote:
                          > The regular chats, held Saturday and Sunday at 2 pm Eastern are
                          > generally freeform unless a topic is posted.
                          >
                          > For Sunday's chat, and to serve as an appetizer for the more in-
                          depth
                          > November discussion, I suggest we kick Caesar around a little.
                          >
                          > Points to ponder for Sunday-
                          >
                          > Caesar seems to be on everyone's short list of favorites. What
                          makes
                          > it such a standout?
                          >
                          > Do you view the murderer with any sense of compassion? Are your
                          > sympathies to any degree reversed with regard to the murderer and
                          > the first victim?
                          >
                          > Consider La Rowan - not just the introduction of a colorful
                          character
                          > to aid in comic relief and as a romantic interest; her thread runs
                          > throughout, even to playing a pivotal role in the backstory.
                          > Could 'Caesar' have been done without her?

                          I was unable to join the chat on Sunday, so I don't know if this last
                          point was discussed at all. I have to say that I don't get this idea
                          of Lily playing a pivotal role (or any role, for that matter) in the
                          backstory. Could someone please enlighten me on this? As to whether
                          SBC could have been done without her, I think it possible. Her
                          contributions to furthering the plot could have gone to a woman who
                          did not reappear again in the series, possibly even to Caroline
                          Pratt; her ex-fiance was killed, so she might have been willing to
                          corroborate the story of Wolfe sketching the bull while strasnded on
                          the boulder. I think many of us would be quick to say, oh no, Lily
                          is essential because we know and love her from other stories instead
                          of just SBC, and that enriches the story for us, but is there really
                          anything she does that couldn't be worked another way? Perhaps a
                          woman who is only a passing fancy for Archie? Just out of curiosity,
                          is anyone aware of whether Stout inteded to make Lily a recurring
                          character when he wrote SBC, or did he decide to bring her back at
                          some later point? Part of what makes SBC one of my favorite Wolfe
                          stories is that I read many of the later stories before the earlier
                          ones (not too surprising as I first discovered the series in the
                          early '70s), so I was familiar with Lily and delighted to learn how
                          she and Archie first met. I was also glad to learn why Lily calls
                          Archie "Escamillo"; I was aware of Escamillo as a charcter in
                          _Carmen_, but I couldn't see what the connection was to Archie. Is
                          there anyone out there for whom SBC is their first and only contact
                          with Lily? I'd be interested if you love her as much as the rest of
                          us seem to with just that one exposure.

                          Sorry if I've rambled a bit, but I was trying for a post that might
                          generate some "energetic" response. Maybe I'm expecting to much, but
                          the last two books seem not to have produced much in the way of
                          discussion.
                        • Brooklyn Leather
                          Hello: First let me introduce myself. I m Brian and I live in NYC and have been reading Nero Wolfe mysteries since grammar school (the librarian insisted that
                          Message 12 of 12 , Nov 11, 2002
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                            Hello:

                            First let me introduce myself. I'm Brian and I live
                            in NYC and have been reading Nero Wolfe mysteries
                            since grammar school (the librarian insisted that they
                            were better than the Christie's I was reading).

                            As to the questions posed here are my thoughts:

                            > Points to ponder for Sunday - Caesar seems to be on
                            everyone's short list of favorites. What makes it
                            such a standout?

                            Nothing like being contrary in one's first post, but
                            here goes: SBC has never been a favorite of mine. I
                            always felt the murder was undermotivated and the
                            culprit fairly obvious. I prefer the later, darker
                            stories of the 50's.

                            > Do you view the murderer with any sense of
                            compassion? Are your sympathies to any degree
                            reversed with regard to the murderer and the first
                            victim?

                            I think that I take Wolfe's view that most of the
                            players in the drama are fools and behave that way. I
                            do not find them very sympathetic. The characters I
                            find more interesting, such as Nancy and Caroline, get
                            too little time on stage.

                            > Consider La Rowan - not just the introduction of a
                            colorful character to aid in comic relief and as a
                            romantic interest; her thread runs throughout, even to
                            playing a pivotal role in the backstory. Could
                            'Caesar' have been done without her?

                            I think the introduction of Lily Rowan is one of the
                            best parts of the story -- giving Archie an equal
                            sparring partner. I like her flippancy and refusal to
                            conform to gender norms. Is she essential? Yes in
                            that a family member from either side could not have
                            played that role in the deception. It would have been
                            unbelievable. But I do not believe that Lily had to
                            show up again. The way she was written she could have
                            been a great one shot.

                            Brian in Brooklyn

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